Hillary supporting Roberts - not a bad thing?

[annerevere]

Roberts may not be as conservative as people think. Have you read the Washington Post piece on him this morning? The guy does not wear his politics on his sleeve like Scalia and Thomas. He is cautious and respects judicial precedent. And he is married to an ardent feminist who happens to be pro life.

I don't know of many hard-line crazy conservatives who marry feminists. Do you?

Hillary may be doing the smart thing. As long as he isn't right-wing crazy and he's replacing a conservative, he may be a good pick considering the Dems don't control Congress. Bush could have given us a flame thrower. He didn't, and I think he didn't because he is not politically strong enough for a tough fight.

[Goldmund]

1. She's a FAW feminist

You know, "Feminists Against Women"...

[annerevere]

3. I know many feminists, my self included

who oppose abortion.

[Goldmund]

7. Fascinating... How exactly does that work out?

:)

[greatauntoftriplets]

11. Do you personally oppose abortion????

Or do you oppose a woman's right to choose for herself? To make her own decision????

[DemGirl7]

27. I'm not a fan of abortion either, but I'm for a woman to have a choice

I don't think the gov't should tell us that women have no choice over their own bodies... I don't care if someone wants an abortion, it's not my right to tell them what to do.

[puddycat]

38. my exact thoughts--personally wouldn't choose it, but choice MUST remain

it makes me sick to my stomach that so many self-righteous people who oppose abortion are also supporting this horrendous war in Iraq which has killed 25,000 Iraqi citizens, many of them children. The lives of those children don't mean much to these anti-abortion people.

[bloom]

43. NOPE

Not in my definition of feminism is the idea that women do not have the right to make the decision themselves.

[FourStarDemocrat]

62. That's fine, but do you also oppose the freedom of other women to choose?

Because it's not a person's private views that are the issue in abortion rights. People who are personally against abortion for themseles and their families are welcomed in a pro-choice environment.

It's the prospect of the government deciding for women what they can and cannot due with their bodies, instead of leaving that private decision up to the women themselves that is the problem here.



edit:sp

[ikojo]

2. Back in the early 90s the big thing for fundies

to do was to run as stealth candidates for school boards. They seemed moderate until they either won or were exposed by the press. This happened with regularity in one of the large suburban St Louis school districts.

[lancdem]

4. Who says Hillary is supporting Roberts?

Don't tell me you believe Drudge, too? :eyes:

[annerevere]

5. She'll vote for him

Because she's positioning herself as a moderate for a run in 2008.

[lancdem]

10. I'm not so sure she will

A no vote won't hurt her politically, I don't think.

[Dr.Phool]

32. I think it's time for Hillary to take her act home.

She's getting old, real fast.


I'm sooo tired of these DLCer's selling everyone out to corporate interests, and not fighting.

Keep your ammunition dry while you're being overrun.

[DistressedAmerican]

6. Feminists For Life. Slaveholders for Abolition. Racists For Diversity.

See where I'm going with this?

[annerevere]

13. I see it, but I don't understand

why you have to be a card-carrying pro choicer to be a feminist.

If we want to keep losing in 2006 and 2008, let's keep making that connection. And in doing so, we will lose a ton of votes of women who weren't born in the kitchen and who simply disagree.

Geez, let's stop the stereotypes, okay?

[greatauntoftriplets]

15. So winning is everything????

More of essentially the same policies that craphead has espoused?

On edit: Democrats took the safe route in last year's election. Kerry really didn't offer much difference from craphead's policies. He lost. Seems that given a choice between a repuke and a Democrat who sounds like a repuke, the voters take the repuke.

[annerevere]

30. Kerry is like Bush?

Geez, that's a tough one to argue. Kerry got a lot of support here at DU, and I don't think it was because he was like Bush. Lieberman is like Bush. And Joe's not going anywhere.

We've got to stop putting down women who are feminist but oppose abortion. I'm one of those, though I don't support the abolition of Roe v. Wade. It is possible to believe in women's equality and opportunity and believe at the same time that life begins at conception.

I dislike clubs that have too many rules, especially ones that shut people out. This is beginning to sound like a very narrow-minded, my-way-or-the-highway club.

[DistressedAmerican]

33. If You Claim To Be A "Feminist" But Oppose Abortion Rights, How Do You

define the term.

Please name a single major feminist organization that opposes abortion rights. Just one.

What you subscribe to is not feminism. Not sure what to call it. But, if it means advocating governemnt control over women's bodies, it is not feminism.

[BeTheChange]

52. Im a feminist who does not support abortion.

Im not for outlaw of Roe v. Wade, but I will not march for defending it either.

I believe life begins at conception. I also strongly believe women should have control over their bodies and that starts with taking complete responsibility for thier bodies and KNOWING their bodies. I wake up every morning and chart my temperature and cervical mucus. How many other women in america do that today? How many women have so much knowledge and control over their bodies that they even know what their body is doing on any given day? Although I know that not everyone has a normal cycle, that is also something that can be worked on over time.

Everytime I say this, I am told that no method of birth control is 100%, I of course counter that 3 used simultaneously sure get the numbers wayyyyy up there.

And then, there is always alternate sexuality, oral sex, manual stimulation, nonpenetrating.. etc.

I dont think that abortion is a right. I think it is a decision made by far to many who feel they have no other options. I do not judge them for that, but I dont feel that by making that decision it empowers them.. or by having that decision to make they experience empowerment.

Obviously, this opinion is not popular on du, and Im not going to spend hours answering the slew of negative messages Im likely to get in return. Feminism is defined as: Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.

I will continue to fight for equality of the sexes. That has nothing to do with abortion.

[annerevere]

65. Thank you for sharing your view

I'm with you completely. And I agree that this position is not popular here at DU. There are so many great things about DU, but perhaps the most negative aspect is the tendency for people to attack those who do not share all of the so-called core principles of the left. It's as if you don't support a particular position, you're not welcome. And that view is one big reason why we continue to lose elections. We shut people out who otherwise share so many of our views.

[Misunderestimator]

76. A "particular position" you call women's right to choose... as if it is

just one little thing among millions, so therefore we should compromise it. No thanks.

[annerevere]

82. Well, let's stand up for abortion at all costs.

The pro choice stance just may be what's keeping us from gaining real power in Washington and actually changing things. Like the environment. Like the war on terror. Like the Iraq war. Like social security. Like health insurance. Like education.

But no. Let's say 'choice or die' and die. Then we'll all be happy that we stuck to our principle. As the Repubs are ramming down stuff you've never even heard of, down our throats when they have a 60+ majority in the Senate.

But that won't matter of course, because we all stood up for one principle. Rove will be laughing all the way to complete and total domination of the federal government.

And then, won't we be smug and self-satisfied. The way we usually are after yet another blistering defeat.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greatauntoftriplets]

34. Kerry said he could fight the war in Iraq better than craphead....

He didn't sound much different from craphead.

I voted for Kerry while holding my nose. But I didn't say much about him. How long have you been here? Before the primaries??? I said plenty then. And was a Kucinich supporter. And like Dean a lot.

You didn't answer the question. Do you oppose a woman's right to choose? Are you saying it is your way or the highway in terms of abortion?

BTW, I have never had an abortion. Have you????

[annerevere]

66. I've been reading DU and commenting since 2000

Dean was unelectable and so was Kucinich. Kerry was our shot, and the debates showed just the huge differences between Kerry and Bush.

I support Roe v. Wade reluctantly, but I personally oppose abortion. My support is based on judicial precedent.

I don't hold any 'highway' views because such an attitude is terribly unproductive and again, is a major reason why our party continues to lose elections. We shut too many people out.

I don't know what having an abortion or not has to do with this issue.

[Individualist]

81. Not according to your profile

[annerevere]

83. I've been reading and commenting since 2000,

period.

[charlie]

85. You mean 2001 n/t

[puddycat]

40. you can be personally opposed but still for the rights of others to choose

what is wrong with that? That's how I feel about it. I wouldn't choose it myself, but feel its imperative that others have the right to choose, because circumstances may be such that a person feels it is necessary. And that right is one that women have fought long and hard for. It makes me sick that women don't appreciate the struggle that women went through to achieve rights, and now a new generation of women want to just toss it all away like those rights are NOTHING.

[FourStarDemocrat]

64. well said.

My great grandmother died of an unsafe, illegal abortion in the 1920's after having and raising nine children in almost as many years in an immigrant tenament apartment in nyc. Outlawing abortion will not prevent women from seeking it. And it will only cause the needless deaths of women with no access to safe medical services.

[Mass]

46. Kerry is not like Bush

If you believe that, there is little people can do for you.

Dean is fairly close to Kerry anyway.

[DistressedAmerican]

16. No REAL Feminist Wants To Give The Government Control Of Women's Bodies.

Simple as that. Buy the name "feminists" for life if you want. It is nothing but spin. Feminism does not involve working for less women's rights.

Need I explain further?

[Goldmund]

17. It's not a matter of stereotypes, but consistency

I'm dying to hear how an anti-choice position can live within a feminist ideological world.

[puddycat]

39. are you clueless? you can't be a feminist & be opposed to women's rights!

Women have struggled for thousands of years to have rights over their own bodies. For most of history, they have been at the mercy of men. If they were lucky, their men treated them kindly, if not, they were abused and beaten. They had no where to go--until the advent of women's rights. It was a long hard struggle and lots of women, and men too, died in that struggle. And now you say you can be a feminist and be against abortion????????????????????????????


I think NOT, honey. I think NOT. Get a clue. Learn some history.
You can be opposed to abortion for yourself, but you have no stinking right to tell other women what to do with their bodies. GET IT?

[annerevere]

67. There we go again

I'm clueless because I disagree with you? Just the attitude that the Dems need to win in 2006 and 2008. Insult and drive away women who differ on this single issue.

Geez, puddycat, I was a history major in college and a Ph.D.-prof for many years. I've done enough reading.

Stop insulting people who disagree with you.

[Misunderestimator]

77. Wait... how will it drive you away? Are there not other issues in the

democratic party that keep you here? You've already said that you are not pro-choice and that you only support Roe V Wade "reluctantly." How then does it follow that you would be DRIVEN from the democratic party because of people in this party who are pro-choice?

Sure, let's give up our ethics and principals (and eventually our rights) so that we can have more people like you who don't want us to be equal in our party. That makes a hell of a lot of sense.... :crazy:

[Mandate My Ass]

78. Yup, it's the trap they set for themselves and fall into every time

Give up your reproductive freedom and that of all other women in the country, or else I'm outta here.

I'll go to the pro-corporate, pro-pollution, anti-civil rights, anti-privacy, anti-healthcare, anti-worker party unless I get to set the agenda for the left. Sounds like an ardent feminist to me.

[annerevere]

80. Come again?

Who said that I didn't want you to be equal in the Dem party? Where did you get that?

Please. Stop the stereotypes.

I'm a committed Dem. I'm not going anywhere. But there are a few million, make that a score or two million, who aren't committed Dems and who might be persuaded to join the party if people (not naming any names) would stop villifying them and shutting them out because they are not pro choice. And if they join and support Dem candidates, we just might win the Senate. Or even the House. And then we'd be a heck of a lot better off than we are now.

Geez, disagree with people at DU on abortion, and so many go crazy and jump all over the place.

[Misunderestimator]

87. "go crazy and jump all over the place" ... um.... ok.

[mknmehappy]

72. In your opinion than??

does the father have any rights or say?

[Mass]

45. Seems pretty obvious

how can you be a feminist and not give to women the right to decide of their reproductive techniques.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

54. "If we want to keep losing"

When will you guys learn that this type of stuff is an obvious giveaway as to what you're actually trying to do here?

[annerevere]

68. Don't understand your comment

Winning elections is the key to change, like it or not.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

70. My comment was suggesting that..

..the only people who come on here to talk about what "we" need to do, why "we" keep losing (yada yada yada), aren't actually Democrats.

Of course winning elections is important, but this is just a pattern I've noticed. For example, "if we don't do this (ie. act like Republicans), we'll always be relegated to minority status".

[annerevere]

71. So I'm impersonating a Democrat?

I'm actually a Republican? Please.

It's a fact that we keep losing more elections than we win. Perhaps we should consider why.

Calling me a stealth Republican just because you disagree with me on one issue, perhaps that's one reason why.

For all DU's strengths, discussing differences instead of attacking the dissenter, isn't one of them.

[noiretextatique]

56. they aren't remotely "feminist"

a simple review of their website will prove that to you. they are an anti-choice PR group...and little else. they bandied about their trademarked slogan "women deserve better," but what did i find on their "women deserve better" link? advertismentsn for anti-choicers to download and disseminate.
women do deserve better than what 'feminists' for life offers.

[zanne]

61. It's this simple--

If you oppose choice, you're against my rights. Period. And don't think you're being clever calling yourself a feminist.

[FourStarDemocrat]

63. It's not a losing issue if 60% of the pop. supports choice.

It's a myth to think otherwise, that the Democrats are losing because of this issue. A maj9rity of people in the country support the right to choose and an even larger majority supports abortion rights with certain limitations, such as Parental Consent laws. Sixty percent of the public supports Roe v Wade with the limitations already contained in that decision (trimesters for example) as published this week in a CNN/Gallop poll.

[Misunderestimator]

75. If you don't understand, then why did you mention her being a feminist

in your OP? Seems to me you were trying to insinuate to people here (as if they didn't already know what kind of "feminist" she is) that her being an "ardent feminist" means that our rights are less at risk.

[stepnw1f]

8. You Gotta Link For That Statement? (nt)

[Goldmund]

9. Here

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3hcr.htm

[lancdem]

12. No one close to Hillary would ever talk to Drudge

She may vote ultimately yes, but this is simply an attempt by Drudge to make it seem like Roberts has strong Dem support; it's another Clinton smear.

[Goldmund]

14. I don't really see how...

...making it seem like Roberts has Dem support NOW helps Bush. That makes for an absence of controversy, which then clears the media stage for Plamegate etc.

Whatever Drudge says now, Hillary -- even according to him -- qualified her support on what comes out in the confirmation hearings, leaving the door open when the time comes to fight, if needed. Since the congress is in recess until September, there is absolutely no Democratic benefit -- to the contrary -- to making Roberts controversial prematurely.

[Mass]

47. It is another way to attack Clinton

I still cannot understand why liberals accept what Drudge says (obviously only when it comes to people they do not like).

This man is slime. How can you give him any credibility?

[Goldmund]

49. Of course he's slime

But that doesn't mean that some of what he prints isn't true -- actually, most of it is, statistically speaking. As far as this Hillary bit, it doesn't surprise me at all and I'm inclined to believe it. We'll all see tomorrow.

How does this attack Clinton?

[creeksneakers2]

19. I don't believe a word of it

They are trying to smear Hillary by making her look like she makes choices based on crude political calculations. They are trying to put her on the spot. Hillary will wait until after the hearings to make up her mind, just like the others.

[Swamp Rat]

22. Here's a pic to go with the link:

:D

[DistressedAmerican]

24. It Is Rare We See DUers Try To Pass Drudge Off A Source!

Of course anyone that believes in "Feminists" for life makes me wonder from the start.

[Swamp Rat]

26. Get back in the kitchen and shut up woman!

... and bring me a beer! Enough with all this feminism and choice crap!

[DistressedAmerican]

28. Femininsts Work To Keep Bush Out Of Their Uterus!

I Could Use That Beer Though!

[Swamp Rat]

31. Oh man! That one is great!

:thumbsup:

[greatauntoftriplets]

29. A woman's true role....

Put another log on the fire.
Cook me up some bacon and some beans.
And go out to the car and change the tyre.
Wash my socks and sew my old blue jeans.
Come on, baby, you can fill my pipe,
And then go fetch my slippers.
And boil me up another pot of tea.
Then put another log on the fire, babe,
And come and tell me why you're leaving me.

Now don't I let you wash the car on Sunday?
Don't I warn you when you're gettin fat?
Ain't I a-gonna take you fishin' with me someday?
Well, a man can't love a woman more than that.
Ain't I always nice to your kid sister?
Don't I take her driving every night?
So, sit here at my feet 'cos I like you when you're sweet,
And you know it ain't feminine to fight.

So, put another log on the fire.
Cook me up some bacon and some beans.
Go out to the car and lift it up and change the tyre.
Wash my socks and sew my old blue jeans.
Come on, baby, you can fill my pipe,
And then go fetch my slippers.
And boil me up another pot of tea.
Then put another log on the fire, babe,
And come and tell me why you're leaving me.

[Swamp Rat]

35. Yes

... and if we update it a bit, there is the important part about being a submissive lump in the bed.

[greatauntoftriplets]

18. No responses to direct questions????

:shrug:

[DistressedAmerican]

20. I Call Stealth Pro-Lifer Trying To Make Points On Robert's Wife's

bullshit hypocracy. There are no "Feminists" For Life. No such creature exists.

I'm not buying it.

[autorank]

21. IF she supports Roberts, IF, then she's an idiot and a traitor to DEMS.

:rant:

Our Senators are a bunch of "morans." Bush is on the ropes, 42% and falling. Don't they know this. It's time to open up, throw some serious punches, press on all fronts. They act like it's some sort of club where they can just take their time and fart around as long as they like.

I've got news for Hillary, Feinstein, Biden, Lieberman, and the rest of the fools---wake up, our country is being destroyed by the * WH and its supporters; it's time to act.

Hillary supporting this idiot, please. If she does, she goes nowhere in 2008. Why? Because the full measure of the insanity will be known and there will be an accounting. New leaders will rise up and they will use every advantage they can find to push out the old leaders. It will be an accounting and house cleaning. Why can't these idiots realize that we're the opposition.

[Mass]

48. OK, if Drudge says Dean supports Robert

Will you say "If Dean supports Roberts" or will you say "Drudge is slime".

I know what i will say. I am curious to hear your answer.

[autorank]

55. Well, I had the advantage of listening to her on CNN today.

She was talking about his sterling qualifications and then said something about waiting to hear the committee deliberations. I guess she hasn't been told (a) the guy advised Jeb Bush on how to appoint Republican electors should Gore win the recount in Florida 2000 and (b) the guy wrote the case to overturn Roe when he worked for the Office of the Solicitor General under *I. Those are issues that should be aired. If she won't do that to help the deliberation process, what use is she?

I put the little rant thing in front of what I said and the "IF" in the subject field because I'm not sure how she'll vote. I always remind myself, in her case, that she voted for the Bush tax cuts. Do you know how bad that is for a Democrat? She participated in turning a $6.0 billion surplus (with Clinton) into a $5.0 billion devicit...that's an $11.0 swing. She's not what we need in office. She helped screw the nation for years to come.

Now, regarding Dean, I'd have no reason to take any rumor of Dean supporting this guy seriously, not a single one. I've got plenty of reasons to see Feinstein do this. She is an abomination (oops, forgot to mention her husband's firm got a multi million dollar Iraq contract. Don't recall her talking about conflict of interest but, hey, what the heck...)

[Mass]

60. Well I heard a lot of Democrats say the same thing

including Kennedy.

I would be surprised if Kennedy supports Roberts, but he understands how the game is played.

As for Clinton, could you point where she voted for the tax cuts? I dont like her, but I am not sure she was in for that one.

There are a lot of things to be incensed right now, from what is happening in the Senate this week to the nomination of Judge Roberts in passing by the Rove scandal.

Being incensed on Hillary because of a Sludge rag is a terrible loss of time and energy, IMHO. I hope she wont be our nominee, but it is too early to fight for that.

[bowens43]

23. Ridiculous. The guy is an extremist.

He is a hardliner. Anti-women, anti-civil rights, anti-choice, anti-environment, pro-corporation.

As we have seen, Hillary is a sell out of the worst kind. There is no ass she won't kiss to get in power.

BTW, he is NOT replacing a conservative. She was a moderate. The only moderate on the court.

[Alcibiades]

41. Only moderate?

What about Souter? What about Anthony Kennedy? O'Connor was not the only persuadable vote on the Court.

Roberts is not a hardliner compared to many of the other folks Bush could have chosen, or even when compared to people currently on the Court.

Compared to the many horrible, horrible, ideologically-driven things this administration, the choice of Roberts seems relatively statesmanlike, leading me to believe that it was not made by Bush himself, but that he passed the choice off to someone else.

[kevsand]

58. For that matter, O'Connor wasn't a moderate.

She was frequently a swing vote. That doesn't make her a moderate. She was (and is) actually fairly conservative, by any measure.

The more we learn, the more we know that Roberts is, in fact, a hard liner. He's merely been, and continues to be, presented as a moderate, which he is not.

This choice was not at all statesmanlike, but instead was shrewdly calculated to elicit exactly the sort of response that it has. We need to make sure that people understand what a neanderthal he really is, so that they will demand that Congress reject him.

[kevsand]

25. First of all,

everything we learn about him says Roberts is more conservative than people think. That's how these guys play.

Second, if Hillary votes for Roberts, she's done. Pure and simple. That loses her the primary, hands down.

[Robbins]

37. Hilary

If she votes for Roberts this Is pure proof she Is not as Liberal as
the Media,and Republicans try to tell the public she Is. Our nominee
will be picked by Progressives,Union people,and Blacks. Roberts
would be bad for all three groups. And remember Bill's sucking up
to Bush on Iraq,and hanging with daddy Is also hurtful to her. She Is
starting to look like a DINO.

[Armstead]

36. If she supports him, she deserves to be sent to Siberia

I'm hoping this is just Drudge Sludge.

But if she votes for Roberts, she has gone further to the right than "moderate."

or else she is a complete and total phony.

Maybe the democreats can't beat this guy. But they all ought to at least challenge the right wing judicial philosophy he represents and vote No.

This is not only about abortion. It's anout the basic direction the country will go in. If someone as corporate and right wing socially as Roberts sails through without even a challenge, we really will have become a one-party nation.

[Alcibiades]

42. Scalia passed 98 to zero

The standard for the Senate's consent to a nomination typically isn't whether an individual senator agrees with the nominee on every issue, but is much lower. Basically, if they are not a criminal or insane, and they have decent credentials (legal or political) they're in.

Roberts is a well-qualified candidate. He's shrewd enough not to say anything to offend anyone one way or another. There's a very real chance that he does regard Roe as a matter of settled law. The real fight isn't now, it's when Roe is brought up again.

[Mass]

44. Sources please/

[MidnightWind]

50. See this for what it is people!

Look, they tried to nominate Roberts to get the attention off Rove. Then when the Dems didn't have a shit fit about it, they had to do something to get the focus back off of Rove and back on Roberts, or more importantly, AWAY from Rove. what better way than this? So half of us would jump up and down and declare her a false Democrat and a false feminisit? See, it's working. Don't let it. This is what they WANT!

[Goldmund]

51. I agree

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. You're being sarcastic, right? "Pro-Life ardent feminist"?

Roberts isn't a right-wing crazy?

Yeah, and Boobya is a "compassionate consevative".

And, we're "spreading democracy" in Iraq.

Fundies "Hate the sin, but love the sinner".

Hillary supporting Roberts is a good thing....for Hillary's political ambitions.

Hill-Mentum?

[noiretextatique]

57. "feminists for life"is an anti-choice organization

and little else. i see nothing on their website that indicates anyone associated with them is "an ardent feminist."

[EFerrari]

59. Feminists for Life!

What are the sister sites? Colored People for the Klan? Pacifists for Pre-Emption?

These must be those Zell Miller Feminists!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Ripley]

69. A lot of PF's in this thread.

Phoney Feminists. Yes, as a matter of fact you DO HAVE TO BE A CARD CARRYING PRO-CHOICER TO BE A FEMINIST.

I don't care what your personal feelings are on abortion due to your religion or whatever. I don't care if you March for Choice or not. I don't care if you never give PPFA a dime.

But you are most assuredly NOT a Feminist if you think you support equality in every issue except a female's right to control her own biological destiny. When you sell my body to the likes of Santorum and Delay, you are no Feminist. When you decide that your religion or YOUR government should force me to carry a child to term that I vehemently do not want, you are no Feminist. The only true Feminists are those who can distinguish between their personal beliefs about abortion and the rights of other Americans to live their personal beliefs regarding medical decisions without YOUR interference.

So just cut the act will you?

[Stray Roots]

73. His wife is a faux feminist for life

but if it disabuses feminist of the notion that Hillary is one of their own it is a damn good thing.

[Misunderestimator]

74. An Ardent Feminist?

:rofl:

[earth mom]

79. Hillary is a rethug. This proves it. She'll sell her soul for political

gain. :puke:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

84. Jane Roberts is NOT i repeat NOT a feminist!!!