POLL: In Light of Dean's Recent Fundraising Success:

[Gringo]

(My last poll had "Clark" in the title. How will it be with "Dean" in it?)

Who do you plan to support?

[WilliamPitt]

1. Everyone vote 'Clark' just to make Gringo mad

C'mon, everyone! Show that 'cold sort of cowardice' that comes with thinking well of Clark! You can do it!

[liberalnurse]

3. I can't do it.....

Too loyal to Dean.....I'm a good Catholic girl who just can't vacillate. I tried, honest I did......

[Gringo]

6. WillPitt, since when were you this juvenile?

I've always been an admirer of yours, but geez - do you have some sort of virus?

How about suggesting that people actually vote for the person they plan to support?

Do you think that I think ill of Clark? I don't. He's a brilliant man and an accomplished general. Does that make him a democrat? No. I'm waiting to see if he turns out to be one. The "cold cowardice" is about flocking to an unknown pretty boy with no political history, way too soon. Clark has plenty of time on the campaign trail to prove himself. I hope he does distinguish himself, for our sakes if he gets the nomination.

Criminy, I expect flak from others for raising a caution flag about Clark, but not from you, Will.

All I've ever said about Clark was "whoawhoawhoa, wait a minute. Let's give this guy a bit more scrutiny before we jump on the bandwagon.

Hell, I have my misgivings about Dean, but I've seen him grow on the campaign trail, and I know he means to win, and do well by his supporters. I don't toss those months of work & donations that easily.

[WilliamPitt]

7. You said

In reference to Clark's support at DU, "And yet, a sort of cold cowardice seems to have taken root here." You said it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=241438&mesg_id=241438

You said it in the Lounge, and so it was bad form to call you on it. Frankly, it was bad form for you to post that in the Lounge in the first place, but I digress.

Now you're in General Discussion, where I feel perfectly comfortable calling you on it, because it was a crap comment. You are, again, pleading ignorance as to why this might be annoying. Fact: People who support Clark are not 'cowards.' That is the same as saying people who are ABB have 'no principles.'

What you call 'juvenile' I call 'using humor to bring a serious issue to light'

Tag. You're it. Welcome back.

[WilliamPitt]

12. Hello?

Did you leave again?

[Gringo]

13. You want a reply, but I have none.

I'm talking about a popular sentiment. For lack of a better word, I call it "cold cowardice". Just like there is a popular sentiment of democrats of rage against Bush. Does that mean Dems are by nature angry people? No. Does the cowardly, non-thinking rush to Clark mean that those doing the rushing are generally non-thinking cowards? No. This is why my responses to you are pointless: You think I'm describing people, wheen I'm simply describing a zeitgeist. If Clark is so damn great, and such a democrat, he will no doubt withstand my little gripes, and his followers may prove me wrong in the long run. I don't think I'm wrong, however, in saying that they are premature.

Why commit to an untested candidate this early if not for fear of losing with a more "controversial" candidate?

Also, keep in mind that a significant chunk of the dem base are doves who opposed the Iraq invasion. Clark participated in the media orgy of war, with nary a comment against the war or Bush. He's going to have his work cut out convincing those voters of his intentions. I don't like coyness, personally.

[Julien Sorel]

20. Cold cowardice?

You did better when you were making anti-South posts. You now have two feet firmly stuffed into your mouth. I have no idea what you do for a living, but if it doesn't work out, you can certainly get a job as a circus contortionist.

[Gringo]

22. You're wrong as hell, but

I give you brownie points for remembering my "south-bashing" jag.

Which, I have publicly repented for. Especially after discovering the most virulent racism I've ever seen on the Yahoo! boards in reference to "Beanermante" and "wetbacks" etc. To the credit of the south, I've never seen such ugliness out of there as I saw from the So. Cal. Posters. As a former So. Cal resident, I refuse to believe that those views are typival, though.

When you have a sliver of proof that the opinion I posted is wrong, get back to me. Just bitching about my lack of semantic ability doesn't make you right.

[Julien Sorel]

24. You repented for it, but you

obviously didn't learn from it, which would have been much better. You're gotten back to.

[TLM]

37. What would to call someone who is willing to vote for a republican

just because he changed the R next to his name to a D?

[blm]

39. a Deanie

;)

[TLM]

42. I have resisted putting you on ignore until now....

bu bye

[indigo32]

47. In all fairness to BLM

she only did to you what you were doing to the Clark supporters

[TLM]

49. No she is doing exactly what she has been doing...

avoiding any substantive arguments and dodging questions with snide attacks and insults.

Then whining about how unfair it is for others to attack Kerry.

She's lied over and over again about Dean, falsafied quotes, and repeated things she knows are incorrect for attack value.

time to igore.

[blm]

51. Your perception is WAY off.

I haven't done any of those things. When I paraphrased I said so. I NEVER falsified quotes. You just didn't like the quotes that showed your boy is a centrist who kissed GOP ass for 11 years, and wasn't as antiwar as he presented himself at times. Blame him, not me.

btw...The fundamentalists in my family and in my neighborhood can't bear to hear the truth, either.

Fundamentalists are like that, aren't they?

[indigo32]

58. Here I stick up for you a little bit

and you turn around and compare TLM (and I can only assume all Dean supporters) fundementalists. NICE.

[blm]

64. Only the ones who refuse to hear other points.

That is fundamentalism. There are definitely some posters who fit that description. You know it. There are plenty of Dean supporters who aren't fundamentalist in their exchanges. No problem there.

Discussion on a discussion board that reflects varying points of view is the healthy goal isn't it?

[Forkboy]

71. what happened to you blm?

I actually used to respect you,not just from here but Bartcop as well.

[SWPAdem]

57. Gee, I didn't know that registered independent=Repug

n/t

[stickdog]

44. Billy, you argue like a Republican. As much as you'd like to think

otherwise, whatever rational argument you are hinting at is not self-evident.

All it adds up to is ad hominem.

[TLM]

36. Will how very hypocritical... look what you yourself posted...

"a Dean nomination would temporarily and blessedly silence the monommaniacal, wanna-be-victim, overbearing, obnoxious, idiotic, underwhelming, whining, crybaby, pissant breed of Dean supporter I have seen all too often on this forum."


You seem to have no problem dishing out your own "crap comments" attacking Dean folks.... and odd how you attack them for the act of complaining about attacks, yet here you are doing the same thing.

Oh but I forgot, there's a different standard for CLark... right, no need for a record, no need for experience, no need to pay attention to his PNAC comments, his workign with Kissinger, or his repuke fundraising.

[einsteins stein]

70. All too often, there is a different standard for Mr. Pitt, as well

and that is called hypocrisy.

[Forkboy]

72. Will is devolving

[TLM]

35. Sorry will can't vote for Clark at all...

I don't vote for republicans.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

2. Brilliant. Let's focus on the true worth of a candidate: the bottom line

To hell with issues and resumes and experience and all other such evil distractions.
I mean...what was I thinking? :crazy:

[im4edwards]

4. if hes the wrong guy for me on multiple levels as he is...

... why would I care how much money he raised ?

Have you considered that he may have killed the golden goose by making such an issue of getting the money in this quarter ?

Go Edwards !

[OrdinaryTa]

5. Segregating Black Candidates

It happens that both Black candidates are grouped under "Other Dems running". Separate but equal, I guess.

[Gringo]

8. They are there with Lying turncoat* Joe Lieberman

and pudgy Bob Graham. Not because of race, but their relative lack of support in polls. Get them up in the double digits already, and I'll include them.

I love Al Sharpton, by the way. Saw him in person at the NAACP convention in Miami, and I never saw someone get a crowd fired up like that. He was great. Years ago, the media fawned over how "articulate" Jesse Jackson was, but there is no comparison. Sharpton is a fiery orator, and a pretty funny guy. I wish this was a different America, so that he would have a real shot. (his Tawana Brawley days would come back to haunt him if he was a real contender, though.)

*Ya like that better, PC police? This IS the guy who attacked Gore as a sore loser for taking the 2000 election to court, but then had the nerve to complain about blacks being disenfranchised in front of the Congressional Black Caucus debate. Two-faced. Disloyal to former running-mate and party. Documented.

[WilliamPitt]

9. "Jewish Joe Lieberman"?

You're two for two, Gringo. WTF is that supposed to mean?

[Gringo]

10. The comment is in reference to the fact that

JOE LIEBERMAN IS JEWISH! Guess you haven't heard. I'll go back and edit, since I'm assuming you think I'm making it a title like "Joltin' Joe DiMaggio"

The poster was whining that the irrelevant cadidates were in an "other dems" column because of race. I simply pointed out that it's their irrelevancy that has them there, not their circumcision status.

[WilliamPitt]

11. Fair enough

Now how about responding to the answer I gave you above?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

14. So Being Jewish Is Equivalent to Being a "Lying Turncoat" In Your World?

:crazy:

DTH

[elcondor]

15. Good catch DTH!

:silly:

[Gringo]

18. Good Catch? Catch what?

It's your guy Gore that Lieberman smeared after the election. As for the PC carping, I'd posit that these paticular Clarkies couldn't give a rat's ass about multiculturalism, they are just siezing on any meaningless slip of the keyboard due to their own lack of concrete reasons for supporting Clark. They just want to slam down anyone who dares question their golden boy.

If I was a Clrkie, they'd be like "Yeah, Gringo, you're right. You treated Joe (Jewish) Sharpton (Black), Mosely-Braun (Black & Female) and Graham (pudgy & white) exactly the same." But since I mention the fact that Clark has done exactly NOTHING for the Progressive/Liberal/democratic movements over the years, and they suddenly morph into PC police. You're so damn PC, why don't you campaign for Sharpton, who is ten times the orator Clark is?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

25. Your Whining About "PC" Outs You Pretty Well, IMO

"PC" is a term used by the right-wing to demonize legitimate efforts in favor of multiculturalism, which I've advocated and fought for here, and also in the real world for well over a decade.

You used the term, "Jewish Joe Lieberman" in an obviously derogatory fashion. Then you proceeded to further expose yourself by clarifying that what you REALLY meant to say was "Lying Turncoat Joe Lieberman."

I don't need to draw any more conclusions for anyone, since that pretty much speaks for itself.

Gringo, heal thyself!

DTH

[WilliamPitt]

26. Petulant reply in 3...2...1...

wah.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

28. LOL! Much More Likely He'll Pull the Ostrich Maneuver

And stick his head and the sand and hope this thread goes away and everyone forgets about his comments.

DTH

[stickdog]

55. More Republican arguing tactics. (NT)

[Gringo]

29. Bullshit.

How is "Jewish Joe Lieberman" derogatory? There are a myriad of slurs I could have used if that was my intent. Read the text, understand the context, and stop lying.

"Lying, 2-faced Joe" IS derogatory, and it's meant to be. It is NOT, however, anti-semitic. He is Jewish, and he is a liar, just like Bush is a fake Christian and a liar. Is that a smear against Christians? PC is a tool of the right that is effective because libs like yourselves either get bogged down with semantic details, or use it dishonetly in little juvenile "gotcha" games. Sheila Jackson Lee recently griped that hurricanes need to have more multicultural names. That's the exact level of idiocy you are sinking to.

And little Will: What could be more petulant than the old right-wing talk-stopper, "wah."

I'm done with this subject, because it is a strawman and a lie. Stick to the subject at hand!

[WilliamPitt]

30. Touchdown

Petulance achieved, little Gringo.

[TLM]

43. More "crap comments" will?

Seems you have no problem dishing them out, but cry like a stuck pig when taking them.


Typical.

[stickdog]

56. Not quite a touchdown. You're just saying that because you want to see

gringo quarterbacks succeed.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

31. Even in the Unedited Post, It Was Obvious That You Were Slamming Lieberman

Joe's religion was completely irrelevant, but you made it relevant by attaching his religion to your hit piece. You were clearly making negative associations, and people called you on it.

Based on your posts, it doesn't surprise me at all that you'd prefer to just walk away, all full of self-righteous fire and outrage. That's really too bad, because you would have done much better by simply apologizing, IMO.

