Can't flip Libby if he knows he is getting a pardon.

[tableturner]

I think Bush and Cheney are knee deep in every aspect of the leak. Plus, there are related aspects, such as the lying and manipulation about the Iraq war, etc., that, if exposed, would end the Bush administration.

I think Libby is falling on his sword for the neo-con movement. By the time the trial's delays happen, along with appeals, he won't get into prison much before, and maybe not at all before, Bush is out of office. Bush could pardon Libby as he exits the presidency. That's exactly what his father did, pardoning his cohorts in crime to prevent them from testifying. People may yell, but what could anyone do if Libby were to be pardoned? Can't impeach a former president, and he has the constitutionally granted power to pardon Libby. From Bush's viewpoint, having people howl about an end of term pardon is much better than being kicked out of office and jailed.

One last thought: can't a presidential pardon, in some special circumstances, be cause for the indictment of a president? For example, a far-fetched point, for sure, but one that is illustrative: What if a president had associates ready to commit a murder as soon as they were to get the signal from the president. What if the signal were to be an issuance of a pardon? In other words, they would commit the murder upon hearing about a pardon, which might have nothing else to do with the murderers? I think a president could be arrested for murder under such a situation. Maybe if it can be shown that a pardon is an integral part of an obstruction of justice scheme, Bush could be indicted for that, even though he has the right to pardon.

Your thoughts.....

[flowomo]

1. so far as I know, presidential pardon power is absolute

[BattyDem]

2. Bush may have promised a pardon, but ...

would you trust him to keep his word? I certainly wouldn't!

To answer your question ... I believe Presidential pardon power is absolute. :-(

On edit: LOL .. flowomo beat me to it! I must learn to type faster. :P

[Dagaz]

3. Pardon on it's way

See Henry Cisneros

[kurth]

4. Bush could pardon himself

for every conceivable crime committed by him while in office. A happy ending for the whole gang - both himself and his murderers.

[liberalnurse]

5. He can and will loose his law license with a felony.

Presidential powers and pardons don't and can't go there.......The memory of the American public can't be vacated either.....I don't think a Esme's with a presidential Pardon on it will give much mileage.

It's not that big a deal.......kind of like a hollow chocolate bunny.

[Zen Democrat]

6. I disagree. I think Bush would kick Cheney to the curb before pardoning.

I hold out hope that Fitzgerald is running an investigation that will be rolling out indictments a piece at a time... thereby making the possibility of pardons less and less likely.

Remember, Nixon didn't pardon anyone in Watergate because he knew that he himself was in jeopardy of prosecution after leaving office. And don't forget that * hired a criminal attorney before talking to the prosecutor.

The last thing Bush wants to do is associate himself with the leakers.

Maybe Rove goes next week. Followed by Novak. Evidence links to a conspiracy masterminded by Cheney to "deny Wilson's civil rights". To survive, * has to have been completedly insulated ... and that means no pardons, no taint of collusion.

[MADem]

15. Novak is FINE--he is in absolutely NO JEOPARDY

He sold those fuckers down the river immediately. He knew it was either him or them, and he is an old man with brittle bones. He was nearing the end of the line anyway, he will probably retire soon and write a tell-all book, with a hefty advance, to see him the rest of the way in economic comfort.

[txindy]

7. Then Junior had better pardon Irving quickly

'Cause he'll have to testify under oath in Irving's trial, otherwise. The same goes for Dick. They've done everything they can to avoid testifying before a grand jury under oath. How will they get out of testifying in a trial?

Besides, Irving's just the means to an end. The first domino to fall, but certainly not the last. As each one falls, momentum and force are gained. They're ALL going down. That judge didn't redact eight pages over Irving Lewis Libby, Junior. He's a pissant. This is much bigger than that little bug.

[bunny planet]

10. Exactly.

[upi402]

8. What fresh hell may come their way

when B#$% is out there may be crumbs still under the table to be swept up...

[longship]

9. Repeat after me. "Pardons would be an abuse of power."

This White House is under investigation by a Special Prosecutor. The scope of the Presidential pardon is unlimited. However, it has never, ever been used by a sitting President to pardon crimes committed in his own White House. To do so would be such an egregious and flagrant abuse of the pardon that that President would deservedly reap the whirlwind.

[upi402]

11. I agree, but B*&^ is an arrogant baby-eater

...who would never bow to ethics, morals, or common sense.

[longship]

17. He'll be told that pardoning will end his presidency.

He will not pardon.

[kurth]

19. "I'm not the historian. I'm the guy making history."

- George W. Bush, interview with Time magazine.

Bush doesn't give a rat's ass about legacy, precedence, or history (whether it's our history or his own history). The asshole does whatever his evil heart desires.

[longship]

23. Well he can make history again.

By being the first president to be impeached and removed from office for abusing the presidential pardon.

[Zen Democrat]

12. Exactly. Even Nixon couldn't pardon Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Colson, et al.

[serryjw]

Everyone may want to read this........

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/012813.html

[kurth]

20. Good link - thanks!

[crickets]

26. Thank you!

/delurk

That's an excellent link. On that bright note, I'm going to bed. It's been an exhausting day.

It's a good tired, though.

[Guaranteed]

13. There will be no pardons. Bush is in deep enough shit as it is.

He pardons Scooter, he signs the death warrant of his administration.

The fact is that Bush HAS to put his faith in Scooter- but Scooter will betray him.

All these guys care about is themselves. They will turn on each other like nothing.

No WAY is Scooter going up against 30 years for these other clowns.



Reminds me of a line some comedian said once with regard to the $25M reward for Osama and his buddies turning him in (although we all know how that worked out)...paraphrased:

"25 million dollars? You know, he did disrespect me once in front of a lot of people...."

:P

[Guaranteed]

14. Besides- either way, my friend:

It's all good.

Pardon away, Chimpy. See what happens. :)

This is what is so great about the law. Every once in awhile, you get to see something like this happen, and the bad guys lose, and lose hard.

[MADem]

18. I'm with you--kiss the House and Senate goodbye.

And the WH in 08.

Scooter might try to hang in there till 08 and wait for his pardon, but if his criminal attorney cannot keep him out of jail, with continuances, delays, and appeals, he just may flip.

What's the statuate of limitations on these crimes, anyway? Once Monkey is done with the WH, he may have to head for Brazil or Saudi Arabia....

[demobabe]

16. Think of this scenario

Suppose the American public is sick of Republicans and decides to kick them all the curb, restoring Democratic control to the House and Senate, and then Bush is impeached...

Would Scooter still be pardoned?

[Guaranteed]

21. OOOOOOooooo snap!!!

There we go. That is THE best way to counter speculation.

NICE JOB.

[Marr]

22. I fully expect Bush to pardon Libby on his last day in office.

Why not? It's not like he's going to stay in politics, and it's not like he gives a shit about the "conservative movement". He made alot of cash for his fellow faux-aristocrats, and he can go back to falling off bikes, golfing, etc.

[speedoo]

24. What makes you think Libby would wait that long?

Libby could be convicted and in jail by next summer. Under your scenario, Scooter would be some bubba's bitch for 18 months waiting for the pardon.

Not sure scooter's butt could handle that.

[Marr]

25. I don't think he'd be convicted by next summer.

The case probably wouldn't even go to trial for 6 months or more, and who knows what sort of stunts they might pull to delay it. It could drag on for a long time after that.

Still, he could squeal to avoid even a (relatively) short prison sentence. I'd like to think so. I doubt that a grown man who calls himself "Scooter" is very well equipped for prison life.

You know what I wonder- if Bush is impeached, can he still issue a pardon? Say there are impeachment hearings, could he immediately issue Libby a pardon upon being impeached, or would that leave Libby with a (possible) 50 year sentence?

[crickets]

27. That assumes Bush will finish out his term.

I'm not so sure he will. I'm not so sure he'll be gone either. It depends on just how much fit hits the shan in the meantime.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newyawker99]

29. Hi BBerg1623!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast: