Give me a good argument on gas prices please!

[Hello_Kitty]

I'm having dinner with a group of friends tommorrow and one of them is a knuckle dragging freeper who likes to argue with me. I've got my Iraq war shit down pretty good but I need a good zinger about how the Chimp admin. bears a lot of responsibility for current gas prices to shut him down. Unfortunately, economics and oil issues are not my forte so can one of you macro-econ geniuses help me out here?

[madeline_con]

1. DUH-bya and Cheney are making a profit...

on it. They won't do a thing to lower the prices.

They'll blame terra and the war.

[GetTheRightVote]

2. Shell's profits went up 63% as well as other oil companies

Opec has stated openingly that they are the cause of the higher prices on barrels of oil, the refineries are not really having problems, even the gas station owners are saying that it is the oil company's greed driving the prices higher and higher. I hope this is enough for you, these are all facts mentioned in various newspapers and reports across the country, good luck, read over DU and other web sites.

:kick:

[Hello_Kitty]

5. Thanks for the input. And I AM cramming on it this evening.

I really want to rub this jerk's nose in it. He was sooooo smug after the election. And he drives a HUGE gas-guzzling pickup. :evilgrin:

[dweller]

15. HUGE gas-guzzling pickup?

you should offer to pick him up for the showdown.

that would be the best smakdown.
dp

[Old Hickory Fan]

16. ENERGY BILL loaded with corporate welfare for the oil

companies while they are having the greatest profit period in history.

The entire problem can be summed up as a failure - disengaged from the realities of the oil problems known full well since the 70's.


Failure to be proactive isn't always solved by late reaction.

BTW - I figure China and more cars will come up, but does it make a rational position that the total number of cars on the planet have doubled in just four years? Nah...................

[friesianrider]

3. Oil companies STILL posting RECORD profits.

[moondust]

24. And their raw materials cost more than ever before.

It doesn't add up. I'd call it GOUGING.

And nobody in the Bush administration is investigating or even hinting that the oil compnies may be the force behind the high prices. Nope, they look the other way.

Of course the corporate media are not doing their job again either, as usual.

[FloridaPat]

4. One of the first things they did in 2001 is was get the the gas mileage

requirement and research and put the money into fuel cells. Cheney told everyone they did it that way because "convservation doesn't work". Since 1969, I've heard that we must reduce our independence on foreign oil. We haven't lifted a finger to reduce our independence. It's a gov't lie.

[Pierogi_Pincher]

19. Is Bush America's biggest guzzler?........

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050824144409990003&_ccc=6&cid=842

:grr:

[newyawker99]

29. Hi Pierogi_Pincher!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Pierogi_Pincher]

31. Thanx for welcome...

LUV NY!;) (I miss New England, my stompin' grounds.)

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. We are fighing a war

in Iraq and yet we are paying an arm and a leg for gas.

Seems to me this is argument enough to shut him up. Shut my RW friend up today.

[noahmijo]

7. Truth it goes beyond just Dubya

First off understand this: OIL IS AN INELASTIC good.

This means that regardless of the price people still buy it near or around the same manner regardless of how high the prices goes up.

Therefore the higher the price the higher the revenue and profit.

We have two oil moguls for pres and vice pres.....what have they got vested in making oil prices tumble?

Secondly the truth is the high prices are due to more than just bushit's war; China's massive consumption, limited supply, and of course YOU

well not YOU maybe but anyone who drives on a regular basis especially those who drive in vehicles that are gas guzzlers.

That should start you off.

[DefenseLawyer]

21. If higher demand has caused the price of gas to rise

and therefore the price of crude to rise, then how can you explain record profits for the companies that buy and refine crude oil? If the price of gas were truly reflective of the price of crude, wouldn't their profits have remained the same? In a simple hypothetical, let's say crude is at 20 dollars and gas is at a dollar and the oil company makes 10 cents a gallon wholesale. If the price of crude doubled and cause the price of gas to double, wouldn't their profit still be 10 cents? But it's not, profits have risen with the price of gasoline, which means that the extra money at the pump isn't all going to pay for crude. maybe I'm wrong, I'm just a caveman, but i can't make those supply and demand numbers work.

[jbm]

8. responsible dems..

(Carter and Gore come immediately to mind) told us years ago that we needed to truly fund research for alternative fuels and an energy policy that made us far less dependent on the mideast. If the repubs wouldn't have insisted on remaining dependent on oil, the whole world would look differently right now. The new technologies that I truly believe we would have developed would have led to a booming economy, the environment would have been protected, and we could rule through the middle east through economic blackmail if it was necessary. Plus..no money flowing to the middle east means no money flowing into the pockets of terrorists. We could have done all that..but instead we did it Georges way and now we're fucked.

[Old Hickory Fan]

9. Minimum wage buying power is close to 2 gal an hour

if and when we get anywhere close to 1 gal an hour then look out below bigtime for the economy.

When Clinton was in office those on minimum wage could buy up to 4 gallons an hour. Now consider rent, utilities, health care, food, clothing, education costs, entertainment, federal and state taxes etc...Do you know of anything that is truly cheaper now than it was four years ago?


My point is basically that the less fortunate among us get the squeeze first BUT they are the canaries in the coal mine. Reminds me
of a house on stilts and they are the stilts at the bottom of the so called "trickle down" which is a blizzard of despair right now.

[Burried News]

10. Just print out this picture and hand it to him.

[Hello_Kitty]

13. Great book!

I'm pretty much going with the "who's benefitting from these gas prices?" angle at this point. I'll definitely recommend that book to him.

[HKTech]

11. Oil is too complicated...

Just tell him China is being nicer to Chavez.

[newyawker99]

30. Hi HKTech!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[baron j]

12. Print out one of these images of Dumbya holding hands with

the Saudi Prince Abdullah, and give it to your creeper--I mean freeper:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=bush+holding+hands&ei=UTF-8&imgsz=all&fr=FP-pull-img-t-174&rs=more

[Old Hickory Fan]

14. Take pocket dictionary with you and turn to "G" for GREED

ask the freeper which part he/she doesn't understand. Ask them to explain it you like a six year old :-)

[firefox]

17. Ask him questions

When do you think we will reach peak oil?

What do you think the instability caused by US war and threats of war is doing to the price of gas?

What do you think the price of gas will be in a year?

What in the hell are we going to sell to the world to pay for all the oil we import?

And find out if he knows what MTBE is. There is a good chance the cluetrain passed him by on that.

Ask him if he thinks gasohol needs immediate implimentation and how much does it cost to produce a gallon of ethyl alcohol?

Ask him if he believes the government should provide heating fuel to the poor?

Ask him why hybrid cars do not come with a means to charge the battery at home in order to save oil?

Ask him why SUVs got tremendous tax breaks and not cars that were economical on gas.

[wli]

18. Enronization of the gasoline market n/t

[Old Hickory Fan]

20. Attention! Maintain the position!

Mouth shut and wallet open............

[rman]

22. any reason as long as it's not peak oil.

right, guys and gals?

[tkmorris]

23. I hate this kind of reasoning

Look, I really don't want to be a jerk, but I think this form of argument is symptomatic of all that is wrong with politics in this country.

You say yourself that economics and oil issues are not your forte but you want our help to formulate an argument that proves a given conclusion, i.e. that it is Bush's fault. The last thing in the world I want to do is defend Bush, but how on earth do you "know" it's Bush's fault in the first place?

This is exactly why you can't ever prove anything to a true-blue Freeper. They KNOW everything bad in America is the fault of Clinton and the Democrats. You can utterly dismantle their arguments for why that is so but it never matters because their arguments were never based on rational analysis in the first place, just a dead certainty that they are right and we are wrong.

It's no better for us to do it than it is for them. It turns out in this case that a rational argument can easily be made to pin a large part of the fuel prices elevation squarely on the Bush administration but that isn't the point. The point is that you have reached that conclusion without any basis for doing so.

I really don't think people have a love of truth anymore. So many of us have a whole set of beliefs, things we take as a given, without any real reason for believing them except that we want them to be true. Religion is rife with people like that (although there are rare birds that actually have put some thinking into it) and trying to discuss their reasons for their beliefs is an exercise in frustration. Sports fans often engage in this behavior as well. Was that last pass complete? The Redskin fan is dead certain that it was, but the Cowboys fan is equally vehement that it was not. It isn't just friendly banter either; they really BELIEVE it.

Look around you as you drive to work in the morning. The roadways are alive with assholes, cutting in and out of traffic, not letting you on to the highway, tailgating, you name it. Everyone around them knows they are assholes, but they....... don't. They think you're the asshole.

Look ccbombs, you might feel like I really am teeing off on you here but please know that isn't my intent. It's just that after forty years of watching the evils people do to each other I have come to believe that this particular way of thinking is a big part of the reason why. People just don't think anymore. They decide what they want to believe first and then they find reasons to justify it.

Is it Bush's fault? Look at some facts, educate yourself on the issue. Make it your "forte", THEN decide. But do it objectively.

[rman]

25. OPEC: "sweet crude production has peaked"

The problem with refineries is that there is not enough refining capacity for the heavier crude that oil corporations are switching to. Extraction and refinery of these heavier crudes has a lower yield and is more expensive then that of sweet crude.


OPEC Monthly Oil Market Report Aug.05
Refinery expansions efforts needed to match evolving crude supply - Report
Vienna, 17/8/05
http://www.opec.org/home/Special%20Features/2005/Fea082005.htm

Refinery capacity expansion plans are needed in the major consuming regions to reflect the evolving quality of global crudes if efforts to moderate crude prices and reduce oil market volatility are to be effective, according to the OPEC Monthly Oil Market Report for August. The report highlights the fact that recent production trends have resulted in a global crude slate that is heavier and sourer. At the same time, the refining sector has been slow to not only expand to meet the increasing demand but also to adapt to the changes in crude quality. The resulting constraints in the downstream sector have become a major source of upward pressure on prices.

“The recent rise in crude oil prices to new record highs — triggered by a series of refinery outages that have aggravated downstream constraints along with increased geopolitical tensions — only highlights the pressing need to enact concrete measures that would encourage rapid and sizeable investments in the refining sector,” the report said. The report noted that it will take several years to deliver the projects needed to ease current bottlenecks and prepare the appropriate refining capacity to meet expected demand. “Any delays will only continue the current mismatch between the installed refinery capacity and crude type, and undermine OPEC efforts, and those of other producers, on the upstream side to reduce volatility in the oil market,” it added.


OPEC Monthly Oil Market Report Aug.05
http://www.opec.org/home/Monthly%20Oil%20Market%20Reports/2005/MR082005.htm

also mentioned in the report:
"Brazilian oil supply is now expected to average 1.99 mb/d, a growth of 190,000 b/d versus 2004.
The performance in the second quarter of 2005 was better than expected, with the two new
deepwater fields (Barracuda and Caratinga) now reported to have reached peak production."

[MikeNY]

26. The public is sick of this corruption

The only thing you need to tell your friend is that this administration is being run by former oil executives!

They overturned 200 years of foreign policy and invaded a country without provocation to prevent OPEC from switching to the Euro and to artificially raise prices. Once the lawmakers and executives that were at Cheney's energy taskforce knew war was imminent, they knew that they would be able to cash in on this destabilizing action at some point.

Bush's approval ratings are lingering near below 40%, he is approaching the lowest recorded marks in history for a President. He has already beaten Nixon's popularity rating at the height of Watergate!

The rich and powerful start wars for the common man to fight not for any patriotic goal but because war is good for business. These are the same people running this country that own huge amounts of stock in defense contracting companies, oil companies, etc. There is no coincidence, the smoking gun has always been right in front of your face.

They are ensuring their families will endure as the ruling class for generations to come with good old fashioned war-time profiteering.

[Old Hickory Fan]

27. In two words: AL GORE

Gore told the truth and was ridiculed for it by the gluttons at the troth.

[BuyingThyme]

28. Tell 'em that the cost of domestic crude

has not changed at all since * came into office, yet domestics (we) are paying the OPEC price for Alaskan crude.