Can Someone Please Explain To Me Plato's Allegory Of The Cave

[DemocratSinceBirth]

and forms in simple laymans language?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[rusty charly]

2. the people in the cave

only see the shadows of activity on the cave walls

since that's all they see, they think that's reality

relates to thinking the image of something is the actual object, like religious icons

[logokopp]

3. Think: Matrix or Truman Show

Your reality is based on your experiences & what you know.

Check out this website:
http://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm

[Jack Rabbit]

19. The Truman Show is an excellent example

In fact, the conclusion of the film brought the allegory of the cave to my mind.

[newyawker99]

48. Hi logokopp!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Tikki]

4. If you have NEVER been exposed.....

to the TRUTH... you cannot recognize it...even, when you run into 'it'. Once you KNOW the TRUTH you will no longer accept the LIES you have been feed.

Plato suggested that we should NEVER let them (cave dwellers) KNOW the TRUTH because it is best for EVERYBODY(?) that they live their lives believing the LIES. To do, otherwise, would only create....unrest.

[hedda_foil]

7. And it's this interpretation that the Straussians have adopted.

They, of course, are the elite.

[izzie]

31. Leo Strauss?

Neo-cons go for this guy.

[Classical_Liberal]

32. Plato suggested many options and the neocons chose the dark

side.

[SpiralHawk]

5. What you see is what you see

But Manitou far surpasses this.

[GR]

6. This Is Similar To Korzybski's "The Map Is Not The Territory"

And his "Science and Sanity " discussion of General Semantics and how people have semantic reaction to words which are not accurate descriptions of reality.

[kodi]

41. or alan watts' "the menu is not the meal" when referring to zen buddhism

.

[KittyWampus]

49. Oh, I'd Forgotten Alan Watts

He was so accessible. Like an old, faithful friend. :)

[ElsewheresDaughter]

8. in a nutshell

In a nutshell, the allegory places a group of people in a dark cave. Here they have been from their childhood, having their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and only seeing what is directly in front of them. They are prevented from being able to turn their heads by the chains. They are facing away from the light of the cave's mouth, seeing only shadows on the wall before them. The shadows have been the only source of entertainment, learning and knowledge for the entire lifetime of the prisoners. They believe the shadows they see on the walls to be "reality", never actually seeing the objects that create those shadows.

Plato then asks the following questions: What would happen if one of these prisoners were offered freedom? Would that person dare to leave a regular routine and to go outside of a comfortable environment to seek out new realities, new truths and new knowledge? And if that step of freedom was chosen, and then experienced, what would be the responsibilities, and obligations, of that person to return to those still chained in the cave, and teach them about the new truths?

[Ivory_Tower]

11. Sounds like you're describing television.

Replace "shadows" with "big-screen TV" and re-read your post.

Plato's allegory takes on a whole new contemporary relevance to me when viewed this way.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

14. BINGO! read my sig line

[JohnyCanuck]

28. TV and propaganda

"The average person in the US watches about four hours of television each day. Over the course of a year, we see roughly twenty five thousand commercials, many of them produced by the world's highest-paid cognitive psychologists. And these heavily produced advertisements are not merely for products, but for a lifestyle based on a consumer mind-set. What they're doing, day in and day out, twenty-five thousand times a year, is hypnotizing us into seeing ourselves as consumers who want to be entertained rather than as citizens who want to be informed and engaged. We need to take back the airwaves as a sphere of mature conversation and dialogue about our common future."

Duane Elgin, "On Simplicity and Humanity's Future, IONS, Noetic Sciences Review, December 2002

The above quote was found in "Brainwashing America" by Dr. Norman Livergood, former Chair of the Department of Artifical Intelligence at the US Army War College.

Brainwashing America

[Ivory_Tower]

51. I just looked at that site

And went to the home page. One of the lead articles on that site is called "Plato's Contemporary Relevance" (!!).

So much for thinking that I came up with an original description. :)

[Jack Rabbit]

29. Let's take that a step further for the benefit of our friend

Plato's allegory was used to illustrate his theory of ideas (also called the theory of forms). The world of the prisoners in the cave was their everday world, so they interpreted reality through that experience. For them, shadows on the wall is reality. However, to the one prisoner who is allowed to leave the cave, reality becomes the world as most people experience it. The released prisoner returns to the cave and attempts to tell his fellow inmates about this higher reality. The other prisoners, who have never experienced anything beyond the shadows in the cave, do not readily understand what their favored fellow is saying.

The released prisoner is analogous to the true philosopher, who knows and understands a higher reality of which ordinary people are only vaguely aware. This is the world of abstract ideas or forms. What we call a cat in the everyday world is called such because it conforms to a universal idea of a cat. A philosopher is one with a better understanding of the idea as opposed to the concrete experience of the idea.

According to Plato, ideas are perfect and immutable; the concrete reality of the everyday world is corrupt and in a constant state of flux.

[TahitiNut]

9. It's a way of portraying the ephemeral of "Truth" or "reality".

Assume that mankind has limited sensory and conceptual capability and that 'Truth' is profound and limitless. We are, by habituation, incapable of either knowing or perceiving Truth directly. The cave is our conceptual context - how we see and experience the Universe. We sit below the mouth of the cave, facing the back wall. The workings of the Universe happen within and without the cave, only some passing in front of the mouth of the cave. When the light of Truth (outside of our direct experience) shines upon these events, shadows of these events pass over the back wall of the cave. We see these shadows, two-dimensional and colorless, overlapping one another. This is our "normal" experience.

We are chained, by custom and habituation, to our seats below the mouth of the cave. When some of us loosen these chains and climb painfully towards the mouth of the cave, their eyes are overwhelmed. They cannot look into the Sun of Truth but, with care, can see some of the events of the Universe whose shadows they're accustomed to watching. Upon return to the company of others, their ability to portray the color and dimensionality of that which the rest of us have only seen as shadows is limited by the common experience. (How does one describe color to another blind from birth?)

The honored place in philosophy of this analogy can be attributed to the multifaceted epistemological and sociological uses to which it can be applied. For example, when the Truth-seeker returns to the cave, his eyes are no longer accustomed to the relative darkness -- and so, from the perspective of those who stayed, he's 'blind'. How does this perception affect the willingness of others to go on the same quest? From a social perspective, of what benefit to the 'society of cave-dwellers' are the efforts of the truth-seeker if he seems disabled and incapable of communicating? How can a cave-dweller distinguish a blinded truth-seeker from one never able to see the even the shadows? How does the truth-seeker associate the shadows with the things seen outside the cave? (Is there 'dust' in the air of the cave by which the 'rays' of light are seen?) Lots and lots of good questions.


On edit: Consider constellations vs. astronomy vs. cosmology.

[bhunt70]

10. You all get A's

from this old philosophy major.

[TahitiNut]

15. Thanks! Only about 12 credit hours from the Jesuits ...

... infected me in college over 40 years ago. I chose then to be a Math major. Today, I'd probably prefer Philosophy. I still haven't figured out whether I've only recently learned to look at shadows or merely more complex hallucinations.

[KittyWampus]

50. The Cave Analogy Explains How Occultists "See"

For example, when the Truth-seeker returns to the cave, his eyes are no longer accustomed to the relative darkness -- and so, from the perspective of those who stayed, he's 'blind'.

How can one communicate therefore with those as yet still in darkness when one has seen Larger Realities?

The answer is Analogy, Allegory and Symbolism.

Materialism is a false Foundation.

Profound Note for those who are interested in the Occult:

The following statement by TahitiNut also describes how light enters our eyes towards the back of our heads, in Kabbala we are working not just on altering and expanding our Thought patterns but on our "physical" body" and what it can experience as well.

"We sit below the mouth of the cave, facing the back wall. The workings of the Universe happen within and without the cave, only some passing in front of the mouth of the cave. When the light of Truth (outside of our direct experience) shines upon these events, shadows of these events pass over the back wall of the cave. We see these shadows, two-dimensional and colorless, overlapping one another."

[salmonhorse]

12. People are Sheeple ~

And 'leaders' understand this. Ready, willing & clearly able to be manipulated they therefore are by images cast upon; not even per se by the media, but cast upon a media at its symbolic base = screen, paper, stone...cave wall, etc.

Watch The Birdie!

By manipulating image/message, 'leaders' are able to define your access to your own salvation if that is their intent. Why would they do this?

By denying you your own will you are; and if not you then certain others, may in time be more likely to submit to their's ~

In a Democracy often less than 51% will suffice. As such, and after all such manipulation of image/message cast before the eyes of a flock of sheeple willing to peer at none but a cave wall...'leaders' will 'lead'.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/5mysteries_universes_020205-1.html

[izzie]

33. Is this the same as being taught that WW1 was war to end all wars?

Now we believe all war are to end all wars. it is atill repeated and belieled even to day with this War, when we know fron History that it does not work?

[salmonhorse]

53. Ee-yup ~

There is a God; there is no God; all Muslims are hateful; Jews drink the blood of Muslim children; man never walked on the moon; the Holocaust never occured; we are not spirit filled and even if so only filled with what someone else has defined spirit to be and such but yes...

It has been a never-ending labor foisted upon unvigilant humanity ~

:hi:

My sense is that we are only begun to be set free when we understand the depth of these manipulation.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

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[FlaGranny]

16. Why

the nasty post?

[screaming_meme]

18. Because The Cave is something someone should read

FOR THEMSELVES instead of others telling them what it means. All teenagers should read it. I should be something everyone reads and realizes for themselves. To hear someone say "Tell me what it means so i dont have to read it of think for myself" pisses me off.

[charlie]

23. So you're positive he didnt' read it?

Or ponder it? Why is that?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. Sheeesh

I read Plato's Republic in Humanities 101...

I have also read Rousseau

Burke

Mill

Marx

Locke

Marcuse

Bentham

and a host of other political philosophers........

Amazingly enough I find they all have interesting and positive things to say though some of their theories are mutually exclusive.....

Some are just more straight forward than others... I was thinking of "forms" again because Maureen Dowd was writing about "forms", Rummy, and the Iraqi quagmire.... It was hilarious....

Thanks to my fellow posters for explaining it to me again....

on edit- I went to work out.... I guess I missed the little poisoned missive....

Peace03

Brian

[Nlighten1]

39. If this is the case then we wouldn't need colleges

or schools. There is nothing wrong with asking for help or someone else's opinion.

[Selwynn]

44. LOL There is not book called "The Cave" so.. what have you been reading?

:D

[ElsewheresDaughter]

17. who pissed in your cornflakes this morning?....wow ugly!

[Classical_Liberal]

20. He doesn't have to read Alan Blooms version

please. The neocons are in favor of keeping people in their degraded condition. Screamin Meme you know this place isn't republican friendly, indeed if you are one you don't belong here.

[screaming_meme]

22. Please keep politics out of scholarship

Any classics scholar will tell Bloom's translation is the best,, and that Bloom's essay at the end is quite elucidating for those who have not devoted their lives to the study of The Republic. Dont bring that neocon Straussian partisan shit into serious things.

[Classical_Liberal]

24. Bloom never kept the politics out of scholarship as you

well know. It is an indoctrination book for neocons.

[TahitiNut]

30. Discuss 'Republic' without discussing anything "political"?

That's an interesting notion. I wonder how it could be done. :shrug:

[rucky]

38. Actually it was the public school crack that offended...

and sorta tipped your hand.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. I Made It All The Way To Post Grad Studies In Poli Sci And

I can honestly say I had maybe two or three conservative professors but I went to college and grad school in the late 70's, early 80's .... Neo-conservatism wasn't in vogue then... The conservative professors were just garden variety limited government Republicans... The majority were garden variety liberals, prolly slighlty to the right of alot of folks on this board... I can honestly say the minority were radicals and by radicals I mean those who advocate root or fundamental change....

Any way, contrary to what the right thinks, all my professors, right, left, and center encouraged me to develop my own world view......

And I read a editorial by Strauss's daughter in the NYT.... She wrote the neo-cons are extrapolating from her father's teachings ideas he never advocated....

[TahitiNut]

26. Interesting reaction to a (possibly) Socratic question.

:eyes:

[Jack Rabbit]

36. Maybe we can start by asking:

What is the political?

[Classical_Liberal]

21. It is Socrates's "Allegory of the Cave"

We learn of this through Plato. If you read anything by a neocon like Allan Bloom keep in mind these are the people who want to keep people enslaved in the cave.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

25. thank you...an interesting debate on NPR last week about this

you are correct

[screaming_meme]

27. Whatever

Then tell whatsher face that the cave is her under the media domination of FoxNews and that she is breaking away into the light that is Democraticunderground.com. Whatever serves your ends, whatever encompasseses your limited scope of consciousness.

[Classical_Liberal]

34. The cave is Fox News and the rest of the spin machine

that lied us into this war, whith a great deal of help from the students of Bloom and Straus. Those who want to keep the people in ignorance are the ones serving their own ends. This war was not in Americas interest. I think you are projecting. By the way the eyes of the public are slowly adjusting to the light.

[morebunk]

35. This says it all. Read it and weep!

http://www.wujs.org.il/activist/features/campaigns/communication_styles_for_hasbara.shtml

[ElsewheresDaughter]

37. yup and point scoring is used extensively on Fox

[Selwynn]

46. It is Plato's interpretation of socrates, thus Plato's allegory

[kodi]

40. dude, plato was talking about "perception is reality"

a great thinker, but way too rational for actual human experience.

[Selwynn]

43. All it means is this:

Plato believed that everything we oberve in the material world is not its truest "form" but simply a "projection" or a representation of his higher, truest form. For every objective "shadow" representation of a chair here in the world there is the one true form of The Chair or of ultimate chairness.

[CWebster]

45. People would rather kill the messenger

than have their illusions shattered.

People bound in a cave witness the reflections of forms on the wall. If one were released and discovered the real world outside the cave and returned to tell the others that their perceptions were only shadows, they would rather kill the bearer of the truth rather than accept the possibility.

[goodhue]

52. the truth is out there

The shadows cast are our experience. The true ideals are outside and our reality is but a dim projection. Thinking people strive to understand the ideal forms that lie outside our experience. Those who articulate the ideals beyond experience may have a hard sell.