The power of prayer...

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

Or the luck of the draw?

I have prayed for good things for good people many times while I believed in it. Gave up on it 20 years ago... I attribute it to growing up.

Yet, so many here in DU and in Freeperland believe in it wholeheartedly. If it worked, wouldn't we live in a better world today?

I have people in my family who believe in it with little reservation and they are people I love and respect, but this one faction of their belief system leaves me wondering.

Want to discuss?

[MazeRat7]

1. Prayer helps people accept inevitable probability

When things go in their favor... eureka, their prayers are answered. When they don't... they pray harder or conclude it was not "god will" (as if a god needs a will). Its a part of the human need to exert their "will" and be in control. While beneficial to our daily perception of happiness, ultimately its not very useful.

MZr7

[H2O Man]

2. I was taught

that prayers should be of thanks. In the world where I am from, we express our gratitude. I also like one of the sayings from the gospels, where Jesus says, "Your will, not mine."

The world is actually a good place. I say that in full recognition that there is much that is indeed terrible from our perspective. Yet the world is not on a journey to become perfect (humanity may be), but rather, is perfect now. Everything is as it should be, or it wouldn't be. And I am thankful for that.

[Ron Green]

4. DING DING DING ...

I love your answer. You know, if you were God, would you rather have someone saying, "Please, gimme this, do this for me, please, huh?" Or would you rather hear, "Yeah, thanks, this is wonderful, I love this life, You da Man!!!"

I think I'd smile upon the latter.

[Mountainman]

13. I think god or goddess want us to be happy and is happy to give us what we

want. I see nothing wrong in asking for what we want and need. It is also nice to be greatful for getting it.

God is on our side.

[annabanana]

5. yes

"as it was in the beginning" has a new meaning with the revealing physics of infinite contiguous realities..(timewise)

or am I nuts

[H2O Man]

8. "be here now"

It is always "as it was in the beginning." And you are not "nuts, Annabanana, though in our sometimes sick society, healthy people tend to ask themselves that very question!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

6. Succinct, my friend.

Very much the way I was taught and the way I would like it to be.

If our government and business icons felt the same way, this would indeed, be a wonderful world.

[Zynx]

27. Very good. Prayers for success and the like are requests based on

greed or fear.

[Just Me]

42. I call that perspective,...."peace".

I basically hold the same perspective,...but, allow myself to become distracted and entangled in all the other stuff created by the human psyche.

Nevertheless, I know down deep that, somehow, whether because of or in spite of ourselves, everything is unfolding precisely as it should.

[lakemonster11]

51. I think it's dangerous to pray for specific things.

I think we can never know what's best for us, so if we pray, say, to get a certain job or a certain SO, we might get what we want, even if it's not what's best for us.

I think the best prayer is "guide me." (And, of course, "thanks.")

[proud patriot]

3. In Native American philosophy

"thought/belief, manifests reality"

[Mountainman]

12. I really agree with that. It works for me.

I told some people that today. It is also like visualization. Visualize what it is you want or how you want it to be and you put in motion that what needs to happen to make it come to you. It is a hard thing for many people to do.

As in the movie South Pacific, If you don't have a dream, how you going to make a dream come true.

[H2O Man]

14. "What you think,

you become." -- Gandhi

[BeTheChange]

20. My take..

There is power in prayer. Even if it is only the culling in your own mind and heart of everything in your life except what is truly important to you.

Some people chuckle when a pastor says that you have to open you hands to recieve.. they think that it is a shucksters advertising ploy that is trotted out right before an offering. But I do think that we need to give to recieve... money, time, love, attention, service, respect honor. I think so many of us hold onto our desires and hurt so tightly, fists balled, that we cant recieve healing. Healing from the earth, from time, from fresh air, human interaction... God.

I know that my prayers are heard and that wisdom is given to me to enable the desires of my heart through meditation upon them. My God isnt meddlesome but I like talking to him and He nods and listens.

[jody]

7. I don't believe that incantations can negate the laws of nature as we know

them or as they will be known.

I am however, open to the possibility of forces beyond our comprehension that can tilt the odds in a way favorable to a desired outcome.

I am also open to the possibility that we might be able to see/predict/etc. the future in some way that reinforces the notion that our prayer/incantation is answered.

Like many people, I hope that there is something beyond this mortal existence for each of us, a nothing in infinity and eternity.