DTH

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

33. Hey, I Thought You Were Done With This Thread?

After saying that you were, so forcefully, I find your cries of "liar, liar" quite ironic.

There is no lying here. It is a fact you said, "Jewish Joe Lieberman." It is a fact you clarified that to say, "Lying Turncoat Joe Lieberman." It is a fact that you are decrying as "PC" legitimate efforts toward racial sensitivity and multiculturalism.

Again, the conclusions that anyone can draw from all of that are clear. No lies, just facts, and the interpretations of others.

DTH

[Gringo]

34. IT IS A LIE

And I only come back to defend myself from personal smears. (and MY DEFENSE GETS DELETED!)

I said "Jewish Joe Lieberman" he is that.

I said "Lying 2-faced Joe Lieberman" he is that also.


I never said "Lying 2-faced Jew" , which is what you are dishonestly implying.

You and Will Pitt are the ones who should be apologizing for lying and character assasination.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

66. So Why Say Jewish at All, Especially in a Negative Context?

How is his religion AT ALL RELEVANT here? Especially when you go on to state that what you REALLY meant is that he was a lying turncoat? See also my post #31.

No one here is claiming you said he was a lying 2-faced Jew, so please feel free to toss up your next straw man, I'll bat that one down, too.

DTH

[TLM]

45. THis is just really sad... that you folks have sunk so low.

And for waht, to attack anybody who sees through the Clark hype and questions it instead of falling in lock step.

"It is a fact you said, "Jewish Joe Lieberman." It is a fact you clarified that to say, "Lying Turncoat Joe Lieberman.""

And it is a fact that Joe is both Jewish and a lying turn coat.

Nowhere did Gringo say that the two were the same or that one was because of the other... that little connection was created by the one making the desperate atttack on him trying to draw conclusions where there were none.

To say Gringo said that Joe is a lier or a truncoat because he is jewish, or that beign jewish is the same as being a liar and a turncoat is a fabrication. He never said anything of the kind.

[stickdog]

60. Yes, the conclusions are clear.

You like bullying smear tactics.

[stickdog]

59. Judaism is not just a religion. He was attack because he left out blacks

so he was just trying to point out his exclusion was multi-culti.

Your laser focus on this nitpick is full of shit.

[stickdog]

54. More Republican arguing tactics.

What the hell was that?

[TLM]

41. What a load of Bullsh!t

""PC" is a term used by the right-wing to demonize legitimate efforts in favor of multiculturalism"


No PC is a term used by people who do not support this language fascism and attempt to silence anybody who doesn’t agree with you by accusing them of anti-Semitism or racism or sexism or any other accusation of an ism that is arrived at solely by twisting a few words and adding connotations that are not there.

And all this because you know damn well you have no solid answers to defend Clark on the issues gringo brings up.

So attack the messenger.

[Gringo]

46. Thank you!

They only use it when it suits their agenda. They conveniently ignore such miniscule slips when it's someone peddling something they like. Bullying tactics to try to silence anyone who thinks or writes a little differently. Just goes to show the left is NOT immune to groupthink.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

67. Holy Crap!

There sure are a lot of posters named "Ignore" swarming here!

As for your laughable "bullying" remark, if your views are either so weak or so unable to withstand scrutiny that anything *I* say is enough to cow you into silence, then perhaps you shouldn't be posting on a public message board to begin with?

DTH

[stickdog]

53. More Republican arguing tactics.

PC is not just for Republicans anymore.

[stickdog]

50. No, stupid catch.

Clark is both a political cipher and a general.

That doesn't mean that generals and political ciphers are equivalent.

[Gringo]

17. NO, Being a Lying Turncoat is.

And being Jewish is equivalent to being Jewish. Remind me of just where I linked the two. The only place where the two are linked are in the personage of Joe Lieberman. Believe it or not, it is possible for him to be both, without all jews being both. Just as it is possible for a petty Clarkie to try to make a PC mountain out of a nonexistant molehill.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

68. Last I Checked, This Isn't About Clark OR Dean

It's about Lieberman and you sticking your foot in your mouth.

