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From a dear friend: I'm speechless and astounded!

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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:07 PM
Original message
From a dear friend: I'm speechless and astounded!
:cry: And she's a supposed good Christian woman, mom of 6, grandmom, and great grandmom. I can't fathom what happened to her and we've known each other for over 20 years. How does one even respond to this?

Time For Honesty

What's really behind the chaos in New Orleans?

Back in the 70's, my wife, baby daughter, and I lived in Goodna, Queensland, a suburb of Brisbane. We were young and inexperienced and like most couples our age lived pretty much hand to mouth. It was a struggle to make ends meet. Any savings we had went as a down payment on the home we were buying. Once a week my wife went shopping and bought the food and supplies we would need the following week.

Like the Southeastern United States, the area we lived in was subtropical and prone to cyclones (same as hurricanes). One day a cyclone approached our area. It wasn't a big one as cyclones go, so we weren't too concerned. We figured 6-12 hours of high winds and all would be back to normal. Except things didn't go exactly according to plans. The cyclone moved in over top of us and hit up against another pressure front and stopped dead. And there it sat for two days. Not too much wind but oh did it rain. An inch an hour for 48 hours. That's right - we got nearly four feet of rain.

Now Brisbane is built on the Brisbane River, not an impressive river as rivers go - only a few feet deep and a hundred feet wide in the western suburbs where we lived. At least during normal times. Four feet of water over several hundred square miles is one hell of a lot of water. Trust me on that one - I've seen it. And all of that water all had to get to the sea via the Brisbane River. During the night, our little Brisbane River rose and rose. The police were magnificent. They woke people up and evacuated thousands of homes during that long night. Only two people drowned in our area - residents of a mobile home park whose trailer was swept away. The police commandeered trucks and backed them up to the local grocery store and loaded all the food and necessities, drove them to high ground and parked them.

By mid morning the river was 60 feet deep and three miles wide. We lived on a hill so we weren't submerged. When you walked over the crest of the hill and looked down into the valley where there was once a highway, railroad line, and thousands of homes you were stunned into silence. All you could see was water everywhere. No electric poles, no roof tops, nothing. Everything was under water.

We took stock of our situation - it wasn't good. The flood came on our weekly shopping day so the house contained very little food. We had some candles and a flashlight. Nothing else. There was no electricity or water. Fortunately it was warm weather.

We were in stunned disbelief. So were our neighbors. However, we decided we had better quickly organize ourselves. We knew we were going to be isolated and without water or power for some time. We started collecting all the rain water we could. Without it we were screwed. We dismantled and reassembled a non-mortared barbecue under our carport. We started collecting all the firewood we could find. We assessed the food situation. Some people had full freezers. We separated what we could eat over the next several days and dug pits and buried the rest. Everyone shared what they had without a single word of what came from whom.

Needless to say we survived - and in good shape. The R. A. A. F flew some food supplies in (especially fresh bread that the local prison was baking and fresh, unpasteurized milk from local farmers.) by helicopter. In fact I look back on those days with some fondness. Our carport became the hub of the neighborhood. At night we would just sit around the fire and talk.

The thousands of people who were displaced didn't go to refugee camps. They went into the homes of those not flooded - sometimes friends or relatives, often strangers. Nobody forced you to take in another family, everyone just did it.

Hundreds of millions of dollars was raised throughout Australia. The relief agencies didn't screw around with the money either. As soon as the water receded in a weeks time, they set up centers in every hamlet. Anyone who was submerged was given an initial $4,000 in CASH to tide them through. More came later. Was there some abuse? A few instances but not many and the there was follow-up to deal with that.. Was there any looting? Virtually none.

What does this have to do with New Orleans? Plenty.

Why didn't the people in the Superdome make any effort to organize themselves? Why didn't groups of men patrol the restrooms to prevent rapes?

We have gone a long way in the past 40 years to creating a dysfunctional society where self reliance, pride in one's self and a sense of right and wrong are no longer esteemed or even valued.

We have allowed our government and media to say to people that you are not at fault for what you do. You are victims, little children who can't look after yourselves.

We have told our minorities that everything that goes wrong is the result of racism. That you cannot succeed in a racist society.

We have told the dysfunctional that we will look after you no matter how egregiously you act.

We have excused crime saying that poverty creates crime, when we all instinctively know that it is the crime that creates poverty.

We have told that it okay to have babies without fathers. There is no stigma attached - in fact if you have a baby we will shower you with money and benefits so you can move out of your parent's house and have even more babies. Even if this guarantees your babies will be raised in poverty.

We have told young men that it is okay to father as many children as you can. The government will assume the father's traditional role and look after the mother and babies.

And most importantly, we have called morals old fashioned and judgmental. What right does society have to say that something is right or wrong?

And what have we gotten for this? (not to mention the $1 trillion we have spent on the poor) Citizens who, at the first sign of trouble, stand around bewildered. You see it on the news. Faces screaming, "Help me!", "Tell me what to do!"

God help us. We're reaping what we sowed.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. I've said it before
If Jesus Christ came back, and saw these people who advertise themselves as "Christians," he'd turn into Charlie Manson. On them.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Mark Twain said that if Christ were here today there's one thing he
he would not be: a Christian.

George B. Shaw, I think, also said something like there was only one true Christian in the world and he was crucified in Rome.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
42. Do you have the exact quotes? I collect anti-fundamentalism quotes.
Edited on Mon Sep-12-05 08:06 PM by Ladyhawk
But Christ was crucified in Jerusalem.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #42
84. Here are two by Twain:
If Christ were here there is one thing he would not be--a Christian.
- Mark Twain's Notebook

He also wrote something similar to what I thought Shaw said (obviously, my old grey matter ain't what it used to be...:evilgrin:)

There has been only one Christian. They caught him and crucified him--early.
- Notebook, 1898

These and other quotes can be found here:

http://www.twainquotes.com/Christianity.html
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. or they on him n/t
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Definitely
"YOU FILTHY HIPPIE PEACE FREAK!!!! WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA!!!!!"

