URGENT - CALL THESE POLITICIANS PUSHING FOR FORCED VACCINES !!!

[pola]

:nuke


Urgent CLG Action!!

List of Senators pushing for Senate Bill 1873
Write and Call now --by Pamela

Here is the list of politicians pushing for us to face forced vaccines and forced drugging with untested/experimental drugs and vaccines giving freedom from liability to drug companies. Contact them ALL. Keep this list of these traitors for your voting records. They ALL need to go! This bill is called "The Biodefense and Pandemic Vaccine and Drug Development Act of 2005" You will find the wording under Senate Bill 1873 .

God Be with us all.
Pamela


REPUBLICANS
Gregg, Judd (R - NH)
393 Senate Russell Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
http://gregg.senate.gov/sitepages/contact.cfm

Frist, William (R - TN)
509 Hart Senate Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
http://frist.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=AboutSenatorFrist.ContactForm

Enzi, Mike (R - WY)
379A Senate Russell Office Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
http://enzi.senate.gov/email.htm

Burr Richard (R-NC)
217 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
http://burr.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Home

Isakson Johnny (R- GA)
120 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
[phone]
Fax: [phone]
http://isakson.senate.gov/contact.cfm

Alexander, Lamar (R-TN)
302 Senate Hart Office Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
http://alexander.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Home

Bond, Christopher (R - MO)
274 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
Fax [phone]
http://bond.senate.gov/contact/contactme.cfm

Roberts, Pat (R - KS)
109 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
Fax [phone]
http://roberts.senate.gov/e-mail_pat.html

Ensign, John (R - NV)
356 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
Fax [phone]
http://ensign.senate.gov/forms/email_form.cfm


DeWine, Mike (R - OH)
140 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
Fax [phone]
http://dewine.senate.gov/


DEMOCRATS
Kennedy, Edward - (D - MA)
317 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
http://kennedy.senate.gov/index_high.html

Dodd, Christopher (D - CT)
448 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone [phone]
Fax [phone]
http://dodd.senate.gov/webmail/form-opinion.html

Harkin, Tom (D - IA)
731 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone [phone]
Fax [phone]
http://harkin.senate.gov/contact/contact.cfm

Mikulski, Barbara (D - MD)
503 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
Fax [phone]
http://mikulski.senate.gov/contactme/mailform.html

Bingaman, Jeff (D - NM)
703 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone:[phone]
Fax [phone]
[e-mail]

Murray, Patty (D - WA)
173 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
http://murray.senate.gov/email/index.cfm

Reed, Jack (D - RI)
728 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone:[phone]
Fax [phone]
http://reed.senate.gov/form-opinion.htm

Clinton, Hillary (D - NY)
476 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
D.C. Fax [phone]
NY Fax [phone]
http://clinton.senate.gov/contact/webform.cfm?subj=issu

20 October 2005

*****
Congress Set to Pass Law Eliminating Liability For Vaccine Injuries 19 Oct 2005 The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) is calling the "Biodefense and Pandemic Vaccine and Drug Development Act of 2005" (S. 1873), which passed out of the U.S. Senate HELP Committee one day after it was introduced "a drug company stockholder's dream and a consumer's worst nightmare." ...The bill establishes the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Agency (BARDA), as the single point of authority within the government for the advanced research and development of drugs and vaccines in response to bioterrorism and natural disease outbreaks such as the flu. BARDA will operate in secret, exempt from the Freedom of Information Act and the Federal Advisory Committee Act, insuring that no evidence of injuries or deaths caused by drugs and vaccines labeled as "countermeasures" will become public.

[kestrel91316]

1. In the event of a national emergency due to a H5N1 flu pandemic

I'm afraid I have to support these measures. Public health policy MATTERS. Why should people be placed at increased risk of death by a few self-centered know-nothings in their midst?

"Herd" health rules apply to humans too. There is nothing magical or special about our species, and wishful thinking never kept infectious disease at bay.

I support science. I oppose pseudoscience.

[progressivebydesign]

3. A tetanus shot can kill me... as can a smallpox vaccine..

Are you saying that I should be forced to have any shots that GEORGE BUSH believes I should have? Or that the drug companies should say I have? Without knowing my medical history? Bullshit.

[kestrel91316]

9. Nope. Public health doctors should have the say.

They can formulate policy as to who gets a health exemption. By vaccinating everybody we possibly can (following guidelines), those who CANNOT be vaccinated for various reasons will be protected. The virus can't propagate through the population if a certain vaccination rate is achieved.

If YOU can't be vaccinated, you better pray that a large percentage of other folks are. And you will owe us a debt of gratitude for saving YOUR bacon.

[mzmolly]

107. "Public Health Doctors" would likely disagree - as they do today.

Further, there isn't specific information as to who might need the health exemption you speak of. Drug companies don't have a clear way to determine who may die from a vaccine, or who may suffer any long term complications instead. Thus the need to exempt drug companies from liability - as this bill would accomplish.

"This proposed legislation, like the power and money grab by federal health officials and industry in the Homeland Security Act of 2002 and the Project Bioshield Act of 2004, is an unconstitutional attempt by some in Congress to give a taxpayer-funded handout to pharmaceutical companies for drugs and vaccines the government can force all citizens to use while absolving everyone connected from any responsibility for injuries and deaths which occur. It means that, if an American is injured by an experimental flu or anthrax vaccine he or she is mandated to take, that citizen will be banned from exercising the Constitutional right to a jury trial even if it is revealed that the vaccine maker engaged in criminal fraud and negligence in the manufacture of the vaccine."

[shenmue]

5. Exactly

Well said.

:applause:

:thumbsup:

:hi:

[mikefromwichita]

7. Given the untrustworthy nature of Government..................

Citizens should feel free to tell their agents to bugger off.

[kestrel91316]

10. So you think doctors who work in PUBLIC HEALTH are just

evil shills for the drug companies, or Bushbots??? WTF????

You WANT the public health community to have the power to require vaccinations. Trust me on this one. It won't be WH staff making these decisions. The medical professionals will be calling the shots.

I've got my credentials. Veterinarians are considered part of our public health system. Plus I have a degree in microbiology with countless hours of coursework in virology, immunology, epidemiology, and pathology.

[mikefromwichita]

43. Sorry, I have found the average Doc........

to be no more trustwirthy than abyoneekse with a product to peddle. Consider the connection between mercury in childhood immunizatioms and autism as just one example. The way anti-depressants are hawked like cabbages are another. If you are so unpresuasive you need men with guns to enforce your will you need to be kept in check.

[beam me up scottie]

45. There is no connection between vaccines and autism.

I think you've been swallowing the snake oil.

[Rainscents]

109. Yes there is connection!!! Japan, China and all Europian contries baned

all Murcury in the vacines!!!

[Marie26]

118. Vaccines & Autism

Here's an article about the alleged link between vaccines & autism. According to this article, the vast majority of studies have shown there's no such link. http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2065.htm

[Rainscents]

192. My girl friend, her grand kids came down with Autism two weeks after

the vaccinated! Don't tell me there isn't link between them!

Both of her grand kids were fine and normal until after they had been vaccinated!

[SidDithers]

194. My kids got vaccines, and two weeks later...

they didn't get rubella. It was amazing.

We're also keeping our fingers crossed on polio, diptheria and tetnus.

Sid

[mzmolly]

196. It is amazing ...

... considering outbreaks of disease have occurred in highly vaccinated populations:

http://www.google.com.ar/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2004-45,RNWE:en&q=outbreak+in+highly+vaccinated+population

Your reply was harsh and unnecessary. One should not have to choose between autism and measles.

[SidDithers]

200. Autism or measles? That's the choice?

I choose....ummm....neither.

"Results During 2 986 654 person-years, we identified 440 autism cases and 787 cases of other autistic-spectrum disorders. The risk of autism and other autistic-spectrum disorders did not differ significantly between children vaccinated with thimerosal-containing vaccine and children vaccinated with thimerosal-free vaccine"

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/290/13/1763

More fun with google:
Rubella Eliminated in the United States

50th Anniversary of the First Polio Vaccine
"Polio was eliminated in the U.S. because protecting the public's health was perceived as a simple necessity, and every effort was made to see that the vaccine would be freely distributed and polio would be eradicated."

etc..

My point was that anecdotes, while interesting (or not), have no value in evaluating the efficacy of vaccination programs.

Sid

[mzmolly]

212. The MMR shot does not contain thimerosal.

However there is another side to the equation. And it's a shame that people have such blind faith in the federal government that they won't press for transparency thus bringing about better products.

"In its report of October 1, 2001, the IOM's Immunization Safety Review Committee concluded that the evidence was inadequate to either accept or reject a causal relationship between thimerosal exposure from childhood vaccines and the neurodevelopmental disorders of autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), and speech or language delay. Additional studies were needed to establish or reject a causal relationship. The Committee did conclude that the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines could be associated with neurodevelopmental disorders was biologically plausible."

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/7395411?rnd=1127933882328&has-player=true&version=6.0.12.1212

"In fact, the government has proved to be far more adept at handling the damage than at protecting children's health. The CDC paid the Institute of Medicine to conduct a new study to whitewash the risks of thimerosal, ordering researchers to "rule out" the chemical's link to autism. It withheld Verstraeten's findings, even though they had been slated for immediate publication, and told other scientists that his original data had been "lost" and could not be replicated. And to thwart the Freedom of Information Act, it handed its giant database of vaccine records over to a private company, declaring it off-limits to researchers. By the time Verstraeten finally published his study in 2003, he had gone to work for GlaxoSmithKline and reworked his data to bury the link between thimerosal and autism.

Vaccine manufacturers had already begun to phase thimerosal out of injections given to American infants -- but they continued to sell off their mercury-based supplies of vaccines until last year. The CDC and FDA gave them a hand, buying up the tainted vaccines for export to developing countries and allowing drug companies to continue using the preservative in some American vaccines -- including several pediatric flu shots as well as tetanus boosters routinely given to eleven-year-olds.

The drug companies are also getting help from powerful lawmakers in Washington. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, who has received $873,000 in contributions from the pharmaceutical industry, has been working to immunize vaccine makers from liability in 4,200 lawsuits that have been filed by the parents of injured children. On five separate occasions, Frist has tried to seal all of the government's vaccine-related documents -- including the Simpsonwood transcripts -- and shield Eli Lilly, the developer of thimerosal, from subpoenas. In 2002, the day after Frist quietly slipped a rider known as the "Eli Lilly Protection Act" into a homeland security bill, the company contributed $10,000 to his campaign and bought 5,000 copies of his book on bioterrorism. The measure was repealed by Congress in 2003 -- but earlier this year, Frist slipped another provision into an anti-terrorism bill that would deny compensation to children suffering from vaccine-related brain disorders. "The lawsuits are of such magnitude that they could put vaccine producers out of business and limit our capacity to deal with a biological attack by terrorists," says Dean Rosen, health policy adviser to Frist.

Even many conservatives are shocked by the government's effort to cover up the dangers of thimerosal. Rep. Dan Burton, a Republican from Indiana, oversaw a three-year investigation of thimerosal after his grandson was diagnosed with autism. "Thimerosal used as a preservative in vaccines is directly related to the autism epidemic," his House Government Reform Committee concluded in its final report. "This epidemic in all probability may have been prevented or curtailed had the FDA not been asleep at the switch regarding a lack of safety data regarding injected thimerosal, a known neurotoxin." The FDA and other public-health agencies failed to act, the committee added, out of "institutional malfeasance for self protection" and "misplaced protectionism of the pharmaceutical industry."

What a pity that so many refuse to open their mind to the possibility that vaccines may have a positive and a negative impact on our health. It is by admitting the possibility that we make vaccination safer for every human being.

[beam me up scottie]

219. You get your information from the Rolling Stone?

And you insult us?

[mzmolly]

232. You apparently missed many other links, and the noted author RFK Jr.?

Reporters have uncovered many a scandal, provided they have an open mind and are willing to take an honest look.

I don't recall insulting anyone. I am sorry if I have come across in rude manner.

[beam me up scottie]

233. Kennedy is a politician and he was incredibly stupid to go on

record about something he knows nothing about.

He gave false hope to a lot of parents because, at best, he let his emotions cloud his judgment, or at worst, he wanted to bolster his own image as someone who fights for families.

He was condemned by scientists all over the world for that stunt and many people think much less of him now because of it.



Look, I understand why this is so important and frustrating and I commend you for doing your own research instead of blindly believing what you're told.

You're light years ahead of most people in that department.

And I hope they find out what causes autism soon, but some scientists, like you said and I agree, are unethical and many of them are using this opportunity to further their careers.

The trick is to figure out which ones are truly unbiased and that is a full time job by itself.

I know someone who knows much more about the current studies and I'm sure he knows how to verify these leads.
I'll see if he can give me links to his sources.

[mzmolly]

235. Thanks.

I prefer to disagree on this heated subject respectfully and I appreciate that you are willing.

[beam me up scottie]

236. Same here.

You listen and I try to.

That's what the difference is.

Those of us that want to know, listen.

[beam me up scottie]

195. Kids don't suddenly "come down" with autism !!!

Dear gawd.

Have you ever read anything at all about autism?

[Rainscents]

259. How do you know??? Uh, kids accidently come down with Autism on it's own?

I think NOT! I truly believe there is link between Vaccination and Autism... not every child gets Autism from vaccination, like smoking, some people gets cancer when smoking for long times and there's others, who never gets cancer even thou they smoked all their life.

[beam me up scottie]

261. Did you read my post? It's not the sniffles.

They don't go to bed one night and wake up with autism the next morning.

And I'm not about to discuss autism with a person who thinks kids come down with it two weeks after being vaccinated.

If you want to learn more about developmental disabilities, try these websites.


http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/dd/ddautism.htm

http://www.autism.org/contents.html

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/autism.cfm

http://www.naar.org/

[AngryAmish]

198. correlation v. causation

I got a new wallet about a year ago. I have not been attacked by tigers since. Is my new wallet preventing tiger attacks?

[uppityperson]

211. what about gerbils?

If it protects against a sudden attack of gerbils, then it really does!

[nashbridges]

204. Autism isn't rapid onset

You've got it or you don't, and it usually takes months to diagnose properly.

It's not a cold. Perhaps they were diagnosed soon after the vaccines? Because if they were, they had it long before the shots.

Two weeks...sheesh.

[beam me up scottie]

129. That is not a connection.

An article from Left Brain/Right Brain reprinted from New Scientist has some excellent information on this:

http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/index.php?s=autism+epidemic&search_send=Go%21&paged=4

[mzmolly]

197. There are many articles and opinions on this matter.

Have you read this article?

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0616-31.htm

Olmsted scoured the Amish of Lancaster County, Penn., who refuse to immunize their infants. Given the national rate of autism, Olmsted calculated that there should be 130 autistics among the Amish. He found only four. One had been exposed to high levels of mercury from a power plant. The other three -- including one child adopted from outside the Amish community -- had received their vaccines.

At the state level, many officials have also conducted in-depth reviews of thimerosal. While the Institute of Medicine was busy whitewashing the risks, the Iowa Legislature was carefully combing through all of the available scientific and biological data. "After three years of review, I became convinced there was sufficient credible research to show a link between mercury and the increased incidences in autism," says state Sen. Ken Veenstra, a Republican who oversaw the investigation. "The fact that Iowa's 700 percent increase in autism began in the 1990s, right after more and more vaccines were added to the children's vaccine schedules, is solid evidence alone." Last year, Iowa became the first state to ban mercury in vaccines, followed by California. Similar bans are now under consideration in 32 other states.

[nashbridges]

205. It's NOT solid evidence

Any more than the release of "Rain Man" in 1988 caused a spike in Autism diagnoses the next year, even though that spike is there. What happened is there was more awareness about the disease, and so more people thought to test for it.

Really, 30 years ago people would describe some kids as "ain't right." Now they are autistic, or learning disabled, or they have ADD.

Just because you've got something to attribute behavior to doesn't mean a vaccine is causing it. Tests for autism are more robust now. The DIAGNOSIS of autism is growing, but no one has definitively proven a link between vaccines and autism. If someone had, then we'd know why the 99.9999999 percent of all other kids who get a vaccine don't become autistic.

[mzmolly]

206. Scientists debate whether or not there is solid evidence.

It's amazing how many zealots we have for big pharma right here at DU.
Autism is more than "not right" it's debilitating in many cases.

[beam me up scottie]

209. Actually, scientists don't.

They rely on research and peer review.

To date, there is still no conclusive evidence of a correlation.

And accusing us of being in league with "big pharma" because you disagree with us is not fair.

[mzmolly]

216. Really, note the list of scientists here:

http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/1stvacconf.htm

for starters.

Many scientists understand all to well that the science surrounding drug approval is bought, paid for and riddled with conflicts of interest.

[beam me up scottie]

218. Um, that was over 8 years ago and it was

sponsored by the NVIC.

The concerns voiced there are the reason for research studies.

And again, there have been none indicating a correlation.

[mzmolly]

222. Sorry the CDC didn't fund the gathering, but the scientists who were

present are still scientists. Further their concerns are still valid.

Also, it is false to say no research studies have found a correlation between vaccines and harm.

Here is a short list:

http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/thimstudys.htm

Oh, and the CDC does not tell the truth, by the way:

Although toxicity data are lacking for ethylmercury, it is currently assumed that methylmercury guidelines are appropriate to use in this situation. Even though there was no evidence of possible harm caused by ethylmercury exposure from immunizations, the United States Public Health Service agencies, including NIH, FDA, HRSA, and CDC took action, working collaboratively with the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Academy of Family Physicians.

Contrast that statment with this one:

"The federal officials and industry representatives had assembled to discuss a disturbing new study that raised alarming questions about the safety of a host of common childhood vaccines administered to infants and young children. According to a CDC epidemiologist named Tom Verstraeten, who had analyzed the agency's massive database containing the medical records of 100,000 children, a mercury-based preservative in the vaccines -- thimerosal -- appeared to be responsible for a dramatic increase in autism and a host of other neurological disorders among children. "I was actually stunned by what I saw," Verstraeten told those assembled at Simpsonwood, citing the staggering number of earlier studies that indicate a link between thimerosal and speech delays, attention-deficit disorder, hyperactivity and autism. Since 1991, when the CDC and the FDA had recommended that three additional vaccines laced with the preservative be given to extremely young infants -- in one case, within hours of birth -- the estimated number of cases of autism had increased fifteenfold, from one in every 2,500 children to one in 166 children."

More: http://www.vaccineawareness.org/IllinoisIssues/SimpsonwoodExcerpts.htm

[beam me up scottie]

226. Doesn't look like it proves vaccines are linked to autism.

Keep trying, I can wait.
I've been through this before.

The red herring about the CDC stinks.

[mzmolly]

229. Here is a meeting funded by the CDC. Proof of safety is what we should

require.

http://www.vaccineawareness.org/IllinoisIssues/SimpsonwoodExcerpts.htm

I think I linked this too late in my previous post.

Shouldn't we demand vaccines are safe before giving them to kids rather then waiting until people become ill and say "prove it."

I'm not attempting to prove anything to you, but I will give you some food for thought:

You claim to be writing an article, but you are very closed minded in your quest for knowledge. You have an agenda, and refuse to think beyond that, it seems.

From a CDC meeting in 2000 obtained via the Freedom of Information Act:

“There is a very limited pharmacokinetic data concerning ethylmercury. There is very limited data on its blood levels. There is no data on its excretion. It is recognized to both cross placenta and the blood-brain barrier.”

“The data on its toxicity, ethylmercury, is sparse. It is primarily recognized as a cause of hypersensitivity. Acutely, it can cause neurologic and renal toxicity, including death, from overdose…”

...

“It is sort of interesting that when I first came to the CDC as a NIS officer a year ago only, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do, but one of the things I knew I didn’t want to do was studies that had to do with toxicology or environmental health. Because I thought it was too much confounding and it’s very hard to prove anything in those studies. Not it turns out that other people also thought that this study was not the right thing to do, so what I will present to you is the study that nobody thought we should do.”

Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 40: “…we have found statistically significant relationships between the exposure and outcomes for these different exposures and outcomes. First, for two months of age, an unspecified developmental delay, which has its own specific ICD9 code. Exposure at three months of age, Tics. Exposure at six months of age, an attention deficit disorder. Exposure at one, three and six months of age, language and speech delays which are two separate ICD9 codes. Exposures at one, three and six months of age, the entire category of neurodevelopmental delays, which includes all of these plus a number of other disorders.”

Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 42: “But for one thing that is for sure, there is certainly an underascertainment of all of these because some of the children are just not old enough to be diagnosed. So the crude incidence rates are probably much lower that what you would expect because the cohort is still very young.”

More at the link above.

[beam me up scottie]

231. "Closed minded" ?

Has it occurred to you that I might have read this before?

Once I've reviewed the information and found nothing to confirm a link between vaccines and autism (an opinion shared by scientists around the world) I require new evidence to make me change my mind.

There are scientists who are still trying to prove that Bigfoot exists, homeopathy works and that the soul can be measured at the time of death.

I would also require evidence from all of them before changing my mind about those issues.

[mzmolly]

234. Well I'll give Tom Verstraeten, M.D.

presently employed by Glaxo-Welcome vaccine company, a bit of credence on this matter.

Along with Dr. Glover Dr. "…(thimerosal) Causing learning disabilities and behavioral disorders. ADD is a tremendous problem in our society and I think it is one that we should be very concerned about."

And Dr. Johnson. " I do not believe the diagnoses justifies compensation in the Vaccine Compensation Program at this point. I deal with causality, it seems pretty clear to me that the data are not sufficient one way or the other. My gut feeling? It worries me enough. Forgive this personal comment, but I got called out a eight o'clock for an emergency call and my daughter-in-law delivered a son by C-section. Our first male in the line of the next generation, and I do not want that grandson to get a Thimerosal containing vaccine until we know better what is going on."

And Dr. Weil. "The rise in the frequency of neurobehavioral disorders whether it is ascertainment or real, is not too bad. It is much too graphic. We don't see that kind of genetic change in 30 years."

And Dr. Brendt."If an allegation was made that a child's neurobehavioral findings were caused by Thimerosal containing vaccines, you could readily find junk scientist who would support the claim with "a reasonable degree of certainty". But you will not find a scientist with any integrity who would say the reverse with the data that is available. ... So we are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits if they were initiated and I am concerned."

And so on.

http://www.vaccineawareness.org/IllinoisIssues/SimpsonwoodExcerpts.htm

I don't know how anyone can read the minutes from this meeting and dismiss concerns about vaccine safety. We should require proof that drugs are safe (in the short and long term) before mandating that infants receive them.

These scientists/professionals were invited to a meeting to discuss vaccine concerns - by the CDC. Unfortunately, they did not want this to be on the public record.

I am sorry if I come across as caustic at times.

Peace

[beam me up scottie]

239. How many vaccines contain thimerosal now?

[mzmolly]

241. I'll actually quote the CDC on that.

Substantial progress has been made in the effort to reduce thimerosal exposure from vaccines. Today, with the exception of some flu vaccines, none of the vaccines used in the U.S. to protect preschool aged children against 12 infectious diseases contain thimerosal as a preservative. The vaccines with trace amount of thimerosal licensed to date contain less than 0.5 micrograms of mercury per dose, that is, a given dose of vaccine contains less than 1 part per million.

Events that contributed to accomplishing this goal include the licensure of a thimerosal free Hepatitis B Vaccine (Recombinant) manufactured by Merck and Company in August 1999. FDA licensed another hepatitis B vaccine with only trace amounts of thimerosal, manufactured by GlaxoSmithKline in March 2000. A supplement for a new formulation of Aventis Pasteur's DTaP Vaccine with only a trace amount of thimerosal was approved in March 2001. Additionally, Wyeth-Lederle Vaccines and Pediatrics now only markets a single-dose, thimerosal-free formulation of its Haemophilus b (Hib) Conjugate Vaccine in the U.S. Thus, two hepatitis B vaccines are thimerosal free, four Hib vaccines are thimerosal free, and two DTaP vaccines are thimerosal free.

Prior to the recent initiative to reduce or eliminate thimerosal from childhood vaccines, the maximum cumulative exposure to mercury via routine childhood vaccinations during the first six months of life was 187.5 micrograms. With the newly formulated vaccines, the maximum cumulative exposure during the first six months of life will now be less than three micrograms of mercury; this represents a greater than 98 percent reduction in the amount of mercury a child would receive from vaccines in the first six months of life.

However it is my understanding that it is not against policy to use up existing lots of vaccines, so if I were considering a vaccine that contained mercury in recent years I'd make sure it was a batch that did not contain thimerosal.

[beam me up scottie]

Exactly.

That is your right as a parent and you would be making an informed decision.

If my kids were being vaccinated, I would do the same thing.

Unfortunately, many parents aren't like you and are refusing to have their children vaccinated because of all the hype and hysteria.

Those are the people that make me angry.

[mzmolly]

248. Frankly, my child had one vaccine inutero and possibly the Hep B.

After careful consideration we've opted out of any more. However, I will never say never, and I will continue to monitor various disease statistics along with progress on making safer vaccines.

I weigh our vaccine decision on a fairly regular basis, and knowing what I know, I am very comfortable supporting parents in their choice to vaccinate - or not. I am a firm believer that parents need to make an educated decision on this matter, and those who vaccinate or not are at times, remiss in doing so.

As I said I'm pro vaccine-choice. I am not anti-science, there is a difference. ;)

[beam me up scottie]

250. It depends.

When I lived near Philly, several children died because of one religious sect that refused to vaccinate their children.

The children who belonged to the sect were grade school age but home schooled.

However, several infants also died.

The babies' parents weren't part of the sect, they just happened to be in the wrong place when the unvaccinated children were allowed out in public.

They died from measles.

IMO, the parents who refused to have their kids vaccinated had no right to risk the lives of others.

The stupidity of it still pisses me off to this day.

[mzmolly]

251. I found some info on that.

Beginning in October, 1990, a large measles outbreak involving predominantly unvaccinated preschool age children occurred in Philadelphia. By June, 1991, 938 measles cases had been reported to the Philadelphia Health Department. In addition to these cases, 486 cases and 6 measles-associated deaths occurred between November 4, 1990, and March 24, 1991, among members of 2 Philadelphia church groups that do not accept vaccination. We identified measles cases and collected information on symptoms and potential risk factors for complications. Telephone interviews were conducted to collect demographic and clinical information on measles cases in church member households. We identified 486 measles cases among 892 mostly unvaccinated church members. Age-specific attack rates were highest among children 1 to 4 years of age (94%) and 5 to 14 years of age (91%). Five (83%) of the 6 deaths occurred in females, 3 of whom had underlying illnesses. The overall case-fatality rate was 1.2%. The case-fatality rate was 2% for females, 0.4% for males (P = 0.22), 1.7% for primary cases and 0.7% for secondary household cases (P = 0.67). Only one of the children who died had received medical care. Measles spread rapidly in this group, sparing few susceptible individuals. Lack of medical care and underlying disease appear to have contributed to the high case-fatality rate in the church communities.

This is very sad, however these people refused medical treatment period. Also, half of the 6 that died were otherwise ill. It seems odd to me that we dismiss outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations but talk about outbreaks among the "unvaccinated" for years afterward.

For example: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=measles+outbreak+highly+vaccinated+population&btnG=Google+Search

Measles outbreaks can and have occurred in highly vaccinated populations, and measles doesn't generally lead to mass death in highly developed nations. On a personal note, my husband was fully vaxed for measles and contracted it anyway. And on a more personal note, I had the MMR jab while pregnant and "some" researchers link this very procedure to Tourette Syndrome + which my child suffers from. I'll never know if the vaccine was a trigger, and I haven't spent much time on that personally. But, I don't think we can have a one size fits all mentality about vaccination until we have actual unbiased information.

I'm out.

[beam me up scottie]

254. The reason I remember it is because the parents could

have prevented the deaths of those children.

And the parents of the infants never had the chance to decide whether or not their kids would get vaccinated.

Vaccinations have prevented tremendous suffering and millions of deaths around the world.

Even though they are not always 100% effective, questioning their overall effectiveness is a form of denial.

The parents who deny their value should take a course in history.

[mzmolly]

255. The parents denied their children medical care - period.

One who denies the importance of advances in medicine over recent decades should take a course in history.

As for me, I initially followed vaccination instructions and got the MMR jab postpartum, pregnancy is now considered a contradiction:

"Measles-mumps rubella (MMR) vaccine and its
component vaccines should not be administered to
women known to be pregnant. Because a risk to the
fetus from administration of these live virus vaccines
cannot be excluded for theoretical reasons, women
should be counseled to avoid becoming pregnant for 28
days after vaccination with measles or mumps vaccines
or MMR or other rubella-containing vaccines."

Uhm, whoops. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5049a5.htm

Edited to add, I'M OUT FOR THE NIGHT.

Peace and - night. :boring:

[beam me up scottie]

256. Oy.

And more than 25% of the pregnant women in my state smoke throughout their pregnancy.

You want to talk about denial, move to Kentucky.

If I were to get pregnant, I would, for the next 8-9 months, be breathing in the second hand smoke from up to 100 cigarettes for 9 hours a day.

Can I sue my employer if the baby has health problems that could have been caused by smoking?

Nobody has been able to answer that question yet.

[mzmolly]

257. I bet you'd have a case if your employer allows smoking indoors?

Cheers.

[nashbridges]

228. I'm not a zealot

And my nephew (by marriage) is autistic. Slightly so, but nonetheless he requires special care. I've looked into the research, and nothing I've read so far shows anything beyond what I would consider "coincidental evidence."

It's not a court case. You have to be able to prove causality and not just a convenient link between the two. In my nephew's case, he was vaccinated (along with his older sister), but he was diagnosed tentatively before the vaccinations took place. As he got older, it was easier for the doctors to definitively find symptoms of autism. His sister (along with about 50 million other children in this country) is not autistic.

He's doing just dandy with a little extra help since he has a mild case. One of the reasons it took so long to diagnose was because he was "on the fence" for a few years, but it became more evident when he aged.

If someone finds a definitive link - a CAUSE - for autism and shows me how a vaccine aggravates and/or accelerates the onset, then I will bite. Right now it looks to me that the methods of diagnosis are getting better, and thus the rise in concern.

Since vaccines coincide with the age that children start having noticeable symptoms of autism, I will buy a correlation, but not a cause.

[mzmolly]

230. Should we not demand vaccines are safe before administering them?

Why is the burden of proof upon the 90% of americans who comply with vaccine recommendations.

My child has a neurological disorder which may or may not be linked to a vaccine I had while pregnant. She may also have had the hep b vax. And, I have a nephew who is also autistic. I am not convinced either way, but I certainly won't wait for vaccine promoters/drug companies to admit that vaccines cause X before I take a very sceptical look for myself.

[nashbridges]

237. It is, like everything

Weighing the benefits against the negatives. I'm going to throw out child vaccines and autism, since I haven't seen a causality proof that holds any water.

However, here's a scenario: Almost 5% of vaccinations cause a localized infection from the shot or poor care of the skin after injection (kids get dirty - deal with it). Children are usually pretty good about getting over it without antibiotics, but some aren't. Some require a repeat visit to the doctor.

Based on that criteria, the vaccine isn't "safe." However, you have to weigh that against the chance of death if your child gets measles, mumps, or another disease. Most people opt for the vaccine.

You are asking for a 100% absolute, and you should know that those do not exist. By all means - don't get vaccinated in the event of an outbreak. Don't get your children vaccinated if you think it will harm them.

You don't know if your child has a disorder because of something you did, and I understand the knife-in-the-gut wrenching pain that causes a parent. That doesn't mean you should actively avoid any potential benefit to your health or your child's health in the future.

The trick is to make sure you are always looking out for your best interest and your child's. The other trick is to realize that if you've made a mistake while trying to do something good, no one, even your child, is going to blame you.

However, in the event of a pandemic, the needs of the community overwhelm the needs of the individual. If you make the choice to not get a vaccine, I have no problem making sure you are quarantined.

[mzmolly]

240. I want safer vaccines. I've studied this issue for about 6 years now

and I am very versed on disease statistics. Given that, I am not concerned about my child getting the diseases you mention. I am concerned about how I am going to deal with her other issues however. I am also concerned about her vulnerability to a vaccine reaction given her central nervous system issues. At the time I chose not to vaccine, she was not yet diagnosed. I've come to find out that with her issues she is in fact more vulnerable then the general public to a reaction.

However regarding your snarky pandemic comment (which I hear on a regular basis) ... in the event of a pandemic, why not quarantine those who have the disease - instead of me? After all if your vaccinated your safe right? Also, I will weigh the decision to vaccinate AGAIN if there is an actual pandemic. I don't know why some people always assume giving thought to vaccines is "anti-vaccine." It's absurd frankly.

[nashbridges]

252. Calm down snarky

And you were being snarky as well.

The answer is that healthy people will transmit the disease. You or your children included. You can wake up, go to work, and fuck another human being.

I still believe your right to refuse vaccination, especially for your children.

[mzmolly]

253. Thank you. Vaccinated people can also transmit disease.

Also, vaccines can and do harm children and adults each year, which is why we need to respect choice in this matter and press for safer vaccines.

Peace

[beam me up scottie]

208. Several doctors on Orac Knows' website

noted that autism was commonly misdiagnosed until recently.

They believe that is one of the factors involved in the "spike" of autism incidence.

This is a really touchy subject on DU.

I came in on the tail end of some horrible flame wars and they made me curious.

I didn't know much about the issue, so I started doing my own research.




I can't tell how long you've been here, but welcome to DU!

[kestrel91316]

54. Well, then, do the world a favor and don't ever seek medical care again.

Put your money where your mouth is, if you think they are such charlatans.

NEVER accept medical care again, 'til the day you die. That'll show 'em.

[mzmolly]

113. If people want to make informed decisions, they should shun medical care?

Are doctors error free?

[mzmolly]

112. I think doctors get their information from drug profiteers, who've been

known to cover their ass and make money at the expense of human beings.

Does the name Vioxx ring a bell? How many doctors knew what the drug company did about that drug?

I'm glad you have an education that makes you feel confident in your decision to vaccinate. However many people with a backround similar to yours, disagree with you.

[beam me up scottie]

134. Really? I know a doctor or two who would disagree with you.

Is promoting distrust of doctors a hobby of yours?

[mzmolly]

140. And, I know a few doctors who agree with me.

Is promoting doctors as gods a hobby of yours? Doctors are human beings who are also subject to error, propaganda and poor judgement.

[beam me up scottie]

144. " I think doctors get their information from drug profiteers"

That was your claim and you're free to have all the trust issues you want.

Just don't encourage others to ignore their doctor's advice.

Doing so is unethical and dangerous.

[mzmolly]

145. Just don't encourage others to elevate their doctors to god status

doing so is unethical and dangerous.

People have a right to question doctors and even medical advice.

[beam me up scottie]

147. Stop misrepresenting what I posted.

It is disingenuous, not to mention ridiculous considering everyone can see what was actually posted.

[mzmolly]

150. Frankly, you responded to a post I made to another person.

I read what you posted and responded accordingly.

[Telly Savalas]

71. Does this include traffic cops?

[beam me up scottie]

15. Pseudo-science is for pseudo-intelligent people.

And pseudo-medicine in the face of a pandemic is for fools.

[SidDithers]

201. Ooooh, I like that...

Gonna have to save that and use it some time :)

Sid

[beam me up scottie]

203. Hi Sid!

Glad to see you here.

[SpiralHawk]

214. "Know nothings"? WTF?

You agree to a bill that will let the government shoot you up with drugs against your will whenever they want to?

You call people who stand for the basic right to control their own body, and how it stands against nature, "know nothings"?

You might want to reconsider that, kesty.

I for one will not submit to a Mandated and Forced Federal Needle in My Ass, loaded up with some Chemical WhackShit from a Profit-Driven BushCo Crony.

Not till they pry the Constitution from my cold, dead hands.

[beam me up scottie]

220. Did you READ the bill?

It says nothing about "shooting" people up against their will.

[elehhhhna]

2. They can't drop water in New Orleans but they're going to force us to be

innoculated? RIIIIIIGHT.

[MsConduct]

4. I think the government will have a big problem forcing the

public (en mass no less) to be vaccinated. I see the revolution on the horizon.

[kestrel91316]

11. HMMPPHHH! If people don't get vaccinated in the face of a

H5N1 pandemic, there won't be much point to a revolution. There won't be anybody left to govern.

Nice to know you want to help make this a better world for our children.........

:sarcasm:

[MsConduct]

92. LMFAO If you want to go ahead and let bushco vaccinate your

family, be my guest. I just think it's really, really, REALLY suspicious that the oncoming 'epidemic' came up ONLY after the bush buds got their collective asses in a sling. I think the new vaccine will kill more people than it ever would help. One good way to rid the country of the old, sick and poor, don't you think?

[beam me up scottie]

96. Do you honestly believe this just "came up"?

The rest of the world has been worried about a pandemic for years.

Our administration has had its head up its collective ass until now.




edit grammar

[mzmolly]

115. We've had many pandemic scares in the past also.

And, most in recent years have not come to fruition.

[beam me up scottie]

123. We've also had many pandemics

that killed millions of people.

[mzmolly]

127. We've also had disease come and go throughout history, sans vaccination.

And, we've made many improvements to our drinking water, medical care standards etc. all have played a role in the reduction of disease.

Further, vaccination compliance rates are higher then ever in the US, it's odd to think that most americans would shun a vaccine in the event of a pandemic (without very good reason.) If the vaccines in question are safe and effective - give Americans a choice and don't remove drug companies from liability (which may cause unnecessary trepidation on the part of americans.)

[beam me up scottie]

133. Who's advocating removing drug companies' liability?

My response to the poster above concerned the rumour that the threat of an Avian Flu pandemic was manufactured by this administration to scare the public.

[mzmolly]

135. This thread is about that. Further, the pandemic scare is very convenient

as they are trying to force this legislation through after days of Americans reading about a deadly flu. It think the person you replied to made that connection is all.

Suddenly were to fear a pandemic - and oh yeah, there's this bill that will absolve drug co.s from liability in the event of mandated vaccination.

Curious to me.

[beam me up scottie]

139. This thread is about paranoid hysteria.

The op falsely claims that this bill is about forced vaccinations.

[mzmolly]

141. Regardless, it is about mandated vaccinations and the absolution of

drug companies from liability. That is a cause for real concern.

[beam me up scottie]

146. The bill is NOT about mandated vaccinations

It's a red herring and it may cause people to dismiss concern about the bill when they find out it's untrue.

The op could have started a thread about the danger of allowing drug companies to avoid liability issues instead.

[mzmolly]

148. It is about mandated vaccinations, though the word "forced" is a bit

iffy.

[beam me up scottie]

156. Where does it say there will be mandatory vaccinations?

[mzmolly]

164. Many vaccines are already mandated.

There are varied exemptions depending upon the state, but many people are not aware that they exist.

[beam me up scottie]

165. But isn't that only for children who will be enrolled in public schools?

Vaccinations are mandatory in the military.

[mzmolly]

168. Indeed they are.

Though, after a soldier died from the Anthrax vax, the gov. lightened up a bit - to my understanding?

G - Night.

[MsConduct]

172. considering that bush and gang could give a flying fandango

about the American people or this country at all, I don't trust one thing any of them say. Drug companies (who seem to be running the show now) aka: vaccine developers, could care less about humans either. The pandemic (which is a probability) just seems to be mighty convenient excuse for martial law, and all kinds of other very bad things...

[beam me up scottie]

173. I agree with you there.

They've never hesitated to use any crises to their advantage.

I'll stick with the scientists at CDC and WHO.

[MsConduct]

176. Here's some more info, directly from CDC

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/gen-info/facts.htm They don't make it seem that urgent, yet.

[beam me up scottie]

178. The threat does exist.

Too many people are claiming it's a hoax which is just as bad as this administration's attempt to exploit fear.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Thanks for the link - I'm doing research on this subject for an article and that's an excellent source.

The WHO's site is also very informative along with FluWiki.

[MsConduct]

183. You are correct, the truth is somewhere in the middle. And

cooler heads should prevail. You are welcome for the link, I'm glad
it will be useful for you.

[nashbridges]

260. Tell you what

if it becomes a pandemic,

Do nothing, and then scream about politics while you are dying.

People on this board are worried because it does not matter.

[MsConduct]

264. I don't plan on screaming at any time. What's your plan?

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/gen-info/facts.htm The way I read these facts, I see no reason to panic.

[beam me up scottie]

6. This hysteria again ?

[Mass]

8. Has anybody actually read the bill that went out of committee

I would be surprised that Kennedy or Harkin would subscribe to something that outrageous, without some control included.

If the controls are correctly included, it is all an issue of knowing what is more important to you: your right not to be infected by sby else or your right to be allowed to infect somebody else.

[sproutster]

12. If you get innoculated why force others - you are protected.

I'm sorry, I will NEVER let the government have that much control.

[kestrel91316]

38. Maybe because I give a damn about people other than myself, too.

Sounds like another true blue Libertarian masquerading as a Democrat. ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME
MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE MINE
SELFISH SELFISH SELFISH

Yeah! Who gives a damn about those other poor suckers who would LIKE to get vaccinated but can't for whatever reason? That's just their tough luck. Why should I care if my getting vaccinated could protect them? I demand my rights!!!!! To hell with everybody else's!!!!

[mzmolly]

117. Can you guarantee that people who are vaccinated won't suffer

as a consequence in the short and long term? If you can't then you have no right to make decisions on behalf of others.

I thought Democrats believed in medical choice, thus the support of Roe V. Wade.

[kestrel91316]

13. Unfortunately, we seem to have a large contingent of the

latter here - people who demand their "right" to be the Second Coming of Typhoid Mary.

What? Care about my fellow human beings?? Why on earth would I want to do anything as silly as that?! I DEMAND MY PERSONAL RIGHTS!!!!!!!!! IT'S ALL ABOUT MEMEMEMEMEMEME!

[sproutster]

18. Who the fuck are you to say that?

If in fact avian flu comes to anything and the vaccine is available I will get it -- I WILL NOT BE FORCED TO TAKE ANY DRUG THE ADMINISTRATION MANDATES.

There is common sense and there is facism. Get a grip. I don't doubt many here will take it if it's needed, but we refuse to be lab rats.

[kestrel91316]

42. Who am I to say that??

Someone who has read the First Amendment and will say whatever she damned well pleases on the subject, thank you very much.

Requiring vaccinations in the face of a deadly pandemic is not fascism. It's medical COMMON SENSE. Blind political loyalty to warmongers and corporatists is fascism.

Fine. Don't get your vaccinations. But don't expect to be allowed in public if you refuse. I support quarantine TOGETHER of all who refuse H5N1 vaccination in the face of a deadly pandemic. You have no right to endanger others.

[mzmolly]

119. How bout the quarantine of those who have H5N1instead?

eom

[mirrera]

69. Thanks I agree!!!

If the FDA was really advocating for us and not the big Pharm, I might trust them. If a Doctor EVER asked me what I ate, I might trust them. More people die from medicine given to them by a Doctor then from illegal drugs. Ridiculous to be pumped full of chemicals because the GOVERNMENT tells me I need it.
Never. People need to read Ira Levin's This Perfect Day.


http://NoBullshiRt.com

[beam me up scottie]

73. " More people die from medicine given to them by a Doctor

then from illegal drugs."

Got any evidence to back up that statement?

[KittyWampus]

130. Taking Medication AS PRESCRIBED Is A Leading Cause Of Death

after heart attack and stroke. And that doesn't include people permanently disabled or negatively effected.

Look it up on JAMA's website.

Western Medicine is NOT what's it's blind adherents profess it to be.

Some of us have a healthy skepticism towards what Science has allowed itself to become... the product production arm of Industry.

[beam me up scottie]

137. Stats?

Links?

Anything at all to back up your claim?

There's a big difference between skepticism and paranoia.

[RazzleDazzle]

199. Here are some stats

about the dangers of conventional medicine -- not sure if they include the assertion in the post to which you are referring, though, but the stats they do cite are quite chilling enough (all nicely footnoted and everything):

Modern Health Care System is the Leading Cause of Death, Part I
By Gary Null PhD, Carolyn Dean MD ND, Martin Feldman MD, Debora Rasio MD, Dorothy Smith PhD

A definitive review and close reading of medical peer-review journals, and government health statistics shows that American medicine frequently causes more harm than good. The number of people having in-hospital, adverse drug reactions (ADR) to prescribed medicine is 2.2 million. 1 Dr. Richard Besser, of the CDC, in 1995, said the number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed annually for viral infections was 20 million. Dr. Besser, in 2003, now refers to tens of millions of unnecessary antibiotics. 2, 2a

The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million. 3 The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million. 4 The total number of iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is 783,936.

It is evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the United States. The 2001 heart disease annual death rate is 699,697; the annual cancer death rate, 553,251. 5

TABLES AND FIGURES (see Section on Statistical Tables and Figures, below, for exposition)

more: http://www.mercola.com/2004/jul/7/healthcare_death.htm



Here's some info from a JAMA article (that may be the one referred to above):

Doctors Are The Third Leading Cause of Death in the US, Causing 250,000 Deaths Every Year

snip

The author is Dr. Barbara Starfield of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health and she desribes how the US health care system may contribute to poor health.

ALL THESE ARE DEATHS PER YEAR:

* 12,000 -- unnecessary surgery
* 7,000 -- medication errors in hospitals
* 20,000 -- other errors in hospitals
* 80,000 -- infections in hospitals
* 106,000 -- non-error, negative effects of drugs

These total to 250,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes!

What does the word iatrogenic mean? This term is defined as induced in a patient by a physician's activity, manner, or therapy. Used especially of a complication of treatment.

Dr. Starfield offers several warnings in interpreting these numbers:

* First, most of the data are derived from studies in hospitalized patients.
* Second, these estimates are for deaths only and do not include negative effects that are associated with disability or discomfort.
* Third, the estimates of death due to error are lower than those in the IOM report.

If the higher estimates are used, the deaths due to iatrogenic causes would range from 230,000 to 284,000. In any case, 225,000 deaths per year constitutes the third leading cause of death in the United States, after deaths from heart disease and cancer. Even if these figures are overestimated, there is a wide margin between these numbers of deaths and the next leading cause of death (cerebrovascular disease).

more: http://www.mercola.com/2000/jul/30/doctors_death.htm

[beam me up scottie]

202. Thanks for the effort but

Mercola is one of the worst snake oil salesmen out there.

His file with The Dept. of Health and Human Services must have to be stored in its own wing by now.

[mzmolly]

217. Mercola links to the JAMA who published the original study.

Check the website.

[beam me up scottie]

221. I did.

As usual, the studies he cites aren't available.

When he uses ones that are, he gets into trouble.

[mzmolly]

238. I hate to promote this but ...

Medical Errors - A Leading Cause of Death

The JOURNAL of the AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (JAMA) Vol 284, No 4, July 26th 2000 article written by Dr Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, shows that medical errors may be the third leading cause of death in the United States.

The report apparently shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects of medications - these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer. Iatrogenic is a term used when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician, whether it is from misdiagnosis of the ailment or from adverse drug reactions used to treat the illness. (drug reactions are the most common cause).


The National Academies website published an article titled "Preventing Death and Injury From Medical Errors Requires Dramatic, System-Wide Changes." which you can read online at http://www4.nationalacademies.org/news.nsf/isbn/0309068371?OpenDocument or the book "To Err Is Human: Building a Safer Health System" at http://www.nap.edu/books/0309068371/html/ - These show medical errors as a leading cause of death.

Based on the findings of one major study, medical errors kill some 44,000 people in U.S. hospitals each year. Another study puts the number much higher, at 98,000. Even using the lower estimate, more people die from medical mistakes each year than from highway accidents, breast cancer, or AIDS. And deaths from medication errors that take place both in and out of hospitals are aid to be more than 7,000 annually.

I found much information here:

http://www.cancure.org/medical_errors.htm

My intent is NOT to insult doctors, but I do question the entire drug approval process.

I hope you'll take a look at the link, there is much information.

I do think we need doctors and I respect them very much. I just don't agree with MOST on vaccination.

[beam me up scottie]

243. But look at the source and the wording of the article.

The source has a vested interest in maligning science based medicine.

The Cure Research Foundation is dedicated to the advancement of healing without drugs. We began in 1976 with a special focus on cancer, and our cancer division is the backbone of our current program. In March 2002, we decided to cover other health disorders as well. As funding permits, we will be offering counseling services for each of the following conditions: Aids, Alzheimer's, arthritis, diabetes, heart and circulatory disorders, neurological disorders, and pathogen-related diseases. As soon as we have the funds, we will open divisions to provide information on each of these conditions.

and their wording:

The report apparently shows

They don't cite actual numbers or link to the report.

The National Academies website published an article titled "Preventing Death and Injury From Medical Errors Requires Dramatic, System-Wide Changes." which you can read online at http://www4.nationalacademies.org/news.nsf/isbn/0309068371?OpenDocument or the book "To Err Is Human: Building a Safer Health System" at http://www.nap.edu/books/0309068371/html/ - These show medical errors as a leading cause of death.

They are using another article to back up their claims instead of citing exact numbers or linking to actual research.

Based on the findings of one major study, medical errors kill some 44,000 people in U.S. hospitals each year. Another study puts the number much higher,

Again, they have no research or links to back up their claims.


Now, I have no doubt that there are studies that show medical errors are responsible for many deaths.
However, I never believe claims from sites like this.
If you follow the money, you'll usually find an agenda.

In this case, I would look up the research studies cited, verify the information and check for any updates or new studies.

I guess I look at it from a skeptic's point of view.

I'm suspicious of drug companies but even more so of quacks who distribute propaganda to sell their products.

[mzmolly]

244. The source is the JAMA. Don't expect the CDC to put this on

their website or the AAP. Check the published JAMA report for more information. I could go back and get specifics, but I'm not willing as you can as well. Try googling the JAMA report for example.

I am also sceptical of anyone selling anything, but the information from the JAMA is available elsewhere.

You can learn more about and contact the author of the study here:

Dr Barbara Starfield, MD [e-mail]

http://medicalreporter.health.org/tmr0699/importance_of_primary_care_to_he.htm

[beam me up scottie]

245. See, I immediately dismiss anything these

websites claim.

They have zero credibility.

I could look up the studies, and have done so in the past.

But I doubt they would substantiate the claims made by the pseudo-science and anti-science based medicine industries.

And I never denied the general claim, just the spin put on it by these snake oil salesmen.

Most doctors will be the first to admit the system needs to be changed.

However, the anti-science idiots do far more damage than good.

[mzmolly]

249. I'm not a fan of absolutists of any stripe.

I would contact the MD who published the original, I'm certain she can clarify if your interested.

Have a good night. :)

[nashbridges]

207. Bogus Statistic

The leading cause of death after a heart attack or a stroke is having a heart attack or stroke in the first place.

There isn't a 100% recovery rate for ANY serious trauma to the body, regardless of whether or not you take medicine. In order for any of the studies you've referenced to have weight, they have to have a control group of people who have had a heart attack or stroke who don't take any medication at all.

[beam me up scottie]

210. I believe the "theory" is

if someone was taking medication and died, the doctor and drugs killed them.

It's similar to the "theory" of Intelligent Design, which that poster also believes.

[dbeach]

20. MAY i HAve permission to not trust repukes.

or dems pushing dope

last flu killed how many??? 200 in the world

its a scam more money for the croonies more problems for the middle class

bush is a serial liar and his endgame is martial law..

your sane pt is trumphed by the bush insanity..he don't care..it about the bootom line

the doctors in USSR informed on their own patients..thats what bush wants a soviet style USA with him and his pals laffin at the commoners..

Agent Orange Antrhax vaccine and DU depleted uranium..its all govt sanctioned murder..

see who owns stock in the cipro medicine..all bush croonies..

[beam me up scottie]

22. "last flu killed how many???"

Which one?

Influenza Pandemics during the 20th Century

During the 20th century, the emergence of several new influenza A virus subtypes caused three pandemics, all of which spread around the world within a year of being detected.
1918-19, "Spanish flu," , caused the highest number of known influenza deaths. (However, the actual influenza virus subtype was not detected in the 1918-19 pandemic). More than 500,000 people died in the United States , and up to 50 million people may have died worldwide. Many people died within the first few days after infection, and others died of secondary complications. Nearly half of those who died were young, healthy adults. Influenza A (H1N1) viruses still circulate today after being introduced again into the human population in 1977.
1957-58, "Asian flu," , caused about 70,000 deaths in the United States . First identified in China in late February 1957, the Asian flu spread to the United States by June 1957.
1968-69, " Hong Kong flu," , caused about 34,000 deaths in the United States . This virus was first detected in Hong Kong in early 1968 and spread to the United States later that year. Influenza A (H3N2) viruses still circulate today.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/gen-info/pandemics.htm

[mzmolly]

122. The flu can be very deadly for those who are vulnerable in our population.

That doesn't mean that people should not have medical choices. Vaccination is not the only means of reducing exposure and illness from disease.

[beam me up scottie]

125. Did I say that?

Ignoring the facts and spreading disinformation will kill people if and when a pandemic occurs.

[mzmolly]

132. The subject i of the thread is that vaccines may be mandated and

the drug co.s that mfgr them may be absolved from any liability as well. I think that is very dangerous. Far more so then giving Americans a choice in the event of a pandemic. Let drug companies compete and be held accountable. That is what is best for everyone.

[beam me up scottie]

142. This bill is not about forced vaccinations.

And people are using this thread to spread disinformation.

Nobody is advocating giving the drug companies protection from liability.

[mzmolly]

143. You need to read the bill.

The final bill is still in the works but according to the NVIC:

This broad bill is being led by Republicans and will incorporate liability protections that will extend beyond bioterrorism products into the commercial market.

http://www.909shot.com/ActionAlerts/S1873.htm

[beam me up scottie]

149. I read the bill.

It is NOT about forced vaccinations.

Show me one poster here who is in favour of it.

[mzmolly]

153. Read the thread. People are advocating that it is ok for the government

to "force" people to vaccinate. Granted the OP was a bit misleading IMHO.

[beam me up scottie]

163. Oh, right.

I was thinking about the bill as well.

If doctors and scientists agree that mandatory vaccines are necessary to prevent a pandemic, I would listen to them.

I don't trust this administration anymore than you do and I'm glad the scientists are not letting them call the shots on this.

[KittyWampus]

131. and if you took the time to read the info you posted, you'd notice each

outbreak killed less and less people.

Taking medication as prescribed is a leading cause of death. Even with a flu outbreak it's more likely fewer people would die from it then Western Medicine.

[beam me up scottie]

151. "Taking medication as prescribed is a leading cause of death"

I see you're still repeating that rumour with nothing to back it up.

Produce some evidence.

[Mika]

21. MEMEMEMEMEME = the drug companies!

After all, they have their corporate personal rights too.

Drug companies: I DEMAND MY PERSONAL RIGHTS (to inoculate you all with unproved “vaccine”)!!!!!!!!!

[Mass]

29. as I asked earlier, have you read the bill that came out of committee

Personnally, I have not, nor have I read a warning from any reputable organization against this bill. So, sorry, a DUer with 75 posts is not enough to make me attack Kennedy or Harkin. I will wait to know more about that.

And as stated in post 28, after having read the bill, there is no mention of forced inoculation in this bill.

The major problem of this bill seems to be once again that they are trying to avoid that the pharm companies incur any liability.

[kestrel91316]

62. The H5N1 vaccine is in testing right now. Says WHO

that it's not proven? Oh, that's right. Medical research is all just mumbo-jumbo, and doesn't prove anything.

And the earth is flat.

[earth mom]

98. Wrong Answer.

It's ALL about YOU isn't it? Why should you give a damn what other people do if you and your family are vaccinated? Why do you feel the need to control other people? Science and Medicine have not come far enough to put all ones trust in. Otherwise we'd have a cure for cancer by now.

NO ONE should have one iota of control over any one elses' mind body or soul. You are completely naive if you think those bastards will stop at just "vaccinations". :eyes:

[Taxloss]

184. Refuse to be vaccinated and you become a public health risk.

You can carry the virus without being incapacitated by it. That gives you the ability to infect others. You will endanger innocent people and potentially deprive them of their right to life. That makes your rights a little more tractable in these circumstances.

Presumably if your town was quarantined you'd argue for your right to leave, no matter how serious the infection? :eyes:

"Science and Medicine have not come far enough to put all ones trust in. Otherwise we'd have a cure for cancer by now."

That's an utterly breathtaking assertion. We do have cures for cancer. We have ways of treating and reversing its effects. We have an armoury of treatments. Thanks to medical science there are people walking around cancer-free perfectly happy who would have been killed by the disease in a previous age. As yet we cannot cure every case of cancer. Do you refuse to get into cars because some of them have been shown to be unsafe in a collision?

[dbeach]

14. I nor my fam is taking any govt shots and the bird flu is propaganda

the whole system is based on lies..ask any VN Vet..lies about gulf of Tonkin,agent orange,PTSD,benefits..THE govt lies and the bushies are the biggest liars of all
HELL NO WE WON'T GO to get an unsafe vaccine..

WHATS next..FORCED MICROCHIPS

[beam me up scottie]

16. "bird flu is propaganda"?

Right, so was AIDS according to some other geniuses.

:eyes:

[dbeach]

36. it does target compromised immune system

all so far from bushes is scare tactics and fear mongering

but we are talking about avian flu here nice try changing to aids but you have your pt..JUST i don't trust the bushies to admin anything..enough Vets got infected from the safe hep virus so vaccines are not trust worthy in my book and if bush is pushing them..it makes me less likely to trust..






"Avian Flu: Hype?
Glenn Reynolds posts an email from a University of Chicago professor of medicine:

"As a medical researcher, I want to make a gentle but sincere plea to the blogosphere to calm down this flu hysteria just a bit. The main way that flu kills is by predisposing its victims to "superinfection" by bacterial illnesses - in 1918, we had no antibiotics for these superimposed infections, but now we have plenty. Such superinfections, and the transmittal of flu itself, were aided tremendously by the crowded conditions and poor sanitation of the early 20th century - these are currently vastly improved as well. Flu hits the elderly the hardest, but the "elderly" today are healthier, stronger, and better nourished than ever before. Our medical infrastructure is vastly better off, ranging from simple things like oxygen and sterile i.v. fluids, not readily available in 1918, to complex technologies such as respirators and dialysis. Should we be concerned? Sure, better safe than sorry, and concerns about publishing the sequence are worth discussing. Should we panic? No - my apologies to the fearmongers, but we will never see another 1918.

This recalled to mind Holman Jenkins October 12th WSJ column on the avian flu, in which Jenkins observed:

How a catastrophe with low probability of occurring became a focus of Washington's attention can be explained in one word: Katrina. Unlike the universe, politicians operate on psychological principles. George Bush gave the press conference last week he wished he'd given in the year past about the danger of New Orleans being submerged in a hurricane. He even cited John Barry's book about the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic -- the same Mr. Barry whose earlier book on the 1927 Mississippi flood was widely cited in the aftermath of the New Orleans debacle.

You're seeing an administration more than usually needy to get its "I told you so" chits in hand. HHS Secretary Mike Leavitt has stated, quite accurately, that the U.S. is unprepared for a worst-case pandemic. But when pressed on the odds, he said, "From all I hear from scientists and physicians it is relatively low, but it is not zero."

... experts say a medium-severity bird flu outbreak would kill, at most, 207,000 Americans. In a normal year, flu kills 36,000. The 1918 flu, which is now believed to have been derived from bird flu, killed nearly 700,000 in a population one-third the size of today's, but notice that many of its victims died of secondary bacterial pneumonia that now are treated with antibiotics.""

[beam me up scottie]

41. The threat of bird flu should not be politicized.

Period.

Science is neutral.

People who try to tell others there is no danger should stick to putting their own lives at risk.

As for me, I'll take the word of the experts at the WHO and CDC over that of the chicken littles on DU.

[dbeach]

56. to each theirr own

I agree nothing should be politicized BUT we are way past that

BTW
VA reports over 170,000 PG Vets on disability and the numbers are not updated..

if it was my own doctor telling me to get vaccinated I would ..BUT trust in this admin is not possible

so even trust is political

http://www.betterworldlinks.org/book107k.htm

[beam me up scottie]

58. I am a veteran.

And I don't trust this administration anymore than you do.

I put my trust in science.

[KittyWampus]

136. Science is IDEALLY Neutral but not in practise.

[beam me up scottie]

152. Science IS neutral.

Are you confusing it with things like intelligent design and creationism ?

[mzmolly]

157. Have you considered the conflict of interests in the drug approval

process? Google it, you may be surprised ...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=conflict+of+interest+in+drug+approval+process&btnG=Google+Search

[beam me up scottie]

161. But what does that have to do with science?

Science is neutral by definition.

[mzmolly]

166. If only it were that simple.

There are too many factors to consider in the drug approval process to consider science "neutral." Scientists who worked for the FDC/CDC have taken issue with the so called "science."

I wish the CDC would let neutral scientists actually examine all of their data, I know there is a call for that currently and I hope it comes to fruition.

I'm out.

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

170. But science itself is neutral.

People can use scientific evidence to further their own agendas but that doesn't change the definition.

G'nite!

[kestrel91316]

64. Hey, yeah, scottie, don't you know that AIDS is NOT caused by HIV?

That's all just lies by the medical industry and evil Democrats.

And the earth is still flat!

[beam me up scottie]

72. D'oh!

That's what I get for listening to those stupid scientists.

Next thing you know, they'll be trying to tell me that homeopathy can't cure cancer...

[beam me up scottie]

17. Hopefully all of the stupid people will believe the woo woo lies about

bird flu, refuse to get vaccinated and purify the gene pool when they croak.

Darwin Award, anyone?

[kestrel91316]

47. Your lips to God's ears........I am so sick to death of this

ignorant nonsense from supposedly intelligent people.

Like I have said - okay, DON'T get the flu shot in the face of a pandemic. But then you have to enter isolation with all the others who refuse. Go ahead and spread it among yourselves. The rest of us have the right to protect ourselves, because as anybody with any medical background knows, no vaccine protects 100%, and many might want vaccination but can't due to medical reasons, like egg allergy, or pre-existing conditions, or recent fever, or whatever.

Let the foolish be purged, and we can start afresh.

[beam me up scottie]

53. I agree.

I cannot believe the amount of propaganda and disinformation still circulating on DU about this.

Do they know that it's just as easy to type in the address of the WHO's website as it is prison planet's?

Not to mention a million times more intelligent.

[Telly Savalas]

70. All you gotta do is point out that the law is unnecessary...

since the guvmint will just use UN Black Helicopters to spray an airbourne version of the vaccine.

[beam me up scottie]

74. Can they use the same tanks they used to spread the virus?

It would be cheaper.

[kestrel91316]

63. Do your homework. The H5N1 vaccine is in the second phase of testing

right now, and is so far very safe and effective. Why, if all the other flu vaccines over the years have been safe and effective, would this one be any different?

[BeHereNow]

19. Welcome to DU pola, but unfortunately calling won't help

The Pharma Cartel OWNS our "representatives."
They finance them into office and then collect
the bill with this sort of thing.
We can kick and scream, but we are
still going to be drug (no pun intended)
into this hideous nightmare.
Civil disobendience will be the only alternative.
BHN

[rodeodance]

23. Law Eliminating Liability For Vaccine Injuries ---is is my worry!!

....20 October 2005

*****
Congress Set to Pass Law Eliminating Liability For Vaccine Injuries 19 Oct 2005 The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) is calling the "Biodefense and Pandemic Vaccine and Drug Development Act of 2005" (S. 1873), which passed out of the U.S. Senate HELP Committee one day after it was introduced "a drug company stockholder's dream and a consumer's worst nightmare." ...The bill establishes the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Agency (BARDA), as the single point of authority within the government for the advanced research and development of drugs and vaccines in response to bioterrorism and natural disease outbreaks such as the flu. BARDA will operate in secret, exempt from the Freedom of Information Act and the Federal Advisory Committee Act, insuring that no evidence of injuries or deaths caused by drugs and vaccines labeled as "countermeasures" will become public.

[Mass]

32. This looks a lot more serious worry and much more believable

given the record of the current administration.

[kestrel91316]

48. Oh, but that's ok. If it's like the situation in veterinary medicine has

been for YEARS, if there is a problem you can just sue the DOCTOR for giving you a bad product. He is 100% liable. This is the deal for us vets; nobody asked us first if we wanted to accept 100% of the product liability for vaccines. It just got assigned to us.

[Shallah Kali]

175. I agree this is a bad idea. Too many companies cover up bad tests

and put people at risk for serious problems for the sake of the almighty dollar. We need liability to keep 'em a bit more honest if only for them to prevent getting their pants sued off for lying about product safety. Corporations do what is right for the corporation not what is right for consumers or else Vioxx and the other drugs yanked off the market would never have been sold.

[sproutster]

24. Interesting a REPUBLICAN physician makes more sense...

Then the Koolaid Drinkers that have sprung up.

Government Vaccines -- Bad Policy, Bad Medicine


By Dr. Ron Paul

A controversy over vaccines, specifically the smallpox vaccine, is brewing in Washington. The administration is considering ordering mass inoculations for more than one million military personnel and civilian medical workers, ostensibly to thwart a smallpox outbreak before it occurs. Yet dangerous side effects from the vaccine -- ranging from mild flu symptoms to gangrene, encephalitis, and even death -- cause many to question the wisdom and need for such inoculations.

As a medical doctor, I believe mandated smallpox vaccines are bad medicine. The available vaccine poses significant risks, even though the more serious complications affect only a statistically small number of people.

As with any medical treatment, these risks must always be balanced against the perceived benefit. Remember, not a single case of smallpox has been reported, despite the near hysteria that characterized recent news reports. Even if some individuals became infected, smallpox spreads only with very close contact. Those in the surrounding community could then decide to accept vaccines based on a much more tangible risk.

As a legislator, I believe mandated smallpox vaccines are very bad policy. The point is not that smallpox vaccines are necessarily a bad idea, but rather that intimate, personal medical decisions should not be made by government. The real issue is individual medical choice. No single person, including the president of the United States, should ever be given the power to make a medical decision for potentially millions of Americans.

Freedom over one's physical person is the most basic freedom of all, and people in a free society should be sovereign over their own bodies. When we give government the power to make medical decisions for us, we in essence accept that the state owns our bodies.

The possibility that the federal government could order vaccines is real. Provisions buried in the 500-page homeland security bill give federal health bureaucrats virtually unchecked power to declare health emergencies.

Specifically, it gives the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) -- in my view one of the worst of all federal agencies -- power to declare actual or potential bioterrorist emergencies; to administer forced "countermeasures," including vaccines, to individuals or whole groups; and to extend the emergency declaration indefinitely.

These provisions mirror those found in the Model Emergency Health Powers Act, a troubling proposal that was rejected by most state legislatures last year. That Act would have given state governors broad powers to suspend civil liberties and declare health emergencies. Yet now we're giving virtually the same power to the secretary of HHS. Equally troubling is the immunity from civil suit granted to vaccine manufacturers in the homeland security bill, which potentially could leave individuals who get sick from a bad batch of vaccines without legal recourse.

Politics and medicine don't mix. It is simply not the business of government at any level to decide whether you choose to accept a smallpox vaccine or any other medical treatment. Yet decades of federal intervention in health care, including the impact of third-party HMOs created by federal legislation, have weakened the doctor-patient relationship.

A free market system would allow doctors and patients to make their own decisions about smallpox inoculations, without the federal government hoarding, mandating, nor prohibiting the vaccine. Instead, we're moving quickly toward the day when government controls not only what vaccines patients receive, but what kind of health care they receive at all.

Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.

[beam me up scottie]

27. That article is 3 years old.

This bill is not about forcing people to get vaccines.

Koolaid drinkers are the ones who don't do their homework.

[dbeach]

49. so its old

Paul may have a bit more info than you..but really the insults and smarms are more about you than anyones lack of info..


I will pass on any vaccines..had enough to know the harmful effects.
yes its not forced vacccine yet only if you are in the US Military and the sick Vets are proof and its not small numbers.
its thousands and thousands PG syndrome is about 270,000 cases
and the taxpayers are footin the bill

Agent Orange, hep vaccines ,DU ,Anthrax have hurt many and more are reporting medical issues..

[beam me up scottie]

55. So you admit it has nothing to do with this bill.

Wonderful!

:hi:

[sproutster]

25. Anthrax shots bad medicine?

Anthrax shots bad medicine?
Vaccine's possible perils listed in military papers
By Dwight Daniels
STAFF WRITER

June 29, 1999

Even as the Pentagon is conducting a comprehensive educational campaign to convince American troops that mandatory anthrax vaccinations are safe, military documents indicate high-level acknowledgment of potential dangers.

Documents obtained by The San Diego Union-Tribune show that Secretary of the Army Louis Caldera agreed in September 1998 to accept the burden of potential liability claims made against the vaccine manufacturer by service members.

The vaccine, according to a memo signed by Caldera, "involves unusually hazardous risks associated with the potential for adverse reactions in some recipients and the possibility that the desired immunological effect will not be obtained by all recipients."

Moreover, the secretary concluded, there is no certainty that the anthrax used in tests to measure the vaccine's effectiveness "will be sufficiently similar to the pathogen that U.S. forces might encounter" during warfare.

Caldera's decision to indemnify Michigan-based BioPort Corp., which will manufacture about 6.3 million doses of the vaccine under a single-source contract with the government, means the company would not have to bear the costs of lawsuits contending the vaccine caused adverse reactions or failed to protect service members against anthrax. The government instead would be liable.

The Army is the lead agency in acquiring the vaccine for all of the armed forces.

A Pentagon spokesman said the last government indemnification of a vaccine manufacturer came in 1976 and involved the controversial swine-flu vaccine.

The government does, however, indemnify other companies that take on hazardous work such as disposing of chemical weapons, the spokesman said.

Mark Zaid, a Washington, D.C., lawyer who represents some service members who have refused to take the vaccine, said the indemnification documents appear to support concerns about potential side effects.

"It seems the military has categorically adopted our arguments against the vaccine," said Zaid, who helped represent five Marines court-martialed this month at the Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center in Twentynine Palms.

Department of Defense officials last week insisted, as they have all along, that the vaccine is safe, regardless of the language in the indemnification agreement.

Spokesmen downplayed the wording of Caldera's letter, saying the lawyerly language in it describes unlikely, worst-case scenarios.

"It's legalese," said Army Col. Dick Bridges, a senior Defense Department spokesman. "It's like The San Diego Union-Tribune buying libel insurance. You don't expect to libel anyone, but you can't say it's never going to happen."

Other Pentagon spokesmen noted that even the most routine procedures in civilian doctors' offices usually are not done until patients sign forms acknowledging the potential for grave side effects.

The Defense Department believes the armed forces face a threat from rogue nations such as Iraq that have developed weapons capable of delivering anthrax. Spokesmen have said it would be immoral to fail to provide troops with the best protection available.

Anthrax is spread by dustlike spores, which can be inhaled. Death, from internal bleeding and inflammation, can follow within days.

Granting freedom from liability to BioPort "will facilitate the national defense," Caldera wrote.

The Pentagon embarked on the $130 million anthrax inoculation campaign in March. Plans call for 2.5 million active-duty personnel and reservists to receive six injections over an 18-month period. Those shots will be followed by an annual booster.

About 220,000 men and women have been inoculated so far. Forty-two have reported adverse reactions, according to the Pentagon, but all have recovered. The reactions generally have been less serious than those caused by flu vaccines routinely given to members of the military, spokesmen said.

Nonetheless, as many as 200 service members have refused the inoculations, citing concerns that they could cause everything from dizziness and nausea to chronic fatigue syndrome, cancer and infertility.

All five of the Marines court-martialed at Twentynine Palms for failing to obey an order to take the vaccine were convicted, including two yesterday. They are Lance Cpl. Michael McIntyre, 22, of Mount Vernon, Wash., who was given 30 days in confinement and a bad-conduct discharge, and Lance Cpl. Jared Johnston, 19, of Henryetta, Okla., who received 25 days in confinement and a bad-conduct discharge.

The previous three, including Lance Cpl. Michael Metzig, 20, of Paradise Hills, received similar sentences.

About 30 Camp Pendleton Marines have refused the vaccine.

"This is another stunning example of the misleading and false statements made by senior military leaders about the vaccine's safety," Zaid said. "It appears to indicate either the service members are just and correct in their reasons for refusing the shots, or the Army has blatantly distorted the true picture of the vaccine's safety."

Zaid is executive director of the James Madison Project, which has represented whistle-blowers and those who believe they have been harmed by the government.

He also has represented families of those who were killed aboard Pan Am Flight 103 in December 1988, filing a lawsuit alleging that the Libyan government was behind the bombing.

Military officials have regularly pointed out that the anthrax vaccine has been approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and has been in use for 30 years. It is used primarily by veterinarians and others who work with animals, since anthrax bacteria occur naturally in livestock.

Defense officials also point to evaluations by nonmilitary scientists such as Dr. Kathryn Zoon, director of the Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research at the Food and Drug Administration, who have backed the vaccine's safety.

In April, Zoon testified before Congress that her organization's scientists "believe (the) anthrax vaccine is a safe and effective vaccine for the prevention of anthrax disease, an often fatal disease."

She said, however, that "numerous significant deviations" from federal regulations by BioPort were earlier observed by FDA inspectors, causing some of the vaccine to be quarantined. In recent months, though, the company has improved its practices and showed "commitment to corrective actions."

Vaccine production there now should be trouble-free, Zoon told the subcommittee.

The issue of how the contractor was selected will be discussed tomorrow before the House Subcommittee on National Security, Veterans Affairs and International Relations, headed by Rep. Christopher Shays, R-Conn.

Shays and other Congress members have previously called on Secretary of Defense William Cohen -- who, like other military leaders, has taken the anthrax shots himself -- to explain why the program was set up using just one firm.

"The Pentagon is locked in a dependent relationship with a new, unproven company," Shays said from his Capitol Hill office last week. "Resting on so weak a foundation, the anthrax vaccine program may not be safe or sustainable."

Shays' staffers noted the Pentagon already has spent nearly $17 million of taxpayers' funds to upgrade BioPort's Lansing, Mich., plant.

The court-martialed Marines at Twentynine Palms are appealing their convictions.

"I am proud to have served as a Marine, (and) if necessary, I would gladly die for my country," Lance Cpl. Jared Schwartz told a military judge earlier this month before he began a 30-day term in the brig.

"At the same time, I have been taught to stand by my beliefs no matter the consequences," the 20-year-old Kentucky native said. "On the one hand, the Marines say the vaccine is for our own protection. On the other hand, we are not permitted to exercise our constitutional and individual rights to control the substances placed in our bodies.

"And when we try, we find ourselves being prosecuted alongside drug users, thieves and rapists," Schwartz added before he was handcuffed and led from the courtroom.

[beam me up scottie]

34. What does that have to do with this bill?

Did you even READ the bill?

[pinto]

26. There is no mention of "forced vaccinations" anywhere in this bill.

following link is the NIH, Office of Legislative and Policy Analysis overview of s. 1873. Full text of proposed bill - which is in committee - follows at the second link, below.

http://olpa.od.nih.gov/tracking/109/senate_bills/session1/s-1873.asp

Senate Bills - 109th Congress
Session I |


S. 1873—The Biodefense and Pandemic Vaccine and Drug Development Act of 2005

On October 17, Senator Richard Burr (R-NC) introduced S. 1873, the Biodefense and Pandemic Vaccine and Drug Development Act of 2005. Among its many provisions, the bill would require establishment of (1) a Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Agency within the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to coordinate and oversee activities that support and accelerate advanced research and development of qualified countermeasures or pandemic or epidemic products, (2) a National Biodefense Advisory Board to provide the Secretary, HHS, with expert advice and guidance on threats, challenges, and opportunities presented by advances in the biological and life sciences and threats from naturally occurring infectious diseases and chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear threats, and (3) a National Pathology Center at NIH and the transfer of certain functions of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology to the Center. S. 1873 would also provide orphan drug market exclusivity for countermeasure products and liability protections for pandemic and epidemic products and countermeasures, and require the Secretary, through the Director, NIH, to establish and award grants to study and validate animal models for chemical, biological, radiological, or nuclear agents or toxins or potential pandemic infectious diseases. S. 1873 has four cosponsors and was referred to the Senate HELP Committee.

COMMITTEE/SUBCOMMITTEE MARKUPS
On October 18, the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (HELP) marked up S. 1873, the Biodefense and Pandemic Vaccine and Drug Development Act of 2005, and ordered the measure to be reported with an amendment in the nature of a substitute.


text of proposed bill here

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c109:./temp/~c1096fVfsH

S 1873 IS


109th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 1873
To prepare and strengthen the biodefenses of the United States against deliberate, accidental, and natural outbreaks of illness, and for other purposes.


IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

October 17, 2005


Mr. BURR (for himself, Mr. ENZI, Mr. GREGG, Mr. FRIST, and Mr. ALEXANDER) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions


A BILL


SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Biodefense and Pandemic Vaccine and Drug Development Act of 2005'.

SEC. 2. TABLE OF CONTENTS.

The table of contents of this Act is as follows:

Sec. 1. Short title.

Sec. 2. Table of contents.

Sec. 3. Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Agency.

Sec. 4. Clarification of countermeasures covered by Project BioShield.

Sec. 5. Orphan drug market exclusivity for countermeasure products.

Sec. 6. Liability protections for pandemics, epidemics, and countermeasures.

Sec. 7. Compensation.

Sec. 8. Rebates and grants for research development, and manufacturing of vaccines, qualified countermeasures and pandemic or epidemic products.

Sec. 9. Technical assistance.

Sec. 10. Animal models for certain diseases.

Sec. 11. Animal Model/Research Tool Scientific Advisory Committee.

Sec. 12. Collaboration and coordination.

Sec. 13. Procurement.

Sec. 14. National Pathology Center.


http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c109:./temp/~c1096fVfsH

[beam me up scottie]

28. THANK YOU !

Jeesh.

[Mass]

30. Thank you

[FlaGranny]

31. Oh my, at it again?

Why are you on this crusade to convince people to not get vaccinated? Do you prefer several million people dying every year of preventable diseases to a handful of bad reactions to vaccinations?

If you don't want to get vaccinated, that's okay. You may take your life in your own hands, but don't try to convince other people how evil it is.

I think you need a little sojourn in a third world country where the kids don't receive any vaccinations at all. Maybe then you will understand.

[beam me up scottie]

37. I see I'm not the only one noticing a trend.

IMNSHO, left wing chicken littles who spread disinformation will be responsible for the deaths of many citizens should a pandemic occur.

Spreading dangerous propaganda borders on criminal.

[kestrel91316]

52. Yep. Especially when some of us have informed them of

the facts repeatedly and tried to get them to stop spewing their lies.

Attempted murder, AFAIAC.

[beam me up scottie]

57. I was hoping they would all migrate to that other site.

But some seem to be posting in both places and then complaining about the replies they get on DU.

Weigh in here, if you want to: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=247x3468

Oh, and thanks for trying to get the facts out there, most of us are listening.

[Marie26]

154. What is woo=woo thinking?

Sorry, I couldn't post in the other thread.

[beam me up scottie]

159. Oh, sorry.

You have to donate to post, and you should.
You'd definitely be welcome in the group.

It refers to non critical thinking.

Here's a definition: http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/woo_woo/

[earth mom]

116. Maybe you should look in the mirror when you talk disinfo....

How does anyone know who anyone is on this site? Who are YOU?

I'm with Pola on this one-I thank her for her post. :applause:

I'm sick of the governments "chicken little" terra b.s. that they've been shoveling for 4+ years now. It all stinks to high heaven! We weren't born yesterday you know...the propaganda is wearing mighty thin.

p.s. Interesting how you framed your sentence "LEFT WING chicken littles". What's so wrong with being left wing? Hmmm?! Isn't this a "left wing" website? :crazy:

[beam me up scottie]

126. That's why I suggested reading the bill.

Instead of listening to hysterical posters who obviously haven't.

The op's statement claiming this bill is about forced inoculations is false.

[kestrel91316]

51. I think some of these nuts are actually Republican trolls

trying to convince the more gullible Dems to commit what amounts to suicide by refusing vaccination in a pandemic.

I smell a rat.

[beam me up scottie]

60. They certainly have an agenda.

It must be a cult.

The Church of Paranoia.

Leave your brain at the door, you won't need it.

[Marie26]

86. I don't quite understand the reasoning

If the gov. is really out to get us - why would they want us to get vaccinated? What exactly is the conspiracy behind this plan? If you REALLY think Bush is out to get martial law because of a bird flu epidemic, the first thing we should do is develop a safe vaccine that prevents that from happening.

[MarsThe Cat]

33. I'll call them all-

and thank them for a job well done.

and thank YOU for the contact info!

[beam me up scottie]

35. !

:evilgrin:

[Mass]

39. For more info on what the issues are, here is the letter sent to Kennedy

by consumersunion.org

http://www.consumersunion.org/pub/core_health_care/002773.html

The Honorable Edward M. Kennedy
United States Senate
Washington, DC 20510

Dear Senator Kennedy:

Consumers Union, the independent, non-profit publisher of Consumer Reports, deeply appreciates the work of the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee to prepare better for biomedical disasters, such as an Avian Flu pandemic. This may indeed be one of the most critical public health issues of our time.

We urge, however, that as you consider the “Biodefense and Pandemic Vaccine and Drug Development Act of 2005,” that you consider a number of pro-consumer changes.

In addition to our serious concerns about the elimination of most liability protections for injured parties, Consumers Union is deeply troubled by the bill’s patent changes which may further fuel drug price inflation. We urge that Congress use direct incentives, rather than patent law protections, to encourage the development, production, and stockpiling of new medical defenses, and not use patent laws to further encourage such development. In the past twenty years, a number of steps have been taken to extend patent life and market exclusivity. Some of these changes have helped encourage the development of new, rare disease drugs. Yet the industry spends most of its effort and the money from its monopoly patents in developing ‘me-too’ drugs that bring little new to medical science, while prescription drug inflation continues at three or more times the general rate of inflation, year after year.

We hope that new ways can be found to protect public health and encourage biodefense and pandemic defenses without consumer price gouging—such as through direct grants, prizes, and guaranteed purchase of necessary stockpiles. History has shown that patent and market exclusivity extensions all too often spill over into monopoly profits, legal manipulations, and outrageous pricing that adds little to the public’s health.

In addition, we hope that in the National Biodefense Advisory Board some consumers could be included. We also urge you to include a provision for immediate and long-term adverse event monitoring by the FDA. It is essential that we understand the pros and cons and side effects of any mass inoculation or preventive measure. Currently, the FDA system is passive, with the agency waiting for reports from doctors, patients, and companies. It is essential in future emergencies that more complete data about harmful effects of courses of treatment are available immediately, so that national treatment campaigns can be adjusted accordingly.

Thank you for your consideration of these views as you work on this important legislation.

Sincerely,


William Vaughan
Senior Policy Analyst

[beam me up scottie]

44. How DARE you

try to inject facts and reason into this thread?

Why it's liable to go into shock and die!

:spank:

[Mass]

46. I know - This is a criminal offense.

I should be forcibly inoculated for this offense.

[beam me up scottie]

50. I'll let you go with a warning this time.

The people who need to hear it the most have their fingers stuck in their ears going "LALALALALALA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LALALALALALALA" anyway.

[jbnow]

108. Reading the text of the bill

is troubling. We need action but not this action.

Release from some liability is understandable and incentives and grants for development even more so.
Easy to believe that's for the good of all of us.

But if public health was the purpose of this bill they would not bar the government from purchasing of generic drugs, giving them orphan drug status and all the other exclusivity provisions of this. If we are paying for it to be developed and releasing liability why are we then making sure they are the only ones with the rights to it for a very long time? Why exemption from cost/accounting standards? We pay to get it developed and then don't make sure it is affordable and mass produced...which would be the whole point for public good.

And if we are releasing liability why are they exempted from the Freedom of Information Act ? Why limit the new agency from congressional and public oversight? Something like this should never have so many barriers to fairness or transparency. This needlessly makes it far more expensive and far less worth trustworthy then should ever be accepted.

I'm afraid this is one of those bills that could get through because we know there is a threat of pandemic so we'd better hop on it. And we should put money into it, but not this way. This is bad.

[Bluebear]

40. "God be with us all" you say: so you favor prayer over vaccines?

Just to clarify.

[beam me up scottie]

59. Another hit and run.

Such courage...

Hi BB!:hi:

[Bluebear]

65. Heya Beam!!

XOX :hug:

[Taxloss]

61. Endanger yourself all you want, but don't endanger others.

The risk of pandemic is REAL. Without this form of mass programme, many thousands of people will die. And I bet you'll be among the people looking at the thousands of dead and saying "why didn't the government DO something?"

[Marie26]

66. The fact that Sen. Kennedy & Clinton support this

makes me think that this is a valid health poilcy bill. It seems unfair to limit liability for drug companies, but they've had a problem because no drug company wants to invest in making vaccines anymore because of the high liability costs. If there really is an epidemic, having vaccines & a vaccinated public would be the best (maybe only) defense.

[sproutster]

68. And their position on the war?

[beam me up scottie]

76. What does that have to do with this legislation?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Marie26]

79. Kennedy voted against the war.

I don't mean that I think they're right on everything, but I do at least usually trust that they have the nation's interests at heart. Compare the supporters of this bill to say the Energy Bill - NO Democrats voted for that because it was obviously a kickback for the oil industry. But this bill seems to have bi-partisan support - that says something. And it doesn't force vaccinations - just waives liability. I guess there's two intepretations: either this is a real response to a real threat; or the gov. is using bid flu propaganda to do - what? Create a flu to infect people? Wouldn't the gov. be trying to STOP vaccines then? If we assume bird flu is at least a potential threat, it's good they're taking steps that actually address the health care issue. This makes more sense then Bush's stupid plan to start military quarantines.

[sproutster]

67. Good lord... enough with the smugness

Who is advocating against vaccines? We are advocating against government controlled forced vaccines.

Get the two straight.

I could post a bunch of info re: Bad Vaccines, and you would poo poo that the avian flu is coming and it's not on topic ... because I don't want a worst case senario regarding vaccination - I'm trying to kill you? Get a grip. This is not STRICTLY for the avian flu. It's for "Pandemics" and "Epidemics." What constitutes an epidemic? Let's see...

Take your pick:
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=epidemic
S: (n) epidemic (a widespread outbreak of an infectious disease; many people are infected at the same time)

www.apsu.edu/wet/whatis.html
An outbreak of a contagious disease that spreads rapidly and widely.

www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/glossary.htm
The occurrence of cases of an illness in a community or region which is in excess of the number of cases normally expected for that disease in that area at that time.

www.nsc.org/ehc/glossary.htm
Widespread outbreak of a disease, or a large number of cases of a disease in a single community or relatively small area. Disease may spread from person to person, and/or by the exposure of many persons to a single source, such as a water supply.

[beam me up scottie]

75. WHAT forced vaccines ???

READ the frickin bill, for christs sake.

[IndyOp]

77. Ron Paul (D-TX): Bird flu threat empty fearmongering. ...

Ron Paul is a medical doctor and member of US Congress. What are your thoughts about his concerns:

Congressman Ron Paul has accused the Bush administration of attempting to set in motion a militarized police state in America by enacting gun confiscation martial law provisions in the event of an avian flu pandemic.

<snip>

Paul responded to President Bush's announcement last week that he would order the use of military assets to police America in the event of an avian flu outbreak."To me it's so strange that the President can make these proposals and it's even plausible. When he talks about martial law dealing with some epidemic that might come later on and having forced quarantines, doing away with Posse Comitatus in order to deal with natural disasters, and hardly anybody says anything. People must be scared to death." Paul, himself a medical doctor, agreed that the bird flu threat was empty fearmongering. ...

=================

I apologize, in advance for posting a link to this site - I believe the interview occurred and that Paul made these comments.

:kick:

[beam me up scottie]

80. If he said that there is no threat from bird flu

and that it's just fear mongering from *, he's an idiot.

Pretty much anyone that agrees to be interviewed and used by pp is an idiot.

[Marie26]

81. Even if that's true...

Paul is worried Bush might use this as an excuse to declare martial law. If that's (and it could be) that would be a good reason to resist the President's plan to seize guns, or end Posse Comitatuts. That wouldn't be a reason to resist a plan to vaccinate people. Vaccination STOPS the epidemic, so people don't become infected, & Bush would have no reason to declare martial law. If anything, if "martial law" is the plan, the Pres. would be AGAINST vaccines, right? This bill is aimed at getting more vaccines made. By oppposing this bill, you could ironically be allying yourself with the very people who would want martial law. Even if you think Bush wants to declare "martial law" w/bird flu propaganda, it seems supporting vaccination would be the best way to prevent that.

[IndyOp]

87. Good reply --

I am more concerned about lifting posse comitatus & forced detention than I am mandatory vaccinations.

I have serious concerns about links between pharma-corporation links with * admin. See for example, Medicating Aliah

"At a time when ethical questions are dogging the pharmaceutical industry and algorithm programs in Texas and Pennsylvania, President Bush's New Freedom Commission on Mental Health has lauded TMAP as a "model program" and called for the expanded use of screening programs like the one at Aliah Gleason's middle school. The question now is whose interests do these programs really serve?"

[Marie26]

101. article

I also am concerned about the ties between Bush & big pharm companies. But if we admit that the bird flu is a potential problem, something has to be done to get a vaccine. And I'm sorry, I don't understand how the article relates to this topic - that's about psychiatric medications, very different from a vaccine.

[IndyOp]

106. I really do understand the vaccine issue -

The only way that people who don't take vaccines avoid getting the disease is because those who do take the vaccine halt the spread of the disease.

The vaccine situation is obviously different from psych meds - and, still, friends of * admin in the pharma industry benefitted from psych med push described in the article; from the Medicare Drug Bill, and they stand to benefit again from mandatory vaccine legislation.

The pattern of benefitting pharma instead of creating legislation that will really help people is established. Hence, I am suspicious of their motives.

My mind is open regarding mandatory vaccination - I want to hear from apolitical doctors and scientists on the appropriate policy. The UK plans to procure enough vaccine to vaccinate their entire population. Somehow when the UK says that it sounds comforting. When * admin says it I want to flee the needle.

:kick:

[FM Arouet666]

120. bird flu threat was empty fearmongering?

So now the good congressman is playing politics with the issue of Avian flu. Just because Bush panders to the fears of our society does not mean that the flu issue is not real. Congressman Paul is incorrect, the flu is more than fearmongering. Paul would be wise to avoid dismissing the flu topic just because Bush is playing politics.

[CalmMan]

78. trust this govn't ?

i don't trust this govn't for anything

[IndyOp]

82. Merck 1991 memo: mercury dose 87 times higher than max daily from fish

<http://www.evidenceofharm.com/latimes.htm>

A memo from Merck & Co. shows that, nearly a decade before the first public disclosure, senior executives were concerned that infants were getting an elevated dose of mercury in vaccinations containing a widely used sterilizing agent.

The March 1991 memo, obtained by The Times, said that 6-month-old children who received their shots on schedule would get a mercury dose up to 87 times higher than guidelines for the maximum daily consumption of mercury from fish.

"When viewed in this way, the mercury load appears rather large," said the memo from Dr. Maurice R. Hilleman, an internationally renowned vaccinologist. It was written to the president of Merck's vaccine division.

[beam me up scottie]

88. And ?

[IndyOp]

83. RF Kennedy: Mounting Evidence Thimerosal - Exponential Growth Autism

I've heard RF Kennedy refer numerous times to mercury-autism link on AAR as if he is convinced the evidence is solid.

<http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/07/01/autism_mercury_and_politics/>

[Marie26]

85. Even if it's dangerous, you don't have to take it.

This bill doesn't force vaccinations. If you believe the vaccine is dangerous, or don't trust the government, you don't have to take the vaccine. All this bill says is if you decide to take it, you can't sue the drugmaker if you're harmed by it. You still get to make the decision - & if you think it's a bad vaccine, you can make the informed decision to decline it.

[IndyOp]

91. I am against all current 'tort reform' legislation --

laws that say that consumers can't sue corporations for hurting them. The fact that consumers can sue makes it much less likely that corporations will put shoddy products on the market. This past week the gun lobby got their dream legislation - protection from people who would sue them over deaths caused by malfunctioning guns.

:grr:

[Marie26]

97. Me too

I think that's a valid concern, especially with this Administration. And it bothers me that their first reponse is almost always to protect the corporations. But it's possible that this might be a special case. There's no shortage of guns out there (God knows), so it's not like gun manufacturers really need this extra tort protection. But there IS a shortage of flu vaccines, & hardly any drug companies manufacture vaccines anymore because it isn't profitable & there's a high liability cost. So by waiving liability, it gives these companies an incentives to start making vaccines to protect people from the bird flu. Possibly saving millions of lives; but possibly depriving many people from recourse if the vaccine is harmful. It's a tough call, but I can see how reasonable people can come down on either side. I know vaccines can have side effects, but if you consider the millions & millions of people who have been saved by them, my opinion is that it's better to err on the side of vaccination. (Think of the smallpox, polio, flu, plague vaccines - where would we be without these developments?)

[FM Arouet666]

124. A bit myopic

I would agree that companies and physicians need to be held accountable for negligence, however, some form of tort reform is needed. Blanket shields which ignore the individual circumstances of the injury are a free ticket to abuse the consumer. However, unrestrained ability to sue for enormous amounts of money is equally odious.

[beam me up scottie]

89. "As if he is convinced"

Exactly.

Kennedy is a politician, not a scientist.

There is no such evidence.

[IndyOp]

84. Links to Republican Congressman Dr. Weldon's communications with FDA

about possible thimerosal/autism link. See especially "U.S. Rep Weldon Calls for Aggressive Follow-up Studies" - Burbacher and Clarkson study.

<http://www.safeminds.org/>

[beam me up scottie]

90. There is no evidence of a thimerosal/autism link.

And this has nothing to do with the op.

[IndyOp]

93. Good night.

Upon reading your second flat assertion "there is no evidence of thimerosal/autism link" without your indicating that you looked at the Brubacher/Clarkson study, I give up.

The thimerosol issue has to do with safety of vaccines, which does relate to the OP.

Good night and Good Luck.

:kick:

[beam me up scottie]

95. I don't need luck.

I've got science.

Luck is for the superstitious and people who believe in pseudo-science.

[callady]

100. Modern Medicine and Big Science

Can also become a bit like a religion.

Too few hours studying the importance of nutrition as one progresses up the ladder to the heights of MD.


To fully appreciate the magnitude of the problems with modern medicine, one must contemplate all of its striking failures (Starfield, 2000):
• 225,000 deaths per year in the US from all iatrogenic causes
• Adverse side effects of pharmaceuticals that cause more than 100,000 deaths per year
• Medical errors that result in 3 million injuries and 44,000 to 98,000 deaths per year, including 12,000 deaths per year from unnecessary surgery
• Nosocomial (hospital acquired) infections that kill 80,000 persons annually
• Inability to truly cure, which results in 40% of the American population — 100 million people — suffering from serious chronic disorders
• Failure to prevent disease and suffering by emphasizing disease care rather than prevention
• Escalating health care costs that prohibit many from seeking health care services when needed

http://www.hazardsofmedicine.org/

[beam me up scottie]

103. WTF is "Big Science" ???

Egad.

That sounds like it came from the same genius that coined the phrase "science worshiper".

Did you seriously just link to "Maharishi Consciousness-Based Health Care"?

[callady]

110. From the WHO

It's good to keep an open mind. Food is the best medicine. But if you need help w/your eyes it might require laser surgery.

The dialogue shuts down with demeaning comments.

Peace


Tried and tested methods and products
• 25% of modern medicines are made from plants first used traditionally.
• Acupuncture has been proven effective in relieving postoperative pain, nausea during pregnancy, nausea and vomiting resulting from chemotherapy, and dental pain with extremely low side effects. It can also alleviate anxiety, panic disorders and insomnia.
• Yoga can reduce asthma attacks while Tai Ji techniques can help the elderly reduce their fear of falls.
• TM can also have impact on infectious diseases. For example, the Chinese herbal remedy Artemisia annua, used in China for almost 2000 years has been found to be effective against resistant malaria and could create a breakthrough in preventing almost one million deaths annually, most of them children, from severe malaria.
• In South Africa, the Medical Research Council is conducting studies on the efficacy of the plant Sutherlandia Microphylla in treating AIDS patients. Traditionally used as a tonic, this plant may increase energy, appetite and body mass in people living with HIV.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs134/en/

[beam me up scottie]

114. I'm a skeptic.

I prefer to base my opinions on evidence.

That said, a healthy diet has been scientifically proven to help fight off infections.

Don't forget, "alternative" medicine is a huge multi billion dollar industry.

Many scam artists sell their products by spreading disinformation and anti-science propaganda.

[FM Arouet666]

138. You missed one important point on the WHO site.

"Create a stronger evidence base on the safety, efficacy and quality of the TAM/CAM products and practices."

The problem with alternative therapies is that they have existed in a realm which does not demand much in the way of evidence. Just because an alternative therapy is found to have a sound scientific basis, does not legitimize the entire alternative therapy establishment.

[callady]

158. I'm not legitimizing

the entire alternative (bad label) establishment or the allopathic medical establishment. There's bad medicine all around.

The entire way in which we look at dis-ease is dys-functional. We need new modes.

The best medicine is fresh air, healthy nutritious food, community support system etc.
The current medical establishment is thorughly corrupted and largely ineffectual. There are also plenty of Alternative Quacks.

The pharmas are raking in the cash and creating more problems than cures.

I also think that the way we look at health is pretty weird. As if just longevity were the be all end all.

One thing to do is to step back and look how unhealthy our society is. Then examine how much money and energy we put into a certain model of health care. It's not working, except for the managed health care profiteers.

Eradicate poverty and provide nutrition. The average Med student takes only one or two courses in nutrition.

[FM Arouet666]

169. Largely ineffectual?

I would have to disagree with a blanket statement supporting the argument that modern medicine is largely ineffectual. Yes, there are problems, but what is left out of all the negative statistics are the statistics showing the number of people who are helped by modern medicine.

Big pharma is branded as the devil by the allopathic supporters, but at least there is scientific evidence behind the product. Sure, greed can cause those in charge of big pharma to ignore the science, putting the consumer in harms way. The supplement and allopathic medicine community tends to make claims without sound evidence, and has become a multibillion dollar industry. Yes, abuses abound.

I do agree with you regarding the warped mentality in modern medicine, longevity is the key, quality of life seems to be a secondary concern. Some of this is profit driven, dialysis and chemotherapy leaps to mind.

As for the average med student, I disagree, I cannot recall a single course in nutrition. But then again I slept a lot, most of med school is mindless memorization, lacking in scientific reasoning.

[FM Arouet666]

155. What a joke

You cannot be serious, I hate attacking an argument based on its source but you can't be serious...


His Holiness
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

Without defending or exploring the statistics presented, which are published in JAMA, are we to believe that because modern medicine has serious flaws, the alternative approach presented by the Yogi is superior?

Lets do this, take 1000 people for the alternative medicine group and 1000 for the modern medicine group. Over their life time, see which cohort does better.

[sproutster]

94. Why not? It fits CDC's definition of an epidemic

The occurrence of cases of an illness in a community or region which is in excess of the number of cases normally expected for that disease in that area at that time.


http://www.fightingautism.org/idea/autism.php

Unless the rise in cases is expected?

[beam me up scottie]

99. Do you seriously believe that autism is an "epidemic"?

Regardless, it has nothing to do with the op.

[sproutster]

102. Then neither does avian flu.

You disagree the autism numbers are epidemic?

[Marie26]

104. Autism isn't a communicable disease

You can't get autism by sitting next to someone who has it. Flu IS a communicable disease & can spread quickly through the population - creating an epidemic.

[beam me up scottie]

105. Such hyperbole

is useless when discussing science and medicine.

It does, however, work well for politicians and snake oil salesmen.

[FM Arouet666]

128. What scientific evidence do you have to support your position?

From your link......

Scientific Research
Under construction! Please stop back later.

[BrklynLiberal]

111. .

Dr. Zane Saul, chief of infectious diseases at Bridgeport Hospital, said H5N1 could be serious, but should not be over-estimated.

The virus could mutate into a humanly transmissible form, he said. "The potential is there, but it’s not likely." The mutation that confers human transmissibility could also reduce the virus’ virulence, he said.

"Patterns suggest that a pandemic could be possible. Viruses mutate and increase transmissibility. Now, hopefully, we could treat flu patients in better ways," he said.

The victims of 1918, most in the prime of life, frequently progressed from full health to death in 24 hours. Their lungs filled with fluid and they suffocated.

About 500,000 Americans died, roughly 10 times the number of U.S. soldiers killed in World War I.

Antibiotics for secondary infections, the drug zanamivir (Tamiflu), and other advances in medical technology could probably reduce pandemic casualties substantially, Saul said.

Even with the best medical help, influenza kills about 30,000 people in the U.S. annually. New vaccines are required every year because influenza viruses are incredibly malleable.

Flu viruses are classified according to two surface proteins, hemagglutinin (H) and neuraminidaseinase (N).

They are involved in entering and then bursting out of unfortunate host cells.

There are 15 known types of H and nine types of N. Genes for these and other proteins are contained on eight strands of RNA in the viral core.

When two A-type viruses infect the same cell, their RNA can mix, producing a new strain.

Public health officials believe that H1N1 and H3N2 will be circulating in the Northern Hemisphere this winter.

Last year, the United States lost half of its promised flu vaccine when a British manufacturer’s plant was shut down over health concerns.

Remaining stocks were allocated to the elderly, the very young and people with chronic illnesses.

Early in April, the CDC issued a report on "Influenza Vaccine Prebooking and Distribution Strategies for the 2005-06 Influenza Season."

Vaccine shortages are apparently already anticipated.

"The supply of influenza vaccine ... for the 2005-06 influenza season appears sufficient to meet the historical demand for vaccine by persons in all the priority groups (of 2004)," the CDC states.

If additional vaccine becomes available, other segments of the population can also be inoculated, according to the CDC.

"Our smartest defense is a well-prepared health system," Hearne said. "We still have a long way to go."

[liberalnurse]

121. I am going to check on what the

American Nurses Association has to say about this.......I'll be back.

[MarkTwain]

160. THANKS for the contact info...

....I'm letting them know that I approve of and fully support their bill and their work on behalf of this critical health issue.

Damn, this thread and many of the posts in it tend to remind just how quickly DU can mimic the Freeper Cesspool in irrationality, blind reactionary responses, lack of scientific and medical sophistication, and just plain dirt, dumb ignorance

[beam me up scottie]

162. Wow, I was wondering who had that

user name.

You wear it well.

[Marie26]

167. THIS BILL DOES NOT FORCE VACCINATIONS

Sorry, just needed to say it. Here's the official text of the bill: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:S.+1873:

[beam me up scottie]

171. Welcome to DU, Marie26.

Boy do we need more people like you.
:toast:

[Carolab]

174. Sorry--Bioshield II virtually guarantees it

Imminent harm

With the DHS having a central database for all birth certificates and driver’s licenses, and the enforcement of the new Intelligence Reform Act’s national ID card, complete with biochips, the mere "threat" of a bio-terrorist attack may be right around the corner. Most states are passing some form of emergency health powers legislation which include mandatory vaccinations and involuntary quarantine provisions. The imminence of mandatory vaccination or drugging with these unproven, experimental drugs is very likely in our new age of terrorism.

It is apparent that the U.S. government is signaling the demise of our once great republic by justifying the passage of federal acts that, in effect, abolish the Bill of Rights and Constitution—to "bioshield" us from the ever-increasing likelihood that U.S. aggression will prompt a biological attack here at home.

BioShield II, is an amended version of BioShield I, which did not provide enough incentives to encourage pharmaceutical industry cooperation. Once signed into law by the president, the BioShield plan will interface with emergency health powers laws that have already been passed in most states, revealing a "biosecurity" infrastructure ready to administrate a declared state of medical martial law.

And just think—under BioShield, such a declaration can come at any moment under the mere presumption that a biological attack may take place.


http://proliberty.com/observer/20050107.htm

Specific information about the Model State Emergency Health Powers Act being enacted in the states:

http://www.909shot.com/ActionAlerts/what_you_need_to_know.htm

When federal and state public health officials convince your Governor to declare a “public health” emergency, they want to be able to use the “state militia” to:

take control of all roads leading into and out of your cities and state;


seize your house, car, telephones, computers, food, fuel, clothing, firearms and alcoholic beverages for their own use (and not be held liable if these actions result in the destruction of your personal property);


arrest, imprison and forcibly examine, vaccinate and medicate you and your children without your consent (and not be held liable if these actions result in your death or injury).

[beam me up scottie]

177. That has nothing to do with That has nothing to do with S. 1873.

Did you even read it?

[Carolab]

185. I read it. While it's not in the S 1873 bill, I believe NVIC meant this.

I think they were "extrapolating" to Bioshield II and the State Act in order to reach the conclusion.

[beam me up scottie]

187. By falsely claiming this bill is about forced vaccinations,

the op has negated any responses from DUers to the Reps listed.

I hope the hell they don't receive a flurry of angry emails or phone calls demanding they vote against this bill because they read on DU that it's about forced vaccinations.

This is why knee jerk hysteria hurts our cause.

[Carolab]

188. I agree that it has induced a wave of hysteria.

Including from myself. It is unfortunate that the NVIC wasn't more clear about how they could make this assertion. Still, this bill is pretty ugly--if for no other reason than that it limits/removes liabilities from the drug companies.

[beam me up scottie]

190. Exactly.

It's horrid enough without adding untruths.

You can almost say that about everything this administration has proposed, you know?

It's like one long, never ending nightmare.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

215. Great post

& welcome to DU.

[cynatnite]

179. Realistically speaking...

The American public won't go for mandatory vaccinations. No matter what laws are written, state or federal, the public at large won't accept it.

They're more likely to go along at the urging of the government.

I'm more troubled by a shield for corporate pharmas. It was shielding gun manufacturers last week. Also one to sheild fast food restaurants. The government is stripping away our rights to sue. We should be raising nine kinds of hell about that instead.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

180. Well I understand, to an extent..

If the government is going to mandate vaccination, you can't very well have people suing the company that makes the vaccine.

Some people WILL die in any large-scale mandatory vaccination. No vaccine is ever 100% safe for everyone, and in some cases it's impossible to tell whether or not it will be safe. Add to that a rapidly-spreading, highly-virulent bird flu epidemic there won't be time to find out beforehand on an individual basis. In that case it's the government's doing, not the pharma's.

[cynatnite]

181. For one thing...mandatory vaccination isn't in this bill...

For another, it's unrealistic, IMO. Ain't gonna happen.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

182. Hmm...

...upon closer examination this whole thread is pretty unrealistic. :)

[Carolab]

186. While it's not specifically in this bill, it is in other legislation.

The Model State Emergency Health Powers Act.

[w8liftinglady]

189. Is Tamiflu on the list?-Rumsfeld is the link

In a reuters article published 9/22/04-


The 20-page form, released by the Office on Government Ethics in response to a request from Reuters, showed Rumsfeld's assets, liabilities and transactions for the year ended Dec. 31, 2003.

Described in ranges rather than exact amounts, his largest holdings included a trust in his name valued at $25 million to $50 million, farm land in New Mexico valued in the millions and a stake in Gilead Sciences Inc. worth $5 million to $25 million.

Rumsfeld served as chairman of Gilead Sciences, a Foster City, California, biotechnology company, before being sworn in as President Bush's defense secretary on Jan. 20, 2001.

http://www.independent-media.tv/itemprint.cfm?fmedia_id=9081&fcategory_desc=x

Gilead invented Tamiflu
http://www.gilead.com/wt/sec/tamiflu

[mzmolly]

193. Now that's very interesting. Yes Tamaflu is thought to be a savior

in this instance. And, they weren't going to allow a generic until very recently.

[Rainscents]

191. I sent nasty email to Patty Murray!!!

[Raine]

213. I'd go to jail before

I would allow the government to force anything into my veins. :mad:

[beam me up scottie]

223. READ THE BILL

It says NOTHING about forced vaccinations.

Jeesh.

RIP Critical Thinking

[sproutster]

224. Read the commentary around the bill.

Kennedy and Hillary said that it won't be in place for avian flu ANYWAYS. Now WHY do we need this bill? WHY do we need to hold the pharmas harmless? WHY do we need to hold the countermeasures harmless?

WHY. This isn't even discussing how it will be used WITH A MANDATORY VACCINATION scheme.

OH yea, we dissenters are trying to murder the human race. Yea you keep saying that.

[beam me up scottie]

227. Who cares about the stupid commentary? READ THE BILL

What part of

THERE IS NOTHING IN THIS BILL ABOUT MANDATORY VACCINATIONS

do you not understand?

[Raine]

263. It's a slippery slope

make the drug companies exempt from responsibility and before long everyone is having to under go vaccinations. Carry it to the 'logical' extreme years into the future. :think:

[Telly Savalas]

225. This thread could really use some pictures of kittens

[mzmolly]

242. Awwwwwwwwwwww.

:*

[beam me up scottie]

246. LOL!

I posted the SAME comment but my computer glitched and I forgot about it when I got back into this thread!

[mzmolly]

258. I needed that kitty pic! You?

;)

K, I'm really out now.

[beam me up scottie]

262. Yeah,

even though I have the real thing purring at my feet.

G'nite!

[Raine]

265. They're ADORABLE

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :thumbsup:

[RB TexLa]

247. I don't care what bill they pass

No one can force me to ingest any drug or accept any medical service I do not want.

I have been through this before, with local police telling me that an EMT "had" to check my head out after a car accident. I did not "have" to purchase medical services from the EMT, not did I have to sign any waiver for not purchasing medical services from him.