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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-03 11:58 PM
Original message
Universal health care...
... taxing the rich if necessary. I want to know, hey , what do you think? Yes or No? Yes, No - one or the other.
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kayleybeth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yes
I'm not sure how it should work, but we do need this. Health care should be a right, not a privelege.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yes from Germany...
although our green/red government is about to destroy it. Same happening in GB and France. I think this is one of the foundations of civilization. We would have reached so much if every single human being on this earth, no matter, who he or she is, not matter if she works, or he drinks or she's a criminal, no matter, whatever happened to you, as soon as you're suffering, there will be help, and everyone will be treated exactly the same. In a way, it's the foundation of solidarity and being a human being, 'cause in a way, we all have experienced physical pain or feelings of helplessness and to let it happen, that people are treated different in a situation like this, excludes you somehow from civilization. I would even allow dental care for all of these social-darwinists, who are the unemployed of tomorrow, although it hurts me...
Dirk
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I was under the impression
that your consitution in Germany states that health care access is a human right. So your government supposedly is bound to make sure that everyone is covered for health care regardless of their circumstances. I did research this about five years ago, so what has changed?
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. The neoliberal pest...
and there seems to be no cure for this sickness. Starting in 2006, dental care will be a private issue in Germany and will be excluded of health-insurance. Now we have a system, where everybody is obliged to heave health-insurance, as long as he or she doesn't earn more than about 50.000€ a year. These people can choose, if they want private insurance or the public-insurance. All of the hospitals and the doctors fight to have as much private patients as possible, 'cause these bring much more money than the average patient. And they have exclusive rights, like being treated by the chief-doctor or having a privat single room in a hospital.
Our government(s) doesn't have the guts to offend the lobby-groups - like the insurrance companies and the pharmaceutic-corporations.
It's just a shame, 'cause even if our health-system is in a terrible mess money-wise, this has nothing to do with a health-care system, that's financed on solidarity or private.
Look what the health-system in France has become. I'm pretty sure you've heard about how many people died this summer. Look at what Blair has made out of the health-system in GB.
Don't have illusions about Europe. It's fully engaged in neoliberalism and destroying what once was known as the european third way.
Good health,
Dirk
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. So are you saying you would rather have our system?
I mean under our system 40% of the population are uninsured and must pay out of their pockets. A disease like cancer can devastate a family. I prefer socialized medicine where everyone gets access.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I'm with you....
but our governments (corporations and lobby groups) prefer your system!
And it's allready like this, somehow. I know families, where people got Altzheimer - I don't know the english word, it's this sickness old people get that leads to a permanent destruction of the brain - and their children have lost all of their money, houses, everything, 'cause they paid for their treatment. But now, I still would prefer our health care system. It's just so sad that while americans are discussing the advantages of our system, we are about to destroy it. And to destroy something, humanity has reached, is much more terrible, than to fight for something, you never had before. The whole world seems to be hijacked by neoliberals.
Dirk
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Don't let them get away with it.
If they destroy your system, it will be hard to get back. I worry every day about health care or not being able to get the care we need if the few safetynets we have in our system are destroyed by this present administration.

Alzheimers is what we call the disease you mentioned. You add a "t" in German. Other than that there is no difference in how it's spelled.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. They're not destroying the system
It is not possible to keep it going as it is. The alternatives are keep going and deal with a total collapse in a few years along a multi billion debt dragging down the federal treasury or reform it now (it's almost too late already). Too few people paying and too many people receiving (look at the age-distribution in Germany; it's pretty obvious) nobody likes the measures that have to be taken, but there is no alternative. The Dental Care insurance is mandatory btw and includes help for people who can't afford it. (in effect the costs are shifted from the employer to the employee)
Liberal means to accept new fact for me; many people think themselves liberal but are conservative in their hearts, always afraid of new ways and reforms.

