I thought DU was a forum for DISCUSSION OF IDEAS

[berni_mccoy]

Some of you wonder why I'm probing the problem of legal removal of the president (see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4691188 and http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4686404 from yesterday)

It's because yesterday, one of our Political leaders came out and said, our president is "Oblivious" and "Dangerous."

And she is still standing by those words despite blow-back.

We are in SERIOUS trouble now and we need to be CREATIVE. I don't care if I am wrong, because when you seek for an answer to a problem, you are going to find wrong answers before you find right ones. But time is short and to exhaustively research an idea by yourself would take serious time. That's what I thought a forum like DU was for.

I appreciate many of the posters who respectfully argue the wrongs of this idea, but others choose disrespectful and immature means to degrade new ideas. I am not sure why; perhaps they have nothing better to do; perhaps they are jealous. If we want a legal way to remove Bush, it isn't going to happen through impeachment even if we gain control of Congress in 2006 (repubs are too tightly locked and supreme court changes about to occur).

But what it says to me, is that there are many here who would take out their frustrations on each other instead of directing them to solve a problem creatively. I wonder if that is an indication of bigger problem with our party...

At any rate, I thank those who have had a good respectful debate. And to those who choose to be belligerent and insulting, I hope that you take a look at your words... you won't stifle my ideas, but I fear that those who are more creative than you who would be quieted by your bullying. Please be more tolerant of creative thought.

[rooboy]

1. I'm sorry, but having read one of your threads...

the idea of some sort of legal trick to get rid of George Bush is in itself childish. I honestly think you need to get a fuller understanding of how vast and ruthless the Bush crime syndicate really is.

[tavalon]

26. Well, now, wait a second

To what end does it serve? Helplessness and hopelessness. Thanks but no thanks. It may be that the OP will stumble upon something useful in his/her wishfulness. It's a better tack than hopelessness, IMO.

[Call me Deacon Blues]

2. Well, I looked at your first two posts

and saw that you got a lot of feedback, both negative and positive. Just as an intellectual exercise, it certainly is stimulating. The only thing that comes to my mind this morning is the possibility of GWB being brought up on Negligent Homicide charges, since his actions (or lack thereof) led to the deaths of probably 25,000 souls. I don't know if he COULD be prosecuted for such (seeing as that you can't sue the government, except under limited circumstances), but that's not something you or I could do. What it would take would be a District Attorney willing to put his or her career on the line to try to pull it off, and a Grand Jury that would listen. The last time anything like this was done was back in the sixties -- by Jim Garrison -- in New Orleans. And we all know how THAT turned out (which doesn't mean he wasn't on to something -- I think he was).

[leveymg]

5. Negligent homicide it indeed is. What an irony that Garrison was from NO

We should be encouraging the local and state authorities to utilize the courts to seek accountability.

There is no law against it. It's about time someone tried.

[tx_dem41]

6. Not really on topic....

but the problem with Garrison's attempted prosecution of Clay Shaw was that he ignored the obvious mob ties that were very prevalent in New Orleans. I grew up there during that time, and have read more about it subsequently. There were many rumors in the city that Garrison was in the pocket of the mob. I didn't want to believe it, but the last time I saw him in public was at a restaurant owned by the local mob "don", Carlos Marcello. He was at the table next to me, eating alone, and being treated like royalty.

Things that make you go, hmmmmmm.

[leveymg]

7. You don't become DA without getting dirty. But, some try to rise above

the muck. I think Garrison tried. Not surprised that he's still a local celebrity.

Besides, Mob-owned restaurants often have the best food. I know that's true in NYC.

[Call me Deacon Blues]

8. Interesting, and it just goes to show

that the people "on the ground" have a much better grasp of historical events than second, third, and fourth-hand sources. Which is why Bushco & FEMA are trying to limit press access.

[endarkenment]

44. "You can't sue the government"

I think that does not put individuals above the law, especially criminal law, and you certainly can sue individuals. Bush can be convicted of speeding, of dui, and most certainly of criminal negligent homicide (25,000+-? counts) for actions committed by Bush while he is president.

But the route is Impeachment, Indictment, Trial, Conviction, Incarceration (for a very long time.)

The question is are their enough republican legislators who have the integrity to do the right thing?

[glitch]

45. Reparations.

Don't forget reparations.

[leveymg]

3. Frustration-aggression. Many have reached the point where

the suggestion of some sort institutional self-fix just seems to be naive and a waste of bandwidth. This is unfortunate, but I guess it is inevitable after five years and 20,000 American lives have been wasted due to Bush's reign of terror and error.

Don't take it personally, and don't let it discourage you from posting your thoughts.

[bonzotex]

4. I always see good ideas debated here.

Sure, some people will blither and dismiss ideas without really debating. It's a big forum, however. You will get a full, wide range of responses to any idea, especially if it's contentious. That's Democracy. Unlike the Republicans we can listen to all sides and all voices. We get a better political product as a result.

[bonzotex]

9. Subtle approaches won't work. IMO

I think you have a good point in that we should use every avenue to fight this administration. Being creative in using the law is good too. I just don't think anyone will have much luck fighting a President in court; even this one.

The problem, is this Administration doesn't care about legal intervention except when it furthers their agenda. They bulldoze over most attempts by courts to reign in their worst excesses.

Another problem is the perception by many voters, right or wrong, that Democrats complain but don't have any ideas. This is idiotic, but many people don't understand the government or the court system. A flurry of lawsuits may sound like a "death of a thousand cuts strategy", or you may get lucky with one that survives on legal merits and draws attention to the malfeasance of the administration. Chances are though, people will not pay attention and the lawsuits themselves will be seen as merely political attacks.

They can stonewall lawsuits forever. Republicans control the appellate courts for the most part and the Supremes are already right wing and swinging harder right.

We have to get these folks out of power, period. To the extent we can use the legal system to do it, I say great! I think legal efforts are best directed at ensuring free and fair voting and indicting as many lower level Republicans as possible on corruption issues. Going after the President and his cabinet members in the courts won't get us there. This bastard will just pardon anybody that gets indicted, even if you could close a case before his administration is thrown out of office.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. As An Academic Exercise It Was Interesting

As a practical exercise it is futile....


I think our time would be better put to use by electing more Democrats in 2006 and wresting back the White House in 2008 than engaging in fantasies about impeaching or recalling Bush*...

[Silverhair]

17. Exactly !! NT

[tx_dem41]

21. Boorrrinnnggg....

Just kidding. Of course, you're right. Unfortunately, CTs are more fun. :eyes:

[DemonFighterLives]

11. I didn't read all the threads, but still will offer 2 cents

I think we are stuck with him and our only chance is to get the vote back. The last 3 elections have loads of funny business that not too many have noticed. If we can regain the Senate and House in 06, we will have our best chance to take down this vast right wing regime. Unless we get rid of dubby's machines (diebold) we will have trouble all the way around.
The only real way to break them now would have to be some high placed individual or a consortium come out and expose everything from day 1 of the bush crime family at risk of death.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. We're Stuck With Him....

How many presidents in the history of the republic have been removed from office involuntarily?


One, and that's because the opposition party had the votes ro do it*....




*of course he gave them plenty of reasons...

[Tace]

12. I'm Reminded Of Edison's Comment...

about discovering thousands of ways not to build a lightbulb... before he figured out a way to do it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. Isn't it more productive

Isn't it more productive to focus on what can be accomplished rather than focusing on what is nearly impossible...

[txindy]

14. Don't let them get to you

There are a lot of people here who won't discuss certain issues, even as background information about one of the thugs in the BFEE. Some want to stifle the dissemination of incriminating evidence for their own reasons, some are having knee-jerk reactions to whatever they read into the thread, and some just like to provoke. That's where that handy Ignore button comes in. ;) Although I do tend to finish out a thread before activating it. It's amazing how long an Ignore list can grow. Even more amazing is that, when revisited a couple of months later, so many of those on it have been http://www.clodtalk.com.nyud.net:8090/images/smiles/icon_tombstone.gif

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. It has nothing to do with BFEE calumny

It has nothing to do with BFEE calumny and everything to do with the nonexistent possibility of removing Bush* from office...

[txindy]

19. I'm talking in general

Not about a specific thread. There will be posters who go off on many threads for different reasons. Misunderstandings over the obvious being one of them.

[K-W]

18. This is a public forum with thousands of users.

This has its advantages and disadvantages. If you arent prepared to let some posts roll off your back, then this may not be the right place for you to brain storm.

Edit: btw, alot of the people who were rude to you, were in fact making points and participating in discussion, they were just rude as well. Desmissing your idea rudely is a response to your idea, even if it isnt a welcome response.

[txindy]

20. Very true

My favorites are those who come into a thread only to take the time and effort to post "This thread is stupid" or "Why even bother talking about this?" All the while kicking the thread and keeping it moving! :freak:

[FlaGranny]

22. It IS a discussion forum, but

you must understand, some people come to forums just to create disruption and argument. That's how they get their jollies - by annoying people. Best to try to ignore them, although that's hard to do, and I don't always succeed with that myself.

[BlueJac]

23. Easy come easy go!

Yes people get testy but there are a lot of passionate people on DU.

:dilemma:

[omega minimo]

24. This may be a place to vent and opine rather than act

is the impression from the last couple days, after the heartfelt agonizing of the weekend, we seem to have shifted right back to lots of blah blah blah and plenty of fun. Perhaps it shouldn't have been surprising that action threads were few and far between.

I have not read your threads, or opened all the comments here. I love DU and won't push it anymore. Finished yelling last night.

Will repeat:

This is the wake up call.

It is up to us to send the message, not wait for leadership, expect representation by our elected officials and demand accountability of this criminally negligent administration.

:loveya: DU

[Hamlette]

25. until you get a large percentage of Americans firmly pissed off at bush

no loop hole will work, logical or not. Conversely, once you get a large percentage of Americans pissed off you won't have to impeach him, he'll be without power (no congress = no fucking with us)

[berni_mccoy]

27. How about 60%? Both Zogby and CBS have come out with polls today

That show Bush's approval rating in the toilet.

Probably need about 75% before anything like that will be effective.

[Hamlette]

32. yeah, 60% is not nearly high enough

70% approval rating went a long way to protecting Clinton but you need to remember 50% of Americans thought the war in Vietnam was wrong as early as 1968 and it took 6 years to end the war.

[marions ghost]

28. I agree with you

for taking offense at the rudeness and belligerence of some of the responses to your idea. There is no defense for bullying behavior in open discussions. Ignore.

Far from being combative with you, I only have a response of sadness at your proposal. It seems to indicate that you have a certain naive trust in the legal system which I think is misplaced these days. Very idealistic in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Do you REALLY believe that there is a fully functional justice system in this country? Do you REALLY believe we have a system that could discharge a sitting president for serious misconduct? If so, why do you believe that?

[Sapphire Blue]

29. You might be interested in another thread...

Mike Malloy Asked Last Night...Please Respond: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4694442

[berni_mccoy]

30. Thanks.

I was starting to think I was naive, childish and an idiot. Mike Malloy must be also. :)

[Sapphire Blue]

43. Letter sent to my Rep & Senators, also Reid, Pelosi, Conyers, Landrieu...

(Based on another DUers letter: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4670912&mesg_id=4671781)

Today I write with deep sorrow and intense outrage for what was done to the people of New Orleans. Untold numbers have died in New Orleans, not from Hurricane Katrina, but from the gross incompetence and criminal negligence of the federal government and the Bush Administration.

Mr. Bush has steadily cut funding for numerous vital programs and services throughout his presidency. He cut FEMA funding; funding for which the mayor of New Orleans begged in order to prevent the catastrophic aftereffects of a devastating hurricane such as the one that we have just witnessed. Much of the catastrophic aftermath, the catastrophic flooding, might have been averted had Mayor Nagin’s pleas not been ignored, had FEMA funding not been cut under this brutal Administration.

Much of the horror occurring as a result of the catastrophic flooding was entirely preventable. A US Naval ship, prepared to assist with fresh water, food, and medical assistance, followed Katrina to shore. It sat there waiting for orders that never came. FEMA repeatedly turned away aid and assistance. FEMA turned away boats, busses, police officers, firefighters, rescuers, medical assistance, food, and water in too many separate incidents to count. Water and food assistance were withheld until Mr. Bush arrived, five days later, for a photo-op. That is criminal. It is a crime against humanity.

The failure of FEMA and Homeland Security, the agency under which it works, is well documented. Mr. Bush’s failure to fire the parties responsible for untold deaths is criminal negligence. While the people of New Orleans were suffering and dying in a living hell, Mr. Bush attended a birthday party, strummed a guitar, played golf, made political speeches, and made a stop to sell his agenda. It wasn’t until Mr. Bush began to feel the political heat that he shortened his vacation by one day. One day. Meanwhile, our fellow Americans were dying.

Mr. Bush has historically refused to fire those under him who exhibit gross incompetence; instead, he promotes them and honors them with medals. During the catastrophic aftermath of Katrina, Mr. Bush affectionately patted Michael Brown on the back, saying "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." Such a remark to a man responsible for the deaths of hundreds, possibly thousands, of our fellow Americans, so many of them poor and black, might be expected from a grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. It is reprehensible that our president would utter such a grievous insult.

We must have an independent criminal investigation, as well as a Congressional investigation. But first the safety of our nation and its citizens must be secured. The evidence that we are not in capable hands is overwhelming. Our national security depends on strong and competent leadership, leadership that does not currently exist in our Executive Office.

I urge you, I beg you to use your voice to force the immediate resignation or impeachment of the entire Bush administration.

I look forward to your response.

[omega minimo]

31. Also GreenPartyVoters thread in Act. Corps.

:bounce:

[T Town Jake]

33. DISCUSSION in those two threads you got plenty of...

...but methinks what you were really looking for is UNANIMOUS CONSENT & APPROBATION for your "creative" theories.

That's not how this, or any other similar forum works. Along with DISCUSSION we also DEBATE.

If you don't care for dissent, don't post. It's that simple.

[FlaGranny]

35. Discussion good - rudeness not. n/t

[berni_mccoy]

36. I don't mind dissent at all

In fact, on one of the threads, I conceded that I was wrong.

What I don't appreciate is being called an idiot for proposing a new idea. When people start shutting down other ideas by just calling them stupid, we lose creative energies that could be used to solve problems.

I can take criticism and even belligerence. But when we start calling people names, it becomes counterproductive to one of the roles this forum serves.

[tx_dem41]

37. I would agree Berni....

as one who criticized on that thread, I hope I was not included as one who called you names. I welcome creative thinking.

[berni_mccoy]

38. Nope you aren't, and I wouldn't call out any individuals either

But I think people need to learn the difference between calling an idea dumb and a person an idiot.

A smart person can propose a dumb idea.

I have certainly proposed dumb ideas and I'll be the first to admit it.

However, calling someone an idiot carries completely different context, emotion and maturity. I'm no frail flower. I've taken my licks before. But let's try have discourse without personal attacks. If I wanted to be called an idiot, I'd post at freeperville.

[tx_dem41]

40. I agree with everything you said.

I would also applaud you for being creative and wanting to discuss your ideas. There is way too much negativity on this board.

[cranston36]

34. IMPEACH HIM

IMPEACH HIM

[McCamy Taylor]

39. 2nd vote for IMPEACH HIM. Means get back the VOTE, get CONGRESS

Not much to discuss. Hard part will be doing it.

41. maybe mobilize massive demonstrations

and try to shut down certain white house activities. Arresting hundreds of people always makes the government look bad. And the media would cover it, if enough people got involved.

[skygazer]

42. I'm not going to be either belligerent or insulting

While I see theoretical merit in some of your ideas, I don't see them as being remotely possible. We have henceforth been unable to remove this man from office by the traditional and customary route of voting him out of it - how you propose to get the backing and support to remove him in less orthodox ways puzzles me. I simply don't see it happening and agree with others that we are better served working to elect a Dem in 2008.

However, be that as it may, I don't really understand the purpose of this thread, which seems to be doing exactly that which you accuse others of doing in the threads you attached - pointing fingers and belittling those who disagree with you. I don't see that as a particularly effective way to sway opinions.

[meisje]

46. Your living in a dream world - wake up!

A. If he were to be removed from office who would become our president, do you know? If he is not already running the country, why would he be better in your opinion?

[glitch]

47. LisaM on the Malloy thread had a good idea I thought re HR impeachment

"You'd think the Congressional slate from Louisiana might step in - they must have a fair number of Republicans who are seething right now. I know they have a Republican Senator, though he has sure been conspicuously absent."

They certainly have cause.

[Usrename]

48. Although I agree with the purpose of this thread, I am not very pleased

with it's effects. Our Constitution makes the removal of a President a political exercise. I believe that he must be removed and if we can get behind a unified message he will be removed. How long this will take depends on the will of those that oppose him. The grounds are there to remove him now. The recent photo ops in the disaster area were seen by the entire world. His party cannot possibly support this behavior. It would be political suicide for many of them. Never before has a party impeached it's own President. To force them to do so will be difficult but the message is clear.

Subject: Abuse of Power

Abuse of Power is a High Crime. Redirecting rescue first responders to be stage dressing for his dog and pony shows in the middle of the disaster was a disgrace. Abuse of Power. I defy you to give me a hypothetical Abuse of Power that would be more hideous. He has disgraced the office and the nation and "We the People" are responsible for his removal.

Political message: he is either more concerned about his photo op and his image than the saving of American patriots, or he doesn't have a clue and is a puppet.

[stevietheman]

49. Solutions (outside of impeachment)

1) Continue getting the word out about Bush -- Esp. don't let him off the hook with respect to Katrina. Our efforts--writing articles, LTTEs, letters to politicians, and talking with friends/family/co-workers--is paying off, albeit slowly. Eventually we'll reach a number where the President can't get anything done with respect to Congress anyway.

2) There's a power in asking for what you want. Everywhere you have pull... say "Bush needs to resign". If we have this message proliferated widely, it creates a "national mood" and that mood, even if it doesn't affect Bush personally, it very much likely affects the people who work for him and implement his policies.

3) Undermine government policies that come from Bush. Do anything legally you can think of to ensure that a Bush policy fails. Organize subversive strategies. Think this is a bad idea? Conservatives do this all the time--they've been subverting "good government" for ages and getting away with it. So why can't we subvert their "mafia government" and fundie churches?

4) Boycotts and general strikes-- actions to obstruct the economy or at least those economic forces (e.g., Big Oil) that support Bush.

5) Organized effort to withhold taxes--if millions don't pay, they can't jail us all. And any civil actions from the I.R.S. will just clog up the courts. Perhaps Bush wouldn't care--they'll just borrow more from the Chinese... but still, a powerful message.

6) Terrible, but last resort choices, if matters get even worse, like if Bush attacks Iran or a suspicious terror attack occurs... since this post would be removed if I said what those choices are, I'll just let your imagination run wild.

[LSK]

50. i have a wild idea, but also dangerous

The way I see it, Bill Frist would stand to gain a lot if he brought up impeachment of Bush. Many people believe he is running for President in 2008. If he were to jump to being in favor of impeaching Bush or even take it upon himself to do so, I think he would bring about a lot of support of both sides of the aisle. Right now, Bush is one hated guy and Im sure the republicans want to distance themselves of him. If Frist were to turn on Bush, Im sure a lot of Republicans would join him.

The downside to this would be that Frist would have tremendous momentum heading into 2008. He would be seen as the guy who cleaned up government by the purging of the BFEE. He would also steal the Democrat's thunder and capture the anti-bush sentiment in the country.

So I see Frist as a tool for removing Bush, but then if he succeeds, we are most likely stuck with Frist as President and then are we really any better off?

[wtmusic]

51. Creative ideas here are generally met with

"I already thought of that", scorn, or suspicion.

There are exceptions.

[omega minimo]

52. I knew you were gonna say that

:P :evilgrin:

[wtmusic]

53. you got me

:rofl:

[omega minimo]

55. Lots of special people here

Some can play banjo and bicycle at the same time.


:bounce:

[shance]

54. You are right Bernie. We have a lot of tremendous potential here, if

we would use it, and if others would not be allowed to smother it as much as they are allowed to do. We could have quite an effective and positive influence. In many ways we do, however I do believe it could be further encouraged and promoted. I have seen moments here that have inspired incredible and vital discussion. There have been very constructive, powerful moments here.

I believe it would benefit everyone if discussions were encouraged and less scoffed and ridiculed.

Thank you for offering your creative ingenuity. It is appreciated.

[omega minimo]

56. Otherwise call it a "scoff board"

"Ridicule board"

"I believe it would benefit everyone if discussions were encouraged and less scoffed and ridiculed."

here's the problem:
:hide: