School busses in New Orleans were all under water...

[wake.up.america]

that is what I understand. The freepers are up in arms, claiming Ray should have used these busses. What are the facts?

[chalky]

1. Tell these freepers that the buses were underwater because their

lord and master put them there.

[yankeedem]

2. Who was going to drive these buses?

Where were they going to drive to?

There weren't shelters outside of LA setup to take these people.

[Mairead]

29. Anyone. They're trucks. Even I've driven a big truck (it scared me, but

I succeeded)

[JuniperLea]

3. There are no excuses

There were days to plan and nothing was done.

All buses and other vehicles should have been moved to higher ground when there was time.

[donco6]

4. Who would drive them?

All the school employees had already evacuated under the mandatory order. In my district, we lock the bus keys in a safe at night. If they'd had any thought of *providing* evacuation services for the poor, it could have happened, but they didn't. So there they sit. And they blame the mayor. It wasn't his fault at all.

[wake.up.america]

9. Thank you very much for the information...

They are all feverishly attempting to minimize Bush's vegetative response.

[donco6]

12. YES!

They make it sound so simple, but even setting up school bus transportation does take some planning! They have to be gassed up, they have to be organized - who's going where? And when we pick up the people, then where are we going? Plus, I heard the number of buses was 40. 40 buses X 65 passengers = 2,600. Still a drop in the bucket compared with what was needed! It's all a crock.

[Igel]

25. National Guard. n/t

[Roon]

5. They are saying that they should have used them

to evacuate people before the flood happened.

[Roland99]

10. I keep getting that, too. Think of this for your response:

100,000 people or so needed to be evacuated.


The Superdome evacuation started about midnight Wed. night (60 hours ago) and only 15,000-20,000 have been evac'd from there (5,000 remain)

Now, extrapolate that out to 100,000 people and they would have had to have started the evacuation sometime back around the Fourth of July. :crazy:

[htuttle]

6. Where was the mayor supposed to bus the people TO?

You need someone higher up than the mayor to handle where they go out of town, and what happens to them after that.

Also, how could he handle crowd control with nothing but the overwhelmed NOPD? You can't move a hundred thousand people onto buses out of town without a lot of crowd control (and as I mentioned above -- a destination to go to).

[1932]

7. Jabbar Gibson says they weren't underwater.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4596231&mesg_id=4596231

[Roland99]

8. I thought he stole one from another area...I doubt it was the bus compound

BTW:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4601558

Help me! :)

[jus_the_facts]

11. let freedom reign....

No mercy for what we are doing
No thought to even what we have done
We don’t need to feel the sorrow
No remorse for the helpless one

War without end
No remorse no repent
We don’t care what it meant
Another day another death
Another sorrow another breath
No remorse no repent
We don’t care what it meant
Another day another death
Another sorrow another breath

Blood feeds the war machine
As it eats it’s way across the land
We don’t need the feel the sorrow
No remorse is the one command

War without end
No remorse no repent
We don’t care what it meant
Another day another death
Another sorrow another breath
No remorse no repent
We don’t care what it meant
Another day another death
Another sorrow another breath

Only the strong survive
No one to save the weaker race
We are ready to kill all comers

Like a loaded gun right at your face

War without end
No remorse no repent
We don’t care what it meant
Another day another death
Another sorrow another breath
No remorse no repent
We don’t care what it meant
Another day another death
Another sorrow another breath

Attack
Bullets are flying
People are dying
With madness surrounding all hell’s breaking loose
Soldiers are hounding
Bodies are mounting
Cannons are shouting to take their abuse
With war machines going
Blood starts to flowing
No mercy given to anyone hear
The furious fighting
Swords are like lighting
It all becomes frightening to you
Know death is near
No remorse

[yellowdogintexas]

13. I SAW an aerial photo of a school bus compound that was

under water. It broke my heart to see all those busses just lying there in the water when they could have been used during the weekend before katrina hit to move people out of the neighborhoods..you know the ones who didn't have cars, or money for gasoline?


The photo was buried in one of those huge YAHOO slide show things.

[nyhuskyfan]

16. There was a Category 5 Hurricane coming...

Where is the NO mayor supposed to bring people in busses? The entire city was about to be hit by a mammoth storm. Driving people around the city in a school bus wouldn't have accomplished anything.

If FEMA came in and said we need busses to bring people to the shelters we've designated upstate and in Arkansas and Texas and Kansas or wherever, there might be a point to this. But the busses did not have anywhere to bring people.

[Mairead]

27. They could have been used to drive NW as far as possible

I suspect that people camping out in a lay-by or something 200 miles away would have been a HELLUVA lot happier, healthier, and easier for services people to reach than those same people stuffed into the stadium.

What do you think?

[nyhuskyfan]

31. Camping in a Category 5 Hurricane?

Doesn't sound much fun to me.

You have to remember that a Hurricane was coming through with 180 mile an hour winds on Sunday (when such a venture would be planned). Nobody knew exactly where the Hurricane was going to go. There would be a good chance that you would be putting people in the teeth of danger.

The best scenarios would be barracks at Military bases, inland shelters, even as far away as Kansas and Oklahoma. Or letting them stay at the Superdome -- so long as FEMA was there in the aftermath to get people out in a reasonable fashion.

[Mairead]

35. I think that was my point about driving ca. 200 miles

That's practically in Shreveport, or most of the way to Houston, or halfway to Dallas. Probably not a lot of hurricane at that remove.

[nyhuskyfan]

36. Maybe...

By the time it reaches that far inland, it will be significantly downgraded to a smaller Hurricane or a tropical storm, but even that would still be dangerous if you are outdoors. If some people get killed because trees fall on them, the government is fully responsible.

The Astrodome might have worked beforehand (not in the path of a hurricane) or LSU's indoor facility (not going to flood). Shelters set up in Shreveport or elsewhere would be a decent idea (or even just on the other side of Lake Ponchatrain, where flooding would not be an issue).

The plan for the Hurricane seemed OK (mandatory evacuation, Superdome as shelter) -- but clearly the plans for the flooding (which everyone knew would happen) were awful.

[Fleshdancer]

14. they should have been used before the storm hit

I, along with many other DUers, were yelling about this well before the storm hit. Obviously there's a logistical problem with figuring out who could drive the buses but NO needed a plan and they needed it years ago. I think the states and the feds failed NO and all the other areas that were destroyed. Logistics for something this extreme is just too much for just one mayor to deal with. He did the best he could with the resources he had.

Think about your city and your mayor. Does s/he receive the resources to be able to evacuate you and your neighbors? Scary thought, isn't it?

[Roland99]

15. Let's go over this again:

100,000 people or more needed to be evacuated.

The post-flood Superdome evacuation started about midnight Wed. night (60 hours ago) and only 15,000-20,000 have been evac'd from there (5,000 remain)

Now, extrapolate that out to 100,000 people and they would have had to have started the evacuation sometime back around the middle of August.

Also, from that post in this thread, in some districts, the keys are locked in a safe and that most of the city employees were already ordered out.

The NOLA emergency plan doesn't include public transportation out of the city, only public transportation to temporary shelters which is exactly what they offered.

Also, remember, Mayor Nagin was requesting outside assistance to provide security for the process and received little or none. The city, itself, cannot provide security to escort and control 100,000, esp. when they just evacuated 80% of the city.

[Fleshdancer]

18. the point of my post was that the state and the feds failed NO.

I believe Nagin did the best he could with what he had and I certainly don't blame him for how the evacuation was handled.

[Roland99]

21. Gotcha

[DoYouEverWonder]

17. I was one of the ones screaming, yes they should have used the buses

but it isn't the mayor's fault. It is the fault of the Dept of Homeland Security who are the ones who were supposed to have a plan and to implement it. The mayor had his hands tied begging for help. They would tell him help was coming but it never came. He did his best under impossible circumstances.

[Fleshdancer]

19. I think we're saying the same thing for the most part

My anger is directed at the State and the Feds.

[Igel]

28. FEMA was supposed to help NOLA and

Louisiana with developing evacuation and disaster plans.

That's FEMA's primary task *before* a disaster hits; the rest is pretty much recovery and coordinating between state/local and federal efforts. The assumption is that the NOLA administrators know NOLA better than a bureaucrat in DC, and are more aware of changes to the city and state than somebody in DC. The same goes for Eugene; Los Angeles; Vacaville; both Rochesters; Pocatello; and my home town of Edgemere (for which Baltimore County is responsible). I'd hate to think of the bureaucracy in DC needed to update each plan for every major city and every little berg each year.

Blanco referred to the state's evacuation plan; I infer that it existed. NPR interviewed a guy who worked with NOLA administrators on their evacuation plan, so I infer it existed. I have to assume that FEMA helped with those; if not, and they were asked, they goofed; if not, and they weren't asked, they did as expected. FEMA does not impose plans, unless they're told or asked to do so.

The plans assumed everybody had a car, and those that didn't would get out some other way. The assumptions were of long standing: they didn't suddenly arise late last Sunday afternoon. They weren't just Blanco's and Nagin's; but to say that Nagin had no say in the plans, when he's been mayor for more than 6 months, is not justifiable.

[chalky]

20. Tell them, "NOW is not the time to be pointing fingers!"

:sarcasm:

[applegrove]

22. Mayor was offered school buses from outside the city. From local

communities in districts that were not effected. He said he said "hell - no! This is a national crisis - get me travel busses". You know..the things with toilets in them so the buses would not have to stop every 30 mintues so people could "evacuate" themselves or their kids on the long road to Houston.

[Spazito]

23. He was absolutely right, the offer was made re the evacuations

after the hurricane and well after it became a full-blown humanitarian crisis. School buses can hold 60 children, which means about 50 adults. The number of buses needed would have been impossible to find when you consider there were over 100 thousand to evacuate.

[applegrove]

24. No - they found them and were gathering them up. Mayor's point

was that this was serious and people deserved the proper buses to take them away. Can you imagine the traffic jam with 1000 buses stopping every time someone had to go pee? Or were the people just supposed to go in the aisle? Were children supposed to "hold it"?

[Spazito]

26. Yes, that too, but my point was there were not enough buses

even if he had accepted the offers that came in.

[applegrove]

30. Any number of buses would be a start. But he assumed the military

was on its way and that the President & FEMA had powers and would use them. There is a law that says the President can commandeer whatever the hell he wants. He can demand jumbo jets if he wants.

You should never assume anything when dealing with the nefarious. You should put everything in writing. Or tape your conversations.

[Spazito]

33. LOL, they never say much until after their abject failure become

PUBLIC and then they cannot keep all their lies straight.

[alcibiades_mystery]

37. That was after the flooding, not before

The issue of the buses before the flooding, while important, is less important than the right wingers make it out to be. Even if Nagin had 200 buses, he could only move 10,000 people, tops. There were 25,000 gathered at the Superdome alone. Who decides, on Saturday morning or Sunday afternoon, who gets a seat and who doesn't? Imagine the chaos then. The plan should have called for the evacuation of the hospitals by schoolbus, but that would reduce the ratio of evacuees to officials significantly, since you'd have to load on equipment and health care professionals in addition to patients: nevertheless, this should have been done. That is what Nagin can be faulted for, though obviously these plans should have been developed in conjunction with the feds and the state.

[Mairead]

32. PHOTO of the NO school dist busses under water in their lager

They could have been used for evacuation (60 to a bus) but were left to drown instead. I count 100. That's 6000 people per trip. How many people could they have shuttled to safety between the time the danger became clear and the onslaught?

[markus]

34. You can't but the buses on the elevated freeways

or you interfere with the evacuation. I remember have a conversation with someone from RTA a very, very long time ago when my partner worked there in a senior capacity, during the Dean Bell era.

By the time you can move the buses to elevated storage, you need the drivers to be taking shelter somewhere (or leaving themselves).