In like way, I hope that we are not the only intelligent beings in the universe and other universes/dimensions that might exist. If we are, nature has played a very cruel joke.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

11. God damn it, Jody... Quit knocking down my predisposed versions of

pro-gun people. Don't you know that I am supposed to believe you are all cretins? Posts like this might make me have to re-evaluate my thought processes!

Gawd, I hate that!

Other than that, you posted a really great post and very well said. :toast:

Love ya' guy! Even when we differ in some areas, we got to stick together as Dems!

[jody]

17. I expect over a cup of coffee or a beer, you might find we have more

in common than issues on which we disagree. :pals:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

18. LOL... You got it, bubba!

I hink you are very much correst on this.

[Mountainman]

9. This is how it is with me. I have a relationship with my higher power.

I got this way by going to AA and sobering up. One of the things I learned was to turn over to my higher power things that I could not deal with or situations I could not handle. I had a god box. It was a closed box that had a slit on the top. When ever I wanted to turn something over I wrote it down on a piece of paper and put it in the box and forgot about it. Things then tended to work out in a good way for me. I stopped worrying about things and turned them over. It takes a lot of trust or faith to do that. For example, I lost a job making good money. I got another one through a temp agency but was making a lot less. I could not keep up with my bills. I worried and worried about it and did all that I could to find a better paying job. Then I decided to stop worrying about it and to turn it over. Very shortly there after I got my present job making more than I did on the job I lost. Turning things over is my prayer. I also speak it out loud in privacy. I live in the mountains and Indians here use to talk to the mountains. I do the same thing. I go high up on a mountain and talk to the mountains and tell them what I want and need and ask for it. I almost always get it. I also ask for help for other people.

Now this has been happening to me for over 20 years. I have so many incidents that it would take all day to tell. I call them miracles or what ever.


I don't try to make other people do what I do or tell them how to run their lives. If they ask I tell them and leave it at that. I don't care what other people think about me or what I do.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

15. I went to AA as well and spent seven years without a drink...

Never did the "god box" and never could agree with the higher power thing.

I started drinking again after a break-up with another AA'er several years ago and life is better than ever before.

People used to pay for me to be a speaker at conventions and I finally got tired of the hypocrisy and gave it up completely. AA helped me out considerably in my life and if you feel you need it, by all means, you need to continue attending. I don't know if I am the exception or the rule, but the fact that they claim to be secular always grated on me especially upon reading the "chapter to the agnostic." Why don't they go as far as to have a "Chapter to the Atheist?"

Because at the time Bill Wilson wrote the book, an Atheist was one step lower than a Communist. He was a repug/libertarian from the word go. IMHO, he started a cult and not a treatment.

Today, courts sentence people to attend these meetings that infer only GOD can cure their ills. That is wrong.

OTOH, I do like the idea of attracting by attraction rather than promotion. Unfortunately, this thought has been changed by courts forcing attendance.


:peace:
\

[hootinholler]

22. IMHO, he started a cult and not a treatment.

Ah, yes sir. 'Tis a fine line betwixt religion and cultism, and perhaps psychotherapy.

My prayers tend to be prayers of thanks and prayers for life's force to submit to my will. But then again I belong to the church of me, or perhaps the religion of all living things.

When I hunt or fish, I respectfully ask for volunteers. I tell them why I'm there.

When I work with wood, if I seek the tree, I again ask for volunteers stating my purpose. I find myself apologizing to store bought boards for not having had the opportunity to volunteer.

Am I a cult? Am I insane? Maybe, but fuck it, I'm me.

I'm surprised that no one has challenged the AA sentence.

-Hoot

[jody]

23. AA and other similar groups have helped people with problems. For that

reason, I will not demean their belief if that is the aid they need to get through every day.

Unlike Hercules who was given the task to clean out the Augean Stables, I feel a moral obligation to people who attend AA, etc. not to challenge their beliefs unless I am able to replace them with a solid basis that helps them live in peace with themselves and society.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

32. To me the AA higher power

could easily be a part of ME that I have not accessed before. Or perhaps the power of my body that wants to heal.

I know atheists who do AA successfully.

[Mountainman]

26. I don't attend meetings but I still work the steps

We are not all cut from the same cloth. I think there are many paths to heaven. AA isn't yours and that's fine. It is good for some not so good for others.

[shrike]

38. Addiction is such a hellacious thing

I take the pragmatic approach: if it works, it works.

I've noticed the secular treatment programs that have sprung up. Wonder if they use a similar format to AA, without any higher power references, or if it is a completely different approach.

[Ladyhawk]

10. I especially don't understand why fundies bother to pray.

They believe that "God's Will" will be done no matter what...so why bother praying? If prayer is intercession, is god changing his will? And if he changes his will (or his mind), doesn't that mean he isn't perfect? Only imperfect beings need to change their minds, yet the bible shows god changing his mind and even "repenting" of having done certain things.

Fundy Christians believe that Jews had an old covenant with god and that Jesus brought a new covenant. If god is perfect, why wasn't the old covenant (Old Testament) good enough? Why does there have to be a new covenant (New Testament)?

Prayer is bogus. If someone knows he / she is being prayed for, sometimes there will be a placebo effect. Otherwise, it makes no difference. Maybe it makes the person praying feel better, but since I don't believe in it, I don't benefit that way--or from any placebo effect.

My 2 cents.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

16. I guess it's a Presbyterian thing....

(LOL)...


Love your two cents, dear. They made sense to me.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. I have a thought on this

I have attended some fundie churches as a guest and have some fundie colleagues. I don't think they DO pray all that much. They are very much into the Bible, and understanding what the Bible says they should do. They do the group thing and hold hands a lot but I don't know how rich the private, personal prayer life is of many fundamentalists. I am of the impression the fundamentalist faith is more a group endeavor, that is has a strong social side to it. The fundies I know are rather focused on changing the world to meet what they see as a vision of a Godly world. They are into acts rather than contemplation.

I am stereotyping to a certain extent, but these are things I have noticed. I do have one fundamentalist friend who keeps a prayer notebook, one page for each family member...she keeps their picture on the page, and special thoughts and verses that help her with her private prayers. I admire that. I don't do it, however. But I believe she is the exception in that arm of the faith.

[Ladyhawk]

28. I grew up fundy and we prayed all the time about everything.

Fundies think they have a "personal relationship with Jesus" and that nothing is too insignificant for prayer. In fact, we were taught that anything we asked for in his name would be granted to us. So the fundies I know are always asking for stuff, including wealth. Remember that "prayer of Jabez" thing that went around a couple of years ago? Some fundies are into the "health and wealth" gospel. I was even taught that it was a sin to be sick because if I had enough faith and prayed to God, he would heal me.

There was nothing too insignificant for prayer. While stalking bullfrogs as a child, I thought praying to Jesus would help me be just that much faster than the frog. :) Funny, but it didn't work too well. I always figured I hadn't been a good enough girl, so I would try to bargain with God: "God, if you let me catch this frog, I'll be a good girl for the rest of my life. I'll never tell a lie..." etc.

Yeah, fundies are forever asking their buddy Jesus for things. My voice teacher even instructed an agnostic friend of mine to ask Jesus to help her find a new car. :eyes: He's jes' my pocket savior...I gots me a pers'nal relationship wit' Jesus, I do! He'll gimme anything I ask fer if I have 'nough faith, he will! :eyes:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

30. Well, so much for THAT theory

thanks for setting me straight!

[Ladyhawk]

55. Fundies are strange critters. :D n/t

[shrike]

39. That's silly

I'll have to agree with you there. As I said in my below post, I don't pray for things.

[progressivebydesign]

44. I asked my uber religious Sister in Law about football games.

I asked her, since she is all about praying for everything.. and EVERYTHING is a sign from God, about football games. I said.. when people on one side are praying for their team and the people on the other side are praying for their team, one team wins and one loses. Does God prefer one team over the other?? I asked her this seriously because you see people praying at games all the time! She said it's about a "personal relationship with the lord" and you're not supposed to ask for things like that, but rather ask him what he wants to give you and accept that.

She and my brother in law are pretty close to be insane with this stuff. EVERYTHING is a sign. They are paralyzed completely in their lives because they think God has to talk to them to get them to make any decision. They came to visit to decide if they should relocate where we live. As we talked about their relocation, a distinct beam of sunlight came streaming in through the window on a cloudy day, landing directly on them... I joked that it was obviously a sign, as we all noticed how unbelievably God like it looked. There were several other "signs" that week, but they chose to say that God didn't really speak to them or show them the way, so they went home. Brother in law took a really crummy job and is miserable back at home, and they just keep saying it was God's will.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

19. Very good question

I have a rather unusual perspective on the spiritual things in life. I believe they are all based in a science we have not yet begun to understand. Think about it. Radio waves. Invisible. A thousand years ago we had absolutely no idea, no concept. I think prayer works with a power that we don't understand and I don't think it has a whole lot to do with a guy on a throne in a nightgown with a long white beard. I've read some very interesting studies (sorry, no links) that were blind studies where prayed-for plants did better than non, etc. Evidence is piling up that there is a power, perhaps even a consciousness that we do not understand. This is a great site that discusses the phenomenon of global consciousness: http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

Some see prayer as superstition. I see it as science yet discovered.

AND IF NONE OF THAT TURNS OUT TO BE TRUE we DO know the benefit of quiet times, meditation, on our own personal well being. So at the very least prayer helps the prayer.

I can honestly say that I have never prayed for something and felt the time was poorly spent. I can't ever remember my prayers not being answered to my satisfaction, but I am choosy about what I pray for. (No lottery numbers!)

[KittyWampus]

25. In Meditation We Are In An Alpha State

[KittyWampus]

24. IMO, Prayer Is Channeling Energy & Focusing Intent, Both Prerequisites

to effecting Change in the world.

[GreenPartyVoter]

54. Agreed

[FM Arouet666]

29. Nothing fails like the power of prayer.

I don't understand prayer, I have more respect for the gambling addict, the odds of a positive outcome are much better.

In what I do, I see people pray all the time. The whole spectacle looks ridiculous. The squinting of the eyes, the holding of the hands, speaking with such intensity, such authority. "God please grant me....."


The alchemist promised gold from lead, he failed and was forgotten.

The wizard promised magic and power, he failed and was forgotten.

God promised an afterlife and power in prayer, prayer has failed, so remind me again why people still selfishly cling to the hope of an afterlife?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

31. Wow

It really hasn't worked for you, huh?

[FM Arouet666]

33. Damn, I was praying that someone would respond

Probably just evil old statistical chance.... :evilgrin:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

34. You made me smile

and it hasn't been a smiling morning.

Personally, prayer works in my life.

But you are probably too un-Christian for it to work in yours.

/SARCASM

Or so the RW would like us to believe. But actually I don't pray a whole lot. I kind of squeak and groan a bit and say Jesus H. Christ a whole lot and good things just kind of happen.

[bridgit]

35. administered an alternative health survey with specific questions...

as to belief in prayer as a mechanism for relief in a host of physical malady; while many believed in the power thereof, only a few actually indicated having received a benefit when it came to 'curing' serious affliction & continued with traditional therapies per doctor's instruct.

but it is clear enough, that ones 'head needs to be straight' when it comes to aligning the systems within the body that may then contribute to an internal, or holistic healing. so that if prayer is part of how that is accomplished then prayer is seen as more than "luck", it is a proactive force.

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as if everything is." ~ Albert Einstein

one of the 'mysteries' conveyed to the children of fatima by 'the lady', was that not every prayer is answered. that sincerity is key.
and that as can be the case with, or without prayer, you must chose your thoughts most clearly.

praying for that killer leather sectional we've noticed @ macy's, or a promotion, or opera tickets; to my mind would set-up that pilgrim for a tremendous let-down.

that's when i reach for the IChing B-)

otherwise, with all the destruction of late befallen they not on the evangelical A-list, to blindly admit the power of prayer is to admit that pat robertson is the only one being heard and answered...and i simply have more faith than that.

[shrike]

36. I love the Einstein quote n/t

[shrike]

37. I don't believe in God as Santa Claus

I don't pray for "things." I don't pray much at all, in fact, except to pray for strength. And with all the things that have happened to me, I have had strength. Just can't attribute the whole thing to myself I guess. I'm not THAT good.

Like the above poster says, I also pray to give thanks. This is such an amazing world. I remember looking at the images from the Hubble telescope and saying, "If there's not a God, there ought to be."

[progressivebydesign]

40. Here's my take on the futility of prayer... and the value of it.

Imagine a hospital ward, a children's hospital ward. Two kids are in a room, both are facing life-threatening illnesses. Both families pray.. their friends pray.. they get strangers to pray. One kid dies, the other lives. The family of the child that lives says "God listened to our prayers!!", the other family buries their child and says "I guess God needed another angel". Did one family not pray hard enough? And what about the agnostic child two doors down that recovered miraculously with no prayer?

