Thanks to the last 5 years of Bush, I am now a born again agnostic

[Ishoutandscream2]

It's sad that one man and his "base" could turn me this way, but they have. The constant use of Christianity to support their barbaric agenda absolutely sickens me. Everything I had learned from the Christian faith taught me the opposite of what these sicko's believe.

I know. You can say they aren't true Christians, and there are some wonderful, spiritual people on this board who walk the walk. But I can't deal with this anymore - how on earth could God let this creature and his followers into our mist? Maybe I'm being a bit ethnocentric, but I believe Bush belongs in the list of names with Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc.

I want my country back. I want ACTION. Everytime something happens, this administration calls for prayer and yet rarely lifts a finger to those who are in need. No more praying, Bush. ACTION!

I was thinking about the numerous threads comparing Bush and Hitler. While Hitler was raised a Catholic, he hated the idea of Christianity. Yet, he always talked about "Providence" and how "Providence" guided him in his decisions and protected him for his life's work. You see a pattern don't you? Bush talks and listens to God, and follows his commands with conviction. Once God has spoken, and George has made his decision, there's no turning back. No nuances, no changing something that is horribly wrong and correcting it. And the fucker still sleeps well at night. Yes, even 9/11 was an "Act of God" and this was a message from God that Bush was to be a war president. He was called by God to be our leader in this time of crisis. Hitler would say the same thing concerning "Providence" as his forces murdered millions of people. It was the will of "Providence."

Well, I have rambled and digressed. I can't recall having such a deep-seeded hatred toward someone. But I truly believe Bush has made it impossible for my children to have the success I have obtained. He is ruining our great nation, and doing it in the name of God. I'm sickened by the whole thing. I believe I'm a born again agnostic.

[blonndee]

1. I am too. It's a painful process, losing your faith.

I'll never get it back. These "christians" have opened my eyes to a god whose plan it is (or who "allows") hundreds of thousands of people to die in a tsunami; whose plan it is (or who "allows") people to be abandoned to die of thirst and heatstroke or drowning; whose plan it is (or who "allows") hundred of thousands of brown-skinned Muslims to die for American oil companies because it's REALLY a "spiritual war."

I'm sorry you've gone through it too. I've become much more intolerant than I would like toward christians, and I know not all are that way. But sadly, most are. They've hijacked christianity just like they hijacked democracy.

[Ladyhawk]

23. It's very painful to lose one's faith, but it can be a growing experience,

too.

I was an agnostic for years, then a combination of experiences made me decide there is no god. I'm an atheist now. It's freeing, but it hurt like hell.

Check out Leaving the Fold by Marlene Winell. It is helpful. You learn you aren't alone.

[blonndee]

29. Thank you for the link on the book.

I can feel the "freedom" coming. When the tsunami happened and later that spring when my beloved grandmother died accidentally this spring, I had already stopped believing for quite some time. It actually helped me, because when I stopped questioning "why" things happen and started to honestly believe that sometimes (or maybe always) there IS no why, I felt peace. I would have thought it would be the other way around.

Now I hope that in time, when I hear the word "Christian" or someone says they'll pray for me, or attributes this or that to "God's will," that I won't get that sick, clenchy feeling in my stomach and an anger that literally pounds in my heart and head.

Does that go away too? Maybe it has more to do with how the religion is being so misused. I sometimes think I'm angry and hurt because I feel misled as well as abandoned by a god that I really don't think was ever there in the first place. I can say I DON'T believe in god, and I don't. But the wish to believe is still there, and that's the hardest part.

Wow, human drama. Heh. Well, it feels good to get all that out. =)

[Ladyhawk]

36. That "icky" feeling you get around "Christians"?

I feel it, too, and I've tried hard to get rid of it. My counselor thinks I'm obsessed. Maybe so. :( Part of the problem is that my family is filled with "Christians" like these. It's hard. :( :( :(

"I can say I DON'T believe in god, and I don't. But the wish to believe is still there, and that's the hardest part."

