How do you rationalize your good fortune with American Poverty?

[JanMichael]

http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/income02/prs03asc.html

"The official poverty rate rose, from 11.7 percent in 2001 to 12.1 percent in 2002. The number in poverty increased also, by 1.7 million people, to 34.6 million in 2002."

We all know the "official" is always lower than reality, no? We also "know" that some 42,000,000 have no health insurance and up to 100,000,000 Americans go without HC for up to three months every year, k'?

PS~ If "Your good fortune" is not applicable then please comment on what your situation is and what would make it "better" in your opinion.

[Cha]

1. Wait...what is poverty level?....I dare say I might qualify!

[twilight]

9. yeah really, WHAT ABOUT THE POOR?

This "poll" or whatever it is supposed to be makes the assumption that everyone here is making $75,000 a year or something. Frankly, this is offense IMO. What about the poor? What about those living below poverty level? Lets NOT count them as usual eh?

:grr:

:dem:

[JanMichael]

12. Um, I think I covered that!

"PS~ If "Your good fortune" is not applicable then please comment on what your situation is and what would make it "better" in your opinion."

For gawds sake I'm trying to make the Poverty issue an ISSUE!

[Shakeydave]

17. Look at the link.

It should explain this post!

[Capn Sunshine]

13. Poverty level is 8,860 individual

which is 4.25 /hr per 40 hrs.

I imagine in NYC the poverty level is probably more like 150,000.

[Shakeydave]

2. It's all about the change!

But the hardest thing to overcome is the individual!

[JanMichael]

4. Want to see something funny?

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi

We've done it!

[Shakeydave]

16. Bookmarked!

That is just about better than sex! Oh gawd! I'm pathetic!

[im4edwards]

3. you should have had something like 'hard work' works

my family was nothing special but we're all doing OK because we worked hard. You'll not convince me that it won't work.

[Shakeydave]

5. Yeah! Migrant laborers don't .............................

work fucking hard do they now!

[Capn Sunshine]

8. Work smarter not harder

Tell that MBA bullshit to the migrant worker.....
oh yeah, and "keep all your ducks in a row"

[JanMichael]

10. That's a great way to lose teeth!

Notice how Frist rarely gets filmed saying that in front of a family that just spent 10 hours picking tomatoes?

It simply would fly.

[Shakeydave]

21. Work smarter not harder?

:wtf: You're suggesting that if the migrant laborers were to develop a quicker or more efficient method of picking tomatos that the Agribusiness giant would reward those migrant workers with a living wage, health insurance and a full set of benefits? That response is about as sanctimonious as they come!

[JanMichael]

6. How does that address Poverty in America?

Same with my family but how does that address the question?

Does it blame the "victim"? The "Losers"?

[JanMichael]

7. BTW I like Edwards.

I think he's a pretty decent nascent Populist.

[sandnsea]

19. I hate that line the most

Most people work hard. The economy isn't set up to reward harder work with more pay. Those who had the educational means, the intelligence, the social skills, should appreciate how much their unique situation allowed them to make more money.

Flashback to the late 70's. My sister went to work for a dinky phone company in Arkansas. I went to work for Keds shoes. Fast-forward. That dinky phone company is now Alltel and she's a budget director. Keds shoes was pushed aside by Adidas and Nike. I was 'down-sized' in the early 80's. Now if I'd gone to work for Nike in Portland and she'd gone to work for Ma Bell, the outcome could be the exact opposite.

I'm not unhappy with the choices I made as a result of being forced to look somewhere besides corporations, but 'hard work' isn't the end all be all to financial wealth.

My dad worked hard every single day of his life and lost nearly everything when my mother was sick for ten years. I absolutely despise the "I worked hard" and "that's all it takes" bullshit. Life just isn't that simple.

[JanMichael]

27. Man. It's a shame that "Luck" plays such a significant role.

As to your parents my uncle is going through the "Illness will destroy you financially as well and physically" thing as we post here tonight...

It's inhumane what we do to the people that are vulnerable...

[sandnsea]

33. I'm sorry to hear that

I feel for anybody who is going through that, it's just the saddest thing for people to have to deal with both the illness and the financial devastation.

My mom passed away a couple of years ago and my Dad just goes on like he always has. Started putting away his savings again to try and make sure there's enough to care for him later on. And he's 70. And there's no telling him to slow down or not worry, it's just the way he is. If anybody stood in my face and said he should have worked harder I swear I'd punch them in the nose!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. I don't rationalize it but I feel no guilt for it

I didn't make this crap up, I work assisting those who would be at pverty level due to disability were it not for me and I make a decent living at it.

I work advoacting making sure those with less are taken care of and have a roof over their head and medical care.

While I understand what you are asking, I'm not terribly fond of the question.

[JanMichael]

14. I knew that it would offend.

And I know you're a pretty cool person but I want systemic change, not just our well guided, honest, piece-meal attempts at reconcilliation.

Can you forgive me?:-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. I want a systemic change too but frankly I think that capitalism

properly regulated works. People are more motivated to be productive when they can see they ccan get ahead by producing.

Granted, the POP CULTURAL version of getting ahead leaves much to be desired but still, I think a system wherein people are motivated to do well for themselves is more empowering.

I'm not offended by the question BTW..resentful would be a better word for it..the implication that my success is dependent on another's failure simply isn't true.

[wuushew]

24. Perhaps

but I feel Amerika is damn far distant from the type of regulation that is required. Europe is the future.

[DuctapeFatwa]

35. When they see they can get ahead - that is the problem

What people see is that they CAN'T get ahead by producing. They see that they can work two full shifts at minimum wage, exist on 3 hours of sleep a night, and they still can't afford housing.

What they see is that they can keep on doing these jobs, doing them well, producing, and if they get a raise at all, it is meaningless, a few cents a week.

They see that the price of a day's work has now fallen below the price of a day's survival.

This is not capitalism, it is feudalism.

Now we are seeing the "free market decides" trickle UP as people who made a living wage are being outsourced.

So while you would tell the hotel maid to clean more rooms and she will get ahead, you must now also tell the Oracle coder that if he wants to compete, he must lower his rates - to $5.85 an hour!

[twilight]

28. yup

That is where I am at with it too. Very uncool and arrogant IMO.

[JanMichael]

30. The thread is arrogant?

Is that what you're saying? If so I've already explain my motives and actions.

Sorry is you were offended.

[Shakeydave]

31. Uncool? Arrogant?

How many more categories and open response forums does the thread have to provide? If you can't make any response other than a snipe with all those choices you may need to take a break from responding!

[Clark Can WIN]

40. Perhaps cool

but definately arrogant. This I agree with.

[Shakeydave]

46. Explain?

I don't follow?

[Capn Sunshine]

15. I'm lucky.

I'm fortunate. I'm blessed. Every day I am thankful for what I have.

I'd like to share with everyone,but I don't.

I do however work as hard as I can for the less fortunate via constant support and ground level activism in the Democratic Party. And I hope you do too.

come to our meetup Wednesday night. Nationwide. Lend a hand to the solution.
http://www.meetup.com

[Clark Can WIN]

43. Amen brother sunshine

Amen.

I have honestly been hungry, for REAL. But I never expected anyone else to sell (or give up) their house and put their family on the street for my benifit.

There's this crazy thing called the common sense middle ground, and both our guys have it IMO. I'll fight for whichever one gets the nod with PRIDE!

[Cha]

Sorry! I missed the "P.S."! I love my job...I just don't make

a lot of money...but it's not always about the benjamins with me...

But I do feel that the richest Country on EArth should be able to help all it's citizens at some level ...whether it is job training or making sure no one starves.

[quaker bill]

20. I have worked hard

and I have been lucky as well.

Many of the poor work damn hard as well.