<thud>
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. How dear?
Dear enough to re-educate? Or not so dear to keep around now that you see that they are inhuman?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. She's not inhuman; that's why I'm so
confused about this. She's dear, but we're not talking at the moment because I told her I went to Crawford and she thought I was nuts, that I don't support the troops, etc. Prior to this she had insinuated she voted for Kerry so that threw me for a loop. I can't help but wonder who is influencing her. But I wll eventually confront her somehow.:-(
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
77. Most of her story sounds like flat out bullshit
She says the water rose and the people were evacuated, but then goes on to say later that people brought what was in their full freezers shared etc--How the hell did they do that?

Did the emergency workers go in and dive to get their food and candles from the fridge? Did they all strap the stuff on their backs and swim to their quaint little hill?

Tell this woman that living in an urban area is a little different than living in Mayberry--JMO but her whole story sounds like flowery made up BS.

I won't even comment on her judgements at the end of her fairy tales...you should just tell her to put down the crack pipe.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
34. She's also very mislead
about this part,

"Why didn't the people in the Superdome make any effort to organize themselves? Why didn't groups of men patrol the restrooms to prevent rapes?"

Why because they did organize themselves and now that the truth is coming out so are stories from the people that were there. The young men did band together and protected the elderly, women and children. They went out into the surrounding areas to 'loot' for food and water and they would come back and distribute these supplies among the people who were waiting for them. These were probably some of the 'looters' that she saw on TV in her comfortable home in where ever.



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MODemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
47. How nasty of her, she should have heard Brian Williams
on Jon Stewart. Why do some people despise the poor and unfortunate? True Christians do not believe this way. Only the pretenders do this.
She certainly needs an attitude adjustment.

My friend in Iowas sent me a long-winded e-mail, which blames the mayor and governor of LA, and takes all the blame away from der Bush.
I sent it back to him, and told him not to waste his time that I'm not interested in covering for George W. Bush. I don't care whether likes it or not, because I sure didn't like receiving a piece of trash like he sent me. :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :freak: :freak: :freak: :freak:
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. I think there are a lot of people in this country
that need to be deprogrammed.

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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. OMG.....how hateful can they be?
It never ends. Their hatred never ends.:cry:

I would tell the lady that that is one of the most hateful things I have ever read and don't EVER send me shit like that again....and it was nice bein' yer friend, but it's OVER. With friends like her, who needs enemies? GEEEEEEEZ!
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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. Pity her. There's nothing more miserable than poverty of the soul.
Edited on Mon Sep-12-05 07:17 PM by FlemingsGhost
Lots of anger and denial, there.
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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. That is exactly what I would say to her.
There's nothing more miserable than poverty of the soul. And ma'am, this truly shows how miserable and poor your soul is to send out something so vile, so hateful, so un-Christian. It is one of the most higly offensive thing I have every read. If this is the kind of person you are becoming, please undersand this: I don't have room in my life so such viciousness. Understand this point very clearly, this kind of putrid belief system will not pollute my life. While I have always considered you a dear woman and fine Christian, this is wholly unacceptable.


This is just my two cents, but personally, Mr. kt and I have rid these kind of people from our lives because they're pure poision. Best of luck to you.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
41. When it's family, it's even harder.
Love the Christian, hate the dogma???? :shrug:
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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Normally, I'd totally agree, but I'm so PO'ed about the state of the USA,
even family has incurred my wrath.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4749845&mesg_id=4750373

But you're right. I should love the Christian and hate the dogma they use as a sword. I just wish I could be a better Christian. Right now, I'm just tired of all the shit from the fundy-fruitcakes.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. I'm no longer a Christian, but I wish I could be a better person.
I've had it from the fundy fruitcakes, as well. And yeah, I"m pissed at family...and I still love them. I don't know what to do with myself.
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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #54
85. I should get Mr. kt to PM you and tell you how he's handleing his parents.
They are quite a handful.

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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #85
92. Kerrytravelers, your post was most helpful.
I responded, shamelessly plagiarizing many thoughts in this thread, yours being some of them. It felt good to get my thoughts off my chest, though my opinions are what rile the woman to begin with. It's kind of a lose-lose proposition for me. I haven't rec'd an answer and wouldn't be surprised if I don't. That saddens me as we've been friends for years. Maybe we both should just drop all the important things in our respective lives and talk about the weather and hummingbirds instead. :(
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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. The weather and hummingbirds are interestng for about 3 minutes.
That's all we can talk about with Mr. kt's freeper-fundy-fruitcake idiot parents. Yep. We hate 'em!

I'm glad I was able to be of help to you. Best of luck and do let us know if she responds!

kt
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #85
96. That would be great. I can use all the help I can get. :) n/t
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #41
63. Except that this dogma is not Christian, it's like those spiders that
chemically camouflage themselves with an ant colony scent and then use the facade to devour their very core.

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itcfish Donating Member (805 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #41
73. I Love
God, I just Hate His Freaking Fan Club!
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. how anyone can compare this supposed Aussie scene
Edited on Mon Sep-12-05 07:17 PM by musette_sf
to what happened in NO, is beyond my rational mind.

I can promise you that if the good citizens of New Orleans had been able to stay in their homes, and have had food drops occur within a short time, a similar scene to this Aussie idyll would have ocurred. People would have taken the less fortunate into their own homes and taken care of them. People would have had something to share.