Yes, I know the feeling. It's also part of the problem. Beware especially of that you wish to believe. :( I also feel betrayed because it was pounded into my head as a child by family, by church, by school that god was real, god loved me and I would live forever in heaven. To learn this is a crock of shit is hurtful and the sense of betrayal, enormous.

The book helps me by simply reaffirming what I've felt. I don't feel alone.

[blonndee]

38. Thank you again.

I will get that book, as soon as the semester is out. HEY! Maybe I'll ask for it for Christmas! ;)

It's good to read that the "sense of betrayal" isn't some weird psychological thing that's only my own. I'm sorry that you've also had to experience it (sounds like our religious upbringings were similar) but glad to know you've made peace with it. I believe I will someday too.

[erinlough]

24. At first it was painful, now it is freeing

it could be that I was part of a very punishing religion. I feel that not having to live with a "vengeful God" is absolutly great. I was at the breaking point BG (before George) and I have to admit listening to any Christian now confirms it for me.

[PatsFan2004]

2. Remember when Jesus walked this earth, the Romans nailed HIs

hands and feet to a wooden cross for no real crime and yet, He forgave them. When I consider my own thoughts and lusts, I am grateful that God is forgiving based upon Jesus's death and resurrection.

Since Jesus considered our sinful thoughts as significant as sinful actions, I find myself no better than our so-called leaders. When I hear of a terrorist bombing, I want to skin these people alive and so on. So in my thoughts, I am no better than those who actually do these things.

[Modem Butterfly]

6. It was easy for Christ to forgive the people who crucified him

If you accept the Biblical account of Christ's existance and life, forgiving them was the easiest thing he ever did. Christ was a god made flesh, and dying was the only way to return to total godhood. The people who executed Christ did him a huge favor.

[immoderate]

34. Pull yourself together!

Bad thoughts are as significant as bad actions? Did you actually think about what you are saying? Why would you believe this obviously false statement? Because some legendary demigod was supposed to have said it? May be he was having a bad day.

When you consider your own thoughts and lusts, and receive the forgiveness of god, how do you tell the difference between that and narcissism?

--IMM

[Booster]

3. I, too, have lost faith that there is a God because if there truly were

a God, both Bush and Robertson would have been struck right between the eyes with a lightening bolt by now.

[Hardrada]

4. I was one before and basically still am

but find it helpful to study Buddhism which does not require a belief in a patriarchal God figure. I think all belief systems require thought and introspection but the Xians of our time of the Bushbot variety seem to have checked in their minds someplace and haven't gotten them back.

[Ishoutandscream2]

5. I still think a form of Karma exists

I hold hope to that.

[devinsgram]

41. I am a firm believer in Karma.

I know that eventually this evil administration will pay a very heavy price for what they have done to this world. I also know that I should not be looking forward to it, but I am. For that, I will have my own Karma to pay.

[SnowGoose]

7. Bush said that Christ "changed his heart"

Not a very good advertisement, IMHO.

The Bible teaches that human beings are fundamentally evil, and every "imagining" of our hearts is evil.

Oddly, in the aggregate, the very best I've seen of human beings is disproportionately people who make no claim to have God in their lives, and the very worst and most hateful I've seen are disproportionately filled with people who insist that God lives in their hearts. Association doesn't prove causality, but makes you wonder.

[mzteris]

8. you're not the only one

I find myself rejecting EVERYTHING about Christianity because of the putrid stench of fundaMENTALism. It's like, if they have anything to do with it, it must be WRONG.

It's really hard when you've been raised your whole life to believe in God. It makes for an interesting - and distressing - mental dichotomy.

[blonndee]

11. Ooh, we should start calling them 'mentalists... heh heh.

[Zynx]

9. I think Bush is like Hitler in that he doesn't believe it, but uses it.

The Nazis spewed Christian stuff left and right, but their leadership was either passively or actively atheistic.

[onager]

18. Thanks for the gratuitous insult...

From your friendly neighborhood atheist.

Why not say the Nazis were "non-Xian," instead of trying to foist them off on us atheists?

Of course, that's not true either. And you'll have a whale of a lot of explaining to do if you try that one. Like why was Hitler still invoking Gawd, EVEN IN HIS LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT.

And if the leadership was "atheistic," why was the Vatican the very first "state" to recognize Hitler's regime in the Concordat of 1933? (A deal put together by the Papal Nuncio to Germany...who just a few years later became Pope Pius XII.)

Wouldn't the Vatican be more interested in fighting those Evil Atheist Nazis than in making deals with them?

I know some people call this "atheist whining" and the like, but frankly I don't give a Cheney. I'm sick and tired of constantly being reprimanded for "Xian-bashing" on DU, when the believers don't even stop and think for a micro-second before they bash atheists...as the above post demonstrates in spades.

[Modem Butterfly]

20. One of the first things Hitler did was to make school prayer mandatory

Doesn't sound very "atheistic" to me, either passively or actively.

[Modem Butterfly]

19. Passively or actively atheistic?

What does that even mean?

[trotsky]

39. On what do you base this claim?

Could you please provide a citation, or else retract this gratuitous slam against atheists?

[javadu]

10. I Have Gone All The Way --- Count Me in with the Atheists

I am a graduate of two conservative religious colleges. It is embarassing to put that on my resume.

My one criticism of DUers (please keep in mind that I love all of you very much), is that many expect you to be a liberal your entire life. In other words, politicians who were "formerly conservative" are not trusted. I am a former conservative, but I am truly and sincerely a liberal now. Because that is my experience, I am more forgiving than most people on this board of others who were "formerly conservative." I know this is slightly off-topic, but the overall theme is personal change and this is one my pet-peeves. Sorry!

[immoderate]

35. Hang in there.

Many DUers were once something else. I'm surprised that you found people expecting you to be life-long. If so, I'm sure that for every one of those, there are many here who love a good conversion story.

Same goes for our widely reknowned, lavishly acclaimed, and highly esteemed Atheists and Agnostics Group, where there are no sinners.

--IMM

[Cleita]

12. I was an atheist and now I am an agnostic because his

administration has made me believe in Hell and the Devil.

[tlsmith1963]

13. Oh, I've Been One For Awhile

The Christians don't realize they are turning so many away from their faith. It's because they don't practice what they preach. They claim to be so loving & tolerant, but they aren't. Forget them.

Tammy

[PatsFan2004]

15. You are so right about bad Christians. In fact, I was reading

in Revelations that God was unhappy with a certain fat rich church in Laodicea. He said, "I will spew you out of my mouth".

[pepperlove]

14. Do NOT lose faith in GOD....

over a man or even MEN who are idiots... as to God, hey, prophecy MUST be fulfilled... the anti-Christ spirit must be let loose and * is the beginning of sorrows... hide and watch it unfold.

[Discord]

21. sounds like someone drank the kool-aid.

hey, believe what ya want... but the apocalyptic stuffs gotta go. I'm not waiting for someone else to take care of business down here, that would be kinda silly like praying that this Administration might actually do something RIGHT for a change... or praying for the many dead and homeless in the South. Thats doing them alot of good right now anyways... Maybe something a little more... ummm.... REAL to help them might be a better choice... or something crazy like prevent it from having happened in the first place by improving the water pumping capabilities of a city KNOWN to flood and be at high risk for a major catastrophy... or improve the levies around the city. Or wait... how about NOT taking 5 days to even start getting aid into the area. We can airdrop soldiers have the continent away... but water and food supplies to an American city... fuhgettabout it!!!

I think theres alot of better options out there than trusting in "God" or praying, or waiting for the Apocalypse.

[pepperlove]

42. That's what makes the world go round...

people put their faith in whatever or whomever they want... it all comes out in the wash.

[blonndee]

30. What time is it?

I hear a cuckoo clock.

[pepperlove]

43. Excellent

post. :duh:

[disconnected]

16. these are rough times

ever heard the parable of the seed?
hang on even in rough times.
If we are God's children, then we must LEARN to behave like His kids.
He wants to see US reaching out and helping folks, being the change that we want to see.
I really hate to see someone lose faith because of a mere man, but we do know trees by the fruits they bear. It's the litmus test of whether someone is working for good or evil.

People are dying
Oil is getting more costly
People are losing jobs
The wealthy are becoming wealthier on the backs of the poor
& the list goes on...
NOT good fruits.

[cynatnite]

17. I struggled with christianity for years...this administration helped...

I began calling myself agnostic almost a year ago. It fits well for my beliefs plus I refuse to call myself a christian because of this brand that's been pushed by rw fundies.

[Graf Orlok]

22. Welcome to the club.

I've been a member of agnosticism (is this a word?) for about five years now (ever since I took my first philosophy class), but for different reasons than which you have described above.

I assure you, however, that if there is a God, he's not at all pleased with the "christians" in the republican party. He's got a spot saved for them in hell, in which they deserve. You can trust me on that.

[Michydem]

25. Yep....me too....born and raised a Catholic...now...i am agnostic.nt

[tom_paine]

26. With you on that one, Ishoutand scream

Bush, Hitler and Stalin are VERY similar characters.

Only in the fields of violence and racism are they any different.

In propaganda and lying...they are identical triplets.

[The Baltimore Cynic]

27. Well said!

Couldn't have thought of a better thread to start my postings here with (hi everyone).

Dunno if anyone watches the Daily Show here, but Jon Stewart last night mentioned that Pat robertson got two of his prayers answered over the past week (another supreme court justice and a town of debauchery being destroyed). And I have to tell you - if God's in Bush and Robertson's corner, hell's not looking quite as bad nowadays.

But its like mark twain once said - Go to heaven for the climate, hell for the company.

[Outer_Limit]

28. LOL

What a way to enter. From one newbie to another, welcome to DU Baltimore Cynic!

[Discord]

40. To you both...

WELCOME TO DU!!!

:party: :toast: :bounce:

[really annoyed]

31. I Hear Ya

It's hard for me to keep faith with Bush. I noticed that my strong Baptist faith took a dip when Bush won the 2000 election. But my conservative beliefs also took a dip - and I thank God for that! Maybe Bush is God's way of making me see the light!

But seriously, I'm not terribly religious anymore. I really don't care for any organized religion because they are all pulpits for the Republicans now.

[kineneb]

32. skeptical and Buddhist

skeptical that any religion or philosophy has allthe answers, Buddhist because it doesn't have a god figure, lacks a strict dogma, and is pragmatic.

I always thought that Jesus was a Buddha (teacher), or at least a Bodhisattva, but not a demi-god. I am sure the fundies would not like my opinion, but it is probably closer to historical fact.

[blonndee]

33. Ishoutandscream, here's something that might make you feel better.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,7371,1563596,00.html

[immoderate]

37. George Bush does not have the power to make you agnostic.

Bush is a hypocrite. Hypocrites are a very bad thing to be. I imagine secular hypocrites are just as bad. Not all Christians are hypocrites. There are some who could run this country quite well.

The problem is that religion nourishes hypocrisy more than any other virtue or vice. It's the perfect framework. It attracts hypocrites. No better place to ply their craft. George Bush, being the mean, greedy, venal, arrogant bastard that he is, picked it up perfectly.

If you're going to be agnostic, you should build on a basis of reason. All you need is to doubt that the words and deeds attributed to god are not true facts. And that there's no way to know.

Welcome aboard.

--IMM

[GreenPartyVoter]

44. If not agnostic, maybe liberal Christian.. we're the opposite

of what **'s faith represents.

[bluedawg12]

45. He can't change my belief- his brand of theocratic thuggery

is not christian.

Any more than his brand of conservatism is really conservative.

[Arugula Latte]

46. Congratulations!

The more people who embrace rationality in this country, the better.

Magical thinking and belief in the supernatural (rapture, angels, devils, divine long-dead humans supposedly coming back at any moment) helped get us into this mess.

[I Have A Dream]

47. Maybe you can be spiritual rather than religious. This is how I live...

my life, and it really works for me. I think that Jesus was a wonderful person, and the only real parts of Christianity, in my opinion, are the things that He/he said. I can find no fault in them.

Believe me, God is probably crying now also, and God is also a victim. :hug: