Did you know Arlen Spector was the author of the "magic bullet theory"?

[shance]

<< And if it is uncertain who actually won this war, remember that Arlen Spector, the man who helped concoct and perpetrate the single most absurd conning of the American public, the man who first articulated the Magic Bullet Theory, is still in power in Washington, D.C. >>

http://www.donreddick.com/tr_16.html

Arlen Spector, then a "young and ambitious junior Senator" from Pennsylvania made up this theory, then he was indeed involved in the cover up of the JFK assasination.

Spector could be seen as an accomplice to the greatest crime in American history and yet he is still lurking the halls of Congress and is given the authority to CHAIR INVESTIGATIONS??

This man doesnt need to be chairing committees, he needs to be removed from office and sent to trial, and then probably to prison.

[ET Awful]

1. I seem to recall seeing something saying he was at least involved

in concocting the theory. . . I just don't remember where I saw it :).

[FreedomAngel82]

2. I didn't know that

Wow. :wow: He knew about what really happened!!

[Imagevision]

23. Arlen Spector solely insisted to the Warren Comm. single bullet

was the only way it could happen with only one shooter. And if that side of government could be instrumental in killing a president? -- stealing an election is a piece of cake, it's probably the point Bush was sending with McCain Cake photo-op...

[frankly_fedup2]

107. We live here and we learn here everyday. Good to know (nt)

[Melodybe]

115. Just more proof that Bushco killed Kennedy

and MLK, and Malcom X, and Che Guevara, and John Lennoon, and every damn person that wants to fight for the people.

[Beaverhausen]

3. wasn't George the First involved in that cover-up somehow?

[ET Awful]

6. I don't know if he was involved in the cover-up, but he's the only

living American (with an arguably still functioning brain) who was an adult at the time that doesn't remember where he was when Kennedy was shot.

[maine_raptor]

7. He did give the FBI a report

I forget the exact wording, but his report, which is in the 26 volumes of evidence in the Warren Commission, concerned how he had "heard" the Lee Harvey Oswald was working for Castro.

[T Wolf]

11. CIA records show that George I was IN Dallas on 11/22/63!

but I guess that slipped his mind. He had been "assigned" there for some official task. What that was we may never know.

[maine_raptor]

17. Not Bush I, Nixon

Nixon was in Dallas in 11/22/63. He had attended a Pepsi bottlers convention and left just before JFK arrived.

[melody]

68. no, that's right, Bush Sr. was in Dallas

And Specter is an old CIA whore from way back.

[in_cog_ni_to]

101. Imagine that. You were in the same city as Kennedy on the day he was

assassinated and you don't remember? He was involved.

I was 8 years, old sitting in my 3rd grade classroom. I remember that day like it was yesterday.

[shance]

9. Apparently he wont account for where he was on the day JFK was killed

Then there was something to the effect he wrote a memo claim from Houston that there was a threat on the president's life. It wasn't found until after the assasination. I don't have the specifics on it.

[maine_raptor]

12. Actually he does

In that FBI report (see above), he stated that he was having lunch with business partners (oil) in Houston at the time of the assassination.

[Canuckistanian]

15. It's all very shadowy

On November 22, 1963, President Kennedy and the security people had a false sense of security. Houston and the alleged threat, which would have prompted needless security precautions, undoubtedly contributed to the false sense of security. (“Mr. Kennedy himself made the decision to ride in the slow-moving motorcade” even though “the original plans called only for a fast ride from the airport to a lunch at the Trade Mart.”) The person making the allegation of a Houston threat was George W. Bush’s father, George H. W. Bush, “a reputable businessman.”

The official document of the threat is shown in “The JFK Assassination: The Jim Garrison Tapes.” It reads: “Houston on November 22, 1963, advised that George H. W. Bush, a reputable businessman, furnished information to the effect that James Parrott has been talking of killing the President when he comes to Houston. A check with Secret Service at Houston, Texas, revealed that agency had a report that Parrott stated in 1961 he would kill President Kennedy if he got near him.”

All they had to do is check their records to find a suitably threatening person, like James Parrott, who “stated in 1961 he would kill President Kennedy if he got near him,” then have George Herbert Walker Bush, who would become the 41st President of the United States, “furnish information to the effect that James Parrott has been talking of killing the President when he comes to Houston,” and then, after making sure that Houston “went swimmingly,” have the threat officially documented on November 22, 1963, which may have very well been the day that George Bush actually supplied the information. President Kennedy and the security people would then discount the possibility of a threat in Dallas as the President reaped another harvest of admiration from another throng of ardent admirers who were lining the city streets.

[maine_raptor]

19. I take that Garrison book with a large grain (10LBS) of salt, Canuckistian

There are a large number of JFK assassination researchers that think Garrison may have been a plant to discredit the anti-Warren Commission forces back in the 60's.

The only connection between the assassination and GHWB is the FBI report that resides in the 26 volumes of the Hearings and Evidence.

Garrison's association with Life Magazine and NBC back them, plus his conviction (later) for corruption and his willingness to rely on some pretty weird theories in the JFK case have caused many in the research community to discount him.

[shance]

21. Then you probably haven't researched Garrison.

Have you listened to his interviews with Johny Carson?

Have you read any of his writings?

Accurate, which I believe he was, or not totally accurate, he was an amazing investigator who cared about his country. He was too clear sighted to be anything else but a truth seeker.

[maine_raptor]

26. Actually I have

Back in the 70's I was involved in getting the Congress to re-open the investigation. I have spoken with, at length, Garrison, Mark Lane, and many others involved in the anti-Warren effort.

I have read several of Garrison's books and in fact have an autographed copy of his first.

I'm not saying that ANYTHING Jim said or did was wrong, some of it, like his uncovering of the Ferrie connection, was quite good, but to take him as the sole arbitrator of the truth, no.