[Nikia]

22. I'm fortunate

I don't feel fortunate enough to do what I want to do though. I would feed all the hungry and give clothes to all those who need them. I would pay winter heating bills. I would buy children school supplies. I would help people keep their homes. I would pay tuition of poor kids who have the desire and ability to attend college. I will pay doctor's bills. It just so overwhelming, my husband won't go along with it in our current situation to the extent that I wish, and I still could only help a few people and families even if I chose a poverty lifestyle to make this possible.
The system is broken, but what should we do? Hard work may get you a job and enable you to keep it. It will not get you a good wage, though, if you are not lucky in landing a better job. The fact is that if you are the best worker at your place of business after a short time, you will never be promoted because they could not replace you with someone better. If you apply for another job, you have your years of experience but your employer may choose not to give you a recommendation and then you are the same as the people who are doing barely enough not to get fired. The best jobs are gotten by people who know someone. If you do not know someone in the good companies or someone with greater business influence, you will not get the job that best utilizes your qualifications regardles of your educational or career level. There are few good jobs and many low paying jobs. The fact is that someone need to work at McDonald's while the teens are in class or Walmart or any retail store or the low wage manufacturer and many of these people who do not have outside support will be struggling financially. Some may be on public assistance because they realize that if they send their children to day care and have to pay for transportation, they will have effectively made no money anyway. If we gave these people raises, many of these companies would respond to raising prices rather than cutting the salaries of their highest paid employees. What should happen? What will happen? I don't know how to fix the system as it is.
For now, I'll do my little that I do (It is not good to brag about these things.). If I were a millionaire, would I really do all I hope for or would I be greedy and corrupt? I do have ideas as to what I will do to make things better because it only recently occurred to me that I might be able to.

[Swede]

23. I am not my brothers keeper

Sticks in my craw like phlegm. I work 9 to 5,drive a 10 year old car
and make it payday to payday. I count my blessings and am more than happy to pay my fair share of taxes. After all I could be living in Iraq.

[Shakeydave]

25. Good words!

Sisu!

[NaMeaHou]

26. I got a condensed can of information from this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/09/26_poor.html

damn good article.

[Shanty Oilish]

29. I'm not on any of those lines.

As usual, the good fortune you're mentioning means money. I've been loaded 95% of my life, and never worked a day. When people tell me how lucky I am, they're always talking about the wrong thing---the money. I'm fortunate, but not because of the money.
I got everything from dead people I'd rather have seen live. People I loved, who loved me enough to leave me their worldly estates. I'd sooner have them around me, and be working poor.
I attribute it to sheer bad luck, that I've buried so many loved ones. I'm not such a bad person that I deserved to lose so many, or such a good one that I deserve the money.

[JanMichael]

32. You're obviously above this level of discourse.

My sincerest apologies for bringing it to your attention. I'm guilty of using the real economic conditions of Americans as a political tool, like (in your words) they're always talking about, for shame.

As christ my witness I shall never poison the well again!

[Shanty Oilish]

34. JanMichael

You might think I was answering in kind, since the question you posed insinuates that the "haves" have to explain themselves to the "have nots." Looking over this thread I note that quite a few folks are decidedly unashamed of their good fortune.
Get the mousetrap off your fingers and quit being so touchy! :)

[JanMichael]

36. But, but, DC...I'm a future heir of a significant sum!

And right now, right this minute, I'm a "Have" not a "Have not"!

But yet I see a seventh of my fellow humans living in squaller and I can't reconcile it. Can you? From what you've said I included an appropriate catagory for you, did you vote?

As to "touchy" I would expect an heiress to be quite the touchy one on a Progressive board full of a bunch of godless socialists!:-)...Just a thought...Mainly gleened through recalling your comments on some rather Leftist threads:-)

[Shanty Oilish]

41. I'm too much of a Lady to reply here, I'll just pm your ass

after I put my diamonds away. :P

[Shakeydave]

47. Unnnnnnnnggggggggghhhhhhhhhh!

Sorry I got lost in thinking about being PM'd on the ass!

[JanMichael]

49. You mean up my SantayanASS!

Animal Ethics are no answer to today's modern, non-zoo-alistic, quandry:evilgrin:

I mean no real disrespect but the issues are real and in-action is in-humane IMHO.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark Can WIN]

37. Yeah, I'm fortunate. I have a a house with heat and air and

some space for a nice vegetable garden. My refrigerator is only empty when I have put off going to the grocery store for too long. When I go there I can buy what I need and also what I would like too. If I want hot water it is there. I don't have to worry about whether I will eat tomorrow, not anymore. There was a time when I lived in a tiny apartment under an overpass and ate the remains of other peoples meals, scraped from the plates in the resturaunt where I worked. I did know hunger then and let me tell you real hunger is not the thing that most people think it is. Real hunger is not felt in your midsection but screams from every cell in your body. It's a nasty, nasty thing.

What changed? I got up every day and I kept going. I kept moving till i found something that worked.

I don't really fit into any of your catogories. I don't know what to say.

[JanMichael]

38. I can accept that as a half answer.

I spent time as a child in absolute poverty but was fortunate that my family rose out of that situation, it was none of my doing however.

But what about those that didn't have our good fortune? Perseverance? Is that the only answer? How would you address the reality of our most munificent Nation?

[Clark Can WIN]

52. Isolationism, rolling up the carpet?

Is that what you are pointing towards? You would do better to make your point in honest open language than to work through obfuscation IMO.

[JanMichael]

53. Isolationism? No.

Perhaps, you're relatively new here, you don't know my political philosophy so well. That's ok. I'm a Democratic Socialist, does that give you an better idea as to where my intentions lie?

I really don't think the thread is ambiguous at all. Few have expressed difficulty answering it.

I hope you're ok now!

Now what are you solutions to abject poverty?

I'm rarely intentionally obtuse:-)

[LWolf]

39. I don't know.

On one hand, I have a job that keeps a roof over my head and health insurance, so I am fortunate.

On the other hand, I believe I may have experienced more of the unfortunate side of life, socio/economic level and personal, than many people. Than most of my peers.

Not much of my good fortune comes from circumstance. I wasn't born or raised in it. What good fortune I have came from my mom, who taught me to think, to work hard, and to achieve.

Most of my fortune came from hard experiences. Hard lessons, harder work, and stubborn determination to survive.

Knowing how hard it was and is, and how few people actually make it coming from the bottom level, leaves me supporting systemic change.

[BiggJawn]

42. Who says I got "good fortune"?

Me, I'm working poor, just a paycheck or 2 away from living under a bridge.

What would make it better? a Constitutional ammendment outlawing the Republican party. Just like Germany did with the Nazis.

[fishnfla]

44. there is a solution to poverty

education. everyday I tell people that, every kid I see in the office.

The new stats suck

[Shakeydave]

48. I knew I liked you more than just for fishing!

Well stated!

[catzies]

45. I share as much as I can, whenever and however I can.

I give more as a percentage of my income every year than Dick Cheney does.

[carpetbagger]

51. Don't blame me. I swapped vote, swallowed puke, voted Nader

I went the extra mile to make my Texas vote count.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

54. Feel guilty because others are worse off than you?

Why? Compassion, yes. A desire to help, naturally. But unless you've done something wrong, you don't need to 'rationalize' your good fortune. My good fortune just makes me feel... fortunate.

[JanMichael]

55. Any solutions to the question at hand?

Can you accept your relationship (Nothing is "Independant") to this system?

Isn't our existance dependant on theirs?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

63. I'm sorry.

I'm not trying to be difficult but I don't understand what the three questions you've posed to me mean.


"Any solutions to the question at hand?"

Umm, I thought the question at had was:
"How do you rationalize your good fortune with American Poverty?"

and I don't understand how that is a question that I could have a solution for. I've also avoided the subject of how good my fortune is because I feel it is immaterial. I don't actually feel anymore fortunate now then when I was homeless and eating out of dumpsters. In a way I felt more fortunate then because I had a much more direct relationship with 'fortune' per se than I do now when I work much harder at forcing circumstances to my wishes. But my answer to this question is as it was in my original post. I don't feel a need to rationalize my good fortune. I'm now getting my food from grocery stores instead of grocery store dumpsters. Other people are still hitting the dumpsters. So what's to rationalize? We just try to work towards a world where no one has to do that.

Or am I missing something?

" Can you accept your relationship (Nothing is "Independant") to this system?

Isn't our existance dependant on theirs?"


These two seem to be much the same question. Again I'm not sure exactly what you are asking... if I just take it at face value, it's very simple. Yes and yes.

I guess I can accept my relationship to the system because - gee what else am I gonna do? Anguish my whole life about the fact that I am what I am? I'm trying NOT to do that. We are part of the world, the world is an infinitely recursive set of interlocking systems. Is my existence dependent on 'theirs'? Who? people who are worse off than me? Whatever my status, some are worse off, some better off. So? That's just the way of the world. But I still wonder if I am getting the meaning of your question... are you asking is it neccesary for some to have poverty in order for others to have good fortune? I don't know the answer to that, but I hope it's no.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

56. It is part reincarnation

for good deeds as an earlier person
and part the protestant ethic and spirit
of capitalism.

[REP]

57. Crippling Injury and Fatal Diseases

I'm on disability leave from work. I have significant pain in my dominant arm and no longer have complete use of it, and both conditions are permanent. Additionally, I have significant chronic diseases that may qualify me for SSD. I credit the above to an employer who had insane biomechanic expectations and crappy genes.

[union_maid]

58. I'm doing OK because I had family and friends

Don't get me wrong. I work, my husband works. Since my husband was laid off and his job shipped off to India our gross income is down by one third and we just make enough for a modest lifestyle. Very modest.But he's working and got an opportunity because we knew someone with a business that was doing well. If we hadn't had family to fall back on in bad times when we were younger, we'd be in much worse shape today. Coming from a middle class family means that you probably won't have to live in emergency housing if things get too bad and that in turn means you can continue to work, or look for work if necessary, get training if you need it and do all the other things that get you out of a hole.

My daughter and her family just moved in with us. They never stopped working hard but the cost of an apartment in this area when she was waiting tables instead of working at the management level jobs she'd held in the past just became an insurmountable obstacle. She's got a job in her field now, making a lot less than she did before, but more than waiting tables, but they still need to live here. If they didn't have a family with a home to open to them they could have found themselves in a downward spiral that might be hard to get out of. If, for instance, we'd been reduced to living in Section 8 housing, we wouldn't have been permitted to have them here. My children won't be truly poor because I wasn't and I wasn't because my parents weren't. Poverty breeds poverty because there's no fallback and if things go wrong, there's nowhere to turn.

The biggest thing that could be done for the poor would be to provide them with some stability while they try to get it together. In fact, the opposite is usually what happens. And the federal poverty level is a joke. You can afford food or housing or basic needs on it, but only one of those.

[Booberdawg]

59. I don't know about this.

Any "good fortune" I've had in life was because I worked my butt off, in fact maybe a little harder to overcome more than the usual odds. I'm not sure I really understand this poll - how do I "rationalize" it? I don't. I think I deserve everything I worked hard for. It doesn't bother me that some people have more than me either, for that matter. It's all relative.

So, I didn't vote in this poll.

[Susang]

60. I don't have a job and only have $300 in the bank

But I in no way consider myself poor. I have a computer, lots of nice things, food on the table and pretty much more luxury than 90% of the world. It really helps me to keep this in perspective.

Not everyone can be on Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, even if we wanted to be. Unfortunately, the media focuses on the excess of wealth and not on the lives of less affluent people.

[Rowdyboy]

61. I grew up poor, but we didn't know it...

The kids had enough to eat, but my mom didn't. We received government commodities, didn't go to the dentist, lived day to day with help from my grandparents and relatives who farmed.

People today don't have the luxury of falling back on extended families who would care for them and feed them. The world is much crueler now.

Today, I am not in want. My life is good (middle class/no kids)and I try to spread my good fortune as much as I can. But, yes, I do feel guilt at my good fortune.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

62. My "good fortune" ain't money yet

but it will be. I have nothing to apologize for-- I picked myself up, registered as a business, and went out and started meeting people and making contacts, and within a few days I was getting jobs. What I do I now bill at $45 per hour, and I have earned it, and I deserve it, and anyone here can do the same and more if they have just half the brains I possess! (Less than four months into my venture, I'm already influencing some decisions at a local Chamber Of Commerce office via my technical expertise and opinions. Not bad for a recovered alcoholic, disabled arthritic, no college, middle-aged loner!)

Determination and the willingness to look people in the eye is how my good fortune is coming about. I'll never be rich, and I'll probably never retire, but after six years of idle time, I realize I would never want to retire. But I'm happier and more mentally and physically connected to the world than I have ever been, and best of all I'm my own boss, and that's what I call my good fortune. Money's not even an issue.

What's to rationalize?

[screaming_meme]

64. Call me crazy, but I'm not guilty about NOT being poor

Why should I be? Because other people are poor or are worse off than me? That's stupid.

[fabius]

65. Systemic change is the only solution!

That's why we're Democrats.

Ok donating to charities is a good idea. I'm happy to pay more taxes if the gov't can get its act together to have universal health care, job training, public works programs, etc.

We know how to keep our people prosperous, the Repugs just don't WANT our people to be prosperous. They want us desperate. Otherwise who would work at WalMart?

The big charities can't do it all, as they tell government time and time again. Givernment has a role. Gimme a break!

I've financially comfortable, not worried about it, but a big part of it is luck of the draw - birth, education, circumstances. Despite that I've worked plenty of minimum wage jobs and been on unemployment and food stamps long ago, and realize how bad things can get. With the Bush*t economy we're all just inches from the cliff.

I'm giving my tax cut to Howard Dean to get us rolling toward some real change.

[camero]

66. Ok, here goes it.

I was in absolute poverty as a child and pretty much up to age 29. Have had to sleep on a street by a building a couple of nights because of a domestic violence situation between my mom and stepdad(got kicked out of the house for defending her. Ironic, isn't it?)

At 29, got trained and found a job in trucking, where I saw the vast majority of the country and Canada, and was able to get a good car and own a house. Part hard work and part luck I would guess.

The health care system sent me back into poverty by just looking out for thier profits and not telling me I was at serious risk for diabetes, which ended my career.

I worked hard and paid my taxes, never asking the government for anything besides the hearing aid I got from Voc Rehab to hide my hearing loss so someone would hire me. And when I am really in need of assistance, I'm told pretty much to drop dead.

The "systemic solution", IMHO, is to tie the fates of the rich and poor because you can't have rich people without poor people because money is a limited resource just like oil, food, and water.

Not really planning the economy but putting it in a box and telling American business that if you make your money here on the backs of the American workforce, then you have an obligation to the health and good fortune of the American workforce and not the Chinese or Indian or any other workforce.

I know, it's long, just alot on my mind right now.

[JCMach1]

67. Try 'world' poverty....

IT makes our poor look rich.

[Nikia]

68. I've thought more about your question

I've had trouble answering it. I suppose that the lifestyle I live does come at the expense of low wage earners because I can buy things cheaper. As I said in my earlier most, if we gave everyone a significant raise, most companies would raise prices. As far as my current job, some of you would consider me working poor. I make less than the average college graduate. I got my college degree by the help of the government and the generous donations of alumni from my college. I have been donating for such scholarships so I do not need to feel guilty about that.
I happen to know poor people personally. That enables me to see their pain and help them. If you feel guilty, I suggest that you do the same. If you do not want to be so personal, donate to charities that do a lot of good or for college scholarships.
I am not a materalist. My family background is both poor and relatively rich so I have seen and experienced much. Yes, some day I would like a nice house of my own. I have everything else that I really want now aside from books and cds and a few new clothes per year. Why shouldn't I share? Then again, why am I only letting my poor friend borrow my car while he has his fixed instead of giving it to him. My husband would object but would I if I were alone?
Anyway, I know that I am not in a financial position to end poverty. For you wealthy DUers, if it bothers you, go out and help people. I know that even with millions, you cannot help everyone, but you can make a difference in the lives of several.