What "new info" did Rove give Fitz on Tues. that gave him "pause"...

[DeepModem Mom]

so that he decided not to indict Rove, as he was set to do?


....The biggest piece of unfinished business involves Rove. Fitzgerald appeared set to charge Rove with making false statements until the White House deputy chief of staff provided new information on Tuesday that gave the prosecutor what two people described as "pause."

It is unclear what information Rove turned over. It is also unclear if it will be enough to prevent a grand jury from indicting him in the weeks ahead. If he decides to seek charges against Rove, Fitzgerald would present the evidence to a new grand jury because the one that indicted Libby expired yesterday and its term cannot be extended....

WP: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102802306_pf.html

[rwenos]

1. Hard to Say, But Fitz Needs Libby to Finger Rove

As per a post I just uploaded to another thread, if I were Libby's lawyer I would be talking to Fitzgerald about a deal -- no jail time and/or transactional immunity for my client, in exchange for testifying against Rove.

[dutchdemocrat]

18. Libby

Libby is a ringleader in this and he deserves to spend time in jail. It's pretty clear that the sinister plan to out Plame was hatched in Cheney's office. Having said that, I do hope Rove gets indicted as well - just not by trading the guilt of Libby.

[two gun sid]

2. Rove cut a deal that will require him to wear a wire....

I can dream can't I?

[Neil Lisst]

3. It has to be evidence that helps nail Libby and implicate Cheney

Because Fitz already had what he needed to indict Libby.

[autorank]

4. It's a serious game of Bridge...

Fitz ... puts out Libby. Now Scooter is spending some time tonight thinking just what it would be like to be in a real Federal prison. Will he really get the $1.25 million fine. What does he have to trade.

I think Fitz is going for Cheney, the real power center. If he can get him, he'll probably get Rove on the way back.

This is the first time in 130 years a WH official of consequence has been indicted. What a record. You think Scooter will take the fall. I doubt it. He's the former anti-war Democrat who went the the dark side. Now he can go to the Fitz side and maybe lessen the blow.

Think about it Scooter. You either get a cellmate or your get solitary, not a pleasant prospect.

[rwenos]

7. Hope You're Right about Cheney, But . . .

I think Libby would probably simply go to jail before fingering Cheney. There will be payments to offshore accounts, assurances to Libby's wife and kids about college funds . . .

Cheney is the link between the Big Oil suits and the White House. He's a bigger fish than Libby's life and freedom are worth.

And just think . . . there are legions of Libbys out there, just waiting for a chance to fall on their swords for Cheney. Kinda like suicide bombers, eh? Only the reward isn't virgins in heaven, it's an endowment for the wife and kids.

This is a quiet evil, lurking in the shadows.

[IndyJones]

13. I don't see Rove falling on his sword for Cheney.

[rwenos]

16. Right, Rove Will Buck and Weave

And never go down without a jury verdict against him.

I thought Libby would fall on his sword. Too much money at stake, too many oilmen anxious to keep the gravy train coming.

Libby's wife and kids will be well provided for, that's my prediction, if the investigation gets anywhere NEAR Cheney.

[autorank]

23. Damn fine imagry! I think Libby is special. He was the 'chosen

one.' I think the tension is between the obvious incentives Libby has to keep quiet and the fears he may generate about prison. Look where Fitz put Miller http://alexandriava.gov/sheriff/detention.html

This is as nice as Libby will get. Wait util he sees a Federal prison. His crimes warrent a real lock up, no 'country club.' Ouch, think aobut it Scooter;)

[fearnobush]

5. Rove still on the hook.

"Fitzgerald refused to comment on Rove. A source close to Rove added, "There is still the chance that Mr. Rove could face indictment." Lawyers involved in the case said Fitzgerald is likely to put pressure on Libby to provide evidence against Rove or other potential targets."

[Maddy McCall]

8. Or on Rove to get Cheney.

It's going to be very interesting.

[Maddy McCall]

6. Not being nitpicky, but I don't think anyone has said that Rove is...

safe from ever being indicted. Whatever info he gave Fitz perhaps made him safe for awhile, but not permanently.

Whatever info he gave Fitz must have been truly pivotal--it puts Rove in a place that endangers the White House. "The night of the long knives" comes to mind.

Rove is going to save Rove, at least for a little while. If Rove is turning on someone, it must have been pretty huge, because it delayed his own indictment. Now, if he doesn't continue to cooperate with Fitz, he will find himself in the position that Scooter found himself today.

Rove will be a pariah to this administration. It's going to be interesting to watch the dynamics in public appearances, etc. from no on.

[rwenos]

9. Wouldn't it Take More for Bush to Fire Rove?

You're right about Rove not being off the hook -- that was the point of my prior posts and Rove being vulnerable to Libby's testimony.

But Bush KNOWS he's a rudderless idiot without Rove. Who's going to run the show if Rove's gone? Condi? Please . . .

[Maddy McCall]

11. Bush will have to decide whether he wants to keep Rove, along with whom

comes a certain, unshakable taint on the White House. As long as Rove is around, so is the whiff of scandal.

Or he will have to decide to let go of Rove, which, like you said, will leave Bush disabled for the rest of his term.

Bush had already picked a replacement for Rove, as of Thursday, in case Rove were indicted. Ed Gillespie, I think, was who he would have tapped.

[DeepModem Mom]

10. You use the word "pivotal." I'm wondering if you're right.

And I'm interested in the words "gave pause." In a subtle way, they seem very strong, describing exactly someone who is headed straight in one direction when something happens to make them stop and think. But I can't, for the life of me, figure out what it might be. I'm not sure I can envision Rove ever implicating Bush. Cheney, maybe. I think there've been rumors of WH people turning on each other.

Rove seems pretty damn cocky, though, as if he hasn't a worry in the world. Of course, maybe when you have no trace of a moral compass, and have gotten away with so much evil in your life, it's easy to fall into that attitude, and thumb your nose once again at the world.

[Maddy McCall]

12. I think Rove is putting up a strong front, just to save face....

He's trying to give appearances that he's not worried, and that Republican constituents can still believe in him. However, it comes across as a scared sort of cockiness.

Now, about "gave pause." Yes, that term, to me, translates as "astonished." Remember, Rove withheld whatever it was that "gave pause" to Fitzgerald through four different testimonies. And he only came through the day before he would have been indicted.

That, to me, says that Rove had a difficult decision to make: Either save his own ass or give up someone that he had protected heretofore.

Like you, I can't imagine that being Bush. I can, however, imagine it being Cheney.

We shall see. If I were Rove, I'd practice an exercise of humility. He's in no place to be thumbing his nose.

[The Judged]

17. Rove is virtually guaranteed a pardon. The entire regime owes him.

At this point, Rove would be the least likely of all thugs to flip.

He, especially, wouldn't dare turn in Cheney, who would have Rove suicided rather expediently.

Remember, Rove represents politics, while Cheney represents the military.

The Neo-cons are a militant group, while the Rove trove are a bunch of religious fanatics that he is able to manipulate to support his political agenda, which remains background noise for the Neo-cons who he is beholden to and whom have their own agenda.

Rather, Rove is the type who is willing to mock his opponents and to outsmart them.

To him, the victory is always attainable, and I wouldn't be surprised if he is playing chess against Fitzgerald in this matter.

However, I must admit that I believe Cheney can only win after losing first, in this case.

He will need to have his conviction reversed, because there is no way he will win in a trial, IMO.

This falls right into the new frontier for Republicans:

Controlling the appellate and Supreme Courts gives them the ultimate arbiter in criminal cases.

Gaining control over the Cheif Judgeships isn't hurting their cause either.

No matter whether they are convicted or not, they will always win on appeal.

Lastly, Rove did most of his best work outside of the WH, and I'm sure he can remain as potent a force behind the scenes as a hero for the Republicans, even in the face of a trial and convictions, though the trial is extremely unlikely.

Just my opinion, though.

[Maddy McCall]

19. But there's no guarantee that the trial would take place before....

the end of Bush's term. More than likely, our new Democratic Prez will be in office by the time these trials occur. Bush can't pardon someone who has not yet been found guilty.

[The Judged]

20. Elections: Electronic fraud ... Trial: never happens here; He'll plea.

[The Judged]

21. I tried to answer your question with the thread linked below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5215921

[AndyTiedye]

24. That's What Ford Did for Nixon

Bush can't pardon someone who has not yet been found guilty.

Yes, he can. That's what Ford did for Nixon. Bush** will probably pardon himself too.

The only justice for these people will be found in the Hague:

The Peace Palace

The International Criminal Court is made for people like them:


and so is the prison wing of the Peace Palace:


Better plan for a long stay, because they don't take pResidential pardons.

[sofa king]

22. A "pivotal" lie, perhaps?

There is one standard to which the Bush Administration can be counted upon to uphold: they never, ever, tell the truth.

So it stands to reason that lying may be their planned defense.

Scooter's lies appear to have strung the investigation out for 22 months. Now it's Karl's turn to hold things up as long as he can. So he shows up at the eleventh hour with a shaggy dog story designed to eat time and investigative resources.

And they'll keep lying, preferably to the end of the President's term, but if not, as long as possible.

But when jail time approaches for the first conspirator, the President will then pardon everyone involved. So long as Karl, Scooter, and everyone else protects the President until then, they're in the clear. They can trust the President to pardon them because the information they hold over him is so damaging that he cannot refuse. At the very worst, the President can then resign himself, amidst a cloud of erroneous testimony which cannot be easily used against him.

We may have the power to advance the demise of the Bush Administration as a whole, but any way you look at it, their bases are covered. They'll get off scot free, with all the loot they can carry.

[DeepModem Mom]

25. A lie is a good possibility, isn't it? Or a typical Rove trick...

devised to get himself this reprieve.

[IndyJones]

14. Wouldn't it be ironic if the guy who put this Admin in the WH was the guy

who brought it all down?

[Maddy McCall]

15. It would be sweet justice to me.

:D And ironic. :thumbsup: