It's been said that, since 1971, maths and English skills scores have been

[Deja Q]

steadily dropping.

Has anybody bothered to look more than the grade point averages and look at the ambient causes?! Such as drugs, sex, apathy, disrespecting the teachers, portable video games, portable music players, cell phones, pagers, et cetera?

Not to be biased, there are plenty of other factors which include the quality of materials, political beliefs of the teachers, budgets, and others...

[Dark]

1. It's the parents fault. Seriously,

how can kids be expected to give a shit when their parents don't?

This problem won't go away by throwing money at it.

[Deja Q]

17. Or the school systems either... It's not so refreshingly simplistic:

My parents cared. Big damn time. But the school system never bothered to listen. (15 years later, the school system boasted about some new initiatives. Sickening hubris; they were promoting what my parents had been telling them about oh-so-long-ago!!! :mad: :grr: )

[Coastie for Truth]

2. From a (Private School) School Board Member

1. Too much politicization by the RW

* Prayer
* Bible reading
* (Un)-Intelligent Design

2. Grade inflation (began during VietNam)

3. Trying to solve problems from a legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, lynching, and Plessy v. Ferguson by court orders in a few years - rather then improving all schools.

4. The American appetite for "quick fixes"

If you want Prayer, Bible Reading, and Creation Science-(Un)-Intelligent Design, pay the tuition with your money (not mine) and go to a parochial school.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. How much has math changed in 40 years?

We did away with the slide ruler, and added how many coded languages that require knowledge of things like binomials and Hex? Algebra use to be an elective, it is now a requirement. I'm sure there is tons more.

[unblock]

3. meanwhile, politicians are more concerned about 'intelliegent design'

of course they're not focused on anything that actually matters....

[Mass]

5. Has somebody tried to see what is the global knowledge

rather than individual skills.

Thirty years ago, kids did not have computers or access to computers, for example.

If schools programs were even remotely adapted to our world, may be scores would be better.
It is what you get for teaching the test, not teaching life, and discouraging good teachers to teach life and adapt learning to our daily lives. [Too much time spent on English litterature -- do a 6th grader need to know what alliterations are, for example -- and not enough in math skills and science/computer skills -- that there are still addition skills tests in 6th grade is crazy --

[salvorhardin]

6. It's a complex issue

My favorite reason is a culture of disrespect for learning, but that alone isn't the cause of the problem. Low teacher pay, crumbling schools, lack of respect for teachers, overstressed parents who can't or won't be bothered with their kids' education, an overemphasis on standardized test scores... Like you said there's plenty of factors.

[Mythsaje]

9. If children are encouraged in their natural

love of learning from an early age, the most apathetic parents and teachers won't dissuade them from swallowing information whole.

[sinkingfeeling]

25. I agree. I taught (guess that makes me a professor ala Michael Brown)

a college computer class (Introduction to Mainframes) 2 years ago. It was for college seniors and grad studens. I was never so shocked in my life! These people, about to graduate from college, had the basic skills I had in 7th. grade! They could not handle simple insructions, refused to do homework, all 16 failed the mid-term and I was forced to cancel a lecture to review every question and re-test. I would spend a lecture explaining a subject and then I'd ask how that fit with other things we had covered and get blank stares. Since they sat in front of a computer, they were on the internet or emailing friends, instead of doing their lab work.

There are a lot of factors, but the sense of 'entitlement' these young people had was amazing. They just expect to do nothing and learn nothing, but still have 4.0 GPAs.

[JI7]

7. there is too much emphasis on learning = better job= more money

not that there is anything wrong with it. but too many people view taking certain classes only in terms of how it will get them high paying jobs. other than that they just want to get over with some required classes.

but people need to view learning about something as being important in itself.

some kid might say i want to be a writer or director, why do i need to know science or math.

and of course we see in the media and from politicians their ignorance of science everyday.

[Deja Q]

18. But people wish to prosper, or at least live comfortably.

Never mind how, since 1973 BTW, living wages have been falling behind the cost of living itself.

And how more employers are nixing full time jobs in favor of part time ones. (never mind offshoring... having a proper job is increasingly improbable.)

[Mythsaje]

8. If you break it down

it starts very early when the love of learning (something nearly all children start with) isn't encouraged from the beginning. Rote and repetition, while having some educational value, aren't the types of things that induce children to want to learn.

Then there's the social factors, the pressure to conform...not only from the school system, but from the other students. It's about turning out good little mid-level consumers, not starting them on the road to potential greatness. Far better (and easier) to churn out large numbers of mediocre minds than too many exceptional ones.

The whole approach is wrong and has been from the beginning. Old methods don't work in a world where information is everywhere and great discretion is needed to sort truth from fabrication. Teaching to the mean isn't going to cut it. Individual learning styles MUST be addressed and all the excuses in the world isn't going to change that fact.

The key, I believe, is more freedom, not more restrictions. And until we as a society begin to realize this, this decline is simply going to continue.

[nvliberal]

10. Read Berliner and Biddle's 1995 book "The Manufactured Crisis,"

and you will stop believing the horseshit our schools are "in trouble" or that test scores (by that meaning SAT scores) are in decline. A lot more people are taking those tests now than in the past.

If schools are in trouble now, it's DIRECTLY due to the right-wing assault on them.

It never ceases to amaze me non-educators think they know everything about schools but actually know little or nothing.

[donco6]

15. I'm an educator, and I can say that our school is in trouble.

The kids are NOT where they should be. The tests show it, but that's not the only thing. I have more kids coming into 9th grade with NO reading skills than I have ever had before. And don't even think about writing.

The crisis is not entirely manufactured, sadly. Yes, there's a terrible emphasis on testing, but it's not completely consuming what we do here. If we were all using our days wisely instead of showing Simpsons videos, (as my collegue down the hall was doing just yesterday), maybe we'd be getting somewhere.

I'm just a little disgusted today, so take this with a grain of salt.

[ultraist]

26. 2005 SAT scores for Math were at a record high

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0831/p01s02-legn.html

I'm not disputing that our schools are in trouble and that our students are behind overall, but math scores did increase. Verbal scores however have remained flat for decades.

[Mythsaje]

16. Educators exist in something of an echo chamber...

And the assumption that you can't learn anything from someone from outside that echo chamber is a great example of why there's a problem.

The right wing assault isn't helping, but our schools DO teach to the average and the educators fight serious reform every step of the way, even when it's needed.

Our schools have been teaching conformity of thought and reaction since I myself attended...and that does little but encourage mediocrity and groupthink, which is part and parcel of the problem we're facing as a nation right now.

I know something about education because I was directly involved in my own education...I learned to think for myself and defied conformity.

[Ksec]

11. combination

Of many things. Poor parenting, indifferent or unskilled educators, lack of funds, societal problems.

My daughter told me yesterday that she is now starting to understand complicated math problems she has always had a hard time with. I asked her what had happened to make this change and she told me it was her teacher who explained it in a way she finally understood it. Being weak in math skills,I couldnt help her much and we struggled quite a bit with homework.. but this teacher broke throught to her.
This teacher who knows how to teach made the difference. I dont think the colleges are teaching teachers how to teach, some have an ability and I dont know why that is.

[donco6]

12. IMO, biggest influence is language.

Public schools struggle terribly with what to do with monolingual students - Spanish is actually one of the EASY ones, but we have 20-30 more languages in our school district alone. We provide training in ESL and ELL and all that, and it helps some. But not enough.

What we CAN'T do is form a language immersion school, as that would result in a school full of little brown kids, and Office of Civil Rights would be down your back in an instant.

Without higher order language skills, kids cannot understand the math or science concepts. How do you translate "molar" as in a "1.5 molar solution of potassium permanganate" to a Spanish kid? He'll think you're talking about a tooth. Unless he has much higher level English than we can normally get them to, we'll continue to see problems like this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. slight correction

Molar is written the same way in both English and Spanish and has the same meaning in a chemistry setting... now outside the chemistry setting it also means the same thing, you do have molars

Just nitpicking the example because that is a bad one

The problem is that the US truly has no clue, overall, how to teach a second, third and fourth language. OUTSIDE the US average number of languages kids speak is three... hey I fall on the average, COOL!

So I do see language as truly an excuse... sorry, my pet peeve.

[dsc]

13. It isn't the most politically correct thing to say

but one big reason for the drop in scores is that we are actually educating everyone to the 12th grade level. As recently as 1971 there were huge parts of society going to school only through the 8th grade. That is unheard of now.

I also think we have literally turned some of our schools upside down spending inordinate amounts of time trying to compel attendence by those who cleary don't wish to come and controlling the behavior of those who cleary don't wish to learn. Every hour spent doing those things is an hour which can't be spent preparing interesting lesson plans, writing college recommendations, etc.

[Deja Q]

19. I myself hate political correctness.

And I agree with your viewpoint.

But how does one convince the child that getting an education is not a bad thing to do? (especially in today's day and age; any astute child is going to see that those in power have no qualms about treating them as disposable commodities and therefore as a result won't give a damn either. So when bill gates and his ilk tell us we need to study these things or lose dominance, he can go enlist himself. By showing us we are not needed, many of us will happily oblige. And unlike us, he is in a position of power. Ergo, a fair portion of the blame goes back to his greedy apostatic lot.)

[teach1st]

14. Be careful ...

The graph depicts aggregates of the NAEP scores from 1973-2003. But, when the NAEP results are disaggregated by race, they seem to show steady progress among all racial groups, with black and Hispanic students showing larger gains than the group as a whole. The scores of black and Hispanic students do remain below the white students in the group, however, and since black and Hispanic students represent an increasing number of the total group each year, the aggregate score appears to flatline, hiding the real progress (Simpson's paradox). For more, see Terwilliger, 2004, http://www.statlit.org/pdf/2004TerwilligerSchieldAERA.pdf">FREQUENCY OF SIMPSON’S PARADOX IN NAEP DATA (PDF File):


Short term from an upcoming letter to NY Times from http://www.america-tomorrow.com/bracey/">Gerald Bracey (through the EDDRA listserve), comparing US scores to other countries:

But the evidence points to gains. In the Trends in Mathematics and Science Study, from 1995 to 2003, only three of 22 nations had larger gains in 8th grade mathematics: Hong Kong, Latvia and Lithuania. Japan and Singapore actually lost ground.

In science, again, only the same three countries had larger gains and again Singapore and Korea scored lower in 2003 than in 1995. The six countries (out of 29) that scored larger science gains in the shorter period from 1999 to 2003 are mostly not competitor nations: the Philippines, Jordan, Israel, Malaysia, Lithuania, and Hong Kong.

Overall, U. S. 8th graders did substantially better in 2003 than in 1995, ranking 15th of 44 countries in mathematics and 9th of 44 in science, compared to 28th of 41 and 17th of 41, respectively.

[Deja Q]

21. So many graphs in general... so which one is truly unbiased and correct?

Yours contradicts others I've seen.

[teach1st]

22. Depends on what data you use and which results you want...

Ultimately, in my opinion, most of the data measures poverty. Given the rise in social ills and trends over which educators have little control, we've been doing a remarkable job.

We used to use what we jokingly called the SUV factor to determine test scores in my district. The more SUVs and other premium car models in the car circle after school, the higher the test scores. It was a pretty accurate system.

[ultraist]

27. The SUV factor

Sad but true. At my children's school, I'd say a majority of the parents drive SUVs, minivans, and luxury cars---the school has some of the highest scores in the state, it's a "School of Excellence" which is the highest distinction for our state.

As a parent of two middle schoolers, I spend a lot of time facilitating their success in school. Some parents simply don't have the time and resources to do this.

[Vitruvius]

23. Math, science, literacy and competence of any kind are NOT VALUED in

corporate America or by our Rethugnican ruling class. It's all who-you-are and who-you-know; creating anything, accomplishing anything, making a breakthru of any kind is an excellent way to get fired & blacklisted in most companies today. So the lazy Rethugnican-ruling-class management can give the credit & promotions for your breakthru to some lazy young Rethugnican ruling-class bums.

Kids know this; part of the job of each new generation is to adapt to society-as-it-is, not society-as-it-should-be. America is a country where a lazy drunken ignorant inarticulate substance-abusing Rethugnican-upper-class twit can become president -- after losing the election. And most of industry is no better; I've had three Fortune 100 CEOs tour my lab when I worked in industry -- and all were as stupid (and well-connected) as George W. Bush. And every time, I was fired shortly thereafter so some of their young protegees could be groomed & promoted on my hard work.

Competence does not count, accomplishments do not count, it's all rigged.

So most kids focus on 'popularity' and connections and status games, not learning, because kids know what counts.

--------- ---------- -

P.S: One of those CEOs was visibly intoxicated when he toured my lab. I was pre-warned (his substance abuse problems were well-known in that company) and the visit went off smoothly. Years later, when I saw that famous photo of a clean-cut young Marine saluting as a disgustingly intoxicated Bush staggered out of his helicopter, I knew exactly how that Marine felt.

[progressivebydesign]

24. IMHO, it's distraction, parental apathy, parental stress, and politics.

Distraction: Kids apparently need to be entertained passively 24/7 now. They have DVD players in their minivans, DVD players and game boxes in their bedrooms(we're talking toddlers here), they are sat in front of tvs and players for hours on end. Apparently some parents believe that a bunch of coke-snorting party boys from Encino working at the studios are better at child development then they are.

Parental apathy: I watch with horror the transition of parents around the time they hit 6th grade... suddenly, unless the kid is a diehard sports kid, most parents begin to think that the kids can suddenly raise themselves. The parental interaction at school stops, the volunteering there stops, the interest in balancing their kids lives stops, and they are left to their own devices.

Parental stress: Really hard for some parents to really manage a kids life and development when they can't even care for themselves properly. Sitting the kid in front of the tv while you all stare at it from 5pm to 10pm is not parenting. But unfortunately our society has reached a stress level that contributes to national anxiety and depression and need to anesthetize ourselves daily, just to get through.

Politics: Schools are the last things funded, and are often badly managed. Schools should have all the funding and attention they need, but they are repeatedly screwed by unfunded mandates.

And... many parents don't value education anymore. They just assume that every single kid should go to college, but they haven't a CLUE how to get them there or make them successful. The parents are abusive to teachers and administrators, always assuming that they are picking on their child, when they have no idea if that's the case.

It's a national problem, the dumbing down of America. I talk to my 13 year old about how parents used to sit down and read a newspaper every day, and knew complex things about the world and the country. They actually reported on tv and the in newspapers about science issues, and world politics, not 3 minutes sound bites... and then a story about an actresses second marriage. People WERE more intellectual. The book, the Dumbing Down of America, is a huge eye-opener. I suggest that book to anyone wondering if it's their imagination. I blame the dependence on pointless hobbies like shopping and passive entertainment taken to the extreme. Either is okay in moderation, but it's like people have lost their ability to do ANYTHING in moderation... drinking, shopping, laying around relaxing, going out to eat. We have become bloated and spoiled, even as we become poorer. I suppose it's a lack of something real... and perhaps that's why the wacky religious stuff is coming back. People feel empty.

Whew.. long post. Back to cleaning the house!

[October]

30. Plenty of condescension from teachers, too...

I'm a very involved parent, and in fact our district is amazing when it comes to parental involvement. The kicker? We are not wanted. I've overheard teachers say things like "She needs a job" when a mother volunteers her time for recess duty, etc.

Seriously, teachers are not blameless here.

[AirAmFan]

28. Slightly lower test scores cood be a GOOD THING, if it comes from higher

proportions of youth completing HS diplomas or GEDs and Increased proportions of youth eligible to take tests. If the percent decline in scaled test scores is smaller than the percent increase in HS completion, youth could be better educated today than they were in the early 70s.

Students who drop out of high school and don't earn equivalency certificates don't get included in average test scores. A higher proportion of youth fit that description in 1971 than fit it today. When comparing test scores from different generations, you can't ignore changes in proportions of young people who got to take tests.

Since 1971, higher and higher proportions of good jobs have required at least some college or community college. In response, about three percent more youth had hs diplomas or GEDs in 2000 than in the early 1970s. See http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2002/droppub_2001/11.asp?nav=2 .

If the extra three percent come from lower-performing groups that have not gotten adequate opportunities to learn, they would bring down average test scores for juniors, seniors, and graduates. For true comparability with test scores today, test scores a generation ago would have to be adjusted downward for a more elite composition of students that took tests.

[SheilaT]

29. If you're talking about SAT scores,

they've risen recently.

It's a very, very complex issue. For one thing, 35 years ago only a relative elite of students took the SAT or ACT tests. Now, practically everyone who graduates high school takes them.

I'd say that over all standards are lower than they used to be. I graduated from high school 40 years ago, and I'm sometimes quite amazed at how little it takes any more to graduate from high school. Many h.s. seniors take two or three classes, and when they go on to college, they really aren't ready for it, even though they're actually bright enough to handle the work.

If I were in charge, I'd revamp the system completely, allowing students to leave school at various points, starting at the end of 8th grade. They'd have some kind of leaving certificate, which would accurately reflect the course work covered to that point. There would be more vocational education (which is a big no-no to those who think that all students should plan to go to college, which is a crock) and more opportunities to enter the work force directly. And there would be multiple opportunities to return to school in some form or another.

We already have a version of this with the community colleges, which are the very best aspect of our educational system. Community colleges provide vocational training, certificate programs, regular and remedial academic work. I've attended a total of six different universities and community colleges over the years, and I'm most impressed with the cc's.