The part with the insurances and especially the pharmaceutical industry is true however. Prescription drugs are several times as expensive in Germany as in other European nations. (Funny thing is: many blame the healthcare system for allowing the prices. That raises the question: why are the same drugs even more expensive in the USA? ). And pharmacies are protected by a shitload of regulations, banning stores with attached pharmacies, chains and internet-distribution; leading to pharmacies galore, all which are paid for by the taxpayer.
There a few more cost-factors (for example protection of privacy: the insurances have no way of knowing what a patient received, it is a common practice to visit two doctors just to be sure); in theory billions could be saved with no ill effects for the insured. Realpolitik is a different story.

In any case: the social systems will become less generous in Europe, a development that I don't like at all. However there is a difference between limited cuts and destroying a system.
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BonjourUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
37. I agree with you !
In France for example, we can't continue to have so heavy deficits of SS (10 billion euro this year !!)
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Spelled the Same Either Language
Alzheimer's is named for Alois Alzheimer, the German doctor who described the symptoms of the now-eponymous disease.

Fun English Fact: In English, "Alzheimer's" sounds something like "old timers"
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Man muß ja aber strengst bekämpfen!
The problem is the separation at €50K -- once the wealthy are allowed to separate out, it all goes to hell. The Canadians figured out how to do it correctly: anything covered by NHS cannot be offered privately.

Are there no groups trying to build support for a Canadian-style scheme?
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. of course
called "Bürgerversicherung". Due to ancient laws (signed by the Kaiser...) it is difficult to include civil servants in it.
It is a declared target of the SPD to get a scheme like that going (Schröder's party); however it is still in the discussion phase. Unlike some other plans, nobody is rushing to implement it.
Especially the Party of the Rich, the FDP, for some reason called liberal, is against any such plans.
AND: At the moment there is no way to get anything that looks like de-privatization past the conservative-controlled upper-house.
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
42. Speaking of cancer...there was a report on the News Hour last night
about the uninsured (now over 43 MILLION Americans). One person they interviewed was in his mid 20s and had no health insurance. He noticed a discolored mole and since he had no health insurance he could not get into see a doctor. He said he thought about removing it himself but that it would hurt too much. He finally got into a doctor and was told that it was malignant melanoma. The doctor even said he was one of the youngest patients to have been diagnosed with that dreaded disease.

Now he is battling skin cancer with no health insurance. He is now an activist. He may die because he had no health insurance.

My health insurance costs are going up at least 12% but trust me my salary did not go up by that much! When I mention it to co-workers all they say is, "well you gotta have it."




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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
32. Money, and the ...
.... Global ruling class. They want things a certain way, and they're going to have it that way, becasue they own the system.
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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
41. I'll bet if you did some investigation you would find
out that many of those insurance companies lobbying the European countries to abolish their universal health systems are American companies.


I wonder how we could find out which companies are lobbying various EU countries to abolish universal health care?


I have some ideas of who but cannot back them up with links or anything.




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John_Shadows_1 Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Yes, it has the smell of money ...
... they're trying to put money over people - it's a re-prioritizing in their societies.
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Cloud Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. Yes!
It is very necessary. Most of the people who are uninsured can't afford it. It won't take much to fund health care for every American. I remember Dean saying that the money from the Bush tax cuts will be plenty to fund universal health care. Certainly the 87 billion Bush wants for Iraq will fund it.

Besides, it is best to regulate it and leave it up to the government. You can't trust insurance companies.

We need to fund health care much like Europe. It is about time we get a president with a progressive agenda to finally put this through.
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Better vote for Dean then.
Although the other candidates are promising health care, it's not paramount with them. I know Dean will make it a priority because he understands so well the problems of the insured to get the medical care they need.
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Cloud Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Of course
He is my pick in the primary. Either him or Clark but I think I am sure I will go for Dean since he practices medicine he knows all about insurance and health care.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. Check your facts -- you're missing some.
Dennis's support for universal single-payer has been unwavering since long before he decided to stand for election. It was one of the issues on his House website.

Dean's plan is projected to cost an ADDITIONAL $88G p.a. AND it will still leave 10M people without healthcare. Not in any way, shape, or form the best choice. Increase the costs so that the insurance companies can put more money into the pockets of their wealthy shareholders...while still leaving people out in the cold? Such a deal!
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
36. DK has the better plan, IMHO. This is a HUGE issue for me, too.
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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
39. Kucinich's plan is far more fiscally responsible than Dean's
All the other candidates are advocating for a plan merely designed to pour more money into the same old private insurace plan. Diverting money from other projects, whether under the guise of "taking back Bush's tax cuts" or not, is susceptible to a charge by the opposition of advocating more "tax and spend" and will not appear as attractive to fiscal moderates as Kucinich's plan to use the money we're already spending to cover everyone by cutting out bloat and eliminating redundant CEOs, all trying to make themselves rich by eliminating everyone who could possibly use the insurance they're paying for.

This, along with the JAMA doctors, increased insurance costs, decreased employer pay, a slowed economy, and more belt-tightening, puts us on the cusp of making the big change that will move us to the new system.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. They're paying it ANYWAY
That's the point of Kucinich. The dollars that go into the health care industry are already enough to cover everybody. If you pay more for the uninsured by having your premiums increased, then you're already paying for the uninsured. But until we fight the idea that only profit will motivate new treatments and cures, we're stuck with this obsolete system that is causing way too much pain and suffering. Not to mention decreased productivity, for the pure capitalists out there!
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. Universal health care...
Yes!


It's an abomination that our tax $$ are going to the overthrow of govts., black ops, etc., but people who get a life-threatening illness have to have bake sales or a music benefit staged in their name to try to get money for treatment. And as an unemployed person in George W. Hoover's 2nd Great Depression, I certainly don't have health insurance; treatment shouldn't be based on one's having a job. How can the USA call itself a 1st world country if it has a "fsck-you" attitude toward its citizens?
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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
10. yes ..of course
health care must stay out the hands of the private sector..except ..boob jobs etc..once a profit motive is involved the patient becomes secondary..
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
13. Yes--and it shouldn't have to cost an arm an leg, but we've got to do it
Vote Bruan or Kucinich for universal single payer health care now.

If you think it can wait, vote for one of the other Dems.

Whichever way you vote in the primary, understand how the present system is broken and is a drain on our economy. Understand what happens to people in this system, the damage done to peoples' spirits. Make it an issue.

Saw a report on the Beeb tonight. The number of uninsured in the U.S. has risen to 44 million they said. And they showed a woman who broke her leg and waited a week before going to get help because she didn't have insurance. As a result of waiting, she damaged her leg and will need expensive surgery to correct it. Very distressing.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
15. Yes, and here's how to argue about it
Arguing about health care
eridani@scn.org

Effectively convincing people who haven't spent much time thinking about health care policy requires countering the blather that the likes of Harry and Louise have been using to make people in the US afraid that however bad the current situation is, change is too scary and government is bad anyway. The market is good, no matter what problem you are addressing. A way to effectively counter this attitude occurred to me after listening to Dennis Kucinich speak in Seattle. Talking about his universal health care plan, he said, "The market has failed!" three times, with an invitation to the crowd to join in, which people mostly did. He was, of course, preaching to the choir. This is a slogan that will cut no ice with the "market good, government bad" crowd, and it caused me to think about the various ways in which it could be taken.

Obviously, what Kucinich meant was that the market has failed to deliver health care, but the statement taken plain could also be seen to refer to markets in general. In that case, anyone who bought a computer ten years ago and has upgraded recently (and who almost certainly doesn't spend any time on being a health care policy wonk) is going to think "What on earth is this idiot ranting about?"

Clearly the markets for health care and the market for computers are pretty different. If you ask free market believers what governments should bedoing, they will often say something like "Roads and police and firefightingare legitimate government occupations because that is infrastructure." Whatwe need to do is to present a good case that health care is infrastructure too. Almost no one will argue that government should have no role in creating and maintaining infrastructure, other than a few Libertarian hard cases whose arguments are ignored by average citizens anyway. Health insurance paid for by individual is extremely expensive, and people who pay that way commonly feel ripped off because after they pay, they never see a penny of it. But if health care is infrastructure, it is analogous to police and fire protection. These services are also expensive, but do people feel that if their houses don't burn down and they don't get assaulted or robbed, the property taxes paying for these services are a ripoff? Should the expenses for these services be paid only by the people who are immediately served by them? Obviously not.

