A question for my black DU brothers and sisters.

[SeattleGirl]

I'm a little nervous bringing this up, but since race/racism is certainly in the news because of the abysmal response to Katrina, I thought I would take a chance.

What brings this up is a story I just saw on CNN, where a black couple was being interviewed about the response to Katrina. I missed the very first part of it, so don't know where they live, but they do not seem to be from the affected areas. The wife was talking about the dead and dying, most of whom, as we know, are black She said "Seeing those beautiful black bodies lying there...." or something like that.

And that made me think of a line from "Jerry McGuire", where Cuba Gooding's character's wife told him he was a "proud, strong black man."

I see nothing wrong with either of those statements, but my thought at both of them, was, what if the word "white" was substituted for "black"? Especially in the "Jerry McGuire" quote. I was talking to several friends one day about this, and I said that if I heard that statement and it was directed at a white man, my first thought would be, I wonder if he's going to remind his wife to pick up his sheet and hood at the cleaners on the way home?

Again, I don't have any problem with either statement I quoted above, but I am wondering if, like me, it would sound weird for such statements to be addressed to or about white people.

Anyway, as I said, I feel a little nervous about asking this, but I really do want to know. So, here goes.....

[hardrainfallin]

1. I'll tell you what sounds wierd to me

is when white people (Shrub is prime example) somehow feel the need to address Black people as "brothers and sisters" but, when addressing white people, do not seem to feel the same need.

In the example of Chimpie-Boy: I have never ever heard him address any other population of this country as "brothers and sisters" (he might say the "good people of such and such", the "hard-working folks down in....") but when it comes to Black people it's suddenly all about "brothers and sisters".

What's up with that?

Is that a white thing I don't understand or what?

[shraby]

4. I think the use of "brothers and sisters"

is to try to convey the idea that there is no animosity intended and that they also care about all people...not Bush though, he has a far different motivation.

[seabeyond]

74. even talking to white male and female, when i am being "one"

with them i go to brother and sister. it is to be we are all one, regardless of age or race or religion. fellowman

[SeattleGirl]

5. I think that is weird too.

I say brothers and sisters regarding white people as well as black. So maybe it is a white thing for some whites anyway. Not for this one. I'm wondering if it's a "white thing" for whites who do not live around many blacks -- their way of identifying with or connecting to "the people" (and we all know Chimpy couldn't connect even if he wanted to!)

[hardrainfallin]

7. I don't know, it just sounds very suspiciously

like "liberal white guilt".

I consider it condescending and it makes my hair stand on end whenever I hear it.

I don't call anyone "brother or sister", though I do (esp. as a person of native american descent) believe we "are all related" -- based on that basic premise, I don't see why it is necessary to stress the brother/sister thing toward anyone or anything, including my cat (who happens to be black) and/or my eagle feather (which happens to be white).

To me, it's suspect and it sets off bells and alarms.

[SeattleGirl]

11. Sorry you feel that way

It's now how I meant it. It is not only black people I might address that way. I do not feel any guilt about using that term, and did not use it out of guilt. I know things mean different things to different people, and if someone I addressed in a certain way didn't like it and told me so, I would not use that term any more. I don't walk around being deliberately disrespectful of anyone. I guess some terms are easy for people to take, others aren't. Hope you can turn your bells and alarms off. :-)

[hardrainfallin]

16. I'm not saying that you are, really.

Just trying to make you aware of the fact that, if it sets off bells for me, it *might* also set them off for others (especially blacks): Actually, I'll be straight up honest with you: most black people I know --and again, I live in an almost exclusively black world -- roll their eyes when they hear it coming from white people. (That's not "speculation"--it's what I KNOW to be true from almost a lifetime spent living in black or mixed Indian/Black communities).

I'm not trying to offend you or accuse you of racism: just saying, this is how it is in my community (and you'll probably be able to find x-number of black people who would be willing to come in and say, that person doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. Well. Sorry, but it IS the way this is generally perceived in my community--but most of my community does NOT post on the Internet).

If you're serious about addressing racism, you also have to be open to hearing these things and being aware of your language: being aware that the language you use MIGHT (not necessarily, but MIGHT) be interpreted in ways that you never intended; and in ways that most people would NEVER bother pointing out to you, but would rather inconspicuously roll their eyes, and think to themselves "whatever". In other words, truly addressing racism involves the willingness to go beyond your intent and your perception of your words and listen to how these might be perceived by the proverbial "horse of another color" ;)

And about the bells and alarms: sorry, turning them off is a thing of impossibility: I am a mixed race person living in a society founded on genocide, with a 500-year history of racist disregard for everything I hold sacred, a history that has wiped out my cultural traditions, my languages, wiped sacred sites off the face of the earth--and destroyed my entire family.

Gotta learn to live with the bells and alarms. Maybe you should consider turning yours on.

Peace

[SeattleGirl]

35. What you say is true

And I knew I was opening myself up for some things I might not want to hear, but that's okay, because that's one of the ways I can learn, that we all can learn. If I did say something that someone found offensive, even if that was not my intention, I would rather hear about it, even if it embarassed me for a moment. If I don't know that I am offending or hurting someone, again unintentionally, how could I change or learn if I was not told.

That would also be the other side of what you say, when you talk about people rolling their eyes. While I have to be open to possible criticism, or at the very least, someone telling me that what I said hurt or offended them, that person has to be willing to TELL me that they are hurt or offended. They don't have to scream at me or cuss me out (though I suppose there are some who would react that way), but tell me. Rolling eyes or shaking heads won't convey how someone feels in a clear way.

So again, it comes down to dialogue. The offender needs to learn not to offend, but the offended one needs to learn to say what has offended them, tell it to that person. I think that is going to be one of the key things in trying to start healing the racial problems in this country. Ain't gonna be easy, by any stretch, and there will probably be some angry words along the way, but if we can keep at it, we might make some progress.

[hardrainfallin]

43. You are certainly right, and the eye rolling routine

can be very annoying. We ALL have to be willing to participate in the dialogue.

I think black people (and minorities in general) have just gotten so used to their words falling on deaf ears that the eye-rolling routine is a way of coping because there aren't a lot of white people who are really sincere about being willing to listen and you can only talk to the damn wall for so long, you know.

I sometimes feel like I'm in a rather "privileged" position by being mixed race and being able to cross back and forth over the proverbial "tracks".

I end up doing a lot of "mediating" in that way.

And what you say about the anger, yeah, it's real. I think,even though I am ethnically and culturally (and legally) Indian (Ojibwe/Chippewa), I still possess "white skin privilege" and, acknowledging that, have always been willing to let black people scream bloody murder at me if that's what they felt was appropriate.

And shit, in the course of my "edjumucation" (as my cousins up north in Indian Country say) I've gotten my ass slapped right down for any number of infringements that I had no clue were even infringements.

Live, listen and learn.

I'm outta here for the night.

Nice talkin' to you and see you round the board...

[kestrel91316]

41. Don't think of "liberal white guilt" as condescending ....................

it's anything but. I suffer from it on occasion, but I don't use it as a way to talk down to somebody...........

If somebody is acting or talking like they feel guilty for something their own race or class has done wrong, consider that they may feel that way because they TRULY CARE and would make it right if it were in their power to do so.

[hardrainfallin]

48. I don't doubt that a lot of what we see as

"liberal white guilt" (in a negative sense) is sincere regret and comes from a sincere desire to help.

But it often fails because, on a subconscious level, the "racially superior" (IRONY) partner in the exchange refuses to simply accept what the "racially inferior" (IRONY) person has to say and expects instead that the person to whom the "liberal white guilt" is directed accept their behavior as is, rather than change it.

Fundamentally, I think that if a person of (darker) color than me says to me: hey, that comes off as condescending or paternalistic to me, I, as the person of lighter color have to *think* about that and accept it, even if it doesn't make a lick of sense to me: it's on me to change my behavior if that behavior makes them uncomfortable, and, if i am sincere about my "guilt" (let's call it regret), then it's not my position to question that: it's my position to change the behavior.

It begins by "making it right" between two human individuals, and that means, to me at least, if a black person says: hey, your liberal white guilt is showing, I try to figure out why my sincere regret is coming off as liberal white guilt and thereby getting in the way of our ability to co-exist on a level playing field.

[TahitiNut]

23. I call people "cousin" occasionally ... because it's literally true.

:shrug:

[hardrainfallin]

26. cousin has different implications

and is incidently very widespread in the Indian community for the very reasons you state.

the "brothers and sisters"-thing is a different dynamic.

[SeattleGirl]

29. My husband just got back from a family reunion on his dad's side

His dad's family is Chippewa, and that was one of the things he told me when he came back, how everyone, related or not, called each other "cousin" (unless of course they were your mom, dad, etc.)

[hardrainfallin]

30. yep.

did he fill you in on the commodity cheese?

[SeattleGirl]

32. LOL, yes he did!

:rofl:

[hardrainfallin]

33. Believe it or not....

I actually FOUND one of my real, blood cousins (or shall I say he found me?) as the result of a joke I posted about commodity cheese on an Internet message board.

Small fucking world, eh.

And, yeah, we ARE all related.

Now how we gonna get the word out on that?

Maybe mandatory field trips to the Badlands, as a prerequisite for 6th grade graduation?

(I'd be tempted to stipulate "Red Lake", but that would be mean!;)

[SeattleGirl]

37. Are you joking? That's too cool!

Wish everyone would realize how small the world really is.

[hardrainfallin]

39. believe me, just one story among many,

i'm starting to feel like my life is a page straight out of Ripley's Believe it or Not!

The only surviving member of my "nyuklear" ;) family, a sister who was given up for adoption anno 1962, also found me on the Net. Based on a fucking traffic ticket! (I've probably only ever gotten 2-3 of them in my life)....We had both been looking for at least 10 yrs, if not more.

[lonestarnot]

38. Not weird... we are all from the same mould...all men all women...

[hardrainfallin]

42. Not wierd to *you* but undeniably wierd

to a lot of people.

I would never so much as consider going up to a group of people I didn't know WELL and address them as "brothers and sisters"

just threw that one out at the only "native informant" currently in the room (my domestic partner, who is black). Partner says it would be considered an "impropriety."

Here's what my black partner says, confirming my sense of "propriety" based, as I said, on lifelong "embeddedness" in black communities: Unless the term "brothers and sisters" is being used by whites to address blacks in an explicitly religious context or gathering (say a Baptist revival or the like), it is considered condescending and paternalistic on the part of the whites. The terms "brother" and "sister" have a ring of "familiarity" that is not appropriate based on the current state of race relations in this country (i.e. the playing field STILL is not level). It's not as offensive as "boy" or "girl" in the ol' confederate sense of the terms, but it comes close. So sayeth the Strong Black Domestic Partner who's pretty "in tune" to the community and its "rules of decorum". ;)

So, addressing black people in those terms--however well-intended--is *likely* to have the opposite effect: whereas the intent is to express "relation" and "relatedness", what the effect (from the perspective of the receiver) is often just the opposite--it is alienating.