Jim may have started out with motives of gold, but as the years progressed he changed. Maybe it was the publicity, maybe the pressure, I don't know, but the fact is that he got wrapped up in some truly bizarre theories (ice pellet guns, shot from the sewer, etc.)

The JFK Assassination changed this country in ways that we are only beginning to see. After almost 40 years of study and research on this subject I am convinced that the true facts of the case are lost in history and now shadowed in myth. Ask any homicide detective and they will tell you that if a murder is not solved within 24 hours, the chances are that it never will be.

I do not believe in the Warren Commission or that JFK was killed by one lone gunman. The truth is more complex and at this late date all we can do is uncover bits and pieces around the edge. The legacy of the act must be a remembrance of what the man (JFK) stood for, what he believed in, and work to bring that about.

[shance]

56. Well you have done your research, to put it mildly*.

My research has left me greatly impressed with Garrison. I have not reached into the later years and heard about these theories you speak about.

I'd be interested in reading up on them though, if you have any links to such theories.

[Usrename]

72. Who was the driver of Kennedy's limo? He seemed a little slow.

[maine_raptor]

82. I think it was Roy Kellerman

don't remember if that was the driver or the SS agent riding shotgun. Both of those agents had been up light the night before in a bar in Fort Worth, thus their reflexes were a might off. But the turn onto Elm St was sharp and forced the limo to slow down to 11 mph. At that speed, accelerating to a higher speed (to escape the kill zone) would take a few seconds.

[Usrename]

84. Not buying slow reflexes myself. Any normal human would be

shaking the steering wheel back and forth (at least) if they were being shot at for 7 or 8 seconds. The guys walking behind the car actually got in. I can detect no response from the driver until the moment of the fatal shot. He was watching in the rear-view. Don't try to convince me otherwise. I'll listen to other opinions, of course. But I won't deny my own lying eyes.

[bobbieinok]

73. Mark Lane....DLipstadt's book places him as a major Holocaust denier

I was shocked to learn this; I'd always felt he was one of the good guys in the investigation of JFK's assasination

wasn't he one of the lawyers for the Chicago 7???

[Canuckistanian]

51. I'm not saying one way or the other

Just that there were a lot of weird things that went on. And the Warren Report does nothing to clear things up in my mind.

Whether I believe Garrison's version or someone else's, is still up in the air.

[maine_raptor]

54. I hear ya

The Warren Report is one thing, but the 26 volumes of the Hearings and Evidence are another. In fact, if you go thru the 26 volumes you'll find that they actually tell a different story.

I subscribe to no one person's theory. But between the 26 volumes, the data gathered by the House Select committee and data/research done by researchers (like myself) over the years it's pretty hard to believe that JFK was killed by one person.

If you ever have the chance to go to Dallas and visit Dealy Plaza (which I recommend), I can guarantee that you will have the same reaction that everybody does the first time they see the place: "I never realized it was so small."

[Toots]

89. What about the second commission set up in the mid to late sixties?

The one that said without a doubt there was a conspiracy and more than one shooter. We hear very little about this second commission, only the Warren Commission...

[maine_raptor]

91. The House Select Committee on Assassinations

Setup in 1978, was given a year to conduct business. There was a lot, and I mean a lot, of in-fighting between members and staff.

A couple of days of televised hearings were held, but the MSM for the most part ignored it. The major conclusion was that 4 shots had been fired, based on an audio dicta-belt of the gunfire recorded on a Dallas Police radio channel and a recreation of the assassination.

This finding was disputed and AFTER Reagen was elected the National Academy of Science tried to discount it.

But the committee's report and it's testimony and evidence are available on CD now, so you can read it yourself. They did some good work in spite of the problems and troubles that were throw in their way.

[melody]

69. there is some merit all around

Garrison went stone paranoid for awhile, though it's not surprising he did. He was being feted by other equally-worthwhile-but-still-paranoid researchers like Mae Brussell.

A lot of these researchers came out with a lot of important material - they also targeted a lot of innocent people with unfair attacks.

[maine_raptor]

4. Yup

and when questioned about it a few years later, he said:

"To say that President Kennedy and Governor Connelly were hit by separate bullets is synonymous with saying there was more than one assassin."

[DemonFighterLives]

5. Yes I know that

but everybody loves him now.
That theory should make him dirty to every self respecting American, but the findings of the Warren Commission still stand in some folks minds.
The Select Committee on Assassinations found otherwise that there was a conspiracy, but just last year Peter Jennings and the boys tried ot reinforce the Oswald story.

[shance]

8. The truth will always out. As long as there are people willing to tell it

:)

[DemonFighterLives]

14. They seem to be hoping that anyone with a memory of Kennedy

will be gone when the truth comes. I was a little boy and can still remember everyone crying. This dispicable act happened with the knowledge and consent of some that still hold power to this day. Shameful bastards, I hope I can live long enough to see their name disgraced.
It is pretty well padded over now and most of the trails have gone cold, but still.
I'm tired of all the great democrats being destroyed by these corrupt sobs.
What could have been?:think:

[shance]

20. It's up to us isnt it? I watched JFK the other day and hadn't watched it

in years and the last time I watched it I was much more naive and idealistic than I am now.

I encourage everyone to take a look at that film again.

It is like a papparazzi of light bulbs going off when watching it now, after five years of this Administration.

Brilliant film overall. I see why Stone got the Inquisition for producing such an honest, confrontational of the Military Industrial complex film. Like Platoon, it speaks truth to power imo.

[calico1]

50. I agree that JFK is a good film.

I have it and have seen it several times. However, its important to keep in mind that this film is not a documentary. Rather, it is Oliver Stone's point of view or interpretation of what he feels happened. I recall some critics at the time the movie came out feeling that a lot of people who were not around during the assasination (I was 5 and barely remember) would take this movie to be a totally factual account of the events. I think Stone presented some interesting theories in the movie but that's what they are--theories, not proven facts.

[Zhade]

58. If young people have to choose...

...they're far better served believing the movie over the Warren Commission, as it is far closer to the truth than that lie of an "investigation" could ever dream of getting.

[shadowlight]

64. check out jfk ii

nowhere near the production of jfk
but the info is fascinating

[dogday]

10. The Warren Commission was like the 9-11 Commission

make a lot of noise about it and still they don't uncover the truth. They skim the surface and stay with the story. It's a damn shame we can't find the truth.

[CatWoman]

13. Arlen sure gets around

Yes, I knew that -- he was also Ira Einhorn's attorney before he jumped bail and fled to Europe after murdering Holly Maddox.

[DemonFighterLives]

16. Now that I didn't know

:beer:

[shance]

18. I dont know about this CW.

Could you give a cliff note versh please?

[CatWoman]

24. it's gonna cost ya!!

:D

Ira Einhorn emerged to major media prominence as master of ceremonies for the first "Earth Day" in Philadelphia in 1970. This recognition gave Einhorn immediate access to the best minds of his generation. His networking and consulting skills not only enamored him with to New Age counterculture crowd but also captured the imaginations of such corporate giants as AT&T, who hired Einhorn as a consultant to better tap them into the New Age information highway that was just then getting underway. Shockingly, on April 28, 1979 the remains of Einhorn's long-time girlfriend Holly Maddox were found in a steamer trunk in Einhorn's apartment, the victim of an ax murder. Einhorn was subsequently arrested but he denied murdering Maddox, saying in essence that the CIA had set him up because of certain information to which he'd become privy through his vast network of Aquarian Conspirators. Einhorn hired former Warren Commission lawyer Arlen Spector to represent him, which takes this tale on another sordid twist. Specter was the infamous creator of "The Magic Bullet Theory" which convicted a defenseless Lee Oswald in his grave. While out on bond Einhorn skipped the country and has been seen in recent years in Ireland - among other foreign countries - using a false identity with a new girlfriend. When someone in Ireland discovered his identity, the Unicorn promptly left for parts unknown and the last I heard he is still at large.

http://www.alphane.com/moon/PalmTree/unicorn.htm

[shance]

31. Put it on the DU tab**** :) I wonder why he picked Spector to defend

him?

Interesting info CW*** - you always come through, no matter what the price. ;)

[Sugarcoated]

55. I always wanted to really read up on the assasination

but there's so much fiction mixed into the truth out there.
Can anyone recommend a good credable book or two? I like Jim Mars, but his conspiricy beliefs run so deep, I don't know about him. Alot of what he says seems right on, though.

[Beam Me Up]

66. Deep Politics and the Death of JFK by Peter Dale Scott

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520205197/qid=1126569391/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-3621831-8059946?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[xxqqqzme]

90. WHAT!!!!

I didn't know that. OMG, how did he get elected? and re-elected? and re-elected?

[Imagevision]

22. --> Bush Sr. & Nixon, the only 2 people who can't recall where they were

on 11/22/63 - amazing what's revealed when you google "George H.W. Bush and JFK assassination" paints a traitoresque picture of pappy, really weird shit backed up with pdf's from the FBI files.

Bush Sr. was the only one left from firing-resigning who Nixon said;
"no, Bush is ok, he's loyal and a fighter"

[maine_raptor]

27. See #17 Above

[Johonny]

25. Give Spector a break

He was doing his job. It was his job to think of a way for 1 bullet to cause the multiple injuries to the President and Governor. It is "just a theory". It remains not that bad a theory when you look at the evidence.

[CatWoman]

28. so, you're saying that a bullet, one bullet

can be fired and strike one man, take a nap, have a beer, strike another man, smoke a joint, eat a sandwich, then strike another man and come to rest inside the third man's leg?

and the cartridge to said bullet would have no indentations or evidence of being used?

why can't we get a shit load of these damn things to ship to Iraq?

That would help free up our soldiers so that they can build more schools :eyes:

[Johonny]

34. Yes

The shot does not have to happen the way Oliver Stone showed it. There is enough evidence out there that one shot could have hit JFK, travel down through his body, tumble through Connelly. It IS POSSIBLE BASED ON THE EVIDENCE. The problem with JFK assassination is the evidence. Which for the most part sucks.

[maine_raptor]

39. Facts are a hard thing

If you look at Zapruder Frame 256, you'll see Connelly's cheeks puff out. This is his bodies reaction to A bullet passing thru his lung. It is NOT a voluntary reaction. This happens 1.5 seconds AFTER the first shot is fired. The rifle Oswald is supposed to have used could not have been fired, re-cocked, and fired again in that time.

To this date NO ONE has been able to duplicate that feat of shooting that is necessary for the single bullet to be real.

"To say that President Kennedy and Governor Connelly were hit by separate bullets is synonymous with saying there was more than one assassin." - Arlan Spector, Chief Counsel of the Warren Commission.

[Qibing Zero]

41. Shrug, I must have been dreaming about that documentary then

The guy duplicated it pretty well.

[maine_raptor]

43. See #42 below

[chicagiana]

98. I saw a reconstruction ...

I saw a reconstruction with a professional marksman doing the shots on a moving limo from on top of a scaffolding of the correct height and distance.

The shots themselves were no problem (though this guy was probably a WAY better marksman than Oswald). The real problem they had was with the gun constantly jamming. That model was known for it.

The verdict ... possible, but unlikely.

Myself, I hold that the kill shot was done my another marksmen, not Oswald.

[maine_raptor]

35. Don't forget, CW

the TWO (2) right angle turns in midair.

And it does have an indentation in the nose (material taken out by the FBI for Neutron Activation Analysis) and the base is dented...but other than that, it's clean.

And there is more metal still in the thigh of John Connely's body then was lost from the bullet (Commission Exhibt #399).

[chicagiana]

99. No right angle turns ...

Conelly is sitting in a jump seat and is turned at the time of the "magic bullet" shot. When the scene is reconstructed properly, their is no "magic" involved. The trajectory is pretty straight and variances in angle can be accounted for by a bullets natural tendancy to change direction in human flesh.

Remember the "magic bullet" is not the kill shot. It's just a red-herring meant to distract people from the bullet that actually blew the presidents brains out the back of his head.

Kennedy had an exit wound in the back of his head and an entry wound in the front. Jackie, leapt onto the back of the limo to retrieve a piece of JFK's skull and than replaced it onto the back of his head.

That is an EXIT wound. Forget the magic bullet. It is an intentional ploy to keep people's attention away from the REAL problem. Forget the number of shots and the dictaphone, they're also BS.

I recently saw a few forensic reconstructions. They concentrated 100% on the magic bullet and the audio evidence. Of course they debunked it. IT WAS MEANT TO BE DEBUNKED. One actually said that the Zabruder film DID NOT SHOW the kill shots (which it did).

It's classic magician work. They get you all riled up about nothin' while they're doin the real work.

Forget the magic bullet, it's a bunch of BS. The piece of JFK's skull on the back of the limo is the real smoking gun.

[maine_raptor]

104. Once again See post # 42

The "reconstruction" was soooooo cooked it is not funny.

[Qibing Zero]

36. It's extremely hard, like with 9/11, to believe the entire official story

But the recreations of the magic bullet theory I've seen do give some credit to it. On the other hand, I think the program I watched was on discovery and unless they're talking about wildlife it's become hard to trust much of their programming. =P

[TX-RAT]

37. I don't know

Seems the(take a nap, have a beer,)(smoke a joint, eat a sandwich,) may be a little far fetched but, i did see a test done that accomplished this exact same scenario. 1 bullet,2 victims and multiple wounds.

[CatWoman]

40. see response #39

[maine_raptor]

42. Saw that too

On the Discovery Channel...it was a cooked test, the gun was well oiled, the telescopic sight was well grounded ( the original had to have shims placed under the frame to hold it steady when the FBI test fired it in 1963), and the rear seat JFK's on the target vehicle was raised about 4.5 inches higher than the original one. They got the dimensions from the original limo, but that car had been re-build shortly after the assassination.

[chicagiana]

106. I've seen two different reconstructions lately ...

One involved a "simple test" whereby the feasability of the three shots were test. The shooter was on scaffolds and the target was a melon (in a moving car). It took the guy MANY tries to get the shot off. Mainly because the gun kept jamming.

This only tests the feasibility of Oswald making all three shots AND the kill shot on a live moving target.

In my opinion that test showed the shot "feasible but unlikely".


The other reconstruction I saw tested the "magic bullet theory" using a functional ballistic forensic dummy. This was basically the type of stuff you see on "mythbusters" except with organic parts (pig bones) put in the appropriate places. This test was on a stationary target to see if the munition could strike all the targets for the "magic bullet" shot.

They duplicated the shot using the dummies. The only difference was the bullet lodged in the slab representing Governor Conneley's leg instead of going through it.

If you accept that they heights, distances and orientation of the figures in in car are correct, than the shot is 100% feasible and likely.

But it's really not that big of an issue since this is NOT the shot that killed Kennedy. That shot merely wounded Kennedy in the neck.


The REAL question is where the "kill shot" came from. The magic bullet speaks NOTHING about this other than to solve the question of 2 assasins vs MULTIPLE assasins.

How "cooked" that reconstruction is is certainly debateable. But judging from the Presiden't and Connely's reaction from the Zabruder film, I found the reconstruction VERY credible. Yet it does not sway my opinion that Oswald's gun did NOT kill Kennedy.

[maine_raptor]

108. I agree that LHO's rifle did not kill JFK, but

IMHO, the "single bullet theory" is one of the weakest points that the lone gunman proponents have to over come.

Once again, on the use of "a look-alike oswald's gun" being used:

According to FBI reports, which can be found in the 26 volumes of Hearings & Exhibits of the WC, the gun found in the TSBD had the following problems; 1) the telescopic sight was loose and had to have shims inserted between the barrel and the sight, 2) the sight itself was found to be "off" (high and to the left), 3) in such condition that the FBI experts were very hesitant to actually fire it in fear that it would cause them harm.

BTW: Many supporters of the WC claim that the fact that the scope was off "helped" LHO shoot accurately.

I do NOT accept that the "heights, distances and orientation of the figures in in car are correct" on these reconstructions. Why? Because in late 1964, while the Warren Report was still undergoing final revision, the limo was returned to the Ford factory in Dearborn, MI and COMPLETELY rebuilt. NO blueprints exist as to the exact placement of the rear seats vs the jump seats where Connelly and his wife were seated. In addition, even if you did have the numbers, placement of the targets would have to match exactly, a difference of as much as 12 inch would be enough to throw the test off (considering the bullet diameter is about 1/4 inch).

Photos of JFK at autopsy time show an "entrance" wound in the back that is LOWER than the "exit" wound in the throat. How could that happen when the shot was fired from "above and behind"? According to the autopsy doctors, there was NO path from the back to the front. One of them found that the bullet appeared to only have traveled the length of his pinkie into the back (he probed it).

As to the reactions on the Z-film, aside from Connelly's cheeks puffing out, there is the fact that he is holding his ten-gallon hat in his right hand during the time that CE#399 is said to be traveling through his right wrist. A wrist that I might add was "shattered" (according to his doctors) by the impact of the bullet.

Finally, I urge you to travel to Dallas yourself. Take a look at Dealy Plaza and go to the TSBD. Look out the window where LHO was supposed to be. And when you do ask yourself why didn't he take the shot as the limo traveled down Houston St towards the TSBD rather than wait until after it had passed onto Elm St.

Yes, the head shot(s) are important, but the single bullet nonsense is the key to understanding what happened that terrible day.

[chicagiana]

109. It's difficult to have a conversation without the film in hand ...

...

Mind you I'm skeptical about everything including skeptics ;-) I did sense that Discovery Channel WAS cooking something because they said the Zabruder film didn't have the "kill shot" which clearly is not true.

The geometries inside the vehicle can all be reconstructed by measurements in the Zabruder film. But I do agree that such test could easily be "rigged" by fudging numbers. Sometimes the "sophistication" of a model is just a smokescreen for BS.

One would have to conduct a detailed analysis in order to determine whether the the Discovery forensic reconstruction (Unsolved History I believe) was valid.

I also saw discrepancies between what people said THAN and what people say now. I saw them send doctors who did autopsies in to national archive rooms alone to view photos and come out saying completely different things than they said the day the JFK was shot. One has to wonder exactly WHAT was in those rooms.

A functional conversation is probably only possible while watching the tapes. But I still think the "magic bullet" is a red herring. I like to distill things down to their essense. The kill shot is all important. Everything is window dressing.

I've seen farsical explanations on how a shot from the back of the head would cause a body to recoil backwards. I've seen equally idiotic contortions on how the pattern of entrance and exit wounds could be reversed. It's all incredible BS.

I think there is cognitive dissonance on EACH side of the issue VERY intentionally (as well as multiple cooks on the conspiracy side) that makes sorting through all the BS VERY difficult.

[maine_raptor]

110. You have to remember that the Z-film is two dimensional

Many people have tried to reconstruct the exact placement of Kennedy and Connelly based upon the Z-film and others. None to my mind has ever succeded...why? Because of the tolerances involved and the fact that you are trying to solve a puzzle in three dimensions with 2 dimensional evidence. Once again, the 6.5mm bullet being claimed is about 1/4 inch in diameter. If you are off by that about or more, then your recreation is NOT factual.

I agree that one has to shift through the evidence carefully. That is why I like to go back to the original FBI reports and interviews. Not only are they closest to contemporary (1963), but given the tenor of the times, people were more willing to speak truthfully to the FBI back then.

On the head shot...even if there was some sort of explanation for the backwards movement that did not involve a shot from the front, you would still have to explain the blood/brain splatter that spread to the rear. Unfortunately there are, as far as I know, no documented photos of the limo as it was parked at Parkland Hospital. If there were I'm quite sure that they would show less blood/brain splatter in the front of the car than in the rear. Again evidence of a shot from the front.

However I find thompson's evidence of a duel head shot to be quite persuasive. Read Six Seconds in Dallas if you can find a copy. I t would explain a lot of the difference between what the doctors at Parkland saw and what the autopsy doctors saw.

BTW: did you get my PM?

[chicagiana]

112. The magic of geometry ...

If you have multiple 2-d pictures of something from different angles, you can reconstruct the geometry.

There are more than enough pictures of the car to tell you approximately where all the seats were.

You should have blood/brain splatter in both the front and the rear. And that is borne out quite clearly by the Zabruder film. But obviously the volume on the exit wound will be a LOT more than through the entrace wound (the whole is MUCH bigger).

I did get your personal message. Just remember I am a skeptic of pretty much everything.

I don't think this issue will EVER be solved or resolved. Too much evidence was tampered with for specific purposes for us to ever know. I think things are as those who conducted the event want them to be. It serves a purpose of distraction that is valuable.

At the same time it serves as a warning to those in power about what can happen to you if you start behaving in ways that aren't conducive to those who write the campaign checks. There has to be a mechanism for politicians with bouts of integrity and conscience. Just ask John Tower and Paul Wellstone ;-)

[maine_raptor]

113. Yes but

Were all those picture snapped at the exact same time? If not then your geometry will be off.

Yes you will have spatter in both directions, but more towards the direction in which the bullet was traveling, which makes Thompson's theory so interesting.

The assassination will never be solved IMHO because so much time has passed, so many witnesses and participants are dead, so much evidence has been lost, etc. One of the reasons I am no longer as involved in the case as I once was is because of the frustration with these facts. That and quite frankly the back biting and tussle with all those folks that want THEIR own personal theory to be the one that solves the case.

As to your last point...it is interesting to note two fact about American History since that day. 1) That was the last time in Presidential History that a Vice President and President were in the same motorcade, and 2) No major politician has ever bucked against the anti-Castro movement in this country since that day.

The message was delivered and in the years since it has been obeyed.

[chicagiana]

114. More geometry ...

Assuming that the dignitaries in questions posteriors are in approximately the same places, pictures snapped at different times should be more than enough.

You can get a VERY good idea of the height of Connely's jump-seat simply by the way he is sitting in the car. His arms is propped up a little above should height on the window sill. If you have the know the height of the man, and you have ANY pictures of him standing, you can determine the length from posterior to torso. You can tell the horizontal location of the seat (and connely) by looking at how far over the window-sill his arm his hanging.

The President's orientation is a bit tougher. But it's obvious from the start the the president is sitting WAY higher than the governor. But you can get a VERY good sense of his horizontal alignment immediately. Ground level pictures would give you a better sense of his vertical orientation.

Through careful analysis, ALL of these locations can be determined.


Regarding the "message". I don't think the Miami Cubans had the muscle to pull this off. It's pure political expediancy that keeps the anti-Castro position in place.

I DO think that Jack was getting "soft" in terms of his hard line anti-communist type stances. The CIA was getting quite adept at uprooting socialist democracies in the 3rd world and replacing them with Batista type dictators who took their orders from US industrialists. Tie this in with the mob's obvious resentment (and Hoover's loathing of the Kennedy's) and you have plenty of candidates for the job.

There are certainly unlikely people involved in such a "conspiracy". But the CIA was certainly not above doing business with mobsters and thugs all over the world. To the mob, it's "just business". For the FBI, the lack of due dilligence in investigation is mostly passive.

Bobby was certainly even more liberal than his brother. And to me it's no wonder that he was wacked as well. And the subsequent "investigation" was an obvious FBI white-wash.

[maine_raptor]

117. Throw in also (among others)

The height of the camera from the ground and the angle to the subject (above or below). Distance to subject also important.

The angle (slope) of the car on the road itself and it's orientation to the line of fire.

Also the rear seat of the limo had the ability to be raised or lowered, so you would have to know the setting at the time. Likewise, the jump seat in front of JFK sat on rails that could be moved left/right to facilitate entry/exit of backseat passengers.

And remember you are dealing with a missile that is 6.5mm in diameter......That is your margin of error (MOE).

Over 25,000 photos taken before, during and after the assassination (counting single frames of movies as a single photo).

The magazine Computers & Automation tried back in the 70's to do what you are proposing, never could get it to with in that MOE.

I know the House Select Committee tried also, likewise they failed (to my mind), but that did not stop them from endorsing the SBT.

Between the difficulty of the photos, the missing data (limo seat setting, lack of blueprints), and the small MOE it is a daunting task.

[chicagiana]

118. Heights, etc ...

The external geometry of the body itself (the limo) is trivial. It is symetric and can be easily derived. The heights of cameras can be derived by the vehicles orientation.

I'm assuming that the JFK and Connely were not adjusting their seats while they were waving to the crowds. Car seats are not rocking chairs.

Regarding Margin of Error, you don't need 6.5mm precision. You only need to get the figures "close" to demonstrate feasibility.

Using these constraints for precision would make it just as difficult for you to "debunk" the magic bullet as it would be for a proponent to demonstrate it's feasibility.

It boils down to whether the President was sitting high enough and whether the Governor was turned to talk to the President at the time the "magic bullet fired". If the President was bent over to speak to the governor at the time, that explains the seemingly "upward trajectory" of the bullet as it passes through the President.

If you are to tell me that such an scenario is impossible (not necessarily true or untrue (likely vs unlikely), you have lost me as an audience who views your viewpoints as credible. I don't care how long you have been looking at the issue.

[maine_raptor]

119. The Z-film shows the actions of JFK and Connelly

At no time during the six seconds does JFK bend forward to talk with Connelly.

Was the President sitting higher? It appears so based on the photos (Z-film, Willis photos etc). Was it high enough? Never mind that for a moment, because you still have to get over the hight difference between the wound in JFK's back and the one in his throat. And remember there appears to be no path through the body for this missile, according to the autopsy doctors.

First the back wound. Based upon the hole in the shirt JFK was wearing that day, the wound appears to be about 6/7 inches below the shirt collar. There was some talk that the shirt was bunched up, but photos of his back taken during the autopsy confirm that location.

Second the throat wound. The actual wound in JFK's throat was destroyed by the doctors at parkland hospital in the attempt to save his life. However the shirt does display a hole in the collar just below the collar's button hole and that corresponds with a small nick in the tie's knot.

Now if you line up the spot on the back with the spot on the front you end up with an UPWARDS trajectory (back to front). The ONLY way it could be an actual DOWNWARDS trajectory (back to front) would be for JFK to have been leaning extremely forward, but like I said the Z-film shows no such action happening.

And if JFK was sitting substantially higher than Connelly, then that would only make that upwards trajectory through JFK's body even more pronounced.

Another point, the puffing of Connelly's cheeks. As I said before this is an anatomical reaction caused by the passage of a bullet through his right lung. The bullet's shock wave forces the air in his lung out his throat and causes the cheeks to puff out. This is plainly seen in the Z-film and happens approximately 1.5 seconds after JFK reacts to the shot to the back. The fastest Oswald's rifle could fire 2 shots was 2.3 seconds and that time DOES NOT count time to reacquire the target following the working of the bolt action.

In order to "debunk" the SBT all that has to be done is to show one of the following:

1) There is no path between the back wound and the throat wound in JFK - autopsy doctors do that.

2) The timing of the impact on both men did not happen at the same time - Z-film and Connelly reaction to being hit on that film do that.

None of what I have written here about the angles deals with the problems the SBT has in the left/right plane, simply the up/down.

The timing still remains a problem no matter how you line the two men up.

[chicagiana]

97. I've seen some practical investigations ...

I've seen some practical investigations on that bullet. When people are lined up a certain way (properly) the tragectory of the bullet is largely a straight line.

The "magic bullet" is a red herring because it is never presented properly by it's skeptics. I've seen the shot replicated by forensic reconstructionists. Using forensic bodies (anonomically correct dummies constructed of pig bones and ballistics gell).

These guys also fired a LOT of bullets into various bodies. And they were consistent with the bullet found on the litter.

But that DOES NOT account for the kill shot. And I maintain that shot was fired by another party somewhere IN FRONT of the president.

[maine_raptor]

103. OK one more time

Yes when the target are lined up it will be a straight line, but on that day in Dallas they were not.

Second, a review of the Zapruder film shows that the bullet that hit Connelly struck him 1.5 seconds AFTER JFK is reacting to a shot (see post #39 this thread).

Third, Commission Exhibit #399 (The Magic Bullet) is supposed to have passed through two bodies, struck five (5) major bones and remained virtually intact. To this day there is more metal still in John Connelly's wrist and thigh than is missing from CE#399.

Fourth, the police officer (forgot his name) who found the "bullet" on the stretcher, told the FBI that the bullet he found was "pointed, not rounded" like CE#399. (See Six Seconds in Dallas for details).

Fifth, the litter where the bullet was found was probably NOT used to transport either JFK or Connelly. That little detail can be found in both Six Seconds and in the 26 volumes of the WC Hearings and Exhibits.

I agree with you on the head shot. Thompson (Six Seconds) shows, using detailed measurements, that at Zapruder frame 312 JFK's head start a FORWARD motion, which is reversed into a backwards motion at 313 (the head shot frame). The backwards motion has been estimated at over 100 mph, far higher than any "jet effect" or "neuro-muscular reaction" could account for, say WC supporters would have you believe.

[shance]

32. Give JFK A BREAK if you want to grant sympathy to somebody.

It was his job to blame Oswald. Don't pass the buck.

[Johonny]

38. Sorry

It was his job to find a possible solution to the shooting. It could (and most likely did) happen the way he speculated. The "magic" bullet theory is just a theory based on the evidence. But amazingly to date after countless hours, books and a pretty good Oliver Stone movie. Not a single other person has been found that show Oswald didn't shoot JFK. If there were multiple guns and multiple shooters YOU FIND THEM AND TELL SPECTOR WHO THEY ARE. Good luck.

[Frederik]

44. How do you suggest we go about finding them?

[maine_raptor]

46. They are most probably dead

Dallas Police Office Mike Smith encountered a man with Secret Service credentials on the Grassy Knoll within 2 minutes of the last shot. Secret Service records show that NO SS personal were stationed there.

But consider this: When the FBI examined the rifle that Friday night in Washington DC lab, they found NO fingerprints. Yet the following Monday, the Dallas Police announced that fingerprints had been found...on the underside of the rife barrel AFTER it had been disassembled. A FBI fingerprint examiner testified that the print found by the Dallas police was "very unlikely to have come form a cylindrical shaped object like a rifle barrel". Later interviews with the funeral parlor workers in Fort Worth (were LHO's body was taken after he died) reveled that Dallas police offices came to the parlor late Sunday night and spent time with the body before leaving.

No extra ammo was found (three empty shell casings and one live bullet were found in the TSBD) anywhere in LHO's rooms or houses.

There is a photo taken of the steps of the Texas School Book Depository at about the time of second shot (Algens Photo for those that know the evidence). In that photo a man looking a lot like LHO is seen on the top step of the main entrance of the building. The FBI claimed that it was a co-worker of LHO, Billy Murchinson. However a photo taken later that day show Murchinson with a beard. The man is the Algens photo is, like LHO, clean shaven.

My theory, for what it is worth, is that the actual shooters were killed shortly after the act.

[DelawareValleyDem]

65. Billy Lovelady, not Murchinson

I'm very suspicious of the official story, but the Altgens photo doesn't add much to the case that Oswald wasn't involved.

[maine_raptor]

81. You're right the name was Lovelady

I wrote that post from memory, so forgive an old man's failings.

The Altgens photo does not by itself prove anything, but when combined with several other photos taken that day and some of the FBI interviews done just after the event, a very powerful case can be made that Oswald was where he always claimed he was during the assassination: at or near the second floor lunchroom, not on the sixth floor of the TSBD.

[melody]

76. have you read any of the arguments to the book you're citing

Namely, the book by Vladimir...um, I mean Gerald Posner?

[maine_raptor]

83. Yea, Posner is a WC apologist

Posner ignores more than he refutes. And in some case just plain makes stuff up.

That was his first book and it came out at the time of Stone's movie when the MSM was trying to downplay the re-awaking of the JFK/WC doubts.

[DelawareValleyDem]

86. I hated Case Closed. I try to be open-minded

when reading lone-gunman literature, but that one really repulsed me.
As you mentioned, much has been written contradicting Posner's claims and criticizing his approach to the evidence; I'll mention one example that doesn't get discussed too much. Near the back of the book, Posner briefly discusses the testimony of James Worrell, stating that it 'supports the Warren Commission conclusion about the location of the assassin'. What Posner doesn't mention is that Worrell also stated hearing FOUR shots, in direct contrast to the Commission's findings. Such selective reading of witness statements does not enhance his credibility.

[maine_raptor]

87. Posner does that quite a bit as do a number of WC supporters.

Unfortunately so do a number of the multi-gunmen supporters. When you are going through the literature on the assassination, you have to be careful there too.

In my booklist I left out Dave Lifton's book, Best Evidence, because of Lifton's ignoring of testimony and facts that question some of his conclusions. There are a number of authors that one has to be very careful with for they tend to come up with a theory and then fit the facts.

It happens on both sides of the question.

[DelawareValleyDem]

92. No doubt.

There certainly are distortions on both sides. Lifton, and I would argue Mark Lane, certainly fit that description. What bothered me about Posner was not only this tactic but also what I felt was a know-it-all approach to the evidence, right down to the title of his work.

A couple of books I would add to your list.

The Oswald Affair A rare, old (circa 1965) volume by Frenchman Leo Sauvage.

Farewell America Another oldie. A lot of speculation, but it's plausible conjecture. IMHO, Jim Marrs cribbed HEAVILY from this book.

[maine_raptor]

93. Go ahead and add them yourself, DVD

The reason I did not include them is that both are highly speculative and both have HEAVY ties to French Intelligence. In fact, many have thought that Farewell America was De Gaulle's response to the WC and written by French Intelligence specifically for Jackie Kennedy.

[DemonFighterLives]

53. Right! nt

:silly:

[Zhade]

60. "Not that bad"? It's literally IMPOSSIBLE.

NT!

