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T Roosevelt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:43 PM
Original message
Thoughts on Katrina from a professional engineer
I've been seeing a lot lately in the news and in the blogs about the "blame game" and who was responsible. Having worked in the engineering private sector interfacing with emergency management, and having spent the past few years working on my PhD in engineering studying hurricane evacuation, I can say that there is plenty of blame to go around. As in civil lawsuits, the question is how much is apportioned to whom.

Every jurisdiction at risk of a hurricane develops emergency procedures to deal with the possible consequences based on the predicted storm severity and expected impacts (eg storm surge). Resource allocation, placement of equipment and other supplies, and responsiblity of each involved agency is laid out in these plans. These plans are typically layered to account for increasing threat. Cat 1 storms don't require nearly the preparation or relocation as Cat 5 storms - obviously. And no city wants to evacuate if avoidable; this is costly both economically and in terms of risk to citizen and personnel.

Once the threat becomes established (based on NHC weather forecasts), these procedures are implemented, and as the threat increases, the additional pre-determined measures (layers) are taken. Emergency procedures don't kick in until certain criteria are met, simply out of practicality. Jurisdictions can't just willy-nilly declare emergencies and begin evacuations at any time, since nature can't be accurately predicted beyond short-term times (Hurricane Charley is a good example). Based on available timelines for Hurricane Katrina (ignoring the GOP-produced bullshit timeline), Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin appear to have done what they were supposed to do, when they were supposed to do it.

Once an emergency is declared, various administrative and jurisdictional procedures kick in. Blanco clearly did this on the Friday prior to landfall, and once the feds acknowledged her request (Saturday morning), they became obligated to aid in any number of specific ways. Mayor Nagin also took the steps assigned to him to move as many people to shelters as possible. The fact that the evacuation reached an unprecedented 80% is an indication of his efforts and his success (when 60% was expected).

Destination is a sticking point in many discussions - why the Superdome? Why the Convention Center? Where was the food and water. When evacuation procedures are developed, emergency evacuation shelters are identified. However, provisions are not normally made for providing food and water - this is the responsiblity of the evacuees (and Nagin pointedly recommended 2-3 days of food and water). Clearly the Superdome and Convention Center, along with a number of public schools or other sturdy public facilities, were identified as shelters, and performed admirably for the duration expected - around 2-3 days.

In addition, jurisdictions work with the resources available to them. This includes money and personnel. If the money is not available, things just don't get done, regardless of their necessity or potential for death or destruction. This is the free market at work. And evacuations are expensive. For example, much has been made of the school buses not used to evacuate. It wouldn't have mattered if Nagin had a million buses available to him - if he doesn't have the drivers, the buses are useless. Perhaps if the National Guard had been dispatched in a timely matter (and this is a sticking point between the Feds and the State), the buses could have been utilized. Given that Lousiana was short-handed on experienced NG troops due to their presence in Iraq, the federal government bears much responsibility.

An important point, however, is destination. Where would have the buses taken the evacuees? Most likely the Superdome, since any trip beyond New Orleans would have been effectively one way (remember, the freeways were contra-flow, meaning all lanes were outbound - therefore no return traffic). Beyond this, there would have had to have been agreements made or destinations established for these evacuees. Within Louisiana this likely would not have been a problem, though no unaffected jurisdiction would have been happy with so many evacuees descending upon their city. Anything beyond the state limits would probably have required agreements between Louisiana and the receiving state, along with the funds necessary to support the temporary relocation (be it shelters, hotels, whatever). Once again, money and free market raise their ugly heads.

The problems encountered during Katrina underline the importance of a strong federal government, and a competent agency missioned to handle such situations. State and local governments simply lack the resources (both money and personnel) necessary to handle natural disasters of this magnitude. FEMA was retooled after Hurricane Andrew to be the focal point of response.

Without an investigation, absolute allocation of blame can probably never be made. However, with a minimal amount of information some educated guesses can be made. And in the case of Hurricane Katrina, FEMA clearly dropped the ball, leaving the city of New Orleans and the state of Lousisiana to essentially fend for themselves.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is great, did you
send it around through the action alert links yet?

------------------------------------------------------
URGENT yet easy! Hold the government accountable for Katrina's aftermath
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4736062
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T Roosevelt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Action alert links?
Sorry, I've been out of touch lately...
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Just click on the DU link in my sig and you'll go right to them :^)
------------------------------------------------------
URGENT yet easy! Hold the government accountable for Katrina's aftermath
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4736062
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T Roosevelt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Ahhh...
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jrthin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:57 PM
Original message
Excellent analysis. I
agree with the above poster, sent this article on, maybe to the newpapers.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. Very poignant, are you involved in the recovery?
If not, then you should "insert yourself", pronto...
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T Roosevelt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I'm not involved, but I know some who probably are
most are at LSU, and they are good people...
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'm not a professional emergency planner
I just play one on the internet and I have been saying basically the same thing for days. Glad to see I'm not totally crazy.

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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
6. The bottom line is that engineers
are ususally the best people to head disaster agencies. Great article.
The duct tape fireman won't be any better that Brownie.
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
41. solving problems is what engineers do!

(a salute to my cousins, who look a) a nuclear reactor, and b) Toronto's public transit system, respectively)
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Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. Wonderful, well-reasoned explanation
Thank you for this. I will be passing it along to others.
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KerryOn Donating Member (899 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thank You T. Roosevelt...
That was an excellent summarization.

I'm taking it to work tomorrow, to give to a coworker that has more than a few twisted views on he subject. I think your article may turn some light bulbs on. If it doesn't, than I know she is a lost cause.

Thanks!
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T Roosevelt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Include this, because it will come up
This was from a 2002 study conducted by LSU:

"The highways are exposed to the effects of hurricane winds and floods, and must be shut down to traffic many hours before a hurricane actually reaches the vicinity of the city. It is estimated that about two hundred thousand people living in the city do not have automobiles or access to an automobile. Approximately 20,000 people have special needs and cannot be easily moved. Finally, there are several thousand more people that will choose not to evacuate because of difficulty of actually evacuating and of finding suitable shelters (Suhayda, Aravamuthan, & Korevec, 2001)."


Michael Brown: also a horse's ass
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. Cuts through the Spin Crap. IRecommended!. Where would these people
have been bused to if all the busses had been able to have drivers? NoWhere except the Convention Center and Super Dome.

This cuts throught the crap out there.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thanks for sharing this information and analysis.
I can't believe the Feds fired Brown but still refuse to take any responsibilty for anything. Whatever happened to the buck stops here?
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
14. Say, are you looking for work? We need a new head of FEMA...also
homeland security...well, actually president too. You are far more qualified than any who hold the positions now.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. Unfortunately, most public talk by the Administration is to blame others
Edited on Mon Sep-12-05 09:29 PM by Nothing Without Hope
for their dereliction of competence and responsibility.

It's a major irony how "playing the BLAME GAME" is stated as a condemnation of everyone else by these people, but THEY are the ones who are doing it. They show no interest that I can see with improvement of response to future disasters or truly helping those people still suffering from this one. No, it's all political games, trying to smear the state and local authorities.

I am so screamingly sick of that photo of the school busses! A couple of days ago Blitzer was STILL showing it during the Howard Dean interview as "proof" that Mayor Nagin was to blame for not getting people out of New Orleans. Unfortunately, Howard was not prepared for that question (odd, that) and most of the audience probably thought Blitzer carried the point.

We need some can-do engineers in there, instead of the posturing White House politicos and spin doctors.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
38. "Unfortunately, most public talk
by the Administration is to blame others...."

Truth to tell, they're very positive. They're busy finding out what went right...
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
39. "Unfortunately, most public talk
by the Administration is to blame others...."

Truth to tell, they're very positive. They're busy finding out what went right...

Judging from George's evasions, I think he'd prefer a public enquiry into what went right, rather than asking "what didn't go right?" again. Asking that question once to one of myrmidons was quite enough thank you.

He's like the young lad my brother-in-law was coaching. When told they'd be studying one of his plays, he replied, "I read Shakespeare once. Didn't like 'im"! Oddly enough, he became a Guards officer.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
16. The Superdome had food and water
That is a falsehood that needs to get corrected in a hurry. 7 trailer loads of food and water that should have supplied 15,000 people for 3-4 days. The Superdome was the shelter of last resort and was properly stocked.

The convention center came up after the flooding, I don't know that any official has ever been identified as actually giving an order for people to go there. Even so, by that time I'm sure the city officials thought that help would be arriving rather quickly since a disaster had been declared days before.

Other than not knowing exactly what took place between Blanco and Bush, it just seems Bush dropped the ball because so many orders were not given, Northern Command, FEMA, etc. Because Bush was on vacation.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Seems to me the problem was...
racism and the assumption/excuse and they could not help the people without there being riots.

"When I asked why the truck was about to leave when it could accommodate twice as many people, a soldier replied they had not yet devised a way to evacuate people from the crowd in an orderly fashion without starting a riot."

http://www.idsnews.com/subsite/story.php?id=30939
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I agree
I said several times that if our troops can face fire to "free the Iraqi's", they can certainly face fire to save our own people. Putting plasma TV's over people's lives, assuming the riots because the people were black, it goes right to the truth of the racism. It's the kind of racism this country still can't see.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. At the Superdome - they were handing out food and water at first...
http://www.idsnews.com/subsite/story.php?id=30865
http://www.idsnews.com/subsite/story.php?id=30911
http://www.idsnews.com/subsite/story.php?id=30939

(3 parts)

Good first person account. You can see that the plan started out Ok and then went to hell when there was not a plan for the people to be there past a couple of days.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
19. FEMA is not the appointed head of this country. bush is.
The responsibility (blame) is his, all his. I don't believe he has even apologized for the SNAFU and FUBAR of New Orleans. All he has done is drag out his tired dog-and-pony show.

If this were Japan, the "leader" would have committed hari-kari to atone for his sins of omission. Not bush. He sits back and says, "What didn't go right?"

BTW, excellent summary from an engineering standpoint. But I contend that bush wants all the glory, none of the accountability, and the accountability should by all rights eventually be on his side of the slate.

I'm signing off. G'night.
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
21. Can I take this to work?
Because there is a RW engineer who insists that FEMA did its job and that the local and state governments were clueless. And of course, Bush did his job well....
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
22. fema did worse than let louisiana fend for itself
they didn't tell anyone "hey, we can't/won't do anything for you, you're on your own". that would have been unhelpful, but at least people would have known better to look for help elsewhere.

no, they let people THINK that fema would help. and then they didn't. that added much to the problems.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Which is much worse, yet they have the toppers of turning away help and...
trying cut communication between those who wanted to bring assistance and those in need. This after it became apparent that FEMA was not going to offer any help what so ever in a timely matter.

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LeahD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
23. Posts like this are one of the reasons I like DU! Thank you.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
24. FEMA also took the ball away!
Blocking the Red Cross and many many volunteers from entering the disaster area for Days! How do you explain that one? How many people died because of the blocking of assistance?

Thank you for your insight. These people are despicable.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
25. People like you ought to make up the investigative commission.
Bi-partisan (and we know even the "bi-partisan" will be a major farce anyway) is politics as usual; let's let smart people with the knowledge make up the investigative committee.

I'd love to see people like you talk to the first responders, victims, relief agency workers, even the Wal-Mart drivers who were blocked from entering the city.

It hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell, but it would help to restore my faith in government letting someone knowledgeable decide what works and then implementing it.

Great post--this ought to be published somewhere. Thanks.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
27. Please, please, please! Hollywood or Michael Moore, get this
out into a made for t.v. movie before Rove spins the disaster response as a sign of Federal bureaucratic failure and convinces everyone that only privatized efforts and military response worked well. That's their new talking points. Those idiots killed FEMA AND took away the National Guard from Louisiana, but do you think they'll take responsibility for that? Nope.
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hederahelix Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
28. Thank you for this
One of the things that drives me crazy is that too often the reports we get from the media don't allow for the expertise of people from various professions. (I work in education, and if I had a dime for every time someone who's never set foot in a classroom presumes to tell me what I should be doing there, well, I wouldn't be worried about what the Governator wanted to do with my pension.)

This was a very clear summary of the process which I, as someone who doesn't work in any way with disaster preparedness, found very clear and informative. More accounts like this from people who work on a regular basis on those problems will go a long way to keeping the spin doctors from managing to put the bulk of the blame on local officials like Blanco and Nagin. Sure, they made some mistakes, but to me the greatest mistake was that the top officials in the administration seemed not to know what was going on on the ground and when they did know not to believe it or care when the news was clearly reporting on it.

Again, thanks for this.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Hi hiderahelix!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Brotherjohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
29. Thank you. Those of us living in Hurricane Alley know...
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 10:29 AM by Brotherjohn
... that the evacuation was ordered as soon as was practicable, and as late as was practicable. And it was carried out as efficiently and completely as such an evacuation could have been.

Friday AM, Katrina was projected to be a weak Category 1 (80mph/70kts) hitting around Panama City, FL, hundreds of miles to the east of N.O. Those who say she and Nagin should have ordered the evacuation then are, simply put, ignorant fools.

By the end of that day, the projected path had shifted to N.O., and the anticipated strength at landfall had changed to 125mph (115kts). Friday was when Gov. Blanco ordered the State of Emergency and requested federal aid.


By Saturday AM, NOAA was anticipating a strong Category 3 storm hitting N.O., and Nagin and Blanco were usging everyone to evacuate. Sunday morning, with the projection holding and the storm strengthening to unimaginable levels, the mandatory evacuation was ordered.

See NOAA for an archive of the projected paths (and also the "Discussion" for the projected strengths). http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/2005/KATRINA_graphics.shtml

We who live on the coast know that there are close calls all the time. 99 times out of 100, a storm that was a Cat 3-4 out at sea and making a "beeline" for you will either weaken and/or veer off to stike somewhere else. If you evacuated a city every time, the some cities would be empty from June to November.

You're really walking a fine line deciding to evacuate, and the problems posed by an evacuation are all the greater in a large city like N.O. Nagin and Blanco pushed a full voluntary evacuation at the right time, and ordered the mandatory evacuation at the right time.

People who debate this know absolutely nothing about living in a hurricane zone, and are simply not thinking clearly about what it takes to evacuate a major city and all that it entails.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
31. Blame lands firmly on our leader's table
The National guard should have been dispatched much earlier. He is right in that states lack the resources necessary to deal with disasters!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Brotherjohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. She would have had a lot more NG (LA) at her immediate disposal...
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 10:50 AM by Brotherjohn
... were it not for them being in Iraq.

And if you're being honest, I'd suspect if a Democratic president tried to grab control of YOUR state's NG, especially in a time of war, you'd be screaming from the high hills about your state's sovereignity.

The federal government does not control the National Guard of any state... PERIOD! That the White House even tried this is horrendous.

And yes, the levees were "designed" for a Cat 3. Actually, they were designed in the 60s after Hurricane Betsy, when we knew a lot less. They have been upgraded at times since, and the Cat 3 number comes from "back-calculating" what they were likely to withstand. The State and Local governments have been asking for federal help in shoring up those levees for decades, and are always awarded a pittance compared to what is really needed.

If you don't think this is a federal responsibility, and that Louisiana should just "fend for itself" or "fix it's own damned levees", then I guess you don't drive a car and don't think the United States needs petroleum products. And I guess you also don't think the Army Corps of Engineers should exist (interesting, that, with you being from a flood-prone area and all).

As for your claim that "the National guard was in N.O. in force TWO DAYS FASTER than ANY hurrican (sic) ever on record", do you have a source (that's not some right wing rag)? I myself was in Pensacola when Ivan hit last year, and the National Guard was there the day after. So I don't know WTF you could be talking about.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. FEMA is supposed to be the lead agent?
To provide oversight and coordination of this effort, Presidential Decision Directive (PDD) 67 established the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) as the lead agent for Federal Executive Branch COOP. This authority was transferred to the Department of Homeland Security on March 1, 2003, and then delegated to the Emergency Preparedness and Response Directorate, FEMA. FEMA's Office of National Security Coordination provides Lead Federal Agency Leadership for the Federal Executive Branch COOP program.

http://www.fema.gov/usr/usrp.shtm
http://www.fema.gov/onsc/
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
33. A couple of things
A friend whose son lives in NOLA tells me the city itself doesn't use school buses. Kids either walk or take public transit. That's how it's done in Oaktown. The only school buses you see are teeny ones private schools use. My friend says those buses belong to various suburbs.

