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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:29 PM
Original message
How much is the United States to blame for international terrorism?
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Darkhawk32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. A greal deal to blame. n/t
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. how much is a "great deal"
a percentage doesn't necessarily need to be the answer, but explain.
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Darkhawk32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. You can't put a numerical value on it, but it's clear that terrorists....
aren't terrorists because "they hate our freedom". They hate us for our policies regarding Israel, oil, still remembering the Shah, etc.

But above all is that we support the oppressive regimes in the M.E. (e.g. Saudi Royal Family), which keep them in desperate poverty.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:42 PM
Original message
Bush's reasons for why they hate us are childish
I'll always say that. However, one can disagree with our policies regarding Israel and the Saudi Royals without killing three thousand innocent civilians. One can disagree with what we're doing in Iraq without driving a beat up Peugot into the middle of Baghdad and killing more innocent Iraqis than the "occupiers". Hatred of policies and actions don't have to end in violence. Our policies may be provocative, but it takes a very primitive mind to go that next mile and kill a bunch of people as a response. In my opinion.
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Darkhawk32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
22. I know one can disagree with our policies without violence.... n/t
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
93. Now imagine that you have no recourse to any other "method" to be heard
because your leaders are not elected...they are in cahoots with the US, who supports them in keeping you marginalized. So, no democratic process. No power.

Then along comes some pissed off guy with money (OBL) and he'll help you find a way to get a voice. It's not going to happen with diplomacy because the US won't recognize you. It's not going to happen through public discourse within your regime, which is corrupt and has no qualms about killing, torturing anyone they feel to be a threat.

Not only that...but you've grown up seeing nothing but violence. Dead bodies in the streets, while not something you relish, is not a new sight for you. You grow up knowing that life can be brutish and short. You hope for better. How will you achieve that?

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ConfuZed Donating Member (856 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sometimes I think they are the cause.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. who is "they"
if you're refering to the terrorists, i'm more inclined to agree with you.

if you're talking about America, i'm less inclined to believe we're the root cause of it, or we share most of the blame.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. How do we or don't we share the blame?
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. i believe we share the blame
this isn't as cut and dry as someone being raped (the victim is always innocent). I don't believe America shares most of the blame however. If any one country deserves a lot of blame for the unrest in the middle east, it would have to be the British. Their Balfour Declaration led to the creation of Israel. Their colonialism split the region up into nations forcing people who don't get along to live with one another. It may not be popular to say so close to the attacks in London, but historically, the British have fucked up a lot of places.
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jasmeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. How often do the terrorist say "Death to Britain"?
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. because, unlike the British, we've kept our presence there
but which country had the Balfour Declaration? Lawrence of Arabia was from which country? Which country led the Crusades? You go down the line, and it's been the British who started to stir the shit pot more than any other nation with regards to the Middle East.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. well that shows
that people have short memories and that a change in policy now might pay dividends in the not too distant future.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
42. Where did you get the idea that Britain led
the crusades? The Pope of that time called for the crusades. However I think that most of us had ancestors who were involved in the crusades in one form or another. When it comes to who is to blame - I would say all of the above! We are oil junkies to the extent that we need their oil to survive. But so does most of the rest of the world. I just got done reading "The Long Emergency" and there are a lot of reasons why they may hate us for the way (extravagantly) we live, because they see our demand for their oil as a negative changing factor in their lives. It is a very complex issue and it extents as far back as those crusades.

Then add the difference in culture. We want only one thing from them and I am willing to bet that there is little respect between the two parties. It is kind of like the deals we made with Native Americans for land, etc. We didn't win any hearts and minds there either.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #42
90. And virtually all of those deals were broken by the U.S. government.
This country does not have a good track record of sharing resources or being fair to all, despite the prevalent and oh-so-wrong myth of how great we are.

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greblc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
45. And our nation was born of Britain.
Our founding fathers had Imperial notions the same as the crown. Today the same line of thinking manifests itself in the quest for Oil Rights. Our greed has brought us to where we are today. What if oil profits had been shared with the populous of the mideast when we first started to draw oil from that region?
What if we had been successful in Israeli /Palestinian Peace agreements. (Bush has put little effort into this one)

It is easier to maintain Peace than to try and create it.

But Bush sends thousands of troops rather than work for or attend any Peace talks.

He is a Lazy & Arrogant Man. And our Country chose him twice!
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. we chose him once
he was forced upon us the first time
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #50
91. ...and very probably the second time, too.
NT!

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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
94. Historically I think you are right, but in the short term -- our policies,
have not been so terrific either. You don't have to look so very far back to see the US doing absolutely horrible things in the middle east, for the sake of keeping access to that lovely black humvee juice.
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jasmeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Do you think our policies contribute to the increase in
terrorism within the last couple of years?
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. I think our policies have further provoked the childish
and simean minds of people like Osama bin Laden and al-Zarqawi.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. That's pretty funny
If you are to believe the United States Government those "Simian minds" successfully attacked the financial and military capitals of the United States utterly fooling the entire American national security establishment. So who's the ape?
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Bin Laden has an engineering degree... as do some of his
associates. Simean my arse. Don't be surprised when you use people and then they turn on you.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
58. You need to see this......
http://www.networkworld.com/research/2001/1126featside4.html

Terrorist organizations worldwide cover the entire spectrum when it comes to technical savvy, according to Jay Hetherington, a 33-year veteran of the CIA who managed the National Signals Intelligence Department. High-ranking members of Al Qaeda - some of whom are doctors, computer scientists and mathematicians - are on the top end of that spectrum. Many security analysts say bin Laden, formally schooled in economics and business management, has excellent computer skills.

Far from laying low in mountain hideouts, Al Qaeda leaders have set up businesses that serve as fronts to buy needed technology, send messages, cover up Al Qaeda-related travel and raise money to fight their global Jihad.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #58
92. Indeed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't al Zawahiri a medical doctor?
Simians tend to flunk out of med school...

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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
95. Nice.....we're back to the "savages" (them) and the noble-minded (us)?
Edited on Sat Jul-16-05 09:38 PM by sojourner
Pretty much just the way it was back in the Crusades. Genetic memory, perhaps?

edited to make sense! d'oh!
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ConfuZed Donating Member (856 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
81. Sorry I didn't clarify myself
When I said "they" I meant our government.
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. The percentage that voted for Bush (nt)
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. It's interesting
if you contrast/compare the way the French and British were fought in the Muddle East during the original wave of colonialism. A lot of quick brushfire wars, raids, and attacks, but, then again, back then there was a lot less of a gap between the technology of the invaders and the technology of those who were fighting them.

Guerilla warfare--the hit and run tactics--are only so much use against a strongly fortified occupier. Had the government gone to the trouble of armoring the vehicles sufficiently, and providing the soldiers with an adequate amount of personal armor, we'd probably have seen a lot less casualties on our side.

Putting aside the notion of our neo-colonialism, and the nearly unwavering support we've shown Israel, we're left with a contrast between the way they used to fight invaders/colonists/occupiers and the way they're forced to fight them now.

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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
9. 100%
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. Wrong question. How much are the global corporate elite to blame?
Since poverty and inequality are at the root of the hatred, the global elite and their henchmen the IMF/WTO are 100% to blame.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Rubbish
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jasmeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. What's rubbish?
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Garbage
Please stop dragging 1930s socialism into the 21st century.

This is not a 'worker's rights campaign' or a protest over the Triangle shirt factory.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. Fine.
Sneer and put your denegrating labels on the poverty and inequality issue and then you can ignore it.

When the global elite make the laws to take resources away from citizens of other nations for their own personal gain, I am sure you believe those nations are happy to live on $2/day in order that Shell and the Carlyle Group etal have fat wallets.

I bet the Iraqis were happy to hear about the meeting of global corporates bidding on the privatization of Iraqi assets.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. Sorry, not doing that
And as soon as you stop blaming everything on some mythical 'global elite' you might get somewhere.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. Mythical?
Appears you are just being antagonistic just for the fun of it.

Done now. Have a nice day.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. 'Eliteism' is such a handy
punching bag is it not?

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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
53. Do you really think the workers over in those other
countries are satisfied with the wages they get? They are people and they are not that much different than we are. Also it is not socialism to criticize unfair labor practices and to recognize that those practices make enemies. Even the Bible tell the bosses to pay fair wages in Proverbs. Were they socialists?
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #53
63. Yes, they are
They'll want more as time goes on, but at the moment those wages beat starving to death.

And your protectionism will cut off even that much of a wage.

All in the name of 'fairness' of course.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
82. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Mmmm noooo, it's called disagreeing
Something you're supposed to be defending in the world...freedom and all that?

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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Actually, I agree with you 100%
It is rarely "the people" of a nation that engage in acts of oppression toward other nations. It is ALWAYS the rich and powerful who are the root cause of all war and destruction of less powerful nations. Most rational people believe that the only reason to go to war is to defend oneself from the aggressor.

The rich and powerful start wars to become more rich and powerful.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Who votes them in?
Who waves the flag? Who engages in 'America first' rhetoric no matter which party they are.

Don't pretend it's some vague 'rich and powerful' ....it's you.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. Uh, nobody voted these guys in - they stole the election just like
in every totalitarian coup throughout history. And its NOT me or anybody else on this board, so I suggest you go over to that other place and spew your hatred of everything American, because you are wasting your time preaching to the converted.

Why don't you do something constructive instead of bashing the United States and those of us who are trying to make a differnce. Your bitterness and hatred are getting pretty tiresome.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
46. You voted them in
YOU as a country.

Don't be blaming anyone else.

YOU did it. You solve it
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:04 PM
Original message
No one gets voted into the global elite. Money buys the way in.
And the global elite is not tied to a nation, they just use nations' laws to make sure the control of resources remain in their hands.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
47. Ah yes, that mysterious 'global elite'
Is it the Jews this time? Or some new crowd?

But always...some mystical group controlling your life hmmmm?
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. bingo....
Edited on Sat Jul-16-05 08:32 PM by mike_c
U.S. foreign policy is primarily aimed at protecting and enhancing corporate profits, usually on the backs of poor people. That system is utterly dependent upon maintaining social injustice. One thing I'd add-- the corporate elite do not bear sole responsibility. Most of us labor at consumption, keeping the demand for their services high. We go to bed with full bellies in the U.S. largely because ten times as many people are kept on the verge of starvation elsewhere. On the other hand, we too are manipulated to maintain that situation.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Oh enough with the rhetoric
This is NOT the Depression, and the 'revolution' is dead.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. that's a pretty U.S.-centric perspective....
Edited on Sat Jul-16-05 07:58 PM by mike_c
It IS in fact "the Depression" in nations who pay more to service their debt to the World Bank or the IMF-- which ultimately means debt to private sector investment banks-- than they can afford for health care, or education, or the elimination of poverty. And as for "the revolution" being dead, tell that to Gonzalo Sanchez de Lozada.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
55. ahh good-- let's just be rude with one another instead....
Edited on Sat Jul-16-05 08:19 PM by mike_c
I got yer hole in the ground right here, chuckles....

on edit-- I can't help noticing that you've peppered this thread with a lot of blunt assertions, but very little in the way of substantive discussion.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Not trying to be rude
but the Depression didn't occur in just the US.

And I use blunt assertions to counter blunt assertions.

It seems to be an article of faith on here that you can blame corporations for everything that's ever happened in the world from day one.

Nothing else matters but US corporations apparently.

Root of all evil.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #59
88. No, actually, it's Canadian corporations that are the root of all evil.
There, are you happy now? Canada finally got some recognition.
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wookie294 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
57. You're right
America has a military presence (large or small) in 70 percent of the world's countries. That's insane. And the primary purpose is to protect corporate profits in some of the most brutal and oppressive countries. Halliburton has contracts with the Iranian government. I wonder how many people know that. It's all about corporate profit for people who make foreign policy.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. It isn't just about corporations
it's about each and every American.
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wookie294 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. I agree, but corporations get the biggest benefit from ruthless policies
Condi Rice admitted this year that the USA is pretty lame on human rights issues. You might find this story interesting....

A United States historic admission: we did not support freedom and democracy; decided to change this policy

Regional-USA, Politics, 5/28/2005

US Secretary Condoleezza Rice, At the Commonwealth Club, in San Francisco, yesterday acknowledged in a speech and repeated her remarks that the United States of America in the last 60 years has not supported human rights in the Middle East. She said that United States has decided to change this policy saying that the United States had in the "60 years that we had had a policy of essentially ignoring the 'freedom deficit' in the Middle East and in the broader Middle East was giving us neither stability nor democracy. And so from our point of view, there isn't a conflict between national security and the promotion of democracy; they are one and the same."

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/050528/2005052839.html

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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. And who benefits from corporations?
YOU do.

You and every other American.
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wookie294 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. I have a corporation of my own
I have no problem with corporations. I've met alot of people like yourself who have this neurotic need to say "Yeah but corporations are good!" LOL. Give it up, already. This is not about "corporations." It's about ruthless foreign policies designed to protect corporate profits abroad that cause TERRORISM.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. So do I
so I don't see 'corporations' as evil-doers.

They're just a collection of people.

Corporations exist all over the world in fact...but they don't start 'terrorism'. Only American ones appear to.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #64
86. That's total bullshit and you know it.
Edited on Sat Jul-16-05 09:15 PM by smirkymonkey
It's amazing how you use sweeping generalizations against ALL Americans, but you'd be the first person to jump on somebody else (especially if they're from the US) if they ever insinuated that all people in other nations were one big monolithic mass with such single-minded purpose.

And you are clueless about the purpose and practice of large corporations. American business does not operate in a vacuum.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
66. Thanks for cutting through the crap right to the root of the problem. n/t
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #66
75. Yeah, 'blame somebody else'
That's the root of the problem.

It's never me...it's that other guy.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #75
109. No... Not "somebody else"
just the selfish ones who are more concerned with condoning & supporting the plunder while innocently pretending they have nothing to do with it & that it's all the fault of those damned Republican Yankees. You know, the ones who sit back and happily profit from the imposition of un-free trade and the appropriation of the world's water/food supplies pretending that their hands aren't dripping with as much blood... The entire Anglo-imperialist bloc, aka the coalition of the VERY willing of which Canada is a part: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/operations/altair/index_e.asp / http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/03/27/cdnsoldiers030327 You know... the "whack em and stack em" crowd that will grab the first scapegoat it can thinking that will divert attention from the truth.

Tu Brutus.

Most of us at DU have accepted that this government does not speak for us and that in no way will we support what it does. Most of us are horrified by the plunder of other people's resources for the benefit of the North American Bloc.

E tu?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
65. Bingo. Funny how the selfish who back obscenities like WTO
can't seem to get it through their heads that the rest of the world is not going to sit back idly while they loot & plunder.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. It's not an obscenity
nor is it a way to 'loot and plunder'

This is pure fairy tale
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. So you think the WTO is a good thing. eh?
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Who invented it?
Who runs it?

It didn't happen by magic, nor does it stay in place by magic
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #73
85. You seem determined to defend it.
Let's hear your defense.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. Blame is such a harsh word
and the turmoil that our "government" has created over the decades is something that they(collectively) are actually proud of,so blame is not really the word I would use.

Responsible for is a more appropriate term.

Our government does so much pure evil, in our names, and yet they know we will never really hold them accountable.

They create nasty little treaties that seem innocuous at first glance, but later (long after the signers are out of office) rear up and bite us in the ass (VietNam ring a bell?)

They horns-waggle barely-literate people out of the only things of value they have..their land, their natural resources, their water, the sweat of their brow...and our leaders claim to do it as an altruistic gesture.

They send our soldiers to every part of the globe to intervene in difficulties that their puppet-dictators get themselves into.

They often take the wrong side in a civil disturbance in a country, which leaves lingering hatred that lasts for generations.

