This is why Republicans will continue to kick us in the teeth

[ibegurpard]

I'm reading on this board things like: "We need to give Arnold a chance" and "Davis deserved to lose." When are the people who voice sentiments like this going to realize that the current people calling the shots in the Republican Party have NO interest in compromise or governance? They want to stamp out the opposition! Compromise is GREAT when reasonable people on both sides of an issue are willing to work toward a solution. Republicans are NOT willing to do that and thus giving them inch after inch after inch means we will continue to suffer setback after setback. This recall was an legal coup. I don't care whether people voted for it legitimately or not...it never should have been on the ballot in the first place. Davis didn't defraud the state or commit any serious crime...his only crime was being unpopular. So all unpopular politicians should be subject to recall? Can you hear yourselves? If you all want to continue to sit in your corners and pretend that it's business as usual then please don't come complaining when there is no opposition party left at all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. Well people are trying to rationalize

I am just seeing the whirwind that has been released.

Teh angry voter is back (John Zogby) and recalls are not
going to be limited to Cali... this is what they have unleashed.

And yes give him a chance...

At the end of the day he will have two choices:

1.- raise taxes (boy that will really piss people off)

2.- Cut services. (Boy that will piss people off)

The we are angry as hell and won't take it anymore is now spreading.

That is the silver lining. Now the question is... will the DNC
wake up and smell the coffee and realize we do have a chance, but
we need to take it, and the lets give him a chance and compromise
I agree will nto work.

So yes I am willing to give him a chance, to anger people... I see
this as the old axiom of unintended consequences.

[Cha]

5. Speaking of "the dnc" ...they just called me and asked for

money and I told the guy that all my money was going to Howard Dean.

He tried six ways from Sunday to get me to commit some money to them because they are the ones who "know how to handle it because we've been doing this a long time"... No Dice!

[linazelle]

6. There are more than two choices...

Alternative #3?

Bush will channel a shitload of cash to CA to make it look as though Arnold actually governed.

[SharonAnn]

7. Yep, don't enable him. There are consequences to actions and

he needs to experience the consequences to his, especially now that he's going to be Governor.

DO NOT ENABLE REPUBLICANS! It only allows people to keep voting for them.

Stop saving Republicans from themselves. It only allows them to continue what they're doing and get away with it.

Let them reap the consequences and perhaps the voters will realize that sound-bites and tax cuts aren't the answer to governing. Republicans are very bad at governing but as long as we save the people from the worst the Republicans want to do, the more we let people think there are no bad consequences to voting Republican.

[ComerPerro]

2. YES

We can't play nice with these assholes. They have no interest in it.

Really, the Bush administration is really a prefect representation of the Republican party. They use hatred to drum up support. They use fear to opress. And they lie so often that, if Bush told me that the sky was blue, I would have to go outside and check for myself.

But most importatnly, they share the same distorted view of winning in politics as every right-winger I have ever met.

Its not enough to just win. You have to be a responsible winner in politics.

A 52% approval rating is cause to justify screwing over the remaining 48%. A 2% margin of victory should not be treated as a total victory.
Perhaps this is why they had so much trouble with the Iraq mess...

Its that God damned black and white world. When someone is either with you or against you, is either your ally or "evil", then there is no room to compromise.

Why, then, should we sit back and expect these murderous, anti-American, anti-democratic (small "d", democracy) fascists to play fair?

[Cha]

8. Metaphorically ..bush does say the "sky is blue" and we all

know that it is Freakin' Gray!

[ComerPerro]

30. I found the prefect reason for why Rethugs will kick us in the teeth

Its in this O'Reiley interview, about four minutes before the end...

http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml;jsessionid=OV1P03222ULNRLA5AINSFFQ?todayDate=current

During this end section, he becomes very confrontational and bullying.
Conservatives believe that bullying and intimidation is a true, fair way to win. And then they congratulate themselves.

This is why the right succedes, this is why Nazism spread so well and was so popular, and this is why fascism is approaching now.


Fuck OReilley

[Padraig18]

3. I've not seen *anyone* say it was a GOOD idea

I have seen many call it like they see it--- a DUMB but entirely LEGAL process in which a TERRIBLE governor got his head handed to him. No one has defended the process, insofar as I've seen.

[jpgray]

4. Unless we have parity as far as media capital, we CAN'T do otherwise (nt)

[ibegurpard]

12. Sure we can

Even if it's nothing more than politely finding a way to tell your friends and associates that Ahnuld is nothing but a Bush meat-puppet who sleazed his way into the Governor's office as a result of a technically legal but highly dubious recall.

[jpgray]

15. I agree there, but I meant in terms of public statements by leadership

Gray Davis, for example, couldn't very well say that in his concession speech. The Democrats that publicly say "screw Arnold, let's ruin him" would get eviscerated by the media, and no politician wants to risk that. I totally agree that everyone should do what they can against Arnold, since his success really tarnishes our system of Democracy--it's taken a lot of tarnishing over the past few decades.

[buff2]

9. I agree with you 100%

:hi: Well said!

[Classical_Liberal]

10. The Give Arnold a chance was pretty outrageous

but Davis was doomed, and it is really hard to understand why Democrats invested so much emotionally in him. Well I do understand, actually. Davis exploited fear of another florida to great affect, and he got a bunch of party base people he had given the finger to for years to jump to his defense based on that fear. Meanwhile Davis didn't give Californians one reason to vote for him.

Bush won't steal California for a number of reason.

1)There are many states with Republican governers that still voted for Al Gore.

2)California had a democratic legislature, unlike Florida.

3)Arnold is not Bush's brother.


4)Because of Enron Bush is as popular as a rattlesnake. If Arnold stole it, it would be obvious. This is why Davis was dumb for not linking Arnold to Enron.

[KharmaTrain]

11. They Beat Us By The Rules

That's what really hurts. All things considered this was the Democratic party's race to lose and it did.

If it's not obvious the Repugnicans are out for either the destruction or the delegating this party to a permanent secondary status (like they had in Congress for the most part of 50 years).

To argue whether the actual recall was legal or not is moot now...and the Repugnents found the loophole and played it for all it was worth. Davis DID run a crappy campaign, as did Bustamante and the support from the DNC. It was and still is an embarassment. We not only lost in a state that had a large advantage of registered Democrats, but fell far short in our key voting groups: the young, women, Hispanics, Labor. C'mon folks, the time has come to find a real common cause and face cold reality.

This has to start on the grassroots level. It's great to see the party activism a DU has begun to generate and the difference is just starting to be gauged (we won't know til at least the 2004 election if not beyond)...and there's a foundation here for a party that truly reflects the majority of the American people. It's time we stop being "above" messing it up and confronting the lies of the Repugnican parties and find a way that message gets to the Joe Six Packs and "Red Staters" who are getting just as screwed as we are, but have been "sheppled" into believing the cause of their problems isn't them, it's us.

[ibegurpard]

13. So what?

That means that we sit back and let them keep pushing the boundaries?

[Classical_Liberal]

19. No it means close those boundries

if you seriously think recall is wrong. Otherwise there is nothing you can do, other than run a good campaign, and be popular.

[maveric]

14. Dems need to show some spine, ferocity and a little intolerance.

No more buckling down. No more enabling the opposition. This is more than just politics. This is a war!!

Lets find and elect better leaders. Leaders that actually have a platform that they will stick with and fight for.

No, Davis did not deserve to lose! He was re-elected after most of the damage attributed to him was allready done and documented. This recall is not about electing a better leader to cure the woes of CA. Its a damn RW power grab. Let that sink in people!

And we should not give Arnold a chance. We need to do what our enemy is doing to us. Scrutinize, criticize, slam, smear, sling shit and try to expose him and his backers for what they really are and what their real agenda is.


If the democratic party continues as it is now, with the psuedo leadership it has now, this will be a facist one party system nation.

[jpgray]

20. Even if they did, how would you ever hear about it?

The media have not done an adequate job of covering relatively simple factual problems of the Bush Administration, such as the Niger claim, a *known falsehood* that fermented for nearly a year before our media deigned to pick up the story.

Either strident Dems would be pounced on by the media, or the media wouldn't even bother reporting their actions. It's happened before. I don't remember Kucinich's criticisms as early as February 2002 being mentioned, nor Senator Byrd's.

[ibegurpard]

22. The only people who pay attention are the hardcore political junkies

Ask the average American if they are pissed off at Democrats for blocking recent Bush judicial nominees...more than likely they'll look at you like you're from Mars. We have SO much more leeway than we realize to fight them.

On edit: the point I am trying to make here is that Democrats seem to be so worried about a political backlash if they put up a stink about things but most people aren't paying attention.

[jpgray]

25. TV news is kind of an awareness-euthanasia anyway

On the judicial nominations I think marginalization was the strategy chosen by the media. On issues like deregulation or the Iraq war, I don't believe the media would take any prisoners--questionable patriotism, anti-business, anti-American, weak on defense all these now meaningless terms would be brought out in short order against serious opposition. In my opinion, the public has already been conditioned to knee-jerk against Democratic opposition to such issues. So what I'm saying is, on small issues Democratic opposition will be marginalized, and on major ones the opposers will be villified. And even if we had the most upstanding and vocal set of men and women (which we don't), many would shrink from exposing themselves to such a witch hunt.

Oh well, I hope you're right and it's only a matter of fighting, but I'm worried we may not be in a position to make our fight noticeable or to make the reasons we are fighting clear, due to our lack of capital in the media.

[Closer]

16. You are EXACTLY right ibergurpard

I just posted a similar sentiment in the "Give Arnold a Chance" thread. It's absolutely disgusting isn't it?

P*ssy Democrats like that deserve to lose every single time.

[Padraig18]

17. Kick them in the balls, gouge their eyes, etc...

We will NOT win by being 'nice guys'! If you're not willing to rip their hearts out and eat them, don't even go after them! Even 3rd graders in Chicago understand THAT much about campaigning! :eyes:

[ibegurpard]

42. Metaphorically, of course

But we can't forget that we also have to offer a positive and uplifting alternative. All negative won't work but the negative has its place and we can't be afraid to use it.

[Padraig18]

43. Of course.

The problem has been that we have had all sorts of good, positive ideas which we never got out, because WE were being kicked, gouged, scratched, etc. . The best defense is a good offense. :hi:

[Democat]

18. Wimpy delusional Democrats, especially the elected ones, are our downfall

Our party is a bunch of wimps. The Republicans are a bunch of fighters.

Wimps vs. Fighters

Guess who is going to win?

[nannygoat]

21. I'm not sure I'd call a bunch of repukes--

"fighters". They are mostly parrots or robots who receive their talking points, stay on message by repeating them everywhere, blame everyone else for the fixes they and their country are in, call their opposition names and try to question their patriotism, whine 24/7, and for a bunch of idiots who have the elephant as a mascot they have really terrible memories.

Arnold should fit in really well...

[Liberal Classic]

23. Moderates versus extremists

I'm sad to say such behavior is not limited to the Republican party. In fact, there are moderate elements in both the Republican and Democratic parties that are shouted down as traitors by their own more extreme elements. Note that Democrats call insufficiently liberal Dems as DINOs and Republicans call insufficiently conservative Reps as RINOs. Any spirit of compromise from either party is shouted down from within compromiser's own party as much or more from that of the other side. I've seen Zell Miller, for example, called all sorts of unflattering names, such as traitor, repuke, DINO, etc, etc. The same sort of conformist pressure occurs just as readily from the other side of the isle.

So when complaining that the Republicans never want to compromise, take a look to see that Democrats aren't being just as inflexible.

[ibegurpard]

26. It's not my desire

to make excuses for republicans and I'm not interested in playing the "but democrats do it tooooo" game.
If the Republican party were controlled by the likes of Olympia Snowe or other moderate Republicans, then I wouldn't have such a problem with Zell Miller defecting on important votes. (And please don't try to deny that Democrats defect more than Republicans) The Republican party is NOT controlled by the likes of Olympia Snowe, however. It's controlled by the likes of Tom Delay. There can be NO compromise with Tom Delay.

[Donna Zen]

33. Snowe

...should not get a pass as a moderate. Most of her record is spotty. She votes with them if they need her to; she votes against them when they don't need her vote and it will piss Maine off.

Her environmental record is a laugher, and she represents a state that is 90% tree covered. The only thing worse is the other "evil sister" Collins, who also gets a pass as a moderate. Funny how the labeling game goes...and very few ever question whether or not she has earned it.

Remember the vote earlier in the year: Snowe was a assured something would be amended, if she just voted for it at the time. (I can't even remember what it was now...anyone?) Anyway, I'm still waiting and those two "moderates" haven't made the first peep.

[ibegurpard]

35. Oh I agree with you

And this is why I won't trust even a "moderate" Republican. When the chips are down they stand with Bush. What I was trying to say is that if she was the NORM rather than the EXCEPTION in the Republican Party then I wouldn't have such a huge problem with the idea of compromising with them.

[BeachBuckeye]

46. I couldn't agree more!

ANY attempt to compromise with DeLay and his gang will result in the Republicans running roughshod over us again and again. You are exactly right when you say their ultimate objective is to eliminate our Party and any other disenting voices. We MUST fight fire with fire, at least until we level the playing field.

[mkregel]

24. Tho Feinstein's loyalty is the kind of cajones we need in this party

Despite Davis' negative attacks against her back when they fought, no one campaigned harder against the recall than Dianne. I used to dislike her, due to her pro-Likud, pro-war stances. But the loyalty she showed to the party is admirable, and we need to take that to heart....

Go Dianne! Recall Arnold! Restore Democracy in the USA!

[roguevalley]

27. They voted a man in for whom the recall was designed: Arnold

Arnold would be recalled for what he has done under
this statute, not a non-charismatic man who was publically
lynched for the machinations of Lay, Milken and Schwartzenneger. It is an undemocratic coup in the worst terms and people need to get
that straight. When will it become clear?

1. stole 2000 election

2. redistricted minorities and dems out of public franchise: Texas

3. Florida is a banana republic under their idiots

4. now Cally-forn-ya

What will it take? Troops on the streets?

Compulsory religious attendance?

Internment camps?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

28. HEAR HEAR! ..Amen and Amen...that's a fact jack!

[cosmicdot]

29. most of us knew it wasn't politics per usual since 11/7, 12/12/2000

and, that politics per usual would fail ...

... many of us have been telling our so-called party leaders this for the last 3 years ...

why don't they get it?

I agree ... no enabling ... they'll see us as suckas and take us down some place else

this recall is scary ... how easy for evil to slip in the door ... the sheeple are conditioned to accept it with open arms ...

and, they, then, make us look like the bad seed

it's civil war, and we're losing

[Snellius]

31. We also have to get over our bitterness

It only defines us in opposition to our enemy and not by what we represent in ourselves. In CA, for example, it was a complete turn off to hear Clinton's campaign of blaming the recall on the "vast rightwing conspiracy". Of course, there's a vast rightwing conspiracy. There's always been a vast rightwing conspiracy. That's the name of the game. Such arguments only work if you assume that everyone is as partisan as you are and, at this point, the average person could care less about R and D. They care about what those parties stand for. Democrats have to convince the country that the democratic goals and social protections are not just socialist utopianism but good for business.

[ibegurpard]

32. Of course you have to offer a positive alternative

but thinking that you can win by doing ONLY that is exceptionally naive, IMHO. Republicans sat on Clinton judicial nominations for EIGHT YEARS!!! And then they complained when the Democrats blocked a FEW Bush nominations...despite the fact the Democratic controlled Judicial committee had a much fairer record of confirming Bush's judicial nominations. We have compromised and given chances over and over again to these thugs and they turn around and run sleazy campaigns questioning the patriotism of triple-amputee war vet senators. These people CANNOT be compromised with and we CANNOT continue to give them chances. They are playing for keeps.

[Snellius]

34. I fear though you're going to burn yourself out

with resentment. I understand your anger. But the party that wins will be the party that's smiling, enthusiastic, cool, motivated, youthful, energetic, unafraid to lose because they know they're right in the end.

[ibegurpard]

37. I'm not advocating that we actually go blaring out to the public like this

But when people are saying, "Well, Arnold's not so bad...maybe we need to give him a chance." that worries me. I gave Bush a chance and he shit all over it. Does that mean I'm going to be a raving lunatic when I talk politics with people? Of course not. I'm much more sedate in public than I am expressing my opinions among "family" on this board. However, there's a difference between putting a happy face over the seething resentment and anger and actually internalizing the idea of compromising with these extremists.
The only way I will EVER have anything other than contempt for Arnold is if he pulls a 360 and holds Bushco/Enron's feet to the fire for what they did to California. I don't believe that's going to happen.

[VOX]

36. 'Wham!" (Sound of the nail being hit squarely on the head by ibegurpard).

I have been reading these sickening posts here all day, and am seething with anger. Some examples:

Davis deserved to lose last night.

Arnold won fair and square.

Right on! Post of the day!

I don't see what happened yesterday as a disaster, either.

And an idiot Democratic governor, that I always hated, lost yesterday.

We lost an unpopular DLC fucker Governor. Nothing more. Who gives a shit about Davis.

I agree Davis should have dropped out.

Davis has no sense of party loyalty.

Maybe you guys will get your power and money problems fixed now.

Davis did some other unpopular things, and the only person to blame is Davis himself.

He was a ROTTEN Governor! It's THAT simple!

Gray Davis is an embarrassment.

So WHAT if Davis lost??? Gray Davis was a HORRIBLE governor who SHOULD HAVE BEEN RECALED!
--------------------------------------------

What the hell is this, Free Republic???? Why aren't you looking at the BIG picture? It's not even *about* Gray Davis. This recall is of, by, and for the right wing!

Dammit -- get angry, and stay angry at the real *source* of your anger: George fu**ing Bush!

[SammyWinstonJack]

40. Yessssss!

Thanks for summing it up nicely!

[Donna Zen]

38. Answer to thread question: YES

Check out the polling numbers. This was not the a failure of Dems speaking out; this was a matter of all of the Repubs voting as a block, even if Arnold's positions made them sick, vs Dems splitting their vote because they are "angry."

Personally, I'm having a rather difficult day with the haunting feeling that we are looking at the 2004 vote. Sorry, but that's is how I see it.

And considering what the VRWC can do...stopping government contracts to CA, Enron, and their ability to constantly look toward the next election, the Big Dawg has every right to call it.

Should Dems vote in lock step? The stakes are too high to cling to our differences on election day knowing we are sinking fast.

[maggrwaggr]

39. thus Dean's appeal

that's exactly why Dean gets people fired up.

there's a great hunger to fight back.

I, too, am fed up with the Democrats being so fucking NICE.

Gore, to me, was an example of this.

Fuck being nice. These people hate us. They want to squash us, crush us, wipe us out.

It's war. When are we gonna fight back?

[ibegurpard]

41. It's certainly one of the reasons he appealed to me

:toast:

[rucky]

44. Yep...Dean, Kucinich and Sharpton

are the guys who can get the party back on track- if we let 'em. More important than them being nice or mean is the fact that they are Sincere. How could you not fight back if you are true to your beliefs?

[ibegurpard]

45. kicking this up over the "give arnold a chance crap."

:grr:

[kodi]

47. the right campaigns and governs simultaneously

one is a part of the other. it is about the utilization of adversarial rhetoric and techniques usually reserved for campaigns as a part of the processes and acts of governence, and the manipulation of the structrual choke points in government to facilitate campaign objectives.

for the GOP the Party is the State, and nothing is more dangerous.

[ibegurpard]

48. Here's another example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=503366&mesg_id=503366

I really, really hope these kind of sentiments aren't coming from real Democrats or progressives or we really and truly are fucked.

[tom_paine]

49. Well said, ibegurpard

When are people going to realize what we are up against.

Nazi monsters.

Sure they are "kinder and gentler" than the originals, Grandpa Prescott Bush's Business Partners, but they watch the same kind of propaganda, they are programmed the same way to trust only Party-Approved Sub-Media.

They, from top to bottom, have passed beyoind a certain point in which they can rationilze any act, however unethical, as angelically good becuase they are "fighting evil".

Monsters, says I. I stand by that. And they are coming, ever emboldened.

[MCVet]

50. Actually....

We will continue to lose as long as we CONTINUE to ignore the common sense of "The Art of War".

Know yourself, know your enemy and know your ground, and you will never be defeated.

California demonstrated how little we knew our "ground", the electorate.

Now the post recall reactions, the claims of it being evidence of an "anti-incumbant" movement, or the product of cheating, proves a lack of knowing "ourselves".

Denial.