Materialism & Belief In Humans As Machines Is Dangerous To Societal Health

[KittyWampus]

Any society that denies Consciousness exists as an influential part of our personal and shared existence is ignoring the submerged section of the iceberg.

The belief that humans are nothing more than things lies at the base of enslaving others.

The belief in Nature as nothing more than stuff to be used at will lies at the base of using natural resources without restraint or consideration of environmental impact.

The belief that physical matter is all that comprises our bodies lies at the base of a medical system that relies almost soley on chemical medication and ignores behavioral modification.

There is an infinite source of power available to us all in Consciousness... but it is lost as long as humans insist on limiting their understanding of Life within the narrow coffin of Materialism.

The study of Consciousness and Psychology is as old as Humanity or homo sapien sapien. It is, essentially, called Religion. Freud didn't invent Psychology and only barely approached the basics of Mental Science. But at least in using Greek Mythology for some of his terms... he gave us a true measure of the Truths hidden within older thought systems and philosophies.

The continual attempt of some on the Left to trash that which helps us understand what lies beyond Material Reality is counterproductive to Humanity's greater good.

[AirmensMom]

1. Thank you, cryingshame.

[izzybeans]

2. Materialism and consciousness are birds of the same feather

One without the other=not possible

[KittyWampus]

8. very good point.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

3. Simplistic rant. Heart is in right place, target is wrong.

Psychology is not religion. Duh.

Just because computer scientists talk about trees (a kind of data structure) doesn't make Computer Science into Botany. When Freud wrote his ground-breaking stuff, he was writing for the educated classes of his time, which meant they were thoroughly familiar with Greek myth. Don't view him through the prism of a late 20th century middle class education (whether that is yours or not).

Individual consciousness exists, and nobody denies it. I and others deny there is a Jungian species super-consciousness. What I think actually exists is that because the human species has a written body of knowledge and is so numerous and is so interconnected globally now, there is a level of "consciousness" (for lack of better term) that operates above the level of human consciousness in the same way that human consciousness operates above the level of neurons and ganglia. It is in my view practically a mathematical imperative, not something mystical, no more mystical than the beauty of a rose is mystical. I am sure that consciousness arises naturally, mathematically, and not because of some supernatural religious spark.

People are biochemical machines. But that is not all they are, because they have developed consciousness and science and music and so much more. Physical matter is all that comprises our bodies, but that does not deny that conscious will filters down to the physical body. For example, neuroimmunological studies have shown that a person's attitude is important in their recovery from illness. Modern medicine does not ignore "behavioral modification", though I would choose more artful terms like "directed visualization" and "willful intent" and "lifestyle choices".

Religion, especially organized religion, is not much real use. Everything that religion seeks to accomplish (in its idealized form) can be accomplished by introspection, philosophy, discussion, deep thinking, and enlightenment.

Your heart is in the right place, so I will reinforce your third sentence with this old anti-Dominionist quote:

"(W)e shall continue to have a worsening ecologic crisis until we reject the Christian axiom that nature has no reason for existence save to serve man." Lynn White, Jr., "The Historical Roots of Our Ecologic Crisis", Science V. 155 No. 3767 (10 March 1967), pp. 1203-1207.

(on edit fixed HTML formatting)

[McKenzie]

4. spirituality is probably part of our next evolutionary step

I am not a Christian but neither am I an atheist. Unfortunately, language, isn't an adequate medium (no pun intended) for communicating concepts that are felt in spiritual terms so what follows will not be all that lucid. When we try to convey spiritual concepts using text on a computer monitor without the 90+% of other means of communicating with one another that include body language, voice inflection and so on, it gets even worse. I'll try though.

There are all sorts of reasons why faith can be rubbished, including natural disasters, childhood deaths and so on. It's partly for that reason I don't believe in a personal, interventionist god of whatever variety happens to be favoured in any given society. I do, however, believe in the ability of humans to act in both good and evil ways...those concepts can be challenged as relative, of course. Nevertheless, I believe we have an innnate spirituality within us for a very good reason. Quite possibly it is part of our next evolutionary step given that we have evolved physically as far as we are likely to go. Developing the spiritual aspect of our nature is quite likely to open our minds with huge benefits...that's what spirituality is there for...it's the next step along the road.

