Could New Orleans be rebuilt as a "green city"?

[SoCalDem]

http://www.enterprisefoundation.org/resources/green/index.asp

It's a relatively small area, and most will have to be re-done from the ground up..

It could be a prototype if the right people are eventually put in charge of it..

This is one link I found, but I have seen documentaries (mostly Eurpoean) where, on a small scale, they work very well, and people love living that way, once they actually do it ..

Just a thought..

The first task would be to make sure the toxicity is cleaned up, of course.

[hippiechick]

1. That area is the port for refineries/tankers, etc ...

... that's why once it's rebuilt, it's going to be renamed 'Halliburton, Louisiana'.

The greedmongers aren't going to get anything remotely responsible get near it.

[Bridget Burke]

2. With Karl Rove in charge?

The only green will be our tax dollars going into the pockets of Republican contributors, building a city to shut out the poor. Any jobs for local companies & workers? I doubt it. Clean up toxic messes? Ha!

The Second Battle of New Orleans is just beginning.

[Kolesar]

3. Great idea!

Ahem. I started a thread earlier.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x30703

[SoCalDem]

11. eek.. sorry.. I did not see yours

:embarrassed:.. yours is better.. maybe they will combine:)

[deutsey]

4. From what I heard on DN this am, it's being rebuilt as a "white city"

:eyes:

Listen here:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/16/1222257

[TallahasseeGrannie]

5. Plenty

of sunshine and breezes, if they can harness them.

[nonconformist]

6. With these idiots in charge, I think it's safe to say

That it will be as environmentally unfriendly as humanly possible.

Wonderful idea though! You should send this to McCain and the other republicans that voted against ANWR drilling. Meaning, don't bother Landrieu with it.

[understandinglife]

7. DUer "Nothing Without Hope" recommended I read "Gaviotas" ...

... specifically in the context of employing all the aspects of that endeavor to the rebuilding of New Orleans (and much else throughout the Gulf Coast region).

From Library Journal
In the early 1970s, a unique community was founded in the los llanos region of Colombia. Located north of the Amazon rain forest, this region is an expansive savannah, sparsely populated and generally considered uninhabitable. Gaviotas originated out of the belief that the current state of urban expansion and poverty and the continued depletion of natural nonrenewable resources could not be sustained and that the future required people to learn how to live in harsh, inhospitable environments and to do so in an ecologically sound and sustainable manner.

Journalist Weisman tells the story of a remarkable and diverse group of individuals (engineers, biologists, botanists, agriculturists, sociologists, musicians, artists, doctors, teachers, and students) who helped the village evolve into a very real, socially viable, and self-sufficient community for the future.

The people of Gaviotas today produce innovative technologies (solar collectors, irrigation systems, windmills, and hydroponic gardens) that use the environment without depleting or destroying it. While some of their creative endeavors have not succeeded, even the failures tend to spawn ideas for future successes. Weisman does a fine job of detailing Gaviotas's evolution and placing it within the larger global historical context.

The story he presents is wonderful testament to human creativity, commitment, and effort toward building a socially viable and environmentally sustainable future.Karen Collamore Sullivan, Consortium for International Earth Science Information Network (CIESIN), Saginaw, MI

Paperback: 240 pages
Publisher: Chelsea Green Publishing Company (December, 1999)
Language: English
ISBN: 1890132284
Product Dimensions: 9.0 x 6.0 x 0.7 inches

I've read it and recommend all of you do, as well. If a group like Habitat for Hummanity would be willing to sponsor the study and application of what is described in Alan Weisman's book, a much less costly and far more sustainable region could emerge from this disaster.


Peace.

[Dissenting_Prole]

8. James Howard Kunstler thinks it should be

http://www.kunstler.com/mags_diary15.html

 Turning to New Orleans. . . viewing the hurricane damage on TV, it is hard not to conclude that most of the building stock in the city is irreparably ruined. One can't help feeling that the city we knew and love is really gone forever. Some kind urban settlement will remain, but New Orleans' downtown of hotel towers and megastructures may be the first comprehensive ruin of the Modernist city. Much of the stuff just outside New Orleans, and along the Gulf Coast, was largely post-war suburban fabric -- collector boulevards with their complements of fry pits, malls, muffler shops and subdivisions. We'd hope that the states of Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana will not undertake to rebuild them they way they were. The era of easy motoring is over now, and to rebuild suburban sprawl would be a double tragedy.

[pitohui]

27. what an absolutely idiotic quote

We'd hope that the states of Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana will not undertake to rebuild them they way they were.

insurance coverage only allows you to rebuild as they were & it knocks off for depreciation at that

new orleans is a WORKING city

it is a port, its location on the river is for a purpose, a very important part of this purpose being petroleum, refinery, & chemical corridor

a "green" city of latte-sipping bicycle nuts is not going to get the gas in the tanks or the groceries up the river

sheesh

it's a pipe dream there will be any spare $$$ to indulge in "green" fantasies

[MsTryska]

43. your chock-full of assumptions aren't you?

why don't you study up on what "green cities" and decreasing urban sprawl actually means before spreading your contempt.

[ultraist]

44. Front end costs are more with green building

Green building materials, heat and air systems, plumbing systems, etc are more costly for the builder/developer. Of course, for the owner and the planet, in the long run, they are more cost effective.

There is no way, that those in charge (big corporate developers, Haliburton types and the Bu$h regime), will decrease their upfront profit margin by building green.

It will be a miracle if they allow some diversity in housing, allowing lower income residents back in.

THAT, IMO, should be the first priority. Ensuring, that the city is not totally gentrified to the point, only wealthy whites can afford to live there.

Sadly, we'll be lucky if we get that much.

[MsTryska]

47. I agree......

I just think there's gotta be a way to get the Corporate Developers and Halliburton out of the rebuilding picture. There needs to essentially be a high-profile campaign against it.


this admin's already lost ground, further opposition will cause them to scramble, and quite possibly retreat and give in to demands.

This city has to be built by it's residents, and it's own planners who understand the city best, and have already espoused a more environmentally friendly approach prior to Katrina.

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. That would be very cool

[Village Idiot]

10. Unfortunately, it is now one of the most contaminated sites in USA

I have heard that scientists cannot properly test soil samples for contaminates because the amount of petroleum in the samples is completely masking everything else...

[MsTryska]

12. well I had posted a link to a blog entry

from someone who works in NO planning that discussed this very subject.


actually if you go to my blog (i've got an entry on rebuilding) there is a link to blogs that have almost exactly the same ideas i did.

www.the4thestate.blogspot.com

[KamaAina]

16. That link goes to someone else's blog from 2002 (!)

good thing we have sig lines back! Here you go:

http://www.the4thestate.blogspot.com

Nice. Very nice indeed. I wonder what happened to the people I knew down there who were trying to set up an urban ecology center. They'd love it.

When I first saw "4thestate", I read "4 the state (of La.)", not "fourth estate"!

[MsTryska]

17. *lmao* I'm a dork!

I can't even get my blog address down for y'all.

so yeah - good thing it was in my sig.

anyways - did you check the link int hat entry - i believe the blog i'm thinking of is changing times or change for tomorrow or soemthing - that guy was working on the Top 10 in 2010 project in NO. so much better perspective than me.

[KamaAina]

20. Kee-yaw! I actually know someone on that Top 10 committee!

know her husband, anyway, in fact I served as sort of an unofficial campaign adviser (think KKKarl Rove, only not evil :-) ) to his 1990 congressional campaign. We were working on just these same sorts of issues, back when everyone thought we were just a couple of kooks, er, "visionaries".

I would have never thought to try and contact his wife. Either one of them (preferably him, as she works for the evil empire that is Entergy, also called "Enron Jr.") would be an outstanding choice for Mayor Nagin's rebuilding committee. Thnak you for that, and... catch!