I suppose it makes people feel better, and is really more about making the people around the person feel better, than healing the person in need. The only issue with prayer for some is that it keeps them from actually making decisions or doing the tough work they need to. You know.. the "let go, let God" crowd. If it makes people feel better, then I"m all for it. If it keeps people from handling their lives and creates a dysfunctional situation for those around them, then I'm against it.

It's like I say.. "If you're late to work, pray to God that you catch the bus, then run like hell to the bus stop!"

[porphyrian]

41. It doesn't work.

If it did, republicans would all have explosive diarrhea right now.

It isn't prayer that has power, it's belief. Prayer healing, Gypsy curses, Voodoo and PCP are all examples of things which can cause what appear to be miracles, but are actually manifestations of the belief of the individual under their influence. The more people you can convince to believe, the more miraculous something appears, either because more people cause it to happen through their belief, or, due to their belief, they see the miracle they are expecting whether or not it exists.

[jane_pippin]

43. Here's how I see it:

I don't pray to "get things." I believe "god" or whatever name you want to use, is in everybody. So for me, "prayer" or "meditation" or "reflection" is a way to calmly think my way through the world rather than praying to something to get something.

I guess what I do is better labeled as a conversation or meditation. If I have a problem I might start out thinking to myself, "oh god help me find the strength to..." but inevitably as I think about what I need strength for I also think about what it is about the problem I'm stuck on. I end up thinking of many possible solutions. If I'm angry with someone, I often end up trying to see things from their side and I get a little less angry and more willing to talk things through with them, or apologize, etc.

When I catch a break or see something beautiful, or if I learn something new from a bad situation, or if I'm just having a good time, I just say "thank you" because I want to appreciate the good things I get to experience while I'm alive.

It reminds me to try to live through love, so I can try to make the world a better place. So I guess I believe in it too, whatever it is.

(I have no idea if that made sense. That's the first time I've ever tried to explain it.)

[Ron Green]

45. It made perfect sense to me.

If there is an infinite and eternal God (which I believe there is), then it would be reasonable to expect we are ALL part of that infinity. And when we are quiet enough within ourselves to commune with the Infinite, then we're hooked up to other people. It's our mis-perception that we are SEPARATE from others that gives us all grief. The truth, it seems to me, is that we are all one, even as our awareness of this waxes and wanes.

[jane_pippin]

46. Well said. Thank you.

I'm going to keep what you said in mind. Especially now, since someone who seems bent on testing my outlook on life just walked into my office. ;)

[Zhade]

47. I think the Power of Cheese is far more powerful.

I mean, cheese is tasty, and there is no evidence prayer does anything more than make those praying and being prayed for feel better emotionally.

Then again, prayer doesn't up the cholesterol if you indulge in it too much...

[madinmaryland]

49. Now I'm hungry and have no cheese.

I'll have to pray that i find some!

[Tactical Progressive]

48. Oh, I don't know. They prayed that their nutcases would take over

the country, and it looks like it worked, against all odds and reasonable, rational people.

[Raksha]

50. Yeah, but it looks like their nutcases are going down...

...in the very near future, so I guess our prayers are working too! Besides, I don't think it was their prayers that got the neoncons in power. It was a 20-25 year long propaganda and disinformation campaign, very well funded by the ultraconserative think tanks. I refuse to attribute any of that stuff to God or to kool-aid drinkers' prayers.

[Tactical Progressive]

52. Well, I was being facetious

but as for them going down, don't count your chickenhawks before they hatch, and that's not facetious. I'm still hoping like every thinking person that Rove and Cheney go down hard, but I won't be surprised to see Cheney skate and Rove get hit with something less than perjury, let alone treason. Maybe something like obstructing justice or impeding an investigation or 'not being forthcoming'. Some bullshit where he resigns to spend time with his family and an eight million dollar a year job with some subsidiary of Carlyle buried five layers deep that nobody knows about. It won't be a happy time here and I can just hear Republicans squealing how George W has 'honor and integrity' and doesn't let crooks stay in the White House like Clinton. Or whatever other insane bullshit their sick, deluded, dishonest minds can fabricate. We all know that both Cheney and Rove should be spending twenty years in Leavenworth like any of us would have to if we'd done anything approaching what they did in their treasonous runup to their illegal war and their treasonous CIA-outing coverup afterwards. Just don't count on it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

53. I believe prayer works. Maybe you don't get what you asked for but I do

think that putting positive vibes out there can result in making a change sometimes.