I'm not introducing god via the back door here. Nor am I promoting Christianity, or any other religion for that matter (see footnote). Quite apart from which the stifling way in which the conventional, western churches practice their beliefs is a travesty of the truly spiritual dimension within humanity.

It is this vague term "spirituality" that lies at the heart of the matter. Some might just call it introspection. Nevertheless, I believe spirituality is the yin, to the yang of logic and we ignore that our peril. Eastern mysticism deals with that very well and practioners have long known that when one of the two, complimentary aspects of human nature are out of balance with one another other bad things happen. A neat illustration of this is the heavy slant towards masculine values in our society and within the male of the species per se. We all have masculine and feminine traits but conventional wisdom plays down the feminine side in the male with sorry results. At government level we have the stupidity of warfare that any truly spiritual society would never allow to happen in the first place. At the level of the individual male we lose so much by denying the feminine side.

I am spiritual and always have been. It brings me great inner peace even though I have no belief in an after life in the context of a survival of the self. More likely the tiny spark that is within me will just go back to the much bigger whole it is part of. Quite what that whole is I don't know but I feel it inside me.

If one accepts that all species get those attributes that help to ensure their survival we have a strong spiritual dimension for a very good reason and we ignore it at our peril. Natural selection didn't put it there because the history of evolution is largely one of competition so spirituality is unlikely to have been shoved in somewhere along our crawl out of the primordial mud. It comes from somewhere else and we don't live in a way that allows us to even begin to understand what that means...it's something profound I suspect.

Footnote: I have no truck with religion as such.

[toddaa]

42. self delete

oops, wrong post

[tocqueville]

5. Soory but this is nonsense

"The study of Consciousness and Psychology is as old as Humanity or homo sapien sapien. It is, essentially, called Religion..."

complete BS

1) it's sapiens

2) religion is an expression of beliefs relating humans to God(s) or philosophies explaining the universe.

check what materialism is before you talk about it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

many Christians consider that materialism and religion can very well be compatible, specially Catholics.

besides even a "pure" materialist can explain consciousness by pure PHYSICAL phenomena. Other do it by SPIRITUAL means, which doesn't mean that you have to be RELIGIOUS for that.

"The continual attempt of some on the Left to trash that which helps us understand what lies beyond Material Reality is counterproductive to Humanity's greater good."

could you be more specific ? which ones ?

fighting RELIGION as a FAKE attempt to explain MATERIAL processes is healthy, it's the biggest discovery of mankind since fire. It's called SCIENCE and RATIONALISM. It started the Enlightment.

it allows people to discuss and understand CONSCIOUSNESS without looking for a premade "explanation" in some book by a "revealed" prophet. And allows us FINALLY to make real progress for "humanity's greater good".

Many of America's current problems are due to the fact that for historical reasons a lot of people still look in the Bible to understand the world around them.

[Zenlitened]

44. "... It's called SCIENCE and RATIONALISM."

Well-said. :thumbsup:

[Ladyhawk]

6. You claim something non-physical exists.

A person making a positive claim carries the burden of proof. Prove that the spiritual world exists and we can go from there.

I could go on to say that material needs are a part of morality and that morality is largely based on the material needs of people. But that's philosophy, not science. I think we should start with science. So, first of all, PROVE there is something non-material and I'll sit up and take notice. Until then, this is nothing but philosophizing about a non-material basis for morality. I don't need a belief in the non-physical to figure out what is right and what is wrong.

[KittyWampus]

9. Reality has been proven through both theorem & experiment to be non-local

Reality is not dependant on physical space.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Proven by science.

All Bell's Theorem proves to me is that ideas like 20th century "common sense" are becoming as outmoded as the simplistic (and proven utterly wrong, time and again) descriptions of reality offered up by Western Religion over the past several thousand years.

[KittyWampus]

32. Experiments have proven you can effect one particle by altering another

particle that exists in a completely seperate space without any physical intervention of any kind.

[Warren DeMontague]

37. I'm aware of bell's theorem, although the implications of it

are far from agreed upon or understood.

http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/GeneralInterest/Harrison/BellsTheorem/BellsTheorem.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem

Einstein called it "spooky action at a distance", and yes, experiments seem to have validated it. Recently.

But to even start to try to understand quantum interconnectedness, you need to understand quantum physics. The copenhagen interpretation. The Heisenberg Uncertainty principle.

None of those have jack diddly squat to do with "God" or "Religion".

[BrklynLiberal]

7. Is this is supposed to be a response to this thread?

Religion is Dangerous to Our Health Says New Study

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5070282

[bloom]

10. I pretty much agree with that.

It seems like psychology can be seen as a way of helping people connect to each other. There are value judgments about how people should react to each other that are similar to religious values.

The exploiting of resources and of people - I see as extremely negative. That is the kind of value judgment that has been addressed in religions - but then some organized religions encourage exploitation also.

It's the kind of thing - that if everyone could agree through religious or intellectual means - that the exploiting of resources and of people should be avoided (in a "golden rule" or sort of way) - that would seem like a positive for the world and humanity.

It seems like a lot of liberals believe that.

To me - the ones that don't seem more like Republicans.

Like the Neal Boortz's of the world: "We should save the rich people first," Boortz declared. "You know, they're the ones that are responsible for this prosperity."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5064898

[TahitiNut]

11. I need an oil change.

My God valve is clogged. :silly:

[Kailassa]

12. Attempts by believers to criticise others creates non-believers.

Any society that denies Consciousness exists as an influential part of our personal and shared existence is ignoring the submerged section of the iceberg.

Nobody denies consciouness. The existance of consciousness is irelevant to a discussion of religion or spirituality, as consciousness depends on neither of these for its existance.

The belief that humans are nothing more than things lies at the base of enslaving others.

According to the bible, god directed the Israelites to take slaves. Christian missionaries did a great deal to facilitate the trade in Negroes for slaves, and the slave owners were proudly Christian.

The belief in Nature as nothing more than stuff to be used at will lies at the base of using natural resources without restraint or consideration of environmental impact.

And is this why there are so many "christians" in the republican party and atheists amongst the greens? It is self interest that causes people to ruin the environment, and there has never been a connection shown between atheism and self interest.

The belief that physical matter is all that comprises our bodies lies at the base of a medical system that relies almost soley on chemical medication and ignores behavioral modification.

Well duh, our bodies are comprised of physical matter.
Modern medicine was the golden haired child of the Catholic church, and was a reason for many of the witch-burnings. As the drug companies work to eliminate competition these days, the witches were eliminated for being natural healers, who the villagers trusted more than the early doctors.
The use of behaviour modification has never needed a system of belief to support it, merely studies and experiments which mean the same to an atheist as to a believer.

There is an infinite source of power available to us all in Consciousness... but it is lost as long as humans insist on limiting their understanding of Life within the narrow coffin of Materialism.

That's nice, show it to me. I hope it's cheaper than electricity. ;-)

The study of Consciousness and Psychology is as old as Humanity or homo sapien sapien. It is, essentially, called Religion. Freud didn't invent Psychology and only barely approached the basics of Mental Science. But at least in using Greek Mythology for some of his terms... he gave us a true measure of the Truths hidden within older thought systems and philosophies.

Not true. Religion began with the natural healers making up explanations for the healing which gave them power over the tribe. Practical psychology was used as a way to influence people and gain more power, just as both political groups and religions do these day.

The continual attempt of some on the Left to trash that which helps us understand what lies beyond Material Reality is counterproductive to Humanity's greater good.

Questioning a belief system, and being sceptical of claims about the availability of infinite sources of power are not trashing anything. Blackmailing tactics such as saying that questioning is counterproductive to Humanity's good are no different to the blackmail we get from Repuglicans, saying that American boys are dying because we question the war.

[BrklynLiberal]

13. Well said.

:applause:

[Kailassa]

17. Sometimes it's just too tempting not to. ;-)

These days it seems to be people trying to further their own beliefs who most successfully put other people off believing anything. I have beliefs of my own, but I still object thoroughly to anyone telling people what to think or believe. Any belief is just that, a belief; it can be wrong. All that should matter to another person is that one is endeavouring to do more good than harm.

[FM Arouet666]

15. Thanks, I was going to go line by line but I was too lazy

You made some good points....:evilgrin:

[jonnyblitz]

19. great post!

:thumbsup:

[FM Arouet666]

14. What a hoot.....

"Limiting our understanding of life within the narrow coffin of materialism." You seem very passionate about what you are posting, so I will attempt to be non-confrontational.

What evidence do have to offer for something beyond the material world? I fail to understand your line of thinking which establishes a need for a supernatural.

[Beam Me Up]

16. Reference point: On the transmission of sacred knowledge:

What little we can understand about the transmission of the great spiritual traditions of the past shows us that this bridge of sacred psychology -- or "method" -- is far from easy. Men seem to have experienced it more as a swaying footbridge over a ravine that one crosses with nothing to hold to and with only one's guid going behind. Yet the determination required to move onto and across this bridge is, we may surmise, a human possibility. One senses this in the records left by extraordinary men such as Milarepa and Saint Augustine, which move us so deeply precisely because we feel that their struggle could be ours.

In modern times, for some reason, Western religion allowed this bridge to fall, with nothing to take its place. Ideas were presented merely as dogma, and the fragments of method that survived somehow seemed suddenly to be placed along with these ideas on the far side of the chasm. Men were urged to leap fantastically.

But only the mind can leap fantastically, leaving the body behind with who knows what subtle energies locked inside of it. Men were given no help to search for their natural attraction to reality. Instead they were threatened, bullied, or persuaded. "Hypnotized," perhaps, is not too strong a word.

I think modern science was born as a reaction to this hypnosis. That its pragmatic success soon led it to constructing a subhuman metaphysics ought not to blind us to the sacred impulse that originally fed it: the wish to know reality for oneself. I take all true skepticism to be the search for a quiet center within the mind that can resist the pull of subjective opinion, mechanical logic, and authoritarian belief. Nearer to that center of the mind, it seems that a double certainty appears -- the certainty that it is humanly possible to know reality directly and the certainty that there are infinitely higher levels of being to be served beyond and within the human frame. Thus does a form of faith arise alongside the rejection of belief. By faith I mean a miraculous quality of certainty.

Jacob Needleman Forewrd to "The Sword of Gnosis" pp 16-17.

emphasis added by BMU

[Kailassa]

20. Wow, this was your 3333rd post !!!!!

I had the impression, BMU, you were too much of a sceptic to post something like this. As the last few sentences really spoke to me, I'm curious just what your take on it is.

[Beam Me Up]

22. Reply:

It is something of a revelation to begin to understand that consciousness in us is not a given, nor a constant. That, in effect, consciousness can have qualitatively different states. See the second Needleman quote in post 18 below.

As for the "miraculous quality of certainty" Needleman is pointing toward, I've found it to be true. I can say without any inner doubt that "I know." Moreover, I see that this "knowing" has certain consequences for my life -- however fragmented my embodiment of it may be. The work seems to be toward allowing this inner perception to come more in contact with all the fragments of myself, including my body and the life it is living.

But I'm not interested in trying to "convince" anyone of anything. Questions are far more important than answers, as they are a driving force that moves the attention. The miracle is that words can speak to us and awaken something in us that is more real than the words.

:hi:

[Kailassa]

26. There is also a miraculous quality to uncertainty.

Yes, when those words are written humbly by a perceptive person who has struggled to understand themselves, we're left free to share in what he says.

I've always had an awareness of something that goes beyond any religion. When I first saw the word: "numinous" I was thrilled to realise I was not alone in my knowlege of something I had no words for. But it was already apparent that it was the odd, the lonely, who I could talk to about this, (growing up in an indigent family in red-neck towns,) and not the churchgoers. And definitely not the local minister who warned me that the devil was going to catch me.

My biggest gripes against religion these days are twofold. Firstly that so much irrational hot air is produced that any rational person listening is pushed to dismiss all spirituality along with the religion. Ans secondly, any religion claiming to be the only way to get to heaven disgusts me. I've been there, a general anaesthetic went wrong and I flew up yonder and was determined not to come back; there were no barriers, no angels with flaming swords, just a brilliant, welcoming love.

I was left with no doubt that the only "religion" a person needs is love in their heart. Striving for understanding and trying to live by ones ideals is enough in this world.

:pals:

[BrklynLiberal]

28. wow.. just "wow". I am in awe of you and BMU.

"Questions are more important than answers."

"any religion claiming to be the only way to get to heaven disgusts me"

..and there is so much more to learn

:hi:

[Kailassa]

40. awww, *cutesy blushes* ;-) n/t

[Beam Me Up]

33. You are absolutely right.

There is a miraculous quality of uncertainty.

What in me is capable of being either certain or uncertain? Do I know that I am? But, even here, what is this 'I'; how does it 'know' or how--or from what--does it question?

The mind is very good at conjuring all sorts of thoughts and questions around which they can preoccupy themselves for hours--sometimes whole lifetimes. Perhaps this is necessary, unavoidable, but invariably it becomes a prison for the soul. It usually takes something more immediate--some sort of shock such as having to face the death of a loved one, or perhaps my own death--to cut through the 'words in the head' to the immediacy of what actually is.

My life is determined by what I give my attention to;
The quality of my life is determined by the quality of my attention to it.

Attention is the key.

[Kailassa]

39. You inspired me so much ...

that I just had to explore the miracle of uncertainty
and concentrate all my attention
on something designed by its bounteous creator
to bring joy to our lives.

A box of Lindt chocolates tastes so good, eaten in the dark.

See, I even saved you some. :-)

[Beam Me Up]

41. OMG!

They're very tempting but I suggest you have the rest for me. My waistline is already out of control. Thanks though!

:hi:

[KittyWampus]

45. you deserve those chocolates for posting that book though. I've been

searching for a good read that would help me expand my linguistical and conceptual "bag of tricks" and your suggestion sounds really helpful.

[Beam Me Up]

46. "Sword of Gnosis" is out of print. Can be found, though.

Keep in mind that Needleman edited the book which is a compilation of criticisms of Western contemporary thought by Traditionalists such as Guenon and Burckhardt.

If you are interested in Needleman's ideas, I recommend the book mentioned in a post below: "A Sense of the Cosmos." "Lost Christianity," is another of Needleman's books that has a very interesting perspective on the 'religious' question.

[Beam Me Up]

18. Reference point: On our definition and understanding of "consciousness":

...a new experience of one's self tempts us to believe we have discovered the sole direction for the development of consciousness, aliveness or--as it is sometimes called --presence. The same machinery of explanatory thought comes into play accompanied by pragmatic programs for "action." It is not only followers of the new religions who are victims of this tendency, taking fragments of traditional teachings which have led them to a new experience of themselves and building a subjective and missionary religion around them. This tendency in ourselves also accounts, as we shall see later, for much of the fragmentation of Modern psychology, just as it accounts for the fragmentation in the natural sciences.

In order to warn us about this tendency in ourselves, the traditional teachings--as expressed in the Bhagavad-Gita, for example--make a fundamental distinction between consciousness on the one hand and the contents of consciousness such as our perceptions of things, our sense of personal identity, our emotions and our thoughts in all their color and gradations on the other hand.

This ancient distinction has two crucial messages for us. On the one hand, it tell us that what we feel to be the best of ourselves as human beings is only part of a total structure containing layers of mind, feeling and sensation far more active, subtle and encompassing (like the cosmic spheres) than what we have settled for as our best. These layers are very numerous and need to be peeled back, as it were, or broken through one by one along the path of inner growth, until an individual touches in himself the fundamental intelligent forces in the cosmos.

At the same time, this distinction also communicates that the search for consciousness is a constant necessity for man. It is telling us that anything in ourselves, no matter how fine, subtle or intelligent, no matter how virtuous or close to reality, no matter how still or violent--any action, any thought, any intuition or experience--immediately absorbs all our attention and automatically becomes transformed into contents around which gather all the opinions, feelings and distorted sensations that are the supports of our secondhand sense of identity. In short, we are told that the evolution of consciousness is always "vertical" to the constant stream of mental, emotional and sensory associations within the human organism, and comprehensive of them (somewhat like a "fourth dimension"). And, seen in this light, it is not really a question of concentric layers of awareness embedded like the skins of an onion within the self, but only one skin, one veil, that constantly forms regardless of the quality or intensity of the psychic field at any given moment.

Thus, in order to understand the nature of consciousness, I must here and now in this present moment be searching for a better state of consciousness. All definitions, no matter how profound, are secondary. Even the formulations of ancient masters on this subject can be a diversion if I take them in a way that does not support the immediate personal effort to be aware of what is taking place in myself in the present moment.

Jacob Needleman: "A Sense of the Cosmos" pp 21-22

My bolding BMU

[Kailassa]

25. "our secondhand sense of identity"

It has alway seemed to me that one's perceptions of who one is can be the hardest prison to break out of.

I wonder what really happens in a person's head when they are brought up within such a strong belief system that the belief has been layered into the deepest places in their psyche, yet they have the intelligence to inevitably register proofs that their beliefs don't hold water. I guess they would inevitably be unable to tolerate the confusion that the disbelief of others would engender, unless they could convince themselves they were so superior to the unbeliever that the disbelief could be dismissed as having no value.
(This part was not in reply to you, BMU, my fingers start musing of their own accord when I'm sleepy. ;-) )

[Az]

21. Your issue is not with materialists

Materialism can allow for social natures of humans and in so doing encompass our interconnectedness as well our compassion for one another.

Your issue is with an old school application of Objectivism. Namely the Ayn Rand style. And it is much out of style.

There is no merrit to your claim. Modern science well understands the complexity of the mind. We are able to comprehend that the mind arises from a physical thing and come to value the mind above and beyond the basic components of the body.

Your claim of materialisms callousness is a strawman. I consider you a person and not just some thing.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. In other news, four Amish kids just came down with polio.

Perhaps the assorted anti-vaccination crusaders here missed it. Yes, curses to that dag blam "medical system that relies almost soley (sic) on chemical medication"!

Your theses are a pantload. One could just as easily say that it was belief in the western male concept of "God" that has led to things like slavery and environmental degradation. Slavery is IN the Bible- so, what science book is it in?

I really don't know what your point is. Believe what you want, I'll be highly surprised if anyone here tells you not to.

Do I personally think strict materialism is the be-all and end-all? No. But I come to my beliefs in that regard through an understanding and ACCEPTANCE of science and the scientific method, not rejection of them in favor of the kinds of dogmas which led to witch burning. To say that only "religion" has any sort of a lens to look at things like consciousness and its interactions with what we consider reality displays a stunning lack of knowledge about subjects such as quantum physics. You call "materialism" a narrow coffin, but I'd rather be stuck in THAT one than inside the "we'll give you the answer before you even formulate the question" coffin known as "religion". But more importantly, I don't give a flyin' philadelphia fuck WHAT other people choose to believe, insofar as they are able to leave me and my children (and my children's public school science classes) out of it.

But if you want kudos for tilting against the windmill of modern science ... when bass-ackwards fundamentalism, superstition, neo-luddism and god-squad-jihads are the source of a SHITLOAD of the misery the world is currently experiencing, you're certainly not going to get them from me.

[Zhade]

27. Prove your unevidenced assertions.

I've asked for proof many times, you've never supplied it.

Pony up.

[BrklynLiberal]

29. yoo-hoo. Where are you? There are some questions here you need to answer.

:shrug:

[Jim__]

30. You make a lot of assertions.

You offer not one whit of evidence.

[neebob]

31. How does religion help us understand what lies beyond material reality?

Serious question, operative word being understand. And who's denying that consciousness exists as an influential part of our personal and shared existence?

[Cats Against Frist]

34. And there's a difference between the philosophical abstract

of a "non-materalist" state of consciousness, and actual "supernatural" phenomenon, i.e. creator, etc. If one actually believes in the existence of a god, then that is a material god, no? If not, then this whole "C"onsciousness thing, could simply be an abstract idea, no?

In some ways, it seems like you're arguing for a material reality for your abstract ideas, while trashing "material reality."

What exactly is it that you're trying to sell -- the "idea" of an material-driven alt "consciousness," or actual paranomal phenomenon?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Religion is antithetical to knowledge and "consiousness".

All one has to do is go to virtually any church, temple, mosque, and pay attention to what is being preached. One must "believe", "have faith in", whatever method of controlling the universe is being sold.

Or, to quote one of those "ancient philosophies": "When ritual arises, the Tao (consciousness) is absent."

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

36. ...

Time Cube

Makes just about as much sense.

[Zhade]

38. No evidence, then?

Why am I not surprised?

[toddaa]

43. Psuedoscience and wishful thinking

Cognitive science is still in a very rudimentary stage, but it's starting to scare the hell out of the dualists like you because everything you've ever believed is now being explained away. At some point in the next hundred years, your quaint spiritual dualist view of consciousness will be relegated to the dustbin of pseudoscience nonsense taking its rightful place alongside creation science, phrenology, and orgone energy.

Put this on your list of books to read. Darwin's Dangerous Idea by Daniel C. Dennett.

[really annoyed]

47. Oh Please

I don't know what you are trying to achieve with your hostile posts toward non-believers. We're liberals too - we are not your enemy.