[deep_thwart]

29. Only Arlan?

How many other Senators and Representatives have made decisions, both recently and over the past 30 plus years, having passed laws that seem to have provisions embedded in it that could be construed (or misconstrued) that at any given time, the American Public would become a potential enemy of our own government?

How about Congress' License To Lie? (Reader's Digest some years ago).

Pressure and Money run our government, not the people.

I find it ironic that Big Business Lobbies seem to own much of what our government does, and they are STILL moving out of this country. Now, I ask you: How does that work?

Recently, over the past 3 or 4 years, I've e-mailed my Congressman and both Senators > and keep getting pre-response form letters. Yes, I really feel * represented. (*effectively intentionally left out)

[wicket]

30. Whoa, never knew that!

VERY interesting. Kicked and nominated.

[trackfan]

33. Yes n/t

[WinkyDink]

45. In a word,

Yes.

[Oeditpus Rex]

47. Spector and Gerald Ford

created the Single (or Magic) Bullet Theory, according to "High Treason" by Robert J. Groden and Harrison E. Livingstone (Conservatory Press, 1989).

[hopein08]

48. Self-delete

accidentally hit "post reply" twice.

So sorry.

[hopein08]

49. Specter didn't get into the Senate until 1980....

Other than that, all the facts seems to be just as I saw. Specter was a Philadelphia lawyer at the time he became chief counsel for the Warren Commission.

Here's a link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlen_Specter

[hvn_nbr_2]

61. You beat me to it...

and you spelled his name right too!

[shance]

74. Thank you.

Appreciate the correction.

[Fight_n_back]

52. After 9-11 Spector tried to prove

that one plane hit all three buildings.

The members of the Warren Comission all did very well for themselves, ya know, like Gerald Ford....but its probably all a coincidence.

[melody]

94. lol - good one n/t

[CrackpotAmerica]

57. I had the chance to tell him that in person. . .

I used to park cars for a living. . .

On the night that Russel Byers was stabbed to death after leaving the party I was working,
( http://www.citypaper.net/articles/121699/news.om.russell.shtml ) I had to pick Spector's drunken wife up from the ground.

He stood there and watched me and another valet help her and when she was back on her feet, he did not give us the slightest gratitude, which pissed me off to no end.

So, I looked him dead in the face and said "magic bullet, my ass." I know it bothered him because he took off faster than a bullet bouncing of a secret serviceman's wrist.

Ironically, he is still my Senator. . . DAMMIT!

And By the way, Byers was a great guy. . . Gave me a 5 dollar tip! I was shocked to hear what happened to him.

Kicked!

[glitch]

63. It's lovely to think about this happening to him wherever he goes.

Kind of like verbal shunning. Everyone, no matter who he comes into contact with, letting him know they know he's a corrupt fascist liar on his own unalterable path to hell.

[shance]

71. that's a cool story CA***

thanks for sharing it.

[CrackpotAmerica]

78. I Have A Million Of Them

For some odd reason, my life has been quite interesting. . .

[CrackpotAmerica]

79. I Have A Million Of Them!

For some odd reason, my life has been quite interesting. . .

[Zynx]

59. Yes.

I always thought he was a little young to be involved in that.

[William769]

62. He is also the man that stopped the Repukes

from getting a simple majority to Impeach Clinton.

[shance]

67. Really? Could we see some facts with that assertion?

That's not what I remember.

Please provide some links with such a statement.

[hopein08]

75. Here are some links...

Specter's statement in the record...
http://www.australianpolitics.com/usa/clinton/trial/statements/specter.shtml

Proof that the neocons were mad at him...
http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/1998/printer_105.shtml

Actually tally of how the senators voted...
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/02/12/senate.vote/

As I remember hearing it, though I'm still looking for a link on it, Specter tried to vote present but Rehnquist said he had to cast a vote so he voted "not guilty."

Hope this helps!

[William769]

80. Thank you for providing the links.

[David Zephyr]

70. Yes.

Just a few of the Warren Commission:

Arlen Spector
Gerald Ford (who later became President after promising to pardon Nixon first)
Allen Dulles (who orchestrated the assassination of world leaders including our own President)
Hale Boggs (who may have helped murder Huey Long and father of Corporate Media Whore Cokie Roberts, the darling of ADM.

[louis c]

77. I Knew since I was 15 years old

I was born in 1952.


Did you know that Cokie Roberts' father was a member of the Warren commission?

as was Gerald ford?

[maine_raptor]

85. For all interested...a booklist

See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4755530

[xxqqqzme]

88. Yes. I do not understand

how anyone coming up w/ that particular absurdity can hold an elected office. He should have been laughed out of the country.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

95. Gaeton Fonzi interviewed Spector about the magic bullet theory

The Warren Commission, The Truth, and Arlen Specter
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/The_critics/Fonzi/WC_Truth_Specter/WC_Truth_Specter.html

(lengthy but a worthwhile read)

[Minstrel Boy]

96. Glad to see you post that.

Fonzi's The Last Investigation is a must read for anyone who cares about history, justice and truth.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

105. for cheapskates who don't mind damaged eyes ;)

the 'original manuscript' of "The Last Investigation" is available online:

http://cuban-exile.com/doc_001-025/doc0019a.html
http://cuban-exile.com/doc_001-025/doc0019b.html

[pitohui]

100. sure it's his only claim to fame

who outside his own miserable state would know or care who he was if not for his infamous work on the warren commission

[gauguin57]

102. Yeah, I remember when I saw the movie "JFK," in Pennsylvania ...

... and they mentioned Arlen Specter's name in connection with the magic bullet, the whole audience cracked up laffin'

[truebrit71]

111. I believe that Specter was in such a huff he was considering suing...

...Oliver Stone, until someone pointed out that he would lose...

[pitohui]

116. filmed in covington louisiana!

oh god, i hope arlen don't hold a grudge