Usually the people who suffer, are many times removed from any level of control.

and we wonder why most of the world dislikes us..and some swear at us under every breath they take

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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
97. (Off topic) Great pic.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
14. In my growing cynicism, I think that our actions internationally
are largely responsible for creating the conditions ripe for terrorism, however I also think that if it wasn't us it would be another nation doing exactly the same thing. In fact, in another decade or so, it just may be China or Russia or Korea with the military might to out-Empire us on the global stage.

I also think that the "terrorists" would probably find some other way to act out violently - even if we pulled out of the ME entirely. I really don't have a lot of hope for human society. We happen to be the bad guys now, but that will change in time. Who knows, it might be Amercian terrorists committing acts of terrorism in China in another 10 to 20 years.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. I think the answer depends on what you mean...
Edited on Sat Jul-16-05 07:51 PM by mike_c
...by "international terrorism." Omitting state sponsored terrorism, terrorism is often the best tactic available to people oppressed by vastly superior forces, against whom direct confrontation is not only suicidal, but largely ineffectual. Certainly the U.S. has created oppressive political conditions all over the world-- U.S. foreign policy is brutally efficient at protecting the profits of U.S. corporations and sanctioning the rule of despots who ally themselves to U.S. interests, usually economic interests. The interests of the United States are almost always advanced to the detriment of poor people all over the world. To the extent that U.S. policy has created or maintained poverty and social injustice, the U.S. shares responsibility for the international terrorism that results. In other instances the U.S. is more directly responsible-- al-Qaida is a good example, since the U.S. fostered, armed, and supplied the mujahideen that became al-Qaida during the 1970's and '80's, as is the consequences steming from the invasion and occupation of Iraq. That's my $0.02.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. Well, you asked!
Let's see - here's the tip of the iceberg:

Which country firebombed Tokyo and killed 51% of the civilian population?

Which country trained and funded the mujahadeen in Afghanistan?

Citizens of which country funded the Stern Gang and the Irgun?

What nation currently occupies the country with the second largest oil reserves in the world and is responsible for the deaths of thousands of its people?

Which country currently occupies the nation with the best routes to the sea from the energy rich Central Asian nations and has killed thousands of its innocent civilians?

Which nation is the first and only one to use nuclear weapons on a civilian population?

Terrorism? Fear? Which country had an bombing campaign named "shock and awe?"

Which country? Yes, the United States. Yeah, I'd say we bear some responsibility.
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bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
27. If the United States wasn't around, terrorism would still exist.
I feel the reasons people commit themselves to terrorism is because they feel like they have no other options against an authority figure which hold a lot of cards.

In each general section of the world (eastern/western europe, middle east, south east asia, central america etc) there are groups of people that don't like the way they are ruled. Sometimes civil protest will take care of the issues they have, voting out the corrupt officers, revolutions, and terrorism.

Terrorism I think is logically the last step. Once civil options don't work, and the organization isn't present to execute a revolution, terrorism is the quickest way to make a point. It takes fewer people, less organization, and it makes a statement.

So I think there would still be a lot of terrorism even without the United States in the picture. With that being said, I understand that the United States has probably created a good deal off pissed off people with some of their international policies.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. It was the British empire
that caused trouble before the Americans.

And the Romans before them.

Why did you have to keep doing the same dumb things??
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bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. well, I think it's what people do as a group.
I hate to say it but like you said, throughout history all empires have done it. It's not just empires that do it either. Take ANY social group and you will have a pecking order, that pecking order inherently will place someone at the top and someone(or some group) at the bottom. I would think there would be very few social settings that didn't conform to this mold. Once that happens all it takes is for the person at the bottom of the pile to get a little fed up.

It doesn't make it right but I feel thats the way it is. The most we can hope for is to learn as a group to not keep perpetuating the same mistakes.

"Why did you have to keep doing the same dumb things??"

Well, it's not like I woke up this morning and whipped the slaves before annexing the neighborhood down the street.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. But you're not an Empire
And please leave the 'class warfare' in the 19th century where it belongs.
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bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #44
56. I'm not talking class warfare...and please leave the condecension
where it belongs.

Just because I talk of a hierarchy doesn't mean I'm talking class warfare. What do you think starts terrorism?
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #56
68. Social group? Hierarchy? Pecking order?
Sounds like 'class warfare' to me.