If you don't want to get called out by people like me and Will, maybe you should think twice before tossing out irrelevant terms like "Jewish Joe Lieberman," especially when religion is irrelevant to your little hit piece.

DTH

[Gringo]

74. Hit piece? Are you on crack?

I've NEVER slighted Mr. Clark. I'm sure he's a damn sigh nicer than a lot of his operatives here. I've questioned whether we know enough about him to endorse him. To not jump on the bandwagon automatically is not an attack. You WANT to believe in him. I am waiting to see whether or not I should.

As for Lyin' Joe Lieberman, you're right that it has nothing to do with the poll (show me how it's a "hit piece"). You and Will have failed consistently to make the phony anti-semite label stick. A neo-McCarthyite label might stick to you guys, though.

[TLM]

38. Time to drag out the antisemite attack...

All I saw was that Joe is jewish, and a turn coat... not that he's a turn coat BECUSE he's jewish.

But then that wouldn't make for as good of an attack to silence someone who won't get on your clark booster bandwagon.

[Gringo]

40. The funny thing is, I'm not anti-Clark at all.

I'm still feeling him out. I just think the Clarkies are wayyy premature in their rabid support.

[TLM]

48. I agree... and they seem to support this hyped image...

yet after looking at his history I found that the real man is nothing like the hype, and I am now anti-clark.

I will not vote for the perfumed prince even if he gets the nomination.

[SWPAdem]

61. Wah, wah, wah

Very mature.........

[SWPAdem]

16. Sorry, just can't support Dean

He reminds me of every arrogant, misogynist, doctor that I have ever encountered in my thirty years of nursing...the ones (including my ex-husband) that regularly vote Repug because of tort reform and tax breaks, while professing to support progressive causes. <sarcasm>

Back at ya, Gringo.

[Gringo]

19. I'll resist the urge

to smear all military people with phony gneralizations the way you've pointlessly smeared all doctors.

My family doctor is a great liberal who happens to support Clark, by the way. I'm going to keep working on him!

[SWPAdem]

27. What, sarcasm not allowed

Or did you just fail to read the entire post? What was that comment about "thin skin" that you made last night?

BTW, I have spent thirty years in nursing, eight of them in the Army, and I bet that makes me a pretty good judge of how a lot of doctors think, behave, and vote. Of course, there are lots of wonderful, caring docs out there. They are treasures to be preserved.

[Karmadillo]

21. In Light of Bush's Even Greater Fundraising Success, I guess I

have to vote for him. Damn. I really wanted to vote Dem this time, but they never raise enough money. So it goes.

[Gringo]

23. Geez- it's just a thread title and excuse for a poll-

don't take it so seriously.

[Karmadillo]

73. Geez--it's just a post on a thread. Relax.

And I'm definitely not taking it seriously.

:)

[Gringo]

52. RECAP

Gringo places Lieberman, Mosely-Braun, Graham and Sharpton in "other dem" box in poll.

Is accused of racism for so ostracizing 2 blacks.

Defends self that they are there with "Jewish" Joe Lieberman and "pudgy white" Graham to show that the "other dems" box is not racial but reserved for irrelevant candidates with no showing in the polls. (That also would apply to Edwards and Kucinich, but they have significant DU followings)

"Poster A" Complains that "Jewish Joe" is a slur, so Gringo complies by changing it to "Lying, 2-faced Joe", a much more accurate description of the Senator.


"Poster A" and others decide to launch endless attacks based on their fabricated implication that I am calling Lieberman a "Lying, 2-faced Jew"

All because I had the nerve to question the white-robed savior, Wesley Clark.

God it's fun to be back at DU.

I used to be a big fan of "Poster A", but he/she has been reduced to petty bullying in the name of whatever the hell Wesley Clark is.

[WilliamPitt]

62. You forgot the 'cold cowardice' accusation

'Poster A' says :hi:

[stickdog]

65. I thought it was a nice turn of a phrase.

Not quite at your published level, but ...

[stickdog]

63. It's not Wesley Clark per se.

The whole elitist Democratic political status quo is at stake here!

[patrice]

69. Dean and then Kerry if necessary - eom