Lieberman vs Dean comparsion

[Hawkeye-X]

I am about to start an e-mail correspondance to my conservative-leaning BIL, which he is supporting Lieberman. Of course, that was his choice, but he was really curious about my support to Dean. We are both Jewish, so Lieberman is his obvious choice. He can be swayed, so I need your help to help put together a e-mail.

What makes Dean different from Lieberman?

I can point out to DFA websites on Dean's positions, but I know he'll probably argue that it mirrors Lieberman, one way or another. I can point out that Dean is a centrist, not a liberal and will work with both aisles and is attracting people from both sides.

It should be an interesting discussion, and I will keep you guys posted on what he said.

Hawkeye-X

[eileen from OH]

1. You might point out

that one thing that Dean does is attract new and younger voters while Lieberman and his railing against Hollywood, etc., turns them off Big Time. Both political parties are heavy with older people, and the party that can capture the attention and loyalty of the young is the one that will grow and triumph in the future. A lot of younger people WILL not only vote but volunteer and give $$ (what they can) for Dean and if Lieberman gets the nomination they'll do what they did in 2000 - stay home.

eileen from OH

[dofus]

2. Perhaps a good start would be to ask

your BIL why Lieberman is his automatic choice? Why is the Jewish connection all that's necessary or sufficient?

Then ask BIL how he stands on various issues, such as the war in Iraq. Try to get BIL to see that he may actually differ from Lieberman in important ways, and therefore should not support Lieberman.

Of course, it's more than possible that BIL actually agrees with Lieberman on all important points, in which case he's made the right choice. Which then leads to who will he support when Lieberman isn't the moninee?

[HFishbine]

3. My Take

Liberman capitulates to the current paridigm, Dean wants to shape it.

Lieberman is a pragmatist to a fault -- at a time, in my opinion, when we need someone who can enthuse people in order to change the direction of the country. For example, when Lieberman saw what he thought was the writing on the wall, he let Al Gore down. When he saw what he thought was the writing on the wall, he stood with Bush, shoulder to shoulder, on the war.

Dean's a pragmatist too, but he ads a populist bent and a clear vision to his campaign. Dean is an agent of change. Lieberman is old guard.

[dolstein]

5. Crap

Dean was the longest serving Democratic governor by the time he left office. He's chaired the National Governors Association. He's chaired the Democratic Governors Association. He got his start working on Jimmy Cartner's reelection campaign. He supported Dick Gephardt in 1988. He was even a member of the DLC.

Frankly, I put a lot more weight on what people were saying and doing BEFORE they decided to run for president. Sure, Dean now sounds like he's ready to storm the ramparts. But he's as much a part of the "old guard" you refer to as Lieberman.

[blm]

8. Dean "capitulated" to the right with the best of em.

By ROSS SNEYD

Associated Press Writer

>>>>>>>

Many of the people who were his allies and adversaries in Montpelier over his 20-year political career have been quietly bemused by the liberal persona he’s built as he campaigns in Iowa and New Hampshire, especially through his outspoken opposition to the war in Iraq.

>>>>>

Dean kept his distance from his party’s liberals during his governorship.

"He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.

Dean fashioned himself a position in the political center of Vermont politics even as the state has moved steadily to the left......back in Vermont have shrugged their shoulders as they’ve watched Dean allow himself to be cast as a liberal. They know it’s not the first time politicians have miscalculated his political leanings.

>>>>>>

Dean trimmed spending or held down increases in areas held dear by the liberals. More than once, Dean went to battle over whether individual welfare benefits should rise under automatic cost of living adjustments. Liberals were particularly incensed when he tried that tactic on a program serving the blind, disabled and elderly, which he did several times.

Dean turned often to the bully pulpit to belittle and berate them.

Last year, in a news conference tirade that was typical of his budget feuds with the Legislature, Dean lambasted the Senate. "The Senate budget is in la-la land," Dean said last May. "They’re pretending there is no recession."

>>>>>>

Rivers blames Dean for helping a third political party to flourish in Vermont that many say siphons votes from Democrats. "The Progressive Party gained some momentum during his years as governor because he was so conservative," Rivers said, although she said she still may support Dean for president.
>>>>>>>>>

Link is broken, but, I am sure many of you have seen this article.

[dolstein]

4. The Differences

As far as I can tell, the primary difference is that Joe Lieberman supported the decision to invade Iraq, whereas Dean opposed that decision. Exactly how much Dean opposed the decision is open to debate -- some statements suggest that his primary objection was going in without UN support. Other statements suggest that he didn't view Iraq as an immediate threat and opposed any action at this time, whether unilateral or under UN auspices.

Lieberman and Dean also differ on tax cuts. Dean wants to repeal all of the Bush tax cuts. Lieberman wants to repeal most of the tax cuts, but wants to leave in place those tax cuts that benefit middle class taxpayers (e.g., the reduction in the rate on the lowest bracket and the expansion of the child tax credit).

Lieberman and Dean differ on trade, although exactly how much they differ is a bit unclear. After all, Dean supported NAFTA and the WTO. Now Dean says he'd oppose any trade agreement that doesn't incorporate international labor statements. At other times he's suggested he's oppose any trade agreement that doesn't impose on the other country labor and environmental statements identical to those in the U.S., a position that would probably mean no new trade agreements.

Lieberman and Dean differ on Israel, although this difference may be more rhetorical than substantive. Both support a two state solution. Dean, however, has called for Israel to begin withdrawing from the settlements. Lieberman has indicated that the issue of settlements should be the subject to negotiations between the parties, and has also indicated that Israel shouldn't be obligated to make any concessions until the Palestinian Authority shows that it is serious about ending terrorist attacks on Israel.

These are the biggest substantive differences I see, and frankly, they pale in comparison to the substantive differences each has with Bush. The simple truth is that Lieberman is perceived as being much more centrist than he really is, and Dean is perceived as being more left-wing than he really is. But perceptions can make a huge difference, especially in the general election.

[stickdog]

6. Maybe someone should tell this to Lieberman? (NT)

[dolstein]

7. As opposed to Kerry and Gephardt, not to mention Dean himself

Sorry, but Lieberman's hardly the only candidate to exaggerate the differences between himself and the other candidates. Dean's a serial exaggerator in this regard. First he goes around telling people that he represents the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party -- thereby branding all the other candidates as mere tools of the Republican Party. Then he lies about Edwards, saying he never talks about his Iraq vote before hostile audiences. Then Dean lies again, saying he's the only candidate who talks about race to white audiences.

Personally, I can't blame Lieberman for using Deans own words against him. After all, Dean brings these problems on himself by taking positions on the campaign trail that contrast sharply with positions he's taken as governor.