[MsTryska]

22. wow! and i didn't even have to

flash for them!


thanks!



but yeah - i work for the metro planning agency here in Atlanta - so to me this is an exciting opportunity - so many new things that can be put in place - as I've said in my blog, tho - I'm scared that rebuilding will wind up being row upon row of midrise condos.

that won't be so cool - but a true City of the future, maybe mostly semi-detached housing, with some condos and zero-lot line housing would be cool.

actually the only way I'd even be happy with Condos is if they were row-house style like we've been doing in Atlanta:

http://atlantacondospecialist.com/search_CND_detail.cfm?myproperty=3113082


this particular development, if you look at the bottom floor - has retail space in this case a really cool little restaurant/gourmet shop.


the three top floors comprise one house - but i don't see why that couldn't be split apartment style, to make things cheaper for people.

[ultraist]

45. I really hope they don't build only 600k condos like you posted

What a shame,that urban planners wipe out the historic, small, shotgun houses and bungalows, typically found in Black neighborhoods, and replace them with 'pretend historic' half million dollar and up condos and mixed use buildings that only yuppies can afford.

That's happening in our area too. Consequently, all lower income home owners and renters are being pushed out to the fringes.

Ironically, those developers claim they are adding architectually diversity to the urban centers, when in fact, the original historic structures are more unique than a new pre fabbish mixed use building. Sad.

[MsTryska]

48. I hope they don't either......

and those 600K condos aren't the urban planners - those are the corporate developers.


they've taken over Atlanta - and no ones particularly happy about it -other than the fact that the land use is in line with a more eco-friendly city.

I also hope the architecture is honored - one unique thing about New Orleans is the grid system, essentially zero-lot-line plots that existing neighborhoods were on. If they rebuilt those areas, almost exactly the way they are, except maybe adding in anchor Building that are of the Mixed-Use Condo variety (not for half a million dollars tho) on Corners and Junctions.....that would be better.

But the land has to be fortified first, before rebuilding the worst of the low-lying floodplains.

[Johonny]

13. I keep hearing the word

Reconstruction. Which if memory serves wasn't a great word to throw aroundin southern cities. What southern would get excited for the reconstruction of New Orleans!

[...of J.Temperance]

19. Well the Bush bastard described the Iraq adventure as a Crusade and

We all know how FANTASTIC that turned out don't we?

:sarcasm:

[maxsolomon]

14. it can be

if rove believes that co-opting the liberal issue of sustainability will keep the GOP in power.

a hundred years ago, it WAS a green city. no AC, no electricity. all the food was organic.

i volunteer to be the green nazi of NO.

[madrchsod]

15. i subscribed to many architectural and interior design trade

magazines and from what i am reading is that "green" or recyclable building materials is already being designed into all new projects. due to this most major building materials companies are joining the revolution by making products that contain recyclable materials. from from the designers, to the material companies, and to the people who put up the money-green is in.
i`ve read many articles about how the home building industry could transform itself and the materials they use but do to zoning laws and of course the lending institutions, the use 2x4 wood sticks is here to stay.

[midnight armadillo]

18. Could it? YEs. Should it? Yes. Will it? NOT ON YOUR LIFE.

Nice idea, but if it doesn't originate with the Heritage Foundation it ain't gonna happen.

[gauguin57]

21. Paging Al Gore ... Paging Al Gore ...

!

[henslee]

23. Nice thought butI don't see this happening. Getting an area whos

natives have been on the lower economic rung for so long to embrace lofy "green" notions is a far fetched thought. Yeah, constuction and rebuilding can be environmentally/conservationally responsible but I just don't see it. You gotta crawl before you can walk.

[MsTryska]

24. i disagree.

part of being "green" is having a walkable community with easy trasnportation to work and shopping etc - imo, if cities create robust public transportation, the lower economic rung would be "green" without even trying. and many of those who aren't on the lowest rung as well, but by choice, if not by necessity.

[pitohui]

28. you know half the problem is this "walkable" community

a lot more ppl would be alive today if they'd had their own damn car

make yr own city into a "walkable" city

i think a more urgent need in new orleans is for better wages so that ppl can afford cars

[MsTryska]

30. omg.

i have no words for that actually.



while you make a good point in the specific new orleans scenario, you miss the big picture.

[pitohui]

33. i don't miss that you're not getting my car

some ppl i know who lost their homes have nothing left except what they got out in their cars

i might sound a bit crusty, but you do not need to be decreasing the number of ppl who own & operate cars in the gulf coast or prob. in ANY coastal region

you need to increase the damn wages so ppl can make their own transportation choices, at which point most ppl will choose the option that gives them the most freedom & independence

THAT is the big picture

[MsTryska]

37. wrong - you're thinking

like an american actually. like your entitled to a car, and that's just that.


when it comes down to it, if there were high speed rail available - people could have evacuated NO, far more easily, and with more efficiency than sitting on what is it? I-90 in bumper to bumper, wasting fuel, trying to find someplace to flee to.


and everybody would have had the opportunity of fleeing.


encouraging cars for everybody, just leads to more oil dependency, more air pollution, more wasted land, and more damage to the envionment and to health.

[ultraist]

46. I think the point he/she is trying to make is...

A bigger priority is eliminating poverty and creating equal opportunity, including livable wages.

You are proposing a gentrified rebuild, where only the rich can afford to live. A green community, with mixed use buildings and half million dollar and more condos, brownstones, and detached homes, would push all lower income folks out to the margins.

Gentrifying NOLA would be phase II of the racist BS we've already seen happen in NOLA.

[MsTryska]

50. I'm not proposing a gentrified rebuild, tho.

Y'all are assuming that.


I'm proposing a more logical rebuild that doesn't try to sprawl out NO further. I'm proposing a rebuild that doesn't involve chain stores and Agrestic-style communities taking over things.


Or the Mid-rise condos and beachfront development that I fear is really going to wind up there.


What i'm proposing is a city that's built close in, and close together, where people can easily get around without having car - be able to get to their jobs, their shopping, their errands, and do it all by walking, riding a bike, or taking public transportation.


The design itself has no correlation with pricepoint. You can just as easily design in the manner you are speaking of, and keep it in line with the economics of the community your dealing with.

the reason you see it gentrifying neighborhoods now, is because it's the corporate developers who have the money and the guts to put the ideas out there. And most poorer communties would have to rely on public dollars to rebuild and renovate, and the public dollars just haven't been there.

The idea being espoused now by these corporate developers are the same design concepts that were used in building pre-automobile communities. Look at the boroughs of Manhattan - hell look at New Orleans before Katrina - it's the same concepts. Walkable cities, mixed use neighborhoods, live/work areas. The French Qarter is a perfect example.

[Bridget Burke]

35. New Orleans already had a pretty good transit system.

But the yuppies moving in will have money for cars.

[MsTryska]

38. i do agree with you.....

compared to many cities in the South it was far more walkable, and compact. And i think it's because it's an old city, I also liked that ti was built on a grid system, and had those fabulous trolley cars.

[ultraist]

49. Gentrification: racist means by which urban planners push out the poor

"Urban renewal"
"Liveable cities"
"Walkable city"

are all code for RACIST gentrification. Tearing down small shotgun houses, apt buildings and bungalows and replacing them with expensive mixed use buildings, where condos start at half a million is a the system's, racist way of pushing the poor out to the margins.

Pseudo environmentalists jump on board, touting their "green, walkable city" BS, when in fact, it takes MORE from the environment to tear down existing structures and build new ones. How many fucking trees will be cut down to build new mixed use structures? How much dumpage will there be to tear down existing structures and build yuppie condos?

FIRST priority should be ensuring that ALL income levels can afford to live in NOLA. Marginalizing poor people has big costs to our society.

[MsTryska]

51. No you've jsut got a half-assed idea

of what i'm talking about.


when you understand the concepts your throwing around like accusations, get back to me.

[ultraist]

52. When I understand the concepts?

You failed to mention including ALL incomes of dwellers and posted a 600k condo as an example! If we are only understanding half of your proposal, perhaps you should consider that you only offered half.

I understand the concepts. I have been forced to sell properties to our city, so they could tear them down and rebuild more expensive homes. My renters were low income folks who no longer can afford to live in that area.

I'm in real estate and deal with the city on a regular basis. I find their "urban renewal" plans to be racist vehicles, cloaked in catchy envio terms.

[MsTryska]

53. I posted a 600K example

of Architecture.

if you had read the post closely.

what do you mean you were "forced to sell"? Who was "forcing" you?


And as i said above - the "urban renewal" plans you are seeing certainly aren't federal plans - they're private developer plans, who are of course in it for a profit - the boards like them because they increase the tax base- giving the boards mor emoney to spend.


don't throw this on the planners - if the task is creating low-income housing, low-income housing will be produced - taking into account the same concepts of walkable cities, live/work communities, and urban renewal.

Those concepts have nothing to do with class, or economy or pricepoint.

it jsut so happens that early adopters (to the old way of doing things, ironically) have been those seeing the money to be made inc reating these communities for rich people.


Maybe it's my fault for not explaining that I expect this stuff to be done to economic scale. i thought that was self-evident, considering the numerous times i've mentioned that i don't want people priced out of their own communities.

[ultraist]

54. No, they aren't developer plans they are city plans

City plans have a LOT to do with class, RACE, and price. They also seriously consider building up their tax base, by building more expensive buildings---thus increased property taxes. Throw in the corrupt bidding process, corporate welfare to developers and voila, you have a very racist situation with gov officials running the game.

Are you really that trusting of city officials?

Please read deeper into gentrification, "projects", gov sponsored low income housing and then take a look at what is happening in major urban areas all over the nation. City planners are VERY much responsible for this. They have the ultimate control of zoning, blighted area calls, codes, and building regs. (Of course all local building regs must comply with the minimum fed standards).

To answer your question, we were "forced" to sell those properties to the city because if we didn't comply, they said they would eminent domain them.

[MsTryska]

56. Not exactly......

City Planners don't wield near the power you think they do.

they've got to work under the constraints of the boards - who I agree - are usually not to be trusdted.


the way i see it work in my area is the developer has an epiphany - they buy up as many plots as they can - get their plans ready (already holding deed for soem of the area they want to redevelop) - take it to the board, sell them on the idea - and the board gives them what they want, sometimes in spite of the heads up from planners regarding the impact.


it's not a friendly relationship between planners (who tend to be viewed as communists, wanting everyone to have a house), developers (whoa re intent on eating the poor) and boards (who make the ultimate decisions, and do so on the basis of property taxes).


I don't know what it looks like from outside, but i'm saying this from my experience on the inside of the process.

[SmokingJacket]

25. First, let's get those people out of the rain. Let's find their missing

children. Let's get them jobs and health care.

After that, let's make sure the levees are stronger and higher and how about fixing that Gulf dead zone??

If we can accomplish that much, it'll be a resounding success.

[henslee]

26. Amen.

[pitohui]

29. yes i hear that

if ppl had jobs, health care, ability to buy their transport & educate their children, they could decide for themselves just how green they would like to be

i'm v. uneasy abt the idea of imposing some "green" fantasy from on high

[CascadeTide]

32. It can be much cheaper

You can build a cob house for next to nothing. I don't know that it could be used in New Orleans but there are other building materials that would surely work.

I have a feeling that if you put a plan in front of someone to build their own house for 1/10th of what it would cost to build a traditional house, you would get a lot of interest.

Hopefully someone can come up with the plans...

[Bridget Burke]

34. Will the inhabitants on the lower economic rung have any say?

I'm sure Karl Rove will ask for their opinion. (Ha!)

Many environmentally responsible building methods are not necessarily more expensive. But the people with power don't give a shit.

[pitohui]

36. it's v. difficult to imagine they will

i would not appreciate being told i was being put in some "walkable" community

didn't they used to call those things "projects"

if you have choice, you want yr own home & car

some poor ppl, not the poorest of the poor, but some ppl who are quite poor did own their own homes & i suspect they would rather have those homes replaced, even if it be a small shotgun house, rather than being placed in some "community"

[Bridget Burke]

40. They already lived in a walkable community.

With a pretty good transit system.

Don't blame anything Karl Rove & his pals build on the environmentalists.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftofthedial]

39. maybe, if it were in another country

[Politicub]

41. Surely you jest!

That would be a wonderful thing, but with this bunch of crooks in power, it will be built back as a diesel-powered psycho theme park.

[SoCalDem]

42. W. Diesel Land

:)

[billelliottjr]

55. I'm sure that Bush will jump right onto the idea!

[entanglement]

57. I thought the plan was to make NO this color...