If you got 20K Aussies held by force in a sports facility with no privacy, no electricity, no water, no food, no access to needed prescription drugs, and no information for 6 days, all knowing that they will have lost everything they owned, I suspect they would not be quite so virtuous.



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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Not to mention...
... no beer. That would have put a real edge on the week.... ;)
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Blue Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
46. Yes.. but instead of taking the less fortunate into their homes...
Armed patrolmen fired shots in the air over their heads so the could not cross the bridge into their subdivision.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
61. Sheesh, some of the people in that "story" had full freezers! Jeebus,
that's a *whole* different story from how poor people live. By the 29th of the month many of them may have eaten their last can of beans a day or so before and would be hungry until payday. Or maybe they saved the last few cans of food for the children, while the adults went hungry.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #9
67. Bingo, thank you musette
There's no way you can compare these two situations. This man just wants to tell his nostalgic heroic story of neighbors helping neighbors in the comfortable sparsely-populated suburbs of Brisbane--and use it as a platform for his racist pontifications.

In hurricanes and floods that occur all around this country there are countless similar stories of neighbors helping each other. And emergency services that work, with rescue teams risking their lives to help people. Also the flood in Brisbane may have been bad, but it did not affect the area of three whole states! (over there, cyclones do not track far inland). There is a big difference in scale in the hurricane damage we see here in the US. But our federal organization that was supposed to operate in storms of this overwhelming magnitude has been gutted and drowned in bureaucracy--shouldn't that be taken into consideration here?

Previously we have NOT seen evacuees treated worse than animals in a cage like the folks in New Orleans were. What's sad is that what happened to these New Orleans residents reeks of racism and classism, and efforts to spin it like this example reek of racism. These kinds of righteous 'Christians" with their holier than thou attitudes make me puke.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. My goodness
who knew that all those wonderful moral values will help you survive dehydration, heat stroke, and lack of medication?

The ONLY thing she actually mentioned that might have been done was men organizing themselves into bathroom monitors. Well, that would have been very nice. The bathrooms might have been safer.

But the bathrooms were not the problem. Heat from thousands of hot and frightened bodies, sewage that had no place to go..

I can't go on. It isn't like the survivor show where you can find the resources and used them. These people were good and trapped like a bunch of bugs in a jar.



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RallyInDC Donating Member (191 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. wait a minute....
these people were expected to save themselves?!?!?

WTF?!??? does this woman even know about the patrolling militia, forcing everyone to stay in the convention center at gunpoint!???

or the racism and blocking of medical supplies getting in, food and water rations?!???

this was the fault of poor people?

wtf? I thought it was the fault of municipal governments, I.E. FEMA and bush failing to order the national guard to save those thousands....and bring the supplies they asked for. and then blaming it on the crime....

hope she can be saved from her poison!!!
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ecoflame Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
12. Well, for one thing....
Edited on Mon Sep-12-05 07:20 PM by ecoflame
it's glorified rememberance, I think......We lived on a hill so we weren't submerged. Then goes on to talk about their neighbors as well who apparently weren't submerged either.

I'm sick of this blaming those who were 1) in hospitals as patients & could not leave (with their caretakers); 2) those who did not have transportation of their own; 3) the very young dependent on adults; 4) the elderly who could not get around well just being old 70+; 5) the mentally ill who live hand-to-mouth as well....Christ, the list goes own; 6) in nursing homes or surgical rehab units who were bedridden for whatever reason.

This is one of those pseudostories from the Internet that's passed on & on to demonstrate some worthless point. In this case, we've created a dysfunctional society. Plus, there's a helluva of difference between a rural or semi-rural setting and a large metropolis. Whoever these people were had some to figure out what to do before leaving their HOMES. Many of those left in NO did not have warning. It was escape to the highest part of the house - quickly.
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
13. Respond point by point
She obviously didn't rely on her own resources when she was in Brisbane. And it's not possible to blame people for being poor and not having a disaster plan. If you can't afford it, you can't afford it.
We haven't created a dysfunctional society, we've created a dysfunctional government, thanks to Ronald Reagan and his various disciples, Grover Norquist, et al.
It's time to recreate a just society that educates its children, that cares for its elderly, that preserves the environment, and curbs the excesses of corporations.
It's time to kick out the MBA careerists who believe that the 'bottom line' and 'shareholder value' are the only values to aspire to.
If your friend doesn't understand that it's her "Christian duty" to help the poor then she fails as a Christian.
"We have excused crime saying that poverty creates crime, when we all instinctively know that it is the crime that creates poverty." - Where did she get this? From a born again Calvinist talking point? She's just wrong here.
Good luck with this.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. She sent this as an e-mail, not a firsthand account. nt
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thanks for all your great insights. I'm going to compile them
and hit her point for point in a reasonable way (well, I can try).
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titoresque Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. I'd tell her she's right
we've created a society for the past 40 years.........so when the biggest natural disaster to hit the U.S. happens why does she feel the need to write a piece of trash like this about people who have ALREADY been hit hard for the past 40 years? Tell her to read back on what she wrote.......to really think about it.....she answered her own question.

Her expectations of people in dire circumstances she cannot REALLY understand (if she did understand she wouldnt have spent so much time writing that crap) is too much......like she said it's been 40 years of systematic break down......if she REALLY cares ask her to get to work at changing the system..........maybe she could rewrite her letter like a real compassionate Christian?
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
16. All her "we have told" bullsh*t is just that. It's bullsh*t.
Let her sit on her high and mighty horse and judge everyone because she came out of a bad situation relatively unscathed. I would refer her to a DU'er member's sig line, "High horses have slippery saddles."

Oh, one more thing, Ms. Self-Righteous: Judge not, lest ye be judged.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
64. High horses have slippery saddles... I'm going to have to make that a
staple. So many racists, so many republicans..... but I repeat myself.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
17. Sounds like more fiction emails from the Bob Jones professor who's been
sending these stories out for a decade now.

He's also the guy who made up the stories about McCain during the SC primaries.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. Bad fiction at that. Not even close to believable.
You'd think they could come up with something more creative to spread their racist, hateful beliefs.

Lame.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #17
78. YES! BINGO! EOM
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
19. Pacifica is the only media outlet doing lots of first hand stories ...
and one of the aspects emerging from all those stories is that in fact, a lot of young men in NO, especially at the superdome and convention center did spontaneously organize themselves to carry out security. But without light or communications they were not 100% successful.

But without them, it would have been worse.

Moreover, the above poster is correct. This was 20,000 people without flush toilets. I'm not sure what your friend thinks the solution was supposed to be.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
22. delete
Edited on Mon Sep-12-05 07:28 PM by NNN0LHI
=
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
23. Isn't Rupert Murdoch Austrailian?
This sounds like some of his propaganda bullshit.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
100. Yes but I think he's amerkan now. n/t
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
24. Why would you consider someone like this
a "dear friend?" :shrug:
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. We never had problems until politics entered into
our relationship this past year, which I'll admit is my fault. I'm vocal and passionate, she usually keeps her lips zipped. Now this.
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. That is too bad. But sometimes it takes a
situation like this to know what people are really like or capable of thinking. I have had a few disappointing revelations too. Not a happy thing to find out about someone you think you knew. ;(
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
26. Apples blame oranges
This is shallow thinking in deep waters. The country mice are criticizing the city mice and not learning anything. Consider oneself fortunate when things work out because human nature can go a lot of different ways in different circumstances and the blame or back slapping is equally exaggerated.

But to make this a thesis about social engineering is bizarre since it could be argued from a completely opposite direction. This "more rugged individualist" than thou self-righteousness is no substitute for a civil government. Some people don't have governments barring them from help or the ability to simply walk out.We are not quite ready for enlightened anarchy and some other nations actually get their people out, including livestock in a more powerful fashion.

Intensely stupid. This a sign of the self affirmed denial of reality that is so touted as superior and popular- and is neither.

But then, aren't you tempted to get defensive about the role of government and taking care of people as a society? Aren't you moved even slightly to forget the foolishness and respond to the drop of poison on the barb? Maybe even to grant a point or to or agree while the victims are left washing about in the swill?

Guns and drugs are suipplied to ghettoes to get them fighting each other. It is easier to bash your neighbor than the king.

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MojoXN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
27. Paraphrase:
And if ye be smited on the cheek by thine enemy, do not strike him, but turn the other cheek to thine enemy, so that it may be smited as well.

Modern-day "Christian" application of this principle: If the poor do not instantly raise themselves up the moment that the wealthy offer even token assistance, blame them for their plight. Rip on their morals as a way to feel justified in not helping them.

Fuck your friend. She is no Christian, nor a good person. If there's a Hell, she'll be going for an extended visit.

MojoXN
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
28. Time for honesty?
:wtf:

The headline is spin central.

The idea behind the message is clear while never uttered: Don't Blame Bush; Blame the Victims. Blame the Poor. Blame the Liberals. Blame anyone and everyone but Bush.

Cut this woman loose...she's beyond saving.

If she wrote it, she's toxic; if by chance she didn't write it and she's just forwarding crap, then she's criminally ignorant and incapable of research or learning the truth.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
31. "Some people had full freezers"
Obviously not poor.

"We started collecting firewood"

Not looting?

The people in New Orleans did everything that these folks did, it's just that it didn't get reported quite the same way.

Wonder why.

"The R. A. A. F flew some food supplies in (especially fresh bread that the local prison was baking and fresh, unpasteurized milk from local farmers.) by helicopter."

She got HELP, from the government, you don't say!

"The thousands of people who were displaced didn't go to refugee camps. They went into the homes of those not flooded - sometimes friends or relatives, often strangers. Nobody forced you to take in another family, everyone just did it."

Everyone is doing it here too.

"Anyone who was submerged was given an initial $4,000 in CASH to tide them through."

My my, it "worked out quite well", didn't it? Lucky duckies.

This particular email is the most arrogant piece of junk I have seen in some time. It needs to be responded to.



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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. Trust me, I will respond. Thanks.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. Sounds like a veritable Martha Stuart paradise...local prisoners happily
Edited on Mon Sep-12-05 08:04 PM by Garbo 2004
baking bread. And local farmers and their herds also unaffected...and thousands of perfectly viable nearby homes presumably with all the amenities not affected by the storm who could take in thousands of folks.

While in LA when some folks tried to walk across a bridge to get out of NO they were cursed and turned back at gunpoint. Don't seem right neighborly to me. Or the woman in the town where a mass mortuary was set up and said she was happy to have the NOLA folks there as long as they were dead and not alive.

Babylonsister: Ask your friend, WWJD?

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tenshi816 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #31
74. Obviously not poor, and not too wet either
if they were "collecting firewood". Good catch - I got so steamed reading it, that one went right by me!
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #31
79. And note those that died "lived in a trailer"
I liked that added touch to this vile story--all the *good* people lived, even though a couple of those nasty people in a trailer floated away.

The author is basically saying Tsk Tsk if they had spent their money wisely and hadn't been poor living in a trailer they would have lived.

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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
32. At least I know...
I'm not alone in hearing people express such wrong things. So callous.... Such injustice....

I swear, I don't know why I even try sometimes.
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
33. many of the "looters" were people who had auto-deputized themselves
and established a parallel semi-police force
why the *#@$!# is it bad for people to be stranded in the middle of a lake that wasn't there yesterday to yell for help?
the people in Biloxi--who're white--were no better off, and that's without the flooding
hundreds DID get up off their "welfare butts" or whatever the author thought and tried to leave, but were threatened by neighboring towns' P.D.s who didn't want "people like that" in their nice villas
the rest is just refined s---
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
35. You tell her that was the most hateful, racist piece of trash that you
could have ever had heard from her and that you don't ever want to talk with her on this subject again.

:hug:

------------------------------------------------------
URGENT yet easy! Hold the government accountable for Katrina's aftermath
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4736062
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
36. Found a little bit on that flood
Edited on Mon Sep-12-05 07:54 PM by karlrschneider
http://abcasiapacific.com/englishbites/stories/s1091238.htm

edit: add some text

KATHY McLEISH: Australians were shocked by the enormity of the disaster. Recovery took years. Many people were angry. They thought state and local government should have done more to prevent such a disaster. Despite mitigation work, experts agree another major flood could still happen.
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craigolemiss Donating Member (223 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
37. The story however may be true
25-29/1/1974 Brisbane: The Brisbane River also reached the highest level this century and the highest level since 1893. Similarly to Ipswich, the lower flood prone areas suffered extreme damage; 14 lives were lost, some 8,000 householders were affected, many totally destroyed, others damaged to the tune of thousands of dollars as a result of inundation and battering from both strong currents and water borne debris. Business houses and industry generally suffered countless millions of dollars in losses due to damage to premises, stock and loss of business. Estimated damage approximately $200 million in 1974 money values.

I would however place much more trust in the RAAF than FEMA. Knowing that help would be there sooner rather than later is calming in itself, and knowing that Help was actually coming and people would actually be there to help is reassuring.

Perhaps some of the other non-rhetorical questions do need to be looked at. Instead all I see is just jumping on and agreeing but not looking for a response to some of the questions. Really the only one that I see a response to is the organization in the Superdome--I too have heard of this.

Many of the other questions are societal rather than incident related. The last one however "Citizens who, at the first sign of trouble, stand around bewildered" does trouble me---I did see this---in NO, and I am sure that most of you have seen it happen before --and rather than just flaming me, let's ask if there is something to be done about it.

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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
40. a response.
certainly these stranded folks would have been better off to be kept in share-cropper servitude, kept in segregated communities, and redlined by banks and real estate companies to the point where ownership of any land would be prevented - and the bars to ownership would be backed by the power of the government.

Having a peasant class (as in Argentine) as opposed to a poor working underclass would be much more desirable. Economic policies before the New Deal, combined with Jim Crow - go back to the Depression Era - and imagine NO investment by the government to the majority of the public that was destitude. Now imagine todays economic policies of taking money from the poor and middle classes to pay for an ever enlarging government (and lots of wars) while giving tax break after tax break to the very wealthy and to corporations. Would we have ever come out of the Great Depreassion? Or would we look like a third world country with a small wealthy class (5% or so of the population) and a huge peasant class with little inbetween? Unless you currently have an income in the top 5% - had we followed a no government investment in the people model back in the Depression - it is likely that most of us would be more destitude than those stranded in New Orleans.

Is that really the vision of this country that you subscribe to?

Heck, current economic policies are working towards this type of stratified economic society. Won't it be great when folks such as your family are faced with a similar storm and don't have the basic resources to do the pulling together that you describe.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
44. All over-hyped, rose-colored nostalgic bullshit sprinkled with lies
No right wing "common sense" email is complete without a mention of "welfare mothers" (a lie Reagan spread in the eighties and was never called on) or "traditional values".

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expatriate Donating Member (853 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
45. This story is unparalleled horseshit.
I live in Australia and am married to an Australian. He's lived here all his life. I spent some years living in poverty in New Orleans, and other parts of the so-called Greatest Nation On Earth, the USA.

The completely fanciful story here is telling about the Brisbane floods after Cyclone Wanda in 1974.

Refer your "friend" to this webpage, which gives a much more realistic version of the Brisbane floods situation.

http://abcasiapacific.com/englishbites/stories/s1091238.htm

I would like you to particularly draw her attention to the following paragraph:

Australians were shocked by the enormity of the disaster. Recovery took years. Many people were angry. They thought state and local government should have done more to prevent such a disaster. Despite mitigation work, experts agree another major flood could still happen.

Everyone wasn't playing happy campers, singing around the campfire and banding together to throw another shrimp on the barby.

This woman needs to understand that there is no firewood in New Orleans for people to gather. Brisbane didn't have nearly the population of New Orleans in 1974. There wasn't the sheer magnitude of up to one million people affected. The people who supposedly wrote that idyllic little story of the happy Aussies singing Laugh Kookaburra during the floods weren't flooded themselves, I note. They might have done differently had they ended up with their home and all their possessions swamped, no power, getting herded off to the Superdome to be left there without anything for six days.

Yes, Australia depends on volunteer efforts for many things, particularly bushfire brigades. The population of Australia is small, only 20 million people. There is not the revenue or the resources to fund paid bushfire brigades. Australians turn out in force when there is a disaster, and there is a sense of lending a hand and helping your fellow Australians.

But no Australian has ever contended with the circumstances that occurred inside the Superdome. I can promise you that. And I can feel pretty sure that your modern Australian, with the exceptions of the hardy types found on cattle and sheep stations, would fare no better in a Mad Max situation than the people of New Orleans did. In fact, they would probably fare far worse, because they do not contend with the poverty and lack of opportunity that the people of New Orleans face as part and parcel of daily life.

Just because the Australian who wrote that apocryphal little fairy tale watches some reports on TV doesn't mean that they can possibly comprehend the circumstances your average poor working person in any major city of America. Australians earn good money, even those in minimum wage situations. Tell an Australian that minimum wage in America is $5.35 per hour, and they can't believe it. They have never contended with trying to live on that amount of money, and they have never dealt with the kind of poverty that your average resident of the housing projects in New Orleans copes with. They have a very good safety net of social services, despite the feeling on the part of many Australians that there should be more - and this social net includes nationalized health care, unemployment (the dole), old age pensions (and pensioners have all health care free), grants for tertiary schooling, etc. Things that poor people in America would stand up and cheer about.

Australians live in what they call the "lucky country" and I have found the city dwellers in particular, to be the softest people I've ever met. If the power goes out for an hour in Sydney, they don't know what the hell to do. Your average poor person in New Orleans would give his eyeteeth to have what the average "poor" person in Australia takes for granted.

I would also like to point out that there has been enormous news coverage of the Australian tourists who were stranded in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina. They have done nothing but whine and moan and complain about their ordeals - even though most of them stayed in a hotel, had access to food and water a good part of the time, and were not subjected to the horrific conditions in the Superdome. They are a national embarrassment compared to the 98% of people in the Superdome who did the best they could under unbelievable, depraved conditions.

Living in Australia has NOTHING to do with living in America. There is no comparison. Both countries speak a form of English, and that's where it ends. And no Australia should feel, under any circumstances, that they are in any position to judge those people in New Orleans.
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txindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. Wow, thanks for that information
Very enlightening. :toast:
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. Super post! HEY Y'ALL, READ THIS!! n/t
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. Unparalleled writing -- you really are amazing!
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #45
57. well said
maybe i can move to your country
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #45
65. WOW! Thanks for this, expatriate! Your insight will help
in my response! :yourock:
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #45
71. thank you expatriat
I am an American who has lived in Australia at one time and still have many family members there. What you are saying is absolutely true and to the point. There is no useful comparison between the plight of the people in New Orleans and the comfortable suburbanites of Brisbane. You made the case very well.

:applause:
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tenshi816 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #45
76. I have my doubts that it was even written by someone
who was in a flood in Brisbane. It reads like another of those e-mails that makes the rounds that has a few specifics (like place names and events), but still doesn't seem as if the person was really there - the whole flood story is just a prologue to slinging a lot of mud at the victims and the people who care about the victims.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were written by an American.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #45
81. Would you guys adopt me?
No, I'm kidding. Seriously, I've been to Australia twice and loved it. It was interesting, watching news reports about the U.S. on Aussie television. Most Americans have no idea what the rest of the world thinks of them. They also have no clue how the rest of the world lives. A while ago, I encountered a fellow who'd just come back from Norway. As I'd been to Norway myself, we compared notes.

"Wasn't it nice?" he said. "No mansions, but no slums, either. Good roads, clean cities."

"I know what you mean," I said. "If that's socialism, bring it on."

Not that I think the Norwegian system would work here. Two very different countries. However, I think most Americans would be shocked to learn how well people elsewhere in the world live. Not everywhere in the world, of course. But plenty of folk out there are darn comfortable.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #45
91. What a great post!
:thumbsup:
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atommom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #45
97. Thanks for your well-written explanation.
I knew it was horseshit, but now I see it's even horseshittier than I thought!
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Spike from MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #45
99. Expatriot, thank you for a most excellent post.
It's very well-written and I found it to be extremely informative.

And for the OP, as to the $1 trillion that your friend claims was spent on the poor, uh, I'm afraid I wasn't aware that Halliburton and Bechtel fell into the "poor" category so if she would care to cite her sources I would be most appreciative.

Why is it that people that call themselves "good Christians" more often than not are neither? I'm not saying that to offend any actual good Christians out there but hopefully everyone here understands that.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
48. I think a lot of media is spinning it that way - I recommend that people
like that (or anyone) listen to this for the point of view of people who were there:

"After the Flood"

http://www.thislife.org /
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
49. How is NOT having food or water the same
as the situation in Australia where the people had food and water???!!! :wtf:

Tell your friend good bye and good riddance! :puke:
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wellstone dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
53. They tried to create community and the communities were torn apart
Edited on Mon Sep-12-05 09:29 PM by wellstone dem
Send her the story that I've seen in many posts of the the emt workers and their experience. They did form communities, several times. They recovered food for each other, they shared. They fixed a storm drain to use as a latrine. And what happened. They were fired on when they tried to leave the city. Helicopters came down and blew their community apart. And the sheriff took their supplies.
Whenever a group of people came together the government became afraid, too many poor black people together is scary, don't ya know.

I'll find the post, now I'm mad once again.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?
az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4717479

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/10/national/nationalspecial/10emt.html

edited to add a link. This has been widely reported on NPR, Hardball, KO, etc. And edited again to add NYT link
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
56. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
58. Send her this link
http://www.ncccusa.org/poverty/sermon-heishman.html

Or a copy printed out. Maybe that will shut her up for a few minutes.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
59. Cyclone Wanda & resulting floods killed 16 people total
And this shameless asshole wants to compare that to what just happened on the Gulf Coast?

The police were magnificent. They woke people up and evacuated thousands of homes during that long night. Only two people drowned in our area - residents of a mobile home park whose trailer was swept away. The police commandeered trucks and backed them up to the local grocery store and loaded all the food and necessities, drove them to high ground and parked them.

Whereas in New Orleans, folks got left behind, and then left to shift for themselves. This bastard was helped by his government every step of the way; the poor of New Orleans were all but abandoned by theirs.

A tedious, tendentious screed written by some opportunistic, black-slapping ideologue with a selective memory. "Time for honesty"? I'll say it is!
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charmsicle Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
60. "Why didn't groups of men patrol the restrooms to prevent rapes?"
Uh, yeah. They did, actually. There were several reports of groups of men confronting rapists and assaulters at the Superdome.

"Why didn't the people in the Superdome make any effort to organize themselves?"

