Got into a big fight with my "liberal" brother and sister-in-law

[Armstead]

In the past. I've recounted my arguments with my siblings, who are both what I'd call moderate liberals. Had another one tonite with my bro and sister-in-law, fueled by too much vino.

It made me realize that the real enemy of our side is not the VRWC, but our own apathy and cynicism.

It started with my briotehr bitching about his job -- company losing work to cheap competitors overseas, driving its workforce harder while cutting pay and benefits, etc.

I innocently asked (rhetorically): "So why do people disagree with liberal policies? That's the kind of shit they're supposed to address."

They lit into me. Went on this tirade about how unions are awful -- because (get this) the unions guys at work have it better than he does. I asked if that maybe ws a reson to support unions, and his wife pipes in about how she sees people directing traffic getting $30 an hours because of unions and how awful that is.

Acording to them, unions are too powerful.

Then I mentioned that regulation of trade could stop the race to the bottom, and again he goes: "How? All the US companies will leave if we do that. It's a competative world and we can;t go back to protectionism."

It got louder and angrier. Finally my brother asked: "So what the fuck are you saying I should do? I vote for people who I think will help, but so what? Nothing else I can do about any of this."

So he will go back to his job resenting his situation, but dismissive of sany chance of changing things.

I didn't really have an answer except to say that if we stop being so accepting of this bullshit, that's where change starts.

My sister in law then accused me of spouting off idealistic nonsense.

It was surrealistic hearing all of this right-wing crap coming out of a couple of people who consider themselves liberal Democrats.

I dunno. I think that's worse than right-wing Republicans. At least conservatives have passion and believe they can make a differnce. Our side is drained and confused and demoralized and ready to roll over and take more slaps to the gut.

And I'm a little drunk and depressed.

[Maple]

1. I believe they're telling you

the old 'solutions' don't work anymore.

[Armstead]

3. Problem is...

they don't see ANY solutions.

You and I can argue here about differences in specific policies in good faith. Even though we might drive each other crazy, at least we're trying to find answers whe we do that.

But the cosmic "There's nothing anyone can do because it's all just too screwed up" like my brother expressed is one that's a complete dead-end. That just empowers the right wing.

[Maple]

6. I didn't say

there is nothing anyone can do.

I said the old solutions, 'join a union' and 'regulate trade' don't work anymore. It isn't the 30's and 40's of the 20th century.

Find some new ones that work in the 21st century global setting.

[Armstead]

10. I didn't say YOU said that

I said my brother did, and he I think is typical.

You and I don't agree on everything on these issues(an undrstatement) but you do believe that it's worth looking for solutions, as do I.

But the mentality my brother represents is that of a whipped dog. And his anger was more at his own sense of impotence. That seems to be the danger facing our side of the spectrum.

[Maple]

14. Yeah, things are chaotic right now

The old ways don't work, and we're slow on the new solutions. We've never met these particular problems before.

So sure people get angry, and they get depressed, and they feel helpless...and they'll vote for anybody new, trying to find a way out.

The thing people most need is some vision and some hope, and a sense that by rolling up their sleeves they can help bring about an entrance into a new era.

[Armstead]

22. I agree with you on that

>>>>The thing people most need is some vision and some hope, and a sense that by rolling up their sleeves they can help bring about an entrance into a new era.<<<

That I agree with. That was basically my original point. The idea that circumstances can be improved is the bottom line. The details flow from that, but must have that notion as a starting point. The problem is that it's so easy to follow the path of least resistance to surrender -- and when too many people do that, the worst has control over the best.

[calm_blue_ocean]

50. My solution . . .

rewrite the federal and state business tax codes so that the amount of taxes a business pays depends primarily on the number of living wage employees the business employs in a state (state taxes) or in the US (federal taxes).

If they want our US Market (and they do), then they can either: (1) employee people; or (2) pay lots of taxes.

I think this would give employees more power even in employment fields where there are no unions.

I wish I heard something like this proposal coming from an actual candidate for office.

[Q]

58. What 'old ways' don't work?

- This sounds like the same claptrap one can find on the DLC website.

- Unions are about much more than trade. They're about collective bargaining and worker's rights in general.

- This 'new era' many are talking about seems to be the era of the corporation and the further enslavement of the working class.

[IrateCitizen]

67. Don't look for solutions from Maple. Maple doesn't have any.

Maple is a propagandist. Maple spouts the same tired claptrap on every thread Maple engages in. Maple only criticizes others ideas and deals in generalities and half-truths.

You're better off just ignoring Maple, or better yet, simply pointing Maple out as the propagandist that Maple is.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

73. yep, "Third Way New Democrats"

Unions and envionrmental and labor protections are "restraints of trade". The only rights worth protecting are property rights. Market fundamentalism for all.

[azrak]

90. My kids are being held hostage by a union

Teachers on strike day 37, still haven't spent ONE day in school. The teachers won't accept anything less than 11% raise over 3 yrs and we get to pay 40k plus per month for their medical.

Might be more sympathetic if we hadn't taken a 20% cut in pay last year. And medical who has medical insurance if you just started your own business?

This in an area that has lost over 5000 high paid jobs in the last 5 years, due to other union strong arm tactics.

It sucks! I love our teachers but the union is bad.

[Jim Sagle]

13. Join a union, and regulate trade.

[Maple]

15. If you want to keep on getting what you're getting,

then keep on doing what you're doing....hmmm?

If it creates a mess in the first place...doing twice as much of it won't help.

[dorktv]

24. Actually Unions can do a lot more if they have the

federal govenment backing them. And the recent reports about the cost/savings of various regulatory laws on the enivronment have shown that regulations DO work.

[w4rma]

98. Joining a union won't work because of free trade that allows

big corporations to move to another country that will provide slave labor.

I don't want to see the U.S. or Canada become a slave labor nation and I don't think you do either, Maple.

You provide some solutions to prevent the loss of jobs and salaries, Maple, and then I'll listen to you. But, until you do, I'm going to support what used to work before free trade.

[NashVegas]

103. Right You Are .. My Solution: Nude Protests On Wall Street

And I've said it before, only half joking.

think of the publicity you'd get if you had 3k-10k people -- without a permit, therefore getting arrested and processed -- simultaneously strip down to protest the fact of all the textile jobs gone overseas, while shareholders & corporate boards rake it in, all the while receiving US taxpayer-funded infrustructure benefits, all the while expecting US consumers (and correct in that expectation, so far, we are doing NOTHING to fight back) to purchase and wear.

You could expand it for farmers and the agribusiness. Nude ITs protest Dell while jobs go to India .. etc, etc. Nothing makes our Puritan populace more uptight than seeing a nude body for reasons that have nothing to do with gratification.

Lady Godiva had the right idea.

[bpilgrim]

5. BRAVE NEW WORLD

is here to stay, eh?

peace

[Maple]

7. The 21st century is, yes.

And since you can't turn back the clock, it might be wise to get with the program.

[JHB]

55. And what program is that, exactly?

If you can't answer that, then while the old solutions may not be the answer, they are a starting point.

[imax2268]

2. Well...

don't feel bad...I was just told on another website that us liberals are bowing down on our knees and praying to God that more soldiers would come home in bodybags...so that BushCo could fail...

I told them both to go to hell...

Don't feel bad man...they will wake up one day and realize what they have to do to make it better...once they look past the denial...they will know what to do...

[RoonShark]

4. Worker Solidarity Is The Answer

Unions represent their members, not the working class. The lack of worker solidarity enables businesses to send jobs overseas. Class consciousness means supporting boycotts of companies that exploit their workers. Management pays certain union workers $30 an hour but is looking for ways to screw them. And they will definitely do that when they get the opportunity!

[Maple]

8. What the hell year are YOU living in??

I haven't heard a speech like that since my long ago childhood!

[Classical_Liberal]

69. It is only the past because they have been weakened

so what year are you living in. 1980? You have no solution but platitudes so I don't care what you say. Since you 3rd way types started cooperating with the right our standard of living is down the crapper.

[el_gato]

70. maple has no anwers other than

bow down before your corporate masters

geez! :crazy:

[Aries]

96. Was that an argument?

In your long-ago childhood did you make more sense?

[critical_thinker2]

9. Tell him to join the union. n/t

[Armstead]

12. I suggested that...

or at least (since he is technically management) recognize the value of the principles of people collectively standing up for their rights.

But he doesn't want to make that connection. He just sees the whole situation as something that's out of control.

[critical_thinker2]

16. Technically Management?

Is that like "alittle pregnant"?

[Armstead]

25. It's a situation where he's a little of both

He's not in the upper echelon and many of his duties are the same as non-management. But his job definition is as managment because he is technically in charge of projects.

[dorktv]

26. Overtime to be cut with Bush's stupid plan?

[Armstead]

27. Was cut before Bush's plan by technicalities

He's basically getting screwed from both ends.

[dorktv]

30. Does he read any?

[Armstead]

34. Actually he's well informed

He reads a lot and follows curent events. But he seems to use the information to reinforce his sense of fatalism, rather than to fuel productive anger.

I think, unfortunately, that's fairly typical. There's just a wall that he's erected as a defense mechanism. Which translates into a disdain for any real idealsim -- although he basically is idealistic.

Tht's what's so frustrating. At least if he were a committed right-winger he'd believe in something. His instincts are basically liberal, but that attitude hands the right wing the victories by default.

[dorktv]

35. Give him Big Lies by Joe Conason and then drag him to a

democratic meeting...Or maybe a Dean meeting (they have LOTS of energy) He needs to see that YES he can help to fix the problem.

[dolstein]

11. I sometimes have mixed feelings about unions too

Particularly public sector unions. It seems as if it's impossible to simply fire an incompetent teacher -- or an abusive police officer. They always seem to end up on extended leave (with pay, of course) and then eventually get reassigned. I also think public sector employees shouldn't be able to strike, period. If there's dispute, it should go to arbitration. If you really want to make people anti-union, have the garbage collectors or the bus drivers go on strike. Yeah, that'll do wonders for the union movement.

[Armstead]

17. Babies and bathwater

(as in we shouldn't throw out one with the otehr).

Unions can be arrogent, abusive and take far too muchg advantage of their position. However, without them -- and equivalent forms of worker protection -- we'll all be heading for a New Feudalism.

All institutions constantly need to have checks and balances on their power. However, reform is not the same as tossing out what are at base necessary institutions.

[dolstein]

21. I'm not talking about doing away with unions

I'm simply saying that (a) public sector unions shouldn't be allowed to strike (any disputes should be submitted to binding arbitration instead) and (b) the provisions of collective bargaining agreements that effectively prevent workers from being fired for incompetence need to be revised. These changes would greatly benefit the taxpayers who pay for the services performed by these workers, but you just know that the unions would fight these changes to the bitter end.

[Armstead]

23. I agree that reform is always needed

Improvements to the system should always be "on the table." But people like my brother seem to look at the worst abuses and dismiss the whole concept because of that.

[bearfartinthewoods]

74. fuedalism or unemployement?

chryler just shut down two more plants iirc. there reason is they cannot compete on price because of wages and benifits. i wish i had saved the link because there was a study showing how much more it cost to build a car in the US than off shore. and the country mentioned wasn't mexico but japan. i'm no expert but i would think we'd be able to compete with japanese workers. the unions are killing the goose when they can't accept that international competition will wipe them off the scene here for manufacturing jobs if they can't deal with wages that are more intune to non union jobs.

[Armstead]

76. Race to the bottom

Japan has always been problematic becaue of the baroque nature of their businesses and interrelationship with government.

But the real issue is how low do we have to go? There is always going to be the "last guy," or the nation that is so poor they will allow literal slave labor to attract industry.

The question is to we want to allow everyone to be dragged down to the level of the 'last guy,' or do we want to think things through and come up with policies that help to bring the last guy up?

That may involve some sacrifices and "sharing of the wealth" by us. But we have to look at the nature of those sacrifices and who they really benefit?

[Maple]

19. Yeah, unions

were a great thing when they started, but like all institutions they peak and then go downhill.

Now, instead of bringing about progress, they're stalling it.

[LeahMira]

75. I disagree...

... were a great thing when they started, but like all institutions they peak and then go downhill.


Delve into your history books and read about the "robber barons" who lived at the start of the twentieth century. Or heck... rent the video of "Norma Rae." If you don't think that U.S. corporations would love to be able to go back to those thrilling days of yesteryear, take a look at "The Big One" and those Nike factories in Indonesia where kids of twelve and thirteen were working for pennies a day. If you think that couldn't happen in the U.S. of A., think again. Maybe you are willing to work for minimum wage in a workplace that is hazardous to your health just so you have some income, remember that most of us are not so willing, and neither do we much like it that anyone in any foreign country should have to do that either.

[IrateCitizen]

77. Don't cloud Maple's picture with facts, LeahMira.

Maple is a propagandist. Your mistake is in trying to actually debate with Maple. Maple is not interested in honest debate. Maple is only interested in trying to knock down the ideas of others, and to spout the same tired mistruths.

I mean, look at the essence of Maple's argument: Unions bad! Welfare bad! Public schools bad! Deregulation good! Corporations good!

You're better off to just point Maple out for the propagandist that Maple is, and simply move on.

[rucky]

101. Tell it to Wal-Mart...or Tyson

Some unions are outdated. Some unions are corrupt. Just some - and about the same level of corruption as any institution. My union keeps me above minimum wage & supplies me with healthcare. I guess I'd be guaranteed overtime, but at our shop, we're lucky to get 30 hours of work. Many of my co-workers are single moms and still qualify for foodstamps. This is with a union. Walmart employees have it much worse.

Unions could serve to guarantee a living wage to the MILLIONS of working poor, but the corporations who employ the working poor are making every end-run possible as their profits rise. The government could do that better than a union, but the administration is doing nothing but help the employers.

Service industries like Tyson and Wal-Mart need to stay in the U.S., but if they could find a way to "in-source" third world labor, you bet they would. Since they can't, they're settling with making second-class citizens out of their workers.

Blame the corporations who see labor as a liability. Blame the administration. If you don't see a need for unions in this climate, then you're not paying attention to the Bushco-led war on working people.

Read UP!
www.ufcw.org

[dorktv]

20. Well the teachers in my state strike before and after

school and they have been screwed more then almost any other state's teachers.

[Q]

59. This is an exaggeration often used by the Republicans...

...to slam unions. It just so happens I've been involved with both teachers and police officers unions and I can tell you it's not true that they're 'impossible to fire'. What you're referring to is a system that can't arbitrarily fire someone...as many RWinger would like to have it.

- Unions can't prevent someone from being fired...but they CAN help prevent them from being fired unfairly.

[IrateCitizen]

61. MYTH #1 -- IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO FIRE AN INCOMPETENT TEACHER

I get so pissed off when I hear this spouted off, and the blame placed at the feet of unions, that I have to counter it at every opportunity.

Both of my parents were public teachers. My wife is one. I am back in school now to become one. The belief held by the public that teachers' unions are responsible for incompetent teachers keeping their jobs is a complete fabrication.

The only thing that TENURE guarantees a teacher is that they CANNOT BE FIRED WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE. That's it!

If the administration is doing their job, and documenting instances of incompetence, then an incompetent teacher can be fired. If you want to lay the blame somewhere for this specific grievance, lay it at the feet of administrators who are not doing THEIR jobs and objectively evaluating (and documenting) the performance of the teachers in their schools.

And FYI, the whole reason that unions FOUGHT for tenure was that in the days before tenure, teachers were summarily let go at the end of the school year and hired back the next fall. Teachers didn't know if they were going to have a job at the end of the summer. Don't believe me? My mom LIVED through that kind of uncertainty at the beginning of her career, and she was one helluva dedicated and talented teacher. But if the daughter of a schoolboard member would have needed a job, she could have been out on her ass.

Perhaps now you'll realize that you've been sold a false bill of goods regarding the influence of teachers' unions.

[Clete]

18. At the supermarket today, one of my

very friendly grocery checkers not only was wearing her "I voted" sticker but also her union button. I asked her if they were going on strike. She said they would be in a lockout as of midnight on Friday. Then she went on to say how important voting was to her family, both in the union and against the recall. She said that not only did she and her husband learn from their families at the kitchen table how important it was to be involved and to vote and how they were imparting those same values to their children.

My god I felt hopeful. There are still old-fashioned bluecollar values alive. I hope they don't get fucked and I will not cross the line at that store. I don't know where I will shop out here in the boonies, but I will try to hunt and gather somewhere.

[Robin Hood]

28. The traffic directors in oregon are making 8 bucks an hour.

What BS world does she live in? With friends/family like that, we don't need any enemies.

[jpgray]

31. There are all sorts of fantasies like this

The crack whore that lives like a queen on welfare, the millionaire traffic director--you ask yourself: where does this nonsense come from?

[dorktv]

32. Right Wing Proganda Machine

[Robin Hood]

36. I know exactly where it is coming from.

We are losing the message war. Or in the case of the repubs, the propaganda war. Ours is a message, theirs is pure twisted propaganda. When will the vitriol tell the masses to round up the liberals, artists, and anyone else who does not support the spew?

I fear that it is coming, Should I stay and fight, maybe take a couple of the bastards with me? or should I just leave to Cananda or Europe as a political refugee?

[dorktv]

38. stay and fight!

[Robin Hood]

42. Hmmm, fight and die today.

Or leave to fight another day?

[dorktv]

43. Dying? They are that out of control?

[Robin Hood]

47. Yeah, you're right.

[lostnfound]

44. WORK HARDER! People on welfare depend on you.

That was a bumper sticker I've been seeing in town lately -- so annoying, so clueless. Almost 50% kids, and they begrudge them a little food?
I ponder:
Work Harder: Children on welfare depend on you.
Work Harder: Lockheed Martin depends on you.
Work Harder: The Pentagon needs your tax dollars.

[Armstead]

52. Work Harder-- Your boss needs a fifth vacation home

Yep, people on welfare and other easy targets for anger obscure what's really happening.

It's frustrating because what's happening is basic common sense, but somehow too many people don;t make the basic connection.

[lostnfound]

92. It goes 'against the flow' too much compared to what they hear ..

in the media and to some extent from each other. Once you start paying attention it sometimes forces you to re-think your ideas about the country and the world and the media.

[jpgray]

29. Like I said in my media thread

People are conditioned now to have a negative knee-jerk reaction to things like unions, public schools, social services and corporate reform. It has been going on for a long time, and the "ooh be scared" tactic has worked well. Unions are the problem, public schools can't work/we're just throwing money away, social services are for crack mothers and babies, corporate reform/rescinding globalist policies will scare all our companies away (good), etc., etc.

There is a positive interest for corporations to build up this reflexive dislike of social empowerment on both financial and educational levels. The corporations own the media, so...? I don't know what to do either--it's very hard to remove the deep-seated notion many have that unions and other liberal pillars are "wrong". It's irritating.

[Maple]

39. Unions are uniquely suited to the industrial era

however, we are no longer living in the industrial era.

Public schools DON'T work. We haven't changed the way we teach kids since Roman times and it shows.

And we can't plan on welfare for the next thousand years...that's horrible planning....it shouldn't be needed at all.

As to companies moving away...yes they can, and you won't think it's 'good' when you're out of a job.

Please do get past this blaming of all the world's ills on shadowy 'corporations'. They are just another boogeyman and scare tactic.

And your dislike of them is preventing YOU from getting past the old ways and doing something new.

[dorktv]

41. Solutions then?

Here in Arizona they have ways of teaching kids that go by visual and hands on type learning...I swear this is true but they actually teach part of biology by having kids butcher a pig and cook it.

[jpgray]

45. Eh, public schools in Europe regularly kick the tar out of our kids

even those in private school. The problem isn't that they're public schools, but that they are mismanaged, and occasionally purposely mismanaged (Leave No Child Behind), public schools.

[jpgray]

46. Ooh and you have some other doozies in there

Welfare shouldn't be needed at all? What sort of perfect world do you plan on having, and how do you plan on having it? People who are in exceptional situations will need that welfare--an impoverished single mother shouldn't have to choose between three crappy jobs and being able to feed her kids. Even if she is able to get the three crappy jobs, she won't be able to raise her kids in any meaningful way.

No one has an answer for why our CEOs earn 411 times more than their average employee and other countries' CEOs earn 28 times, or 14 times more, such as the UK and Germany. There is plenty of money in our economy, but you should take note where it is going. If minimum wage was at its 1950's proportion of GDP, we'd be making something like fifteen an hour. What do we make now? Oh, half that. I wonder why that is? Why is the gap between rich and poor rising? Do you see these things as good? How do you fix them? How much money does our government pour into defense and crony capitalism? How many times greater is that number than the education and social services budget? Who's the boogeyman, now?

You apparently want to go back to the old days--you describe rolling back the precepts of the New Deal to go back to the halcyon days of zero social services, no public education, and corporate deregulation to the point of disasters like the 1913 massacre. You're purdy smart, all right.

:)

[JHB]

60. THIS doesn't work, THAT wonkt work, yada yada yada

Some things may not be working in top condidtion, but before we go tearing them down, we really ought to have a plan for their replacement ready.

Any your replacements are?

[IrateCitizen]

62. Pay no mind, JHB. That's Maple's modus operandi.

All Maple does is criticize others' ideas in condescending terms. Maple does not offer solutions, but rather seeks to maintain a sense of smug superiority. It's useless trying to get an actual solution out of Maple -- I've tried, only to see nothing but tired cliches and soundbites.

Don't waste your time trying to deal with Maple.

[IrateCitizen]

65. Propaganda, propaganda, and more propaganda

Ye gods! I feel like I'm listening to the cliches of the Reagan Administration again!

Welfare bad! Unions bad! Deregulation good! Corporations are our friends!

You can keep on spouting your garbage on these threads, Maple -- always overgeneralizing, never dealing in specifics, and most importantly never offering solutions but always focuses of blame -- but just know that it is apparent that more and more people are aware of your propaganda techniques. And we will always be there to point it out, to expose you to everyone else as the charlatan you are.

[LeahMira]

86. Challenge to Maple...

You can keep on spouting your garbage on these threads, Maple -- always overgeneralizing, never dealing in specifics, and most importantly never offering solutions but always focuses of blame -- but just know that it is apparent that more and more people are aware of your propaganda techniques. And we will always be there to point it out, to expose you to everyone else as the charlatan you are.


It seems you are right, Irate.

Still, I'd like to challenge Maple a bit. I'd not ask Maple what his own solutions might be, but Maple, I'd like to know what you think is missing? If, for instance, you think unions are outdated and counterproductive these days, what is missing in American life that prevents people from feeling that their work is compensated adequately? If you think that the public schools are not working as they should and incompetent teachers are to blame, what is missing in that area?

I hope you understand my question. Sometimes, when friends tell me that they are dissatisfied with the way things are going for them, I don't ask them who is to blame. I ask them what they feel is missing in their lives. So I'm asking you not who's to blame or what the solutions are, but what is missing.

Can you tell me?

[el_gato]

72. and reincorporating overseas so as not to pay taxes

but I guess that's okay with maple because it is the "new" way

[LeahMira]

81. Baloney!!!

Public schools DON'T work. We haven't changed the way we teach kids since Roman times and it shows.

Sorry, but that's just not true. I taught in the public schools for nearly twenty years starting in the mid-1960s. Now I work with student teachers and they are far better prepared to teach than I ever was in terms of diagnosing problems and remediating them, in terms of knowing many approaches for presenting information in the classroom, and in general knowledge about the subjects they will be teaching... to mention only a few aspects in which today's incoming public school teachers excel. Apparently you just haven't been in a classroom for a while. Quite a while. Maybe since Roman times? Sheesh!


And we can't plan on welfare for the next thousand years...that's horrible planning....it shouldn't be needed at all.

Sorry, but unfortunately there are always going to be people who "fall through the cracks"... people who are abused by their spouses, people who are slower learners, people who have serious and unforseen health problems, people who for any number of reasons will find themselves unable to manage either short-term or long-term. These folks are human beings, with all the same rights and dignity that you have. If, heaven forbid, you should find yourself injured in a traffic accident and unable to continue to provide for your family, I will be more than willing to pay my share of whatever you need by way of welfare... health care, home nursing care, food stamps, low-cost housing... whatever. I would hope that you would be willing to treat others in the same way as you would wish to be treated.


As to companies moving away...yes they can, and you won't think it's 'good' when you're out of a job.

FYI, small businesses are truly the backbone of this nation. The corporations are eating up the "mom and pop" businesses by undercutting their prices and then eventually moving their corporate operations offshore... although their outlets are still here. I enjoy doing knitting and crocheting and macrame... that sort of thing. Used to be that there were several stores in the area where I could go and find a large selection of products from which to choose. These days, about the only place around is Michael's... a large sort of craft warehouse kind of place. The selection of yarns is limited, the selection of macrame cord is almost non-existent, the prices are no less than what the small businesses used to offer and sometimes way inflated, and I am one unhappy camper these days. I would be only too happy to see Michael's move away and see a return of the smaller stores, locally owned and operated, that employed local people and offered a good selection of quality products. I imagine that anyone here could give similar examples in areas of their own interest. So please... we can live without the big companies and monster corporations. None of us will get rich, but the corporations aren't going to make anyone like you or me rich either.

[IrateCitizen]

82. Don't confuse Maple with facts, LeahMira. Maple isn't interested in them.

Maple is a propagandist. Notice how Maple never posts anything substansive, but rather deals only with broad generalities. Notice how when pressed for specifics, Maple only responds with MORE generalities and mistruths.

Maple is not interested in serious, thoughtful debate. Maple is interested in spreading propaganda. You can continue to do us all the favor of pointing out the fallacies in Maple's propaganda, but don't expect Maple to be willing to take place in a meaningful debate. That's not Maple's style -- or objective.

[messiah]

33. I've

been reading your messages for around two 1/2 years on DU and I have considered you and others to be lefty allies of mine. You need to suck it up and move on.
I'll finish this later I am drunk also:toast:.

[Armstead]

37. Alas, one can;t move on from one's relatives

If he were at least a right-winger I could write his opinions off as delusional foolishness. But he's more enlightened than thhat, which is why we continue this battle. I guess it's a case of "so near yet so far."

Cheers (clink)

[lostnfound]

40. Join the club! Me too!

I just posted a similar thought in the lounge: "Yet the most demoralizing, depressing part of it isn't the weirdos in Washington. And it's not even the casual friend or the sibling that votes for Bush that most disturbs me and makes me lose hope.

No, it's actually the close friends -- the seeming-soulmates, the sibling -- who, though liberal, want to keep believing 'in the system', and strive to stay middle-of-the-road American style, not realizing that the American middle has gone pretty far right on the world's highway."

In my case it's my liberal sister I was thinking of.

If you could talk to liberal people who should know better and have them keep an open mind or allow themselves to care, we could all take heart in each other's efforts and encouragement, and you could easily build momentum. Instead, every single de-politicized person you run across, no matter how "liberal" they are in their positions, makes of themselves a stubborn opponent or an obstacle.

Some of the great political minds in the world today see the US citizenry as remarkably depoliticized.

[TreasonousBastard]

48. I think he's one of those people...

who recognizes a lot of the problems but sees no solution, so lashes out at windmills.

I haven't seen a realistic solution to the export of jobs yet. In the past, we could rely on advancing technology and productivity to keep our standard of living high, but we don't have that much of an advantage any more.

It is entirely possible that we have reached the end of the line here. The US has for years been so far ahead of much of the rest of the world and using a disproportionate part of the world's resources that it is reasonable to expect an adjustment at some point. That point may be now.

We are no longer self-sufficient. One of the reasons that we grew so rich and powerful over the past 200 years was the virtually unlimited resources we had internally. That is long past, and we are competing with the world for many natural and commercial resources.

We are not developing new industries. Economic expansion is natural with the demand from an increasing population, but as productivity rises we may not see job expansion without new industries.
The bosses are learning how to do more with less. Less means either fewer employees, or cheaper ones. Cheaper ones are found by beating down domestic wages or going overseas. And winking at immigration policies.

I can't see trade restrictions helping. Such restrictions merely cause more imbalances and have never worked to solve problems. I do see worldwide regulation of workplace and environmental rules working to some extent, and worldwide labor movements helping, but these are long term solutions to accelerate bringing things into balance.

I can see the development of new domestic industies helping. One major area is environmental improvement. We are capable of developing and exporting technologies to clean things up and save on resources, but there is so little being done here now. Europe is taking the lead on that, and we are continuing as if we're still in the 19th century with unlimited everything. Our R&D resources are mainly going into the military.

Reduced corporate R&D, imbalances in domestic pay rates... oh, the list could go on forever of the mistakes we are making and the wrong paths we are taking.

[FauxNewsBlues]

71. Conditions have changed

In the past, it was difficult to even move a company across the country. It was eventually done, a good case in point being the textile mills in higher paying new england being moved to North Carolina. Now the Carolina mills are shutting down and being moved overseas.

Without tarriffs, there really is no hope. This is why the power of unions is failing especially in the industrial area. The unions had power before because an industrialist often was wedded to the area where the factory was located. Unions could strike, discourage scabs, and the owner would try to break the strike, if that failed, he would have to deal with the union. Now though, in an era of transportability, you can unionize all you want, but the threat of the plant just leaving town is something hanging in the wind.

If there is a solution, it has to be governmental. The unions, no matter how large, are simply toothless in this climate. If there is always China, Mexico, India, willing to produce goods for less money, a union is mostly powerless to prevent it.

[Design8edGrouch]

49. The first thing to do

Take back the name liberal. We allow way too many people to claim that title when in reality they are "don't rock the boaters", "duck--they may not notice us", or tools of the establishment. Tell them they are not liberals. Liberal is a mindset your whining, wino b/s-i-l do not have it.
Next, point out to them that every single benefit we presently have from major corporations was due to union activity: 5 day work week, eight hour day, health and dental benefits, work-place safety, overtime pay, and vacation and holiday pay. Not to mention, that wages are higher in unuion states, even for those who don't have that option. Besides the alternative, trust the corporation to look after the health and welfare of its employees--it ain't gone to happen!
Finally, why do we idly set back and let people tear down the very organizations that are attempting to empower people. The brother's beef is with his employer. That is the source of his grief not the neighbor's union shop.

[Mari333]

51. Im so sorry.....I called my mother tonight and told her

if she or the rest of the family votes for Bush again, Ill never speak to them again ...she was a bit taken aback, but as my son might be deployed overseas, I was in a horrible mood and very angry..
She told me she already intended not to vote for him..
I swear, tho, if I meet anyone who did vote for Bush in the last election, Ill cut off all relationship with them, if anything happens to my son. I feel depressed too...very.

[neebob]

53. Don't feel bad

I got so frustrated with my mother, I finally just said, "You'll feel differently after all four of your grandsons are sent off to die for someone else's inheritance." (I have one 14-year-old son; my brother's sons are 14, 8, and 3.)

I stopped short of adding I'd never speak to her again, but I thought about it. I've thought about it since, and I believe I would never speak to her again if my worst fear materialized. I'm having trouble speaking to her now. There's more than just politics involved, but it's her ultra-right-wing views that are causing me the most grief. It's like okay, my mother is from another planet.

[LeahMira]

88. Hey, Mari333

...as my son might be deployed overseas, I was in a horrible mood and very angry.


I'm so sorry. You must be terribly worried for him. It's hard being a Mom who has fed and clothed and guided a child to adulthood only to see him sent overseas. Our children are created for so much better, and our hopes for them are so high and fine. Please keep us posted from time to time and know that many mothers' hearts are breaking. We hold your hand.
:grouphug:

[lostnfound]

95. Mothers against drunken democracy...?

I am so sorry that you are dealing with the tension of all that, Mari333. I can't imagine if my mother felt differently; that would be the worst. I lost her years ago, but at least I know that she would feel the same as I do if she were still alive.

As a mother of a young boy I often think about women like yourself with young men in the service or facing the service, and it is a big motivator for me, to try to help resist.

I appreciated your post. It helps to put my own family tensions into perspective.

The women in Lysistrata had it right.

[Spentastic]

54. Actually having read this thread

I believe your brother has been talking to Maple ;)

The world is changing, he's scared, cynical and depressed.

In my view rightly so. I agree with Maple that progress is inevitable. I don't however agree that "progress" will necessarily benefit people equally if at all.

The U.S

Primary Industry - All but dead. Consolidated into a few mega corps.

Secondary Industry - Dying. Flight to cheap Labour continues.

Tertiary Industry - Peaking. There's only so many services one human can consume

Quaternary - Er? Where's the money and jobs?

What replaces our traditional industries that employed people allowing them money to consume. I think Europe and the U.S.A are about to be royally daffy ducked.

[Q]

56. Unions have been systematically dismantled since the 80s...

...but that didn't stop the flow of jobs overseas.

- I think some people CALL themselves 'liberals' but don't know what the hell it means.

[Cat Atomic]

57. Unions are NOT outdated.

They're being undermined by policies like NAFTA and other global trade laws that encourage US businesses to pack up and move overseas.

Make it unprofitable for US businesses to move overseas, or to import their items produced in other markets into the United States, and you'll see them return. You'll see the average worker valued more than they are now.

That's not idealism, it's common sense.

[IrateCitizen]

64. Unions undermine themselves as well.

Union leadership, in many instances, is incredibly corrupt. Just look at the way in which the Teamsters have cozied up to the Bush Administration on many issues -- many against the wishes of their overall rank and file. Additionally, look at how the UAW actually fought against higher CAFE standards, while over 80% of their rank and file was FOR higher CAFE standards.

Union leadership quite often is interested first in consolidating their own political power, and second in representing the interests of their workers. Then, quite often, that "workers' interest" is horribly shortsighted.

One of the major failings in unions, IMHO, was when they stopped concentrating their primary efforts on organizing and started concentrating more on the political arena. Unions reached their crescendo when they were more interested in building numbers in an effort to fight for workplace rights. As soon as they stopped concentrating on this and started concentrating on legislative and electoral politics, they lost this positive momentum and became just another self-serving group.

But the ideas of unions are far from dead. They're quite alive -- in unions like UNITE. It is through this strategy of "organizing, organizing, organizing" that they can become an effective counterbalance to the rapaciousness of corporations once again.

[lostnfound]

97. I think they can evolve and should be welcomed..

they are linking up with the environmental movement and are a major part of the anti-globalization movement. In Houston our Pacifica station has a weekly 'WINS' program -- worker's independent news service -- and it's great for a white collar like me to hear their perspectives. United we stand.

[IrateCitizen]

102. If you reread my post, you'll see that I wasn't denouncing unions...

as much as stating that some of them have been corrupted over the years. This has led to a decline in their membership, effectiveness and overall political clout.

There is nothing I would like to see more than a revitalized labor movement built around the principle of organizing, organizing, organizing! And there are some unions out there who are doing this. But many of the bigger ones, the old "AFL" unions like the Teamsters, Carpenters, UAW, and so on are actually inhibiting these efforts in order to maintain their private fiefdoms. And it's the greater cause of organized labor that suffers in the long run.

[SharonAnn]

63. Why do you call them "liberal"? They're not liberal.

What they were saying is not "liberal", what they're complaining about are the wrong things.

I'd say they're pretty misinformed.

[IrateCitizen]

66. I would think that Armstead knows his family better than you

And I come across countless people like this, people who may have liberal beliefs, but are so disspirited by the status quo, that they just don't have any idea of where to begin.

[Armstead]

79. That's basically it

My brother and I agree about a lot in theory.

If he were saying what the right wing is dong is a good thing, at least there'd be clear lines of disagreement.

But the problem he represents is that he sees the problem, but sees no real answers or ways to change it. And he's bought just enough of the spin to deflect his anger to the victims instead of the victimizers.

I frankly blame the politicians on our side for not providing people like that with hope or alternatives. That's why corporate centrism pisses me off so much. It is basically reinforcing the fatalism of people like my brother, who would be receptive to solutions if he saw any mainstream effort to promote that.

[azrak]

91. BTW

Having political discussions while drinking wine is probably not one of the better ways to maintain sibling affection.

[lostnfound]

93. If the good is the enemy of the best..

the mediocre is a friend to evil. Your comment about corporate centrism is right on. When OUR politicians started taking the easier path (corporate money) to finance their campaigns, they made a deal with the devil. (Of course, in the face of an apathetic and easily fooled citizenry which hands over its votes easily to a well-funded propaganda campaign but rarely hands over any cash to decent politicians, it's easy to see why they were tempted to do so.)

People are lulled into thinking we have a two party system, and certainly there's a big difference between the neocons and the Democrats, but when we need them in a clinch, on the tough battles, many don't show themselves to be 'in solidarity with the people'.

[IrateCitizen]

94. It wasn't just corporate cash -- it was market fundamentalism

That was the philosophy that bloomed under Reagan, to the point that it has been embraced by BOTH political parties. Things that were considered sensible 30 years ago are considered to be downright "socialist fantasy" today.

Just look at how some issues even play out on these boards. Public health care. Strict regulation of corporations. "Free" trade.

So long as we continue to embrace this kind of thinking, we've lost. That is the major flaw in corporate centrism. It's a "kindler, gentler" form of corporatism that says that you're still going to get screwed, you'll just get the courtesy of a kiss first.

[LeahMira]

68. Perhaps this will help a little...

http://books.guardian.co.uk/extracts/story/0,6761,1055510,00.html

[JanMichael]

78. I've had the same epiphany recently. We ARE the problem.

When I say we I mean the nice, Liberal, fairly successful, Middlish Class.

We have the power to make the world better but when push comes to shove we're either to comfortable or too scared, of losing what we've got, to make a difeerence.

We are the reason that John Brown turned to violence, the nice Abolitionist wouldn't dream of creating a stir. We are the reason for the Russian Revolution. We are the reason that people felt the need to become a Black Panther or Weatherman.

What do many Liberals really want from Bush going down? Single Payer Healthcare? Sure, we'd like to see it but not pay for it. Living Wage? Doubtful. Poverty Reduction/Elimination? Trickle down, that's our answer, we won't admit it but it's true.

What do we want? Bigger 401k's. A bigger raise. Cheap gas.

Sounds like we're really Conservatives.

Oh but we're Liberals, we feel guilty.

[IrateCitizen]

80. Oh, you're absolutely correct, JanMichael.

We're loathe to give up what we have in the name of real progress. Not just progress of financial markets, but progress of the human condition and spirit. We say we want change, but we're unwilling to do what's necessary to achieve it.

And I definitely include myself in this "we". I become disgusted with my own complacency. But I'm also trying like hell to use that disgust to motivate myself to make some real changes, and I've been slowly succeeding. But perhaps more difficult than anything is that our society is not set up to encourage people to make these changes. It is set up to encourage more consumerism, more cynicism, and more despair. It's set up as an old "GOTO" function from BASIC computer programming language.

We have to break the loop. Somehow.

[JanMichael]

83. It won't be us that break the loop.

The royal "We" will wallow in our mediocrity and so the Corpos will wreck our suburban castles, destroy our jobs, deconstruct our schools, whilst we debate the merits of whether a prescription benefit of $180 is better than $179.99.

Than, and only then, will Progress grab hold of our perfect hair and drag us into the Future.

Where I'll be waiting...

[IrateCitizen]

84. Allow me to retort in the words of Jim Hightower...

WWWWWHHHHHIIIIINNNNNEEEEE!!!!

The only way that things will be changed is by us. Now stop your self-defeatism, buck up, and get out there and work toward that better future! ;-)

[JanMichael]

85. Oh! You mis-underestimated my point!

The process that I described will be rapid, no, lightening fast.

We're already behind, there's MUCH work to be done:-)

[IrateCitizen]

87. My bad!

And yes, we're at the equivalent of cramming all night for an organic chemistry final without having cracked the book once all term.

[lostnfound]

100. Great post, IC -- it's a keeper for me.

[Mairead]

89. "I think that's worse than right-wing Republicans."

Niemand ist mehr Sklave, als der sich für frei hält, ohne es zu sein.
-- Goethe

None are so hopelessly enslaved as they who falsely believe themselves free


We see it at DU all the time.

[Aries]

99. I agree with you here...

>I didn't really have an answer except to say that if we stop being so accepting of this bullshit, that's where change starts.

and if people give up, which the corporate media tell them to do every day of their lives, they will get what the owners of the corporate media want them to have--about enough to live on, if they're lucky!

Basically this is an argument about corporate globalization, which is designed to advantage the interests of employers against those of workers, everywhere. Since most people want to identify with power, they will identify their interests with their exploiters against whoever is lower than themselves on the socioeconomic ladder. They convince themselves that it is other workers who are taking advantage of them, not those above them, who actually do have the power. It's much less conducive to cognitive dissonance to stay in denial this way.

[SammyWinstonJack]

104. Sure thing!

It's all the Big Bad Union's fault for demanding Management pay their employees an honest day's wages for an honest day's work. Get rid of Unions and see how fast Management takes advantage of the American worker, more than they already try too. I guess the American worker doesn't deserve to be adequately compensated for their labor. But hey, it's perfectly acceptable for CEOs to make 500 times more than the average worker in this Country. Some people just aren't worth reasoning with.