The slogan "Health care is infrastructure" beats "Health care is a right" as well. The latter makes people think of endlessly inflating entitlements that will drive the country into bankruptcy and still not satisfy everyone. Saying that health care is infrastructure not only directly and inevitably implies that health care is a right, but it gets people thinking about the issue in the most productive manner, namely as active citizens responsible for helping to determine public policy.

The reality is that health care providers and firefighters are very similar in an economic sense. Computer makers want to sell more computers, and people always want more memory, more bandwidth and more speed, but people would rather not get sick and rather not have their houses burn, but want effective help fast should those things happen. Imagine a city with three or four fire departments, paid for by dozens of different employer insurance schemes plus a few subsidized plans for the poor which a lot of low income people earn too much money to qualify for. A real mess, right? The firefighting equipment has to be duplicated several times, and the private insurance is always shifting around with employment patterns. ("Whaddya mean you won't send a truck out? My employer turned in the new insurance paperwork last week!" "I'm sorry sir, but you must still be with Company X. We don't have you in our records.") And you'd also have a bunch of sorryass parasites sitting around trying to calculate which zip codes are likely to have the most fires, so they can stick their unlucky inhabitants with higher fees. Also each company would adjust prices dramatically upward to include profits as well.

Since no city in real life is actually stupid enough to have several different fire departments, there is no way of comparing that hypothetical situation with the current state of affairs in the provision of health care. But this was not always the case. There used to be private fire departments, and markers designating fire protection eligibility can still be found in antique shops. If your neighbor's house caught fire from the cinders of your fire, your personal firefighting service would just let the other house burn. If there was a dispute about coverage, competing services would often spray more water on each other than on the fire. Before the revolutionary war, that well-known commie rat bastard Benjamin Franklin put a stop to this practice with America's first public fire department in Philadelphia.)

We do know what happens to health care prices in towns with more than one hospital compared to towns of similar size with only one hospital-namely that the more hospitals, the more expensive health care is. And it's perfectly obvious why-if you think about the proper economic analogy, namely that of the fire department. And it's exactly the opposite of what happens with restaurants, barbers and computer manufacturers-more of those means better and cheaper products and services. Since firefighting is paid for as a public investment, they'll go to a house of $100,000 assessed valuation just as rapidly as one with a million dollar valuation, even though the property taxes are higher in the latter case. People in wealthy areas may have some overall service advantages, but the difference is trivial compared to the difference between people with and without health insurance. In addition, the fees would be jacked up even higher to include as much profit as possible.

Competition actually degrades performance directly as well. The single most important factor in determining your chances of surviving a complex operation is the number of those operations previously performed in that hospital. Divide the number of operations by the number of similar facilities in town, and you have calculated the relative incompetence factor. The same goes for firefighters-they keep their skills up by practicing on buildings slated for demolition that have been set on fire, or on fire towers which have serious restrictions as to where they can be located. Therefore there are limited numbers of these, and dividing them up among competing departments would mean that everyone would have lower skill levels. Compare this with computers, where sales and product improvement efforts mean more computers are made and sold. Somehow you just can't sell people on the virtues of having more heart attacks and house fires, so more competitors means less real-life practice for everyone.

In one respect, public payment for health insurance is more like paying for roads than firefighters. Just as roadbuilding is paid for by the public but almost always contracted out to private outfits, medical providers would continue to be private operators even though publicly financed. Road maintenance is done by both public and private employees-how you decide between the two options is by putting the matter up to public debate and arguing about it. (This is called "activism" these days, although it used to be just plain old "citizenship.")

That firefighting is a public business leads to putting arguments of how to pay for it in the public venue. Service providers will always want to do less work for more money, and service recipients want more service for less money. No conceivable social arrangement can alter that basic fact of life. What happens is that unions and professional organizations argue about the solutions in public, bond issues and tax rates are proposed, and everybody comes to a compromise arrangement. And there is no reason to think that the same process won't work with health care providers. You can't cover everything and pay everyone what s/he thinks s/he deserves, so you put all the arguments on the public table and come up with a compromise.

And this segues into other public policy areas as well. In the case of firefighting, there are building codes and enforcement to argue about, fire safety and extinguisher training, smoke alarm requirements, etc. In the case of health, there is urban design (making walking and biking easier, for instance), health education and awareness, arguing about how to evaluate various technologies for proven results, etc. By comparison, making matters of
computer design subject to this kind of public dispute would be unbelievably stupid.

And finally there is the question of how do we afford single payer. Establishment opinion says that the Kucinich proposal is outrageously expensive compared to the proposals of other candidates. Of course they fail to mention that we would no longer have private insurance expenses, that out of pocked expenses would be dramatically reduced, and that wewould continue to have the government funding that we now have. The fact is that we are already paying for universal health care-we just aren't getting it. Suppose your electric bill is $400 and you don't have that much. And suppose that you check your back yard and find out that someone is tapping into the line between the power provider and your house, siphoning off as much as they can get by with. All of a sudden the fact that you don't have $400 isn't the main problem any more.

The health care plans of all the other candidates (note that Sharpton and Braun just advocate single payer--they have no specific plans posted on their sites) are in fact more expensive than that of Kucinich, because they all assume that we continue to spend what we are already spending, but should add more to that total in order to further subsidize private insurance companies, who would continue to drain off funds in the pipeline flowing from the public to health care providers. For those who like equations, those plans would cost out as

Total proposed health care spending = Current spending + incremental proposal extra expenses - x, where x is whatever unknown amount of savings would be produced by the plan. (Extending preventive care, no matter how incrementally, can be expected to produce some saving.)

Kucinich plan = current spending only - x.

So remember boys and girls-HEALTH CARE IS INFRASTRUCTURE!

For a nice analysis of Canadian Single Payer with references, see below.

http://www.geocities.com/stewjackmail/pdf/uhc-canus.pdf
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. "Healthcare is Infrastructure" -- WONDERFUL argument! The best I've seen
Without a doubt, that's the best argument I've ever seen for single-payer, universal coverage. I've bookmarked this thread.

Outstanding. Thank you!!
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Yes - and Great answer!, eridani! n/t
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Liberator_Rev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Well put, Eridani, Can I quote you on our web site?
We've got some great material already on our website on the subject. Please email me with with material if you would like us to enhance it with your argument. Ray@LiberalsLikeChrist.Org

http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/healthcare


See what Christ might say about the "Christian Coalition" & "Religious Right" imposters.

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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. Very, very, good post on services.
The fire department analogy was particulary good.

Also I agree that the patchwork bullshit that the "We need to work with the Insurance companies to duct-tape together a Universal Care plan" people are offering is a joke.

All they'll do is enrich more HMO's. Yippee.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. Excellent and well-written post, eridani
Edited on Wed Oct-01-03 09:03 AM by FlaGranny
I'm saving it. Thank you.

EDIT: I'd like to see you submit this to every major newspaper's editorial column.
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mrsteve Donating Member (713 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. Brilliant Analysis

Now, if we can just plant the meme - "healthcare is infrastructure"
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #15
33. Well, ok, at least you've got a slogan....
But if health care is infrastructure, it is analogous to police and fire protection.

Except, of course, for the fact that it's not infrastructure.

These services are also expensive, but do people feel that if their houses don't burn down and they don't get assaulted or robbed, the property taxes paying for these services are a ripoff? Should the expenses for these services be paid only by the people who are immediately served by them? Obviously not.


OK. But that doesn't lend any creedence to the proposition that firefighting and health care are fundamentally analogous.

The slogan "Health care is infrastructure" beats "Health care is a right" as well. The latter makes people think of endlessly inflating entitlements that will drive the country into bankruptcy and still not satisfy everyone. Saying that health care is infrastructure not only directly and inevitably implies that health care is a right, but it gets people thinking about the issue in the most productive manner, namely as active citizens responsible for helping to determine public policy.