- Who says they didn't? You mean, like the one whole wall that was dedicated to people trying to find their relatives? That's organization. Families and neighbors sticking together? That's organization.

"We have gone a long way in the past 40 years to creating a dysfunctional society where self reliance, pride in one's self and a sense of right and wrong are no longer esteemed or even valued."

- This is just ridiculous. How do the actions of the evacuees fit into any of these categoreis?


"We have allowed our government and media to say to people that you are not at fault for what you do. You are victims, little children who can't look after yourselves."


- Yeah, it really sucks how the poor, black people created the hurricane, and then blamed the government. And then expected them to fix it. This kills me. Newsflash: Help was promised. Help was not delivered. These people were stuck in the Superdome with no resources, no transportation, ARRGH!!! What's ironic is that all probably thought they were doing what was best for themselves and their families. They had no idea when they went in that there would be no place to go. They weren't looking for a handout. They were looking for SAFETY. What the F***??

"We have told our minorities that everything that goes wrong is the result of racism. That you cannot succeed in a racist society."

- Sweetheart, I really hate to break it to you - you didn't have to tell us anything. I believe the proper word is "Show." "Our miniorities". Huh. Also, once again, it wasn't just black people that were fucked over. Plenty of white people are pissed, too.

"Hundreds of millions of dollars was raised throughout Australia. . Anyone who was submerged was given an initial $4,000 in CASH to tide them through."

- Kinda raising money here, too. Plenty of people have stepped forward to help their fellow man. And the $4,000? I'm sorry, how is that not a government handout? She didn't turn it down, now did she? And that $4,000? TWICE as much as was given to the evacuees...oh, I'm sorry, was given to some the evacuees until they cut them off.

Also, no one was "forced" to take in a refugee. People volunteered to do that. Just as other cities volunteered to take them in. Also, we're talking about close to 100,000 people. Also, there have been tons of reports of evacuees trying to make lives for themselves in their new towns. Also, you're an idiot.

"What right does society have to say that something is right or wrong?"
- Good point. Thank God we have YOU for that.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
62.  Citizens who, at the first sign of trouble, stand around bewildered. She
just described our so-called pResident. Don't know if she realized that.
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
66. Send her the story about the ems workers who were confronted by the Gretna
sheriff. Ask her if she thinks the EMS workers were helpless because they were lazy and pampered. Ask her if she would steal if her government had abandoned her without food, water or shelter and her wealthier neighbors despised her. Then ask if she also shows her disdain for the Royalists in Buckingham Palace who commit adultery while being lavished by British taxpayers.
P.S. If you don't have the link on the EMs workers let me know.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
68. Hmmm....
Isn't a cyclone like a tornado? A Typhoon is equivalent to a hurricane. (I've only read the first sentence, but I saw that error.)

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expatriate Donating Member (853 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. Cyclone is the term used for a typhoon/hurricane in Australia
The three terms describe the exact same type of large storm.

The term cyclone is used in some parts of the United States to describe a tornado. But any storm revolving around a low pressure cell, is a "cyclone". The names "hurricane" and "typhoon" are actually local names for such storms. "Hurricane" is Caribbean in origin, "typhoon" is Asian in origin.
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tomg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
69. Why do I have a feeling that eventually
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 07:20 AM by tomg
some idiot like Limbaugh or O'Reilly or one of the clowns from Townhall will start citing the letter like it's the gospel. It will magically become "fact." the whole thing, after the little Australian pastoral is a string of non-sequiturs. The author writes
"What does this have to do with New Orleans?" Very very little.

edit: typo
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tenshi816 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
72. Here's a few points
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 08:36 AM by tenshi816
relating to the e-mail your friend sent you (I realize the Australian experience didn't happen to her and that she was just forwarding it on to you, and that's what I'm addressing):

1. The Aussie disaster referred to supposedly happened in a small community called Goodna near Brisbane "back in the 70's". I call bullshit on this because if something like that had happened to the person writing that little essay, I guarantee you they'd remember which year it occurred.

2. The population of the metropolitan area of Brisbane in 2004 was only 1,774,890 (and that would presumably include Goodna), and it's highly likely that there were considerably fewer people there in the 1970's - fewer people, easier evacuation.

3. Assuming that the flooding referred to really did happen, from the way it reads it happened gradually over the course of 48 hours, which would have made evacuation easier. When the levee was breached in New Orleans, things happened a hell of a lot quicker.

4. If you go to this website: http://www.bom.gov.au/hydro/flood/qld/fld_history/floodsum_1970.shtml you'll find a Queensland Flood History Report 1970-1979, which says that the only "cyclone" activity that flooded the "Brisbane River" was in 1972 and it was referred to as "moderate". What happened in NO was not "moderate" by any definition of the term.

5. Brisbane isn't below sea level. Makes a difference.

While I'm not disputing that floods happen in Queensland, Australia, I'm not sure I believe the e-mail you received was written by someone who was really part of one. Although it gives a couple of place names, I still find it way too vague. It reads to me more like somebody did a little research on floods in a country with a lifestyle and geography similar to part of the USA, and then set out to score some points on both the people in New Orleans and the local government in Louisiana, in addition to getting a few shots in at liberals in the process.

Also, even assuming the author is telling the truth about being involved in a flood near Brisbane in the 1970s, there are too many factors that make the New Orleans situation completely different.

And then there's this weird couple of statements: "And most importantly, we have called morals old fashioned and judgmental. What right does society have to say that something is right or wrong?" WTF? It's completely contradictory.

Who, exactly, has called morals "old fashioned and judgmental"? It's the RWers who are the judgemental ones.

The message then goes on to ask "what right does society have to say that something is right or wrong?". The author obviously didn't think this one through, because the right-wing is always trying to legislate morality for the rest of us. Does this mean wingers aren't part of "society"? If a society itself doesn't decide what it considers right and wrong, who does? Oh, wait, that would be society's radical clerics, wouldn't it?