You're the first one who's asked the simple question I've been asking for a few days. If you took all those people "out," where would you take them? No other city was prepared to take any evacuees. Would you drive them to Houston and leave them on the busses in the heat until you could work out arrangements to take 10s of thousands of people?

BTW, a freeper sent a link to a newsmax column that said they didn't use the busses because they were too "uppity" to sit on a school bus. It's amazing to me how blatantly this has exposed the racism in this country. It sure isn't hidden too far below the surface, is it?
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
36. Please send this as a letter to the editor;It's sober and well thought out
nt
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Stalwart Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
37. Analysis of an Engineer's Analysis
Excellent. Typical of an engineer to put things together so they will work or find out why they don't and fix them. It is structured thinking applied to a problem using conceptual and physical "things" to accomplish the "actions" to produce results. The same way the Constitution or our space program were made.

The author's engineering thoughts are well structured nouns and verbs. His second paragraph is a systems analyst dream. He lays out all the nouns and the key verbs that implement the nouns' relationships to achieve the goal of emergency procedures. Then he goes on to do more of the same in a supporting structure. Get the things (nouns) and their relationships right and the actions (verbs) fall into place. This guy is good!

Some readers of like mind know exactly what he is doing as he lays out his engineering in narrative form and how it translates through stages to something (a system) that gets a job done. Others, I am sure, recognize it as great stuff with less understanding of why.

Scientists conceptualize things. Engineers design and build them so that they can be operated by ordinary people (or even idiots). Persistent, catastrophic failures where the rubber meets the road due to glaringly obvious errors in concept and/or design as well as any subverting noise is unacceptable.

The safety and security of its citizens is a core government objective. Systems that protect all of us from natural disaster should do exactly that. Conceived to protect. Engineered for success. Successful in implementation. An effective, tested disaster plan might well be a model in both concept and design for many other areas of government objectives and priorities.

It is time for geniuses with honest conceptions of reality and engineers that turn them into systems that work to take over from the people like bush and brownie.



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Sacajawea Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Stalwart...Welcome to the Underground!
It sounds like you are an engineer or analyst yourself; another voice of reason is always welcome. This is a great community and I hope you stay a long while. :hi:
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Stalwart Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Voices of Reason Need to be Invested in a System of Reason
It looks like this discussion is nearing the end. This might be the last entry. I am new to contributing but have been reading DU for years.

Discussions in DU have a short half life. Like this one. Sometimes I just write things to organize my thinking. This is one of those times since the discussion is well beyond its half life. Good things are said on DU among gratifying pot shots . I value both and the humor too. They all go into the big stew of what I think. That seems to be the framework they ultimately hang on: Personal knowledge and opinion and its plural of general consensus. To me that is only an intermediate point with the payoff when it results in an improvement to the system by poking, prodding or replacement.

DU does discussion well. It is forever moving and investing its movement in grey matter thought structure. Some people have no need to go beyond that because they can shoot from the lip and do it effectively. They draw on their data store to formulate quick and effective statements or replies to carry on the battle. That is a talent and an art. It changes the system.

Some analysts can shoot from the lip with rich information content and structure. They probably do not call themselves analysts. They are especially intelligent and in all walks of life. The best are leaders or otherwise successful. Other analysts have to write it all down and organize it. Where the environment allows that in terms of time they are also successful.

When I was a kid engineers ran trains. Analysts talked to you on a couch. In the information age everyone is an engineer and an analyst. We do it in different ways but when we come together there is a synergy that produces an excellent result. We just have to recognize how we do it in our own way. Mine is to build or improve a system. I listen to the analysts that are quick on their feet. Take time to think about what they say. Take some action in my own way.