But, as far as I can see, you have made the claim that they are the same, or at least should be see as such, and you haven't actually backed that up.

Are health care and firefighting similar in certain respects? Sure. Are they the same thing, or do they stem from the same fundamental basis? Not that I can see.
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acerbic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. How are firefighting and health care NOT fundamentally analogous?
OK. But that doesn't lend any creedence to the proposition that firefighting and health care are fundamentally analogous.

Does the community let your house burn down if you can't pay for putting the fire out?
Does the community (or do you think it should) let you die of an easily curable disease or injury if you can't pay for treatment?

What are you saying is the fundamental difference?
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BonjourUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
26. How many ?
Edited on Wed Oct-01-03 10:54 AM by BonjourUSA
Our Health care system is very good, not excellent. But it's very very expensive. In France for example, we can't continue to have 10 billion euros deficit per year. Nothing justify the refunds of confort drugs. (I'm tired, I'm gonna ask to my medic a little pill. I'm stressed, I'm gonna ask to my medic another little pill...). I agree with the last decisions of French government to stop the refunds of hundreds of this type of drugs except for a depression.

I am not going to explain a very complex system. Briefly, we are refunded between 70 an 80 % for medic, drugs and little operations. 100% for heavy diseases (cancer, heart disease... and opérations more serious than appendicitis). We can be 100% refunded if we subscribe a cheap insurance (mutuelle). Dentist and optical are refunded too, but in bad conditions in the general system, "mutuelle" is needed.

But I don't want it to become as the English one (thousands of British come in France just for getting an operation, because they must wait months in GB). If tomorrow, you or me are having either a little disease or a cancer we know we are going to get free care. And even, to continue to receive our wage. If I, or anybody of my family, fall down in my stairs (I don't hope to do), an ambulance would come to pick up me and I would be care in the best conditions at the nearest hospital. and I would need physical therapy I'd get it. All that would be absolutely free. Even if I want a single room I'd get.

But we're talking about Universel Medical Care. I am just explaining the French system. Here, if you earn about less than 8000 euros per year (it's very few) you have ALL medical care free (100% refund. Medics, grugs, dentist, hospital..).


Of course, this system costs. I'm going to give you a real example (one of my employees).

Wage : 3930,80€ (4588,43$)

He pays as employee to social organizations :
Medical health + unemployment + retirement + "mutuelle" + ... = 854,48 € (997,26$)
He really perceives per month : 3930,80 - 854,48 = 3076,32 € (3590,37$)

And I pay for him as employer to social organizations : 2568,14 € (2997,28$)
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. BonjourUSA, I have one little correction to make
Edited on Wed Oct-01-03 11:02 AM by FlaGranny
An appendectomy is every bit as serious as cancer and heart disease. Many have died within days of getting appendicitis. It is emergency, life saving surgery.

Edit: And I do hope you are covered fully for it.
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BonjourUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. We are covered fully for all opérations
Under the appendectomy we are 80% covered. But 100% with "mutuelle" (Mutuelle = 30 € per month for all the familly)
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
27. Kucinich's plan is the best.
this should be.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
28. YES! It's a fundamental reflection on our society
A society that says that people should have access to health care only on the basis of whether or not they can pay is a society that tells a large number of people that they have no "value". It is a society that values money and mindless consumerism over people.

In short, it is an indication of what has truly become WRONG with American society.

Providing adequate health care to every man, woman and child in the US is a moral issue, plain and simple. It is a major step forward to shifting our society from one of materialism and consumerism to one that values compassion, empathy and cooperation.
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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
30. YES to the nth power! n/t
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
35. Yes. No mamby-pamby tax credits,
no savings accounts. Fairness to all.
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alexwcovington Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
38. Yes!!! Yes!!! Yes!!!
And the switch would be really simple for North Dakota all by itself, if we could just get enough Repukes out of office...
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-03 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
43. It would be nice
But I don't see the word "compassion" coming to the American lexicon anytime soon.
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