Why don't you ask your friend who sent the original e-mail to her? Who was the author? "Anonymous?"

Edited for typo.
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ernstbass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
75. I hope she reaps what she has sown
She may call herself a *tian but she is not following the teachings of Christ.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
80. "supposed" Good Christian is right.
She's just another who's swallowing the lies of FAUX news, Pat Robertson and their ilk.

Pharisees... that's what they are.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
82. What a bitch --
I can tell you that folks have helped each other here on the Coast, we have secured our homes, taken care of each other and stood together, long before the government came in to assist.

The bitch should come down as a volunteer and learn first hand how fucked up her thinking realing is. :grr:

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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
83. Probably hidden hatred for the "aboriginals" and my weren't the first
part and the last part contradictory.
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Contrary1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
86. Did those thousands of people find themselves
herded into a huge dark building with no food or water?

No, they had evening campfires where they sat with their neighbors, most likely discussing how very smart they all were.

How long did they have to wait for their freshly baked bread and unpasteurized milk?

Did they spend days hungry and thirsty, wondering why no one seemed to care enough to at least allow volunteers in with food?

"We knew we were going to be isolated and without water or power for some time. We started collecting all the rain water we could."

A far cry from having water 4 to 20 feet deep with bodies, oil, and God knows what else floating in it.

None of us can know what we would have done given the exact same circumstances.

She chooses not to see the differences.
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
87. Exactly how many babies born to poverty had previously commited crimes?
Ask her for the answer to that question.

Maybe that vision she tried to share with her account of the flood and community selflessness could extend itself to the poor.
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wildeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
88. Oh I don't even know where to start.
Is she still in Australia, or does she live in the states now?

First off, Australians tax themselves at a very high rate. They have stringent laws about special interest money in elections, and nearly 100% voter turnout. So they have a government that actually works for the people, not this corporatist nightmare we are stuck with here in the US.

In Australia, they have eliminated poverty. It is basically a welfare state. There is not a lot of stigma attached to going on the dole occasionally if you don't feel like working. At least according to my sis who lives there now.

There is no extreme poverty. Low income housing is distributed throughout the areas, so there is no concentrated areas of extreme poverty like we have in the US.

There is no homelessness for people who do not want to be homeless. The state provides housing.

What she describes early in her email is the government functioning properly. The government officials did their job. People were evacuated in a timely manner. Food and water were distributed equitably. Hey 50% taxes are a bitch, but it buys a lot of government. Maybe if the government functioned properly in NO, we would have seen better organization from the residents. Because they would have felt safe and protected. But because they were left to dehydrate and starve, things got a little crazy. If the government completely broke down in Brisbane during her storm, there might have been a completely different outcome to her little story.

I agree with her, we are reaping what we sowed, but it is allowing extreme poverty and racism to fester in our cities that bears the strange fruit, not helping people too much. And how dare this bitch (sorry) compare what happened in a country that does not allow poverty to what happened in NO.

You need to reevaluate this friendship. Some people can't be helped.
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
89. shower you with money
LOL!!!

You know what.. as a child my mom was on welfare for a couple of years. I remember going hungry alot, I remember having not so in fashions and hand me downs, shoes too big and biking if we need to go some place. But ya we were living HIGH on the hog weren't we! Lap of luxury there.

She was a single mom at 15 we were on our own at 18... my dad took off never even bothered to see me, but twice in his entire life.
But ya that was back before you could stipend his salary for child support. Back in the 70's there was no child support.

My life was by no means glamorous! This shit just comes from people who have no idea what it's like to be hungry. Not hand to mouth living.. but hungry, like a loaf of bread and some butter is a luxury.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
90. Duhhhh. The underfunded levees broke and killed these people she hates.
This woman is no Christian. She is obviously a hard-core bigot whose mask has been removed.
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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
93. Something random crossed my mind.
If the people left stranded in NO were to have any kind of a camp fire, not only would there be an increased risk of more fires, but then the police would have another reason to shhot them: starting fires in a time of crisis.

Not that there should be any reason to shoot the people, but can you imagine the rw talking points on that! "Those people are rioting with fires and looting! We can't save them now! They will kill us!" Remember, for a few days, they were afraid to enter NO because of the "looting." But, I'm sure the "finders" were quite alright to save.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
95. oops...sorry
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 07:41 PM by cynatnite
misunderstood and jumped the gun...my humble apologies :blush:
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
98. I'll tell you exactly what the difference is:
"Some of us had full freezers."

"The police commandeered trucks and backed them up to the local grocery store and loaded all the food and necessities, drove them to high ground and parked them."

"We started collecting all the rain water we could."

And another huge fucking difference - THE RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY IS DEEP AND WIDE AND HAS FINALLY BEEN EXPOSED.

And the 'government', such as it is, under the chimp, has been GUTTED. And if I hear one more repuke yammer on about personal responsibility I AM GOING TO SLUG THEM. WHEN has the chimp, or anyone else in his regime, EVER, EVER taken personal responsibility for ANYTHING?????????????????
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HoosierClarkie Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
101. She's disgusting.
"Nobody forced you to take in another family, everyone just did it."

Last I looked 600 homes in my area alone have volunteered their homes.

"Why didn't the people in the Superdome make any effort to organize themselves?"

Many of them did.

She is just ignorant and hateful. It really makes me sick because it sounds eerily familiar with what I have been hearing from family republicans after Katrina. Yes, one even said that it is Gods way of getting rid of the weak. Sounds like the underlying message from this woman. Well, I am effing glad that she and her fellow survivors were able to sit aroung a campfire instead of drowning! Geesh! I'd give up on her.
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