For example: Scott Ritter has it all in his head. What he says has rich content. It can be parsed to build a knowledge structure. He might not be able to design a great system but he sure can talk effectively about the existing one as he did today: http://www.alternet.org/story/25221/

At his conclusion Scott urges us to invest our good thinking in the vote to improve the structure through better elected officials. That is a great traditional idea we all salute and many have given their lives for that. I only had to give an oath to defend it. Good thinking Scott but today we have better direct access to the system run by our government officials as well as through our elected politicians.

Do the traditional but do more. The structure and function of government is evolving on the internet as technology moves government to a better organized system where its fallacies of operation are more easily revealed and effectively dealt with. The system is progressively reducing the places to hide until there is only secrecy and spin remaining as the last resort of scoundrels.

The FEMA website is user interface oriented. Nevertheless, it conveys much information about the structure and function of FEMA. It relates to documents that dictate its activities as well as documents by which it directs activities. That is open government.

I want to see the entire structure and operation of FEMA defined in an internal and external relational system with its website as a point of entry. It is a bureaucracy and has already defined all of this somewhere so it can run itself. It is as big task to integrate all this but that is what big business likes. Look at HP: http://government.hp.com/content_detail.asp?agencyid=1&contentid=349
They define and design systems that educate managers about what they are doing or should be doing and give them the tool to do it. Not just computer programs but management structures. I can look at FEMA today on the internet from mission all the way to contracts and tasking orders. It only takes a little more to put it all on the table. Likewise for most government activities.

If I were president I would have a 4 year plan to put it all on the table for everyone to see. I would do away with passwords that unnecessarily restrict seeing what is already there. The big marshmallow is not so big anymore and getting more controllable as technology progresses. Is it conceivable that "System" will not just come to overlay government but be a branch in itself? Hasn't the internet evolved from a means of communication to a new entity? Just extrapolate the idea and I can see some writing on the wall.

I am not the president but if I ever found a group that got together on the internet and volunteered to create for FEMA what I am talking about I would join it. FEMA: do you want citizen volunteers of a different type?

The FEMA website therefore becomes not merely a point of customer contact but a window on structure and function for all to see. Among those that look are all the organizations and people that interface with FEMA in certain situations. The rest of the lookers are concerned citizens. Drilling down through those organizations we should be able to see their sub structures and functions as well.

Public citizen analysts like me that are better at shooting from the position of of a well organized,integrated structure of information are then enabled to take well aimed and effective shots at faults and failings. Shooting from the lip I could not hit a thing. You have to be quick as well as accurate in that fight. I am only accurate and have to think about the draw and a system to aim. Not much good in a verbal contest with a freeper.

Good systems have feed back loops and accountability built into them.
I worked in Adm. Rickover's system where accountability was a shadow over everything that was done. His system, extending all the way to logistic support, worked. It was extraordinary then but so much easier now that structures of command and control have moved to a great extent from residing in the heads of the operators to the intelligence of the system.

A well designed system is dangerous. That danger is that if it passes tests of reason, logic, etc. the errors of existing structures that it identifies or failures by people to operate it cannot be avoided. Sometimes that makes things uncomfortable. So does truth. So does accountability. The system can be or should be the first to point the finger.

Design it to serve us.












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Sacajawea Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Stalwart -- Thank you for your extensive reply.
I am neither an engineer nor an analyst, just a research lab. tech. (recombinant DNA, etc.), RN and, when economically necessary, a medical transcriptionist. Highest degree a B.A. (from a long, long time ago). Your answer is so thoughtful and well-written that I'm going to save it so that I can read it again (and again), and perhaps some of it will sink in. Your reference to Adm. Rickover has my mind whirling about the kinds of things you may have been involved in.

I've been here since January 20, 2001, another day that will live in infamy - at least insofar as I'm concerned. I don't post much as I am neither quick nor particularly knowledgeable, but I enjoy reading the posts of those who are. Again, welcome to DU.
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agincourt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-05 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
44. Thank you for your post,
After listening to so many RW fairy tales at work it's nice to see a sensible explanation. It is no accident that the GOP House or Senate will block any serious investigation of the catastrophe.
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