That's all I have to say about it. It is the way it is. You can respect it or continue to "do it your way" without taking into consideration the "rules of decorum" as established by black communities. And in this way, the wheels will keep spinning and misunderstandings will prevail.

I am mixed race, light enough to look "white," and I would not address a black person or a group of black people with "brothers and sisters" unless we were "familiar" enough for that to be OK -- for THEM -- and I do not determine the point at which that degree of "familiarity" exists, they do. Just by virtue of the fact that our society is what it is, I leave it to the black person to decide when he or she feels comfortable being considered my "relative".

Rarely takes very long. But what I do know is that I don't have a shot in hell if I start off with "hey brother...".

[lonestarnot]

50. Guess you've never been a union member then egh?

[hardrainfallin]

52. not in this country

but I also fail to see what that has to do with the statement I made; based on the statements you've made here, I can imagine a lot of eye-rolling going on in your vicinity--whether you're aware of it or not, and whether your fellow union members would ever admit it (highly likely). Admittedly, pure speculation. I don't know you and won't judge you based on these few comments. But the bells and alarms are ringing. Dingee dingee.

the only person I see on this thread who appears to have "gotten" it is SeattleGirl; and actually, anyone who is paying attention will have noticed that an incredibly important exchange took place between us which COULD be a model for the kind of dialogue that needs to take place in order to begin the long and painful process of dismantling internalized racism--the forms of racism that are much more insidious than the overt racism of Bushco and followers precisely because they are so hard to detect, and to admit.

White people are so used to writing the fucking rule book that they don't even realize that they're doing it--that is, writing the rule book.

If racism is an "illness" (and I think it is), the "patients" (ie the white folk) don't get to write the script--at least not if the goal is to find a "cure".--and no, I do not believe that ANY person, myself included, who enjoys (irony!) "white skin privilege" is immune from internalized racism. It is so firmly rooted in the fabric of our society that it afflicts EVERYONE. Without engaging in a conscious process of dismantling it as it exists within yourself, it's not going to go away.

Kinda like alcoholism that way: the first step is admitting it. If you accept that it is a "disease", then that step can be taken without seeking to place "blame"--but denial does not cut the mustard.

In that sense, even for me, a person of mixed race/ethnicity, I'm a "recovering racist" -- gotta good 20 yrs 'sobriety' under my belt.

Sounds to me like you have yet to take the first step. Again: sounds that way, i'm not saying it IS that way.

I don't know you, so I can't say for sure.

[Karenina]

55. Tee-hee-hee!

:applause: :yourock: :applause:

[leftchick]

56. Best Post Of the day regarding Racism!

and it is indeed a disease!

:yourock: hardrainfallin!

:)

[hardrainfallin]

57. wow. I thought I was gonna get bitch-slapped for that one ;)

:blush:

thanks for not blowing up on me. :grouphug:

[leftchick]

73. as a white chick I gotta say

I am ashamed of the way So Many white folks in this country STILL don't get it. You have expressed it in terms even a freeper could understand. That is if they had the inclination to.

peace cousin,
lc

:)

[hardrainfallin]

76. you can also call me Niiji...

which means "little friend" in Ojibwe

oh...and hey...if you think you can fry some freeps with those words you just go right ahead...

call it "freep frybread" and share share share....

[lonestarnot]

81. and p.s. Niiji is a nice name little friend.

[Misunderestimator]

58. Nicely said!

:thumbsup:

And welcome to DU! :toast:

[hardrainfallin]

59. so *YOU'RE* the one who took my preferred screenname!

damn, beat me to it--judging from post number, by a long shot.

[Misunderestimator]

61. How funny! Nice to meet you... you have good taste as well as sense.

:)

[hardrainfallin]

64. another blush and ditto....seriously

I went through every Bushism in the book before I had to resort to dylantenntism.

:crazy:

and I admit it.

still.
After all these years.

[progmom]

71. this is really good!

:hi: thanks for putting it into words.

[lonestarnot]

78. ok Just saw your post to me, was very tired last night. And I see that

you are insinuating that I am a racist... LOL Crack me up.

[lonestarnot]

80. Nope, you don't know me, but I will do my best to introduce myself if you

care to step back from these posts. I was raised by a Texas cowboy and fought with and against him until nearly the day he died over his deep rooted bigotry. I am sure that there is some unconsciencious root that has not surfaced within me due strictly to this heritage, however, many of my associates, friends and even my spouse was darker skinned than I, but to me skin is just an organ of the body, an irrelevant factor not worth considering, and I would sooner have someone with a darker biological organ than mine as a lighter toned organ, as it is the person that is clothed in this colored or lack of colored organ that would be my sister or my brother, not the organ itself. I love all people but bushitlers no matter what fucking color they are! and as for them I HATE THEM AND ALL THEY STAND FOR! sorry.

[hardrainfallin]

82. Did you see my post 77, in which I explain that

I hadn't known this about the unions?

So in that sense I step back from that point.

But I stick to my guns on the "writing the rule book"-thing. And in my book, race and ethnicity *does* matter. But the fact that it "matters" doesn't mean it has to degenerate into racism.

To me, and to most Indians and Blacks I know, ethnicity is NOT irrelevant. It is highly relevant. Because so much of our culture/s have been destroyed, denied and/or outright STOLEN from us, we are often very adamant and ardent about asserting our ethnic identity (and indeed, in many people to the point of absurdity).

I don't think getting rid of racism is about becoming "color blind" or completely leveling all difference between peoples. It is about respecting and understanding difference. And that also means respecting boundaries and the "rulebooks" of others. We have been forced to follow the White Man's rule book for 500 years in this country. No more.

One of the most ridiculous statements I have ever in my life heard is the line: "we are all the same inside." Well, we aren't. I know for me personally, my "insides" are simply TORN APART by what has been done to the maternal side of my ancestry. I have lost my entire immediate family to the vicious machine that is colonialist culture. In fact, as a direct result of it, I never knew what a family WAS until I reached adulthood. As many as 16 Million people Indian were slaughtered so that this culture they call "America" could come in here, carve the faces of murderers into one of our most sacred, sacred sites--a site, the Black Hills, that is not LIKE a temple to US, it IS the temple--and it has been permanently, irreparably defaced with the grimaces of men who have our blood on their hands. Yes, I am referring to the TRAVESTY that is Mt. Rushmore. Every time another piece of pristine wilderness or other natural wonder is infringed upon--by mining, by drilling, nuclear waste disposals--when land is cleared to make way for shopping malls, churches!, synagogues!, mosques! -- a piece of our hearts are cut out. You may as well be driving stakes into our hearts: and our children are the ones hardest hit by it. There is a terrible, terrible epidemic of suicide among Native youth sweeping the country, and we know it is because of what is happening at an ever increasing rate and with ever more devastating consequences to the land, to the people, to the culture, the language.

Wounded Knee. Do you understand what it means to say "bury my heart at wounded knee"? Even if you do, it is not the same. It does not mean that what my insides look like are any better or more worthy than your insides, but they are not the same. In the same way, I cannot in any way share the feeling that Christians have at the sight of Christ on the Cross. I cannot. It does not move me. And despite the fact that much of the desttruction that has been wrought on this land has been at the hands of Christianity (and Christians), I respect their right to believe what they believe. I cannot say that the "passion of Christ" is any less than the "passion of Chief Joseph". No. But they are not the same.

And it is the same with Black people. I cannot share with them, not in the same way, the cultural memory and significance of former slave port-turned cultural icon New Orleans. I cannot. I do not know what it feels like to have a history as horrific as that of the Atlantic Slave trade in my heart, in my mind, in my blood. But I respect that history. Our histories are different. How we got here. How long we have been here. I respect that difference.

Even the difference between a Christian and a Jew--religions that have common roots. These differences need to be understood and respected, not ignored or wiped away by saying, ey we're all the same. Indeed, these differences need to be celebrated and preserved.

We aren't the same inside anymore than we are on the outside. That is what diversity is all about. We need to learn to appreciate and nourish rather than disparage and seek to destroy the differences between us.

My religion, my Ojibwe religion, has NEVER been respected in this country, except in more recent years as a trinket and tinkertoy for newage soulseekers who've finally acknowledged the void in their own hearts, souls and minds. American Indians were not "granted" religious freedom until 1978 in this country, with the passage of the American Indian Freedom of Religion Act. That fact alone has a major impact on "how I am inside." And it is but one of many.

We are not made up of organs alone. Each of us carries the history of his/her own people inside. It is what we bring to the diversity table.

Monoculture is boring. It is also lethal.

Nature knows that, and that is why there is so much diversity in nature.

This culture, unfortunately, even as it purports to foster diversity actually ends up squelching it. Destroying it. Replacing it with a thin white veneer of monotony.

And if it does not stop doing that, it will kill itself off. That is the way of nature. Nature needs diversity to survive, and so do we.

[lonestarnot]

83. And I do not disagree with you in fact I applaud this diversity that makes

us all unique, but we all bleed red blood in the long and short of it and that cannot be changed or diversified. I understand what you are saying and recognition of what has happened to culture due to some power hungry thieving intruders cannot be changed back in time, but it can be recognized and appreciated as we proceed into the future and future relationships. People must appreciate and groom diversity, not trample or call it out as odd.

What you have communicated is beautiful and tears at my heartstrings, but I am not complicit with existing racism, classism and do my best to isolate away from these types or fight them in ways they do not realize even exist as I believe they are evil.

[hardrainfallin]

84. we'll have to agree to disagree then,

my point, which was well-taken by some, is that we are ALL complicit in it.

How can we not be?

You'd have to have to be a born in a bubble NOT to be complicit in it.

At this point, I'd probably content this is true no matter where you are born on the planet. It didn't used to be that way.

In the 80s I remember....travels to a certain little pocket in Africa where I had the feeling, there is little racism here, little classism...

Alas, the "Americans" have since arrived in full force there, too, and I doubt I'll ever return.

Feels too much like "my fault" for having blabbed about the "world's best kept secret."

Some secrets, indeed, are better left untold.

[noiretextatique]

70. union members address each other as "brothers and sisters"

the terms are not reserved just for the black members.

[hardrainfallin]

77. Ok, if that's true, then that's another "exception"

like the church-specific one
but the stuff about the "rule book" still applies, I think, in general.

(sorry, never had much "union" experience for the duration of the time I spent living below the poverty line. Is there a waitress union? A cleaning lady union? Cab drivers union? dunno. These days I'm doing the white collar thing, and my black partner has pretty much always done the white collar thing....so sorry for that gap in my overtheedjumucation...)

[noiretextatique]

87. lol...i was in the UAW

when i worked for mother jones magazine. i was actually an officer of our newly formed local, which consisted of us and the sierra club. i had the opportunity to go to their annual civil rights conference, just after mandela was elected president of south africa. i was really impressed with the work they were doing, especially in terms of educating members about racism and sexism. there was an incredibly moving presentation by a union attorney who described her experience working with trade unionists in south africa...ironically, the UAW invited to observe the election there :eyes: she showed a film about the all the people who were voting for the first time in their lives: the black south africans. the grandmothers and grandfathers, and the young people...it still makes me :cry: perhaps were should invite some south africans over here to for our next election, since we seem to have so many "glitches." i had no idea what to expect to be honest, and of course, most people weren't accoutants for a magazine...they were auto workers, hard-working regular folks. i had one of the most interesting learning experiences of my life, and met some really great people who are out there working in their communities and trying to make a difference in their workplaces.
i really appreciated your comments in this thread...they were right on. i agree 100% with your partner about "brothers and sisters," especially when poeple like bush use it (you know it's meant to be condescending when he does it). and as you so graciously pointed out several times, even if it isn't intended to be condescending, it could be perceived that way. i cringed at little when i saw the title of this thread, to be honest, so i was pleased to read your exchange with the OP. welcome, cousin :D i am comanche, and of course black.

[hardrainfallin]

90. Hey, cuz! thanks for the praises....unfortunately am totally

under time pressure (why do you think they call em DEAD lines?)....and would love to respond more to your comments....for now, just had this great article sent to me by a friend and wanted to use this thread as opp. to post it (it's probably worth a thread of it's own....)

It made me cry to read this article, b/c I keep thinking: it is incumbent upon US, all of US, the people of this United States of TURTLE ISLAND to make sure that these lives were sacrificed for some kind of "noble cause" and the only "noble cause" that would be would be the complete and total deconstruction of racism and white privilege.....

This article, in my view, is a major step in the right direction. It is brutally honest. And we need to be brutally, brutally honest with ourselves if we ever hope to salvage anything from this travesty.

These people will NOT have died in vain, not if I have anything to do with it.

Another huge huge gaping hole has been torn into the soul of this country. It's our job to fix it. Now.

indinaway muginag.
(all my relations)


http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=30&ItemID=8698

The Fears of White People
by Robert Jensen

September 08, 2005
 



The first, and perhaps most crucial, fear is that of facing the fact that some of what we white people have is unearned. It's a truism that we don't really make it on our own; we all have plenty of help to achieve whatever we achieve. That means that some of what we have is the product of the work of others, distributed unevenly across society, over which we may have little or no control individually. No matter how hard we work or how smart we are, we all know -- when we are honest with ourselves -- that we did not get where we are by merit alone. And many white people are afraid of that fact.
 
A second fear is crasser: White people's fear of losing what we have -- literally the fear of losing things we own if at some point the economic, political, and social systems in which we live become more just and equitable. That fear is not completely irrational; if white privilege -- along with the other kinds of privilege many of us have living in the middle class and above in an imperialist country that dominates much of the rest of the world -- were to evaporate, the distribution of resources in the United States and in the world would change, and that would be a good thing. We would have less. That redistribution of wealth would be fairer and more just. But in a world in which people have become used to affluence and material comfort, that possibility can be scary.
 
A third fear involves a slightly different scenario -- a world in which non-white people might someday gain the kind of power over whites that whites have long monopolized. One hears this constantly in the conversation about immigration, the lingering fear that somehow "they" (meaning not just Mexican-Americans and Latinos more generally, but any non-white immigrants) are going to keep moving to this country and at some point become the majority demographically. Even though whites likely can maintain a disproportionate share of wealth, those numbers will eventually translate into political, economic, and cultural power. And then what? Many whites fear that the result won't be a system that is more just, but a system in which white people become the minority and could be treated as whites have long treated non-whites. This is perhaps the deepest fear that lives in the heart of whiteness. It is not really a fear of non-white people. It's a fear of the depravity that lives in our own hearts: Are non-white people capable of doing to us the barbaric things we have done to them?
 
A final fear has probably always haunted white people but has become more powerful since the society has formally rejected overt racism: The fear of being seen, and seen-through, by non-white people. Virtually every white person I know, including white people fighting for racial justice and including myself, carries some level of racism in our minds and hearts and bodies. In our heads, we can pretend to eliminate it, but most of us know it is there. And because we are all supposed to be appropriately anti-racist, we carry that lingering racism with a new kind of fear: What if non-white people look at us and can see it? What if they can see through us? What if they can look past our anti-racist vocabulary and sense that we still don't really know how to treat them as equals? What if they know about us what we don't dare know about ourselves? What if they can see what we can't even voice?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

60. And whatever you do, don't call them "homeys"

I didn't mean to make light of your very excellent posts in this matter, but one thing that is BEYOND weird and worse is white people feigning familiarity by using "street talk" ..again, it's a put down.

I agree with your points..all well made

[hardrainfallin]

62. ROFLMAO!

[Modem Butterfly]

66. That sounds weird to other folks, too.

[shadowknows69]

72. I'm white and I call most people brother or sister

if they're friends of mine or even what I consider a kind human being. with bush though it does seem to have a racial intent to it. I ask our African American members is it offensive to you if a white person calls you brother or sister?

[lonestarnot]

79. This is the post I was responding to...Here in the U.S., it is common

practice to refer to other union members as union brother, union sister, race doesn't play. If you are black and I am black, you are Brother Bill, if I am black and you are white, you are still Brother Bill, if I am white and you are black, you are still Brother Bill. I think we must have miscommunicated.

[NVMojo]

2. hmmm, I am white and I don't need this explained to me ...

for how many years has America been "a white man's world?" Just ask any Native American. True, for some minorities things have changed but not for all or not all have felt it.

Besides, who else got to wear white hoods?

[SeattleGirl]

6. That's what I think too, which is why I don't use those phrases

to other white people. It really sounds weird. But then, I don't usually use them with black people either, as it would sound fake to me.

But I really wanted to hear other people's points of view on this. As I said, the racism issue has been torn wide open at this point in time, and I think we ignore it at our peril.

[hardrainfallin]

8. I *AM* Native American (see last post)

and I *do* need an explanation for that, especially so since I see very little DEEP understanding of notion that "we are all related"

[SeattleGirl]

12. Can you clarify please?

I looked at your last post, and am not sure what you are asking, i.e. "need and explanation for that". Thanks.

[hardrainfallin]

17. for why it is necessary for

white people to refer to blacks as "brothers and sisters"

Put it another way: wouldn't it seem wierd to see a thread titled

"To My White DU Brothers and Sisters"

I think it would.

[SeattleGirl]

24. Yes it would, which is why I asked me questions in the first place

I do see your point, hardrainfallin. And again, I wasn't trying to offend anyone, just asking a question. I'm not going to stop saying "brothers and sisters", because I do feel a connection. And the deepest connection I feel, in all honesty, is to Native Americans. In college I was drawn to Native American culture, particularly to their stories, and the spiritual culture. I did an independent paper about it, and several years later, after reading a particular book that included a lot of the history of what was done to the Native Americans in this country, I felt I was actually in the place in the book (The Badlands). I know I cannot convey to you in an email how real this experience was to me, but it was. I sat down and wrote a 14 page letter to the author, tears pouring down my face, not even aware of the words I was writing until I read it over.

Anyway, maybe this is why talking about race and racism is so damned hard in this country. Those of us who want to talk about it, with people of different races, can have a hard time formulating the questions, not out of "white guilt" but because we (or at least I) don't want to offend. We want a conversation.

[hardrainfallin]

28. OK, I give in, you can call me 'cousin' ;)

but again, pls don't misunderstand me as accusing you of racism

if you want the conversation, you also have to listen even if it's uncomfortable.

I won't deny you your choice of language, and I'll trust that it's sincere.

I think part of dealing with the racism issue, tho, includes being able to hear it when someone says, hey, you know, that could be taken the wrong way?

That's all I was trying to say.

And I'm sure the author of that book, btw, was very happy to get your letter.

I know the Badlands, and I know how much power they have--on ANYONE who is aware, so yeah, I believe you when you say how "real" that experience was.

It's the one consolation you know: they cannot, will not ever be able to strip these places of their power, and the more people who come in contact with that power...well the closer we come to critical mass.

[SeattleGirl]

31. Cousin, then!

See my post above about what my husband told me after his family reunion with the Chippewa side of his family (dad's side).

And no, they cannot take that power away from those places, even if they covered them with condos.

[hardrainfallin]

34. yeah, we were "cross-posting" LOL. eom.

[wanpete]

3. I think this is a visceral reaction because the term "black" has so

often been associated with dirty, ugly, bad, evil, etc.... so often, we as blacks, must continually remind ourselves and others that we are indeed beautiful. I don't think it was meant in any racially offensive way. It just an affirmation to us in a world that so often denigrates and belittles our existence.

Katrina has truly enlightened us, hopefully, and America, that we have a long way to go in this country as far as race relations are concerned and that there is a pathological connection between race and class.

[SeattleGirl]

9. A friend of mine (black) told me that that was why many of the

Motown groups in the 60's dressed up -- the women in beautiful gowns and the men in suits, again to combat the "dity, ugly, bad, evil" connotation unfortunately associated with people of color.

And I hope my original post did not imply I found it racially offensive, as I do not in the least. It's just a part of a culture that I was again made aware of today when I saw the story on CNN.

Thanks for your comments, wanpete. I also hope that this whole race/class thing can be talked about more openly. Burying it may make it SEEM as if it is not as bad as it was in the 60s, but actually, it makes it worse, as people walk around in their somnabulitic state and think "we don't have those kinds of problems any more", when in fact we do. And having spent a lot of time in the south when I was growing up and hearing the "n" word thrown about so much, and having watched the incidents of turning dogs and fire hoses onto groups of African Americans, I think that what has been exposed by Katrina shows that even if the dogs and hoses aren't visible, the attitudes that brought them out in the first time are definitely still here.

[hardrainfallin]

10. I'm not suggesting that it was meant in a racially

offensive way, just pointing out that it could (as in my case, and I suspect, for most of my neighbors ) ...how shall we say..."set off alarms" or at least stand out as conspicuous, especailly since it is acknowledged that racism is a very deeply ingrained (internalized?) aspect of this "society".

In Shrub's case it's clear, especially when just one day earlier he referred to those "brothers and sisters" as "those people" in "that part of the world"

Right.

That part of the world.

Louisiana.

[SeattleGirl]

13. I remember that. What a puke!

I long ago figured out that if you aren't rich and white, you really have no place in Chimpy's world, and he probably DOES see Louisiana as a different world.

[hardrainfallin]

19. was it fucking unreal or what? That part of the world. eom

[kath]

44. yeah, it really freaked me out, too. "that part of the world" - WTF?

[Virginian]

21. I wonder if the phrase changes depending on who he is with?

Do you think he says "those people" unless he is in their company and then it is "Brothers and Sisters from the 'Hood?" He is such a phony.

Sorry, I'm not black, but I had a question, too.

Is this tragedy going to spotlight race relations so that we can raise our understanding of one another to the next level and be a better, more empathetic country?

[hardrainfallin]

25. About shrub, yes, that seems to be the pattern

in response to your question:

I sure hope it does.

Sadly, what the spectacle of the past few weeks, and the lack of response I am seeing "on the streets" just confirmed for me what I have long lamented:

MOST people in this country STILL do not really, really see black people (lets forget about Indians, they don't see us at ALL) as "brothers and sisters." They don't.

"We are all related" is NOT getting through. If it were, there would have been massive, massive riots in the streets. The sixties would have looked like a fucking punch and judy show.

The fact that there was not a spontaneous outburst of absolute outrage and the fact that there has been so little public GRIEVING.....sorry, I can't find any other explanation for it: deep in the deepest heart of America's heart, blacks are still not part of the "family". They are still "those people".

[tjdee]

18. Good explanation, I think you're right...it irritates me to no end though.

I'm black, and it drives me up the frickin wall when I hear that.

Which is strange, because I completely agree with the motives underlying it. I mean, I've been watching Hindi/Bollywood films lately, and they remind me of the same sort of issues. My sweet Shahrukh Khan was quoted a few weeks back as saying that people never found him attractive, and one of the reasons he listed was his brown color. That's a shame. And he's like, the hottest man on the planet for pete's sake!

I'd still be reluctant to tell him he's one beautiful brown man. Because the implication to me, is "for a brown man, you're beautiful."
If he's hot, he's hot for any race. If he's a proud man, he's a proud man of any kind.

:shrug:

[RandomKoolzip]

36. Aishwarya Rai is ALSO super-hot.

Beauty knows no color...for me at least. I'd take a Tyra Banks or a Beyonce over a Paris Hilton ANYDAY of the week.

[tjdee]

40. Most of them are superhot...most Indian actors are drop dead good looking.

Eh, JMO. I think Bollywood stars on a whole are far more stunning to look at than the stars we have here. But I'm not going to kick George Clooney and Jude Law out of bed, LOL.

Bollywood just distress me a lot because of the color issues at work there, what with the Fair and Lovely creams, one star making a snide comment about another's brown skin, etc. They go out of their way to appear lighter, and that's kind of sad. I mean, when a man of SRK's hotness is talking about not being attractive because he's brown? And he's an Indian, living in India saying that? That's just not right.

[SeattleGirl]

47. Oh my God, she is stunning!

And for what it's worth, I think Paris Hilton is uglier than *(^(^%&.

[Cats Against Frist]

92. You obviously haven't ever heard of something called

"the white standard of beauty." Which is what Ms. "super hot" above conforms to -- as well as Beyonce, with her long, straightened blonde hair and light skin, and Tyra, with her light skin, long, straightened, sometimes-blonde hair.

My "Race, Ethnicity and Inequality" teacher would have laughed her ass off, at your post. Those women aren't "black," they're "white-i-fied." Pronounced ethnic facial traits are not desirable in "the super hot" women's club.

[StellaBlue]

53. to me

this whole 'beautiful black/brown/Indian/Chinese man' thing comes across as both what you are saying (that the person in question is not just a beautiful MAN, as a human) and also a bit like the speaker thinks the person is more beautiful BECAUSE they are black/brown/whatever.

I saw that report on CNN, too, and I did have a little cringe experience when that woman said that about the 'beautiful black people'. It just sort of smacks of subconscious 'noble savage' thinking to me... which is of course bigoted.

People are beautiful or not, right? The people that I find beautiful, I find beautiful based on their individuality, not because they are of a certain ethnic group. That strikes me as really weird. As a white person, it would never occur to me to refer to the white people who were stranded as 'those beautiful white people'.

?!

[StellaBlue]

54. also

For me, personally, I don't find white people particularly beautiful. I have never understood the blond, blue-eyed fixation of the media.

I understand the whole 'black is beautiful' 60s/70s thing - they were right - black cans be beautiful, too, despite 400 years of violence and oppression.

BUT not all black people are beautiful (I am speaking aesthetically here, not in terms of their humanity), and neither are whites or Asians or anyone else. There are some very unaesthetically-pleasing people of all races. And of course we all have different personal prefernces, which in many cases seem to be both biological and environmental... personally, though I am predominantly white/Anglo genetically and completely white/Anglo culturally, I find that I think Latin/Mediterannean/South Asian people are most likely to seem attractive. I am not often attracted to pasty, blonde people - go figure!

[noiretextatique]

65. the speaker was black

so i seriously doubt she had the "noble savage" thing in mind.

[StellaBlue]

75. I know; I saw it

But it just always strikes me as a totally bizarre thing to say, outside a 'reclaiming' type of atmospher (e.g. 60s/70s 'black is beautiful'). If she meant that she was struck by their humanity and dignity under terrible circumstances, why didn't she just say, 'those beautiful people'?

When I saw them, I saw them as people.

[noiretextatique]

88. cause she's not you

:shrug: i seriously doubt she meant her comment to disturb anymore. as someone else mentioned, i think she just reponded to what she saw, from her perspective.

[G_j]

14. I think the simplest explanation is simply that

that is what she saw, that was her honest and immediate perception: "those beautiful black bodies lying there...."

[StellaBlue]

91. yeah, I am sure that's the case

Just always causes me to double-take. In this context. In the context of the 'black is beautiful' movement, I think it's a great thing to say. Black people are just as beautiful as white people. The more of us who realize that, the better.

[G_j]

15. dupe

[Catherine Vincent]

20. I think the reason why black man say that from time to time is to

remind themselves that they are because they've been beat down by the white man since the slavery days as it was ingrained in them since birth from generation to generation.

[nonconformist]

22. Probably the same reasons that

I have been told by family members I am a "strong Italian woman" when going through hard times. It's about being proud of who you are, every aspect of it.

I don't guess this addresses the bodies quote, but it does address the Jerry Maguire one.

[SeattleGirl]

27. I think it like "ethnic" vs. "ethnicity"

My ethnicity is white, but I'm not Italian, Greek, Native American, Black, Jewish, etc, though I do have a bit of at least some of these in my family history. So, I am not part of an ethnic group, per say, so maybe that's one reason among some others that it's okay to say "strong black man" or "strong Italian woman", and it comes across at a strong statement, connecting one to ones ethnic group. But because of how nasty the white people have been to ethnic groups, minorities, anybody "not them", "strong white man" and "strong white woman" just fall flat.

[bluedawg12]

45. Since the majority of victims were black I see no problem

it is basically saying what was and what we saw.


I used the same words when I saw that a beautiful young black woman lay in the arms of strangers in a Newsweek picture, and then read on to learn that died shortly after the photo was taken.

I am caucasian, but I didn't see "blacks" - I just saw human beings, like me, I saw families and kids and elderly and young mothers when I watched the Superdome horror for four days...I just saw people that I cried for, for whom my heart broke, and ultimately became enraged on behalf of.

But, I also knew that had the people in the Superdome been white, on TV, that helo's would have come to rescue them with in hours.
I also know that had they been white when the shooting started inside the dome--they would have been called "hostages," and if white and getting food and water-they would have been called foragers not looters.

I am caucasian, I saw people suffer but I knew that racism played it's evil hand in it.

[SeattleGirl]

46. I have no doubt that racism played a huge part in what happened

And it sickens me to no end. It is obscene that a particular group of people can be considered expendible, can be looked upon as not worthy of being saved.

:cry:

[Karenina]

49. The people of the Gulf region

are ALL victims of racist American *policy as are the people of Iraq.

[bluedawg12]

85. Expendiblity of a people-not consistent with compassion

We may agree that racism played a part. But to those who don't, all I can say is: pictures speak 25,000 words.

The images we saw for days, and I believe that the American people stood together in solidarity on this, that those images spoke for themselves and the majority of reasonable people were broken hearted and appalled for those good Americans.

[formernaderite]

51. I'll answer but I'm not black...

Do you remember the "black is beautiful" campaign in the late 60's early 70's? If not, then that's why you would wonder about these statements. After our own apartheid was beginning to break down, a concerted effort to combat the images of beauty always shown in the media was made. So yes, black is beautiful or beautiful black bodies may seem odd if not taken in this context.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. If it were white bodies laying there, they would not have been treated

like rubbish so the statement would not be necessary

[noiretextatique]

67. ain't it the truth? eom

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

68. Sally Struthers must have desensitized our nation

:evilgrin:

On the more serious side, yes. It's. True. and a fucking shame and embarrassment for those of us Americans that such reckless disregard does not represent.

[noiretextatique]

89. yes, nsma

it is a disgrace...all of it. the response, the reaction, and the spin. i wish i could say i am surprised, but i am not. now...truly nothing shocks me anymore.

[shaniqua6392]

69. I will try to answer, although I am not African-American.

Recently, because our youngest daughter has been learning about diversity at her school, she has begun to ask many questions. We have had many discussions about it. My husband and I were both raised in very racist households. But, we both have not let it carry on into our adult lives. One thing my daughter pointed out to my husband, though, was sometimes when he talks about someone at work, or someone he ran into, per se he describes them as "this black guy at work" or "I was talking to this black guy", etc. She did point out that this is racist behavior and we both agreed with her. It is not intentional racism, but it still is a form of it to us. So, now when he will say, "this black guy at work" .....we say " this what guy at work?" and he will apologize for it. We are trying to show our daughter that people can make changes in their behavior to stop the cycle of racism. It is just too important. Hope this helps and sorry it is so long winded!!! Blessings.

[Karenina]

86. Sounds like a plan!

Your daughter will keep you on your toes! Something I would like you to think about and try is removing any defensive response you may have to being called a racist should that ever occur. "I was born white in America. Racism permeates the culture. But I'm working on it."

Then ask a question.

All good things to you!