A conversation I had with my dad this morning regarding the neocons

[JaySherman]

He's pretty moderate, but hates Bush and agrees with me on pretty much everything about him. We were eating breakfast this morning and I had Democracy Now! on the radio. Amy was interviewing people about Niger the whole show. We got into a good discussion on Niger, Iraq, neocons, and how the antiwar movement was basically right and these guys should all be impeached. At one point I brought up that I wouldn't even put it past them to have possibly orchestrated 911, or at least have allowed it to happen.

He said he couldn't believe that even they would kill thousands of people like that.

I told him they just did in Iraq. He still couldn't accept that they would kill Americans.

I said "What about the 200 soldiers that just died over a lie?"

He conceded that but said he was still having a hard time accepting in his heart that our leaders would do that. Then I brought up PNAC, how it laid out the whole neocon agenda, was signed by Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, etc., and how they even stated the need for "Another Pearl Harbor" to help push their agenda through. He didn't look too happy to hear that, so I offered to send him the link and dropped the subject. I emailed it to him, but I'm not sure if or or how much he's read cause he hasn't said anything to me yet.

Reflecting on our convervation, I think it's possibly illustrative of the mindset a lot of Americans are in. They place good faith in their leaders and can't or won't accept that they would do such terrible things. It's too much to stomach and understandably so. A lot of us (myself included) have been saying that people are stupid and they won't wake up, but maybe it's more than that. It could also be that this stuff is just plain hard to take. A form of denial like accepting a loved one has a substance problem or is terminally ill. I often feel myself like I'm living in some kind of surreal nightmare.

edit: as an added thought
There are probably a lot of people out there like my dad who are good hearted people who will vote for the candidate they think will do best. People who, if the media did its job, would throw the repubs out on their asses if they knew what was really going on. It's up to us to get the word out.

[Frances]

1. You make good points

in your post.

[Birthmark]

2. May I ask you a question, Jay?

Do you know where can I find the "need for another Pearl Harbor" statement in that PNAC pile of twaddle? Thanks.

[JaySherman]

4. Just do a find text

for "pearl harbor" in the Rebuilding America's Defenses document. It's there. Mentioned twice, on pages 63 and 79.

[Birthmark]

5. Thanks, Jay.

I will be using those quotes. ;-)

[yowzayowzayowza]

7. Pearl Harbor reference

Actual PNAC article:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

ABC article:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/DailyNews/pnac_030310.html

[JaySherman]

12. Nice find, yowza!

I'm sending that ABC article to my dad, because I realized in glancing over the PNAC docs again today, how boring they really are to wade through. Unless you're a military buff I suppose.

Thanks! :thumbsup:

[bpilgrim]

20. here is another PNAC link

http://new.globalfreepress.com/index.pl?section=pnac

:hi:

peace

[Birthmark]

13. Thanks.

That is some pretty chilling reading, in light of subsequent events. I will definitely be looking through PNAC carefully.

[NYC]

3. Perhaps they didn't expect so many people to die on 9/11.

.

[Ouabache]

6. Yup, they could have been double-crossed

Maybe they were just thinking let the defenses down a little, then they got burned in a double-cross by the people they let the D down for?? I have seen one suggestion that the scenario could have achieved the same result for them with even more heroism & glory, and less loss of life, if the first plane to strike had actually been the one at the Pentagon ? Something to think about...just no proof -yet.

[Gringo]

8. It is a failing of our educational system

It teaches us a rosy and false picture of history, especially US history. The fact is, our leaders have lied to us for as long as this country has existed, and long,long before. And there has never been a shortage of leaders more than eager to sacrifice American lives for dubious causes.

But then again, that rosy image of America that we were raised with is probably largely responsible for the idealism that spurs most of us into activism.

Anyway, Dumbya is not an entirely unprecedented phenomena. He's just more blatant and less competent than most.

And besides, there are even dems here at DU that say "stop blaming America first" to any criticism of the fundamental history and design of this country. These people are so swayed by sentiment that they can't see the reality.

[grasswire]

10. if people could see a safer path....

....they would be able to absorb the horror of what Bushco have done.

In order to accept the truth, they have to throw themselves into a whirlwind where there is no security, no competency, no safety.

The person who offers a safe path out of this nightmare will win the presidency in 2004.

I haven't seen any Dems describe a path to safety yet.

[caledesi]

9. I am like your dad.

My husband is convinced that 9/11 was set up etc. Not necessarily, that * and Co. knew what excactly what would happen, but he believes that they knew "something" was coming down.

I am like your dad. I can't believe that someone would knowlingly allow 3000 people to die. I just can't believe it.

We talk about it all the time...but I am beginning to think that they indeed did know "something" was coming down and it upsets me.

[grasswire]

11. look

Nixon botched the Paris peace talks and claimed he had a secret plan to win the Vietnam war. Many thousands of GIs died because of this lie.

Don't underestimate these people.

[JaySherman]

14. I questioned it myself for the longest time

Relegating it to borderline conspiracy theory. As time has gone on, I've become more convinced that they have the heartlessness and the motivation to do it. As I'm watching how these people behave, I am sure they have no hearts. As I said this morning, "Would you put it past them?" The first thing the police look for in any crime is a motive. That is documented public record. Now evidence is coming out to support it, like the utter defensive failures, and the stonewalling of the investigation. I still question it sometimes, but I am becoming pretty convinced they had something to do with it.

Edited for typos

[Birthmark]

15. I considered it conspiracy crap, too.

Now, I'm less sure. I at least understand why people think that reasons for 9/11 may be a bit different than we were told. I'm going to have to give this new info a thorough think through.

[ChillEB]

22. The Place to Start Your New Enlightenment...

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/index.html

To pique your curiosity, I'd start out reading "The Many Faces of Saeed Sheikh"

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essaysaeed.html

and then read the '01/01/01-09/11/01' timeline first, followed by the 'Day of 9/11' one.

If you spend the 20 or so HOURS needed to read all of this timeline, I guarantee your mind will be officially blown.

[madmax]

17. You summed me up pretty well

in the last paragraph in your original message, before the after note.

And from day 1 I believed they lihop. I just don't think they realized how BIG it was going to be.

[w4rma]

18. Alot of folks on DU have been saying that these planes couldn't bring down

those buildings. Maybe that's what the folks who wanted the planes slammed into the buildings thought, also. Maybe both groups were wrong about what it would take for the buildings to come down.

[bpilgrim]

23. and no plane even hit WT7... het it fell in it's own FOOTPRINT

http://globalfreepress.com/movs/911/wtc-7_collapse.mpg

just like the towers... :'(



http://globalfreepress.com/mp3/trifecta.mp3
more...
http://globalfreepress.com/trifecta


peace

[annagull]

24. Caladesi, I have felt like you do

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, you have read alot of the same material that I have. I really cannot put my head around someone in our government doing this on purpose. There are just too many people killed. I have come to think, based on the fact that no jets were scrambled into the air to knock out these attacks, and the fact that Boosh* sat on his ass in an elementary school for at least a half hour while people were dying, I have come to think they are criminally negligeble. Like driving with a body in your car--like that criminally negligeble(I can't spell). This is not to convince you, only my feelings as to what happened. Caledesi, you are a thoughtful person and I respect your opinion. These are hard subjects, and I do not doubt that i could be wrong. Just my opinion.:-)

[no_arbusto]

25. Why can't people accept that this is possible?

I mean, SOMEONE let 3000 people die there. Why does it have to be the 19 Arab bogeymen? Do American people not kill people? Why is it so inconceivable that someone could do this to their so called own people? We're all humans and humans kill each other all the time. Killers and psychopaths show no preference for who they kill.

I think it's pretty naive to think that no human would "knowingly ALLOW 3000 people to die". Even if the official story is true, it was still some human that knowingly CAUSED 3000 people to die. Who profitted from this? Have Arab terrorists really won? Are they now living lives of luxury and ruling the world? Did this really further their cause? Are there really that many people that still believe the official story?

[JackSwift]

16. I don't want to believe that they caused or let 9/11 happen

I'd rather chalk it up to incomptence. But I've read enough of the facts about it to know that ignoring that many warnings was beyond mere incomptence. They have ridden it politically to rob the treasury and screw the economy and bludgeon their political opponents.

[Lexingtonian]

19. Yep

An awful lot of people are somehow very gullible and prone to the idea that any American government has to be acting in the best interests of the whole country. They also have a tendency to believe that since what Republicans do is more dramatic, it must be more effective, and Democrats are therefore the ineffective side.

It takes quite a bit until these people come around to the idea that maybe what Democrats do is the honest and harder work- easy to fail at- and more thankless because its benefits spread more thinly over far more people. And only then do the suspicions arise that Republican politicians are only about scamming the country, about doing what is easy- bungling anything challenging- and serving private interests.

But there is that horrible intermediate phase where these people act betrayed by it all, see conspiracies and nefariousness everywhere, and don't let stupidity and incompetence and sloth account for their fair share in the failures and extremist foolishnesses in public life.

[VOX]

21. Excellent points, all. Nobody wants to believe that their government...

would betray them -- myself included. But it gives one pause when you read from the above-linked "Strategy, Forces and Resources
For a New Century: A Report of The Project for the New American Century, September 2000":
<snip>
V. CREATING TOMORROW’S DOMINANT FORCE
<snip>
"...Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some
catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor. Domestic politics and industrial policy will shape the pace and content of transformation as much as the requirements of current missions..."

As your mind tries to digest this boggling information (written a year before 9/11), consider the following additional facts:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml
Ashcroft Flying High
CBS News
WASHINGTON, July 26, 2001
<snip>
"...In response to inquiries from CBS News over why "...Ashcroft was traveling exclusively by leased jet aircraft instead of commercial airlines, the Justice Department cited what it called a 'threat assessment' by the FBI, and said Ashcroft has been advised to travel only by private jet for the remainder of his term..."
<snip>
"...The Justice Department insists that it wasn't Ashcroft who wanted to fly leased aircraft. That idea, they said, came strictly from Ashcroft's FBI security detail. The FBI had no further comment."

http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/08/06/bush.crawford/
Bush vacation puts spotlight on tiny Crawford
CNN
August 7, 2001
CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- President Bush's vacation home is seemingly a world away from Washington.

"Crawford -- a one-stoplight town of about 700 -- is now the summer White House. Bush is spending a month's vacation at his ranch here, bringing with him a retinue of aides, Secret Service agents and the White House press corps...
<snip>
Bush's sojourn to his ranch has made the town, about 120 miles south of Dallas, the focus of American politics for much of the next month, and its people are adjusting to a newfound fame..."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
One almost feels ashamed for suspecting the worst from our elected leaders and the powers-that-be. But all you can do is look at the sequence of events and the subsequent fallout, and draw your own conclusion.