Gee, I dunno what starts 'terrorism'

Perhaps countries invading and taking over other countries or cultures?

Basque, IRA, Tamils, Al Qaeda....?
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #56
74. Best to not feed them
You will not get any rational discussion, just a bunch of bait-riddled sneers.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. No sorry, you aren't dealing with trolls
or freepers.

Just someone who is sick and tired of the same old...'it isn't me, it's somebody else' line of hooey.

It isn't winning you any elections either I notice.

And the world could really do with you getting your act together, and beating the Repubs.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. Have a nice day
throw your bait elsewhere

not biting
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. You too
Perhaps you'll find some site where no one disagrees with you.

You won't get anywhere politically, but you'll have a fine time slapping each other on the back.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
98. as a spin-off from Britain having declared and then fought to win our
independence, we went about repeating history because we "disowned" all that collective memory. While Britain and much of Romanized Europe have "evolved" within the context of their history, we've brashly gone out and repeated the same mistakes our "fathers" made.

Kind of like the rebellious kid of the now wiser parent. Can't tell 'em a thing...gotta learn for themselves.
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ChiDem Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
30. All that hate started
when the repubs planted the terrorist seed and installed the Shah, today that seed has now become a mighty tree.

That and support for Israel.
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wookie294 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
32. America's oil war with Muslims was started by Eisenhower
Sept. 11 was a counter-attack.

Eisenhower began America's oil war with Muslims after the CIA organized and financed the overthrow of Iran's DEMOCRATIC government in 1954. It set off a chain of events that led to the bombing of Pan Am 103, Sept. 11, the hijack of TWA-847 and thousands of other terror attacks against the West. You can read about it on the CIA's website at this link....

http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol48no2/article10.html

Most terror attacks occur in Latin America. U.S. banks and oil companies play a large role in perpetuating poverty in Latin America and thereby creating terrorism.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
99. I don't know about any links to recent events, other than the Iran
Edited on Sat Jul-16-05 09:58 PM by pinto
US hostage incident, but you have a good point. Here's a great recent history of the anti - Mossadegh coup in Iran - "All the Shah's Men", by Stephen Kinzer.
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
33. almost all of it
It probably varies by region but apart from a few areas the US has a hand in almost all of it.
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Todd B Donating Member (809 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
35. It's cause and effect -
I think it is childish to say that the United States isn't to blame for international terrorism ("they hate us for our freedom").

It goes without saying that nothing just happens - for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I think that, because we are essentially the world's largest military power, we are generally (and sometimes justifiably so) seen as being arrogant and aggressive with regards to our foreign policy.

I agree with the poster in this thread that much of what we criticize other nations for doing, we have done in the past (or are still doing): building/using nuclear weapons, bullying other nations, carrying out attacks on other nations etc.

However, I don't condone (like most of us) either side opposing either sides policies with attacks against civilians and civilian targets.
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BrendaStarr Donating Member (491 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
39. AP Report: London Bombers Were Angered by War in Iraq

    LEEDS, England (AP) - Shahzad Tanweer, the 22-year-old son of a Pakistani-born affluent businessman, turned to Islam, the religion of his birth, a few years ago. The transformation was gradual, but then his relentless reading of the Quran and daily prayers became almost an obsession, his friends told The Associated Press. He became withdrawn and increasingly angry over the war in Iraq, according to those who knew him best.

    The U.S.-led war was what likely drove him to blow himself up on a subway train last week, said his friends.

    ...

    Some people said Hussain became more religious two years ago but never abandoned his boyhood friends for radicals.

    ...

    Maroof Latif, an unemployed Beeston resident, said he knew Khan since he was a child and believes if he took part in the terrorist bombings of the subways it was because of his anger over the war in Iraq and the U.S.-British occupation.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5142754,00.html

Writing an article myself on terrorism the other day I decide to check exactly what was in that fatwa that bin Laden put out in 1998 which was said was a big reason for the 9/11 attacks. I remember the news media saying that Osama was upset mainly about bases in Saudi Arabia.

Not so. He mentions the bases, but puts them into context that they had been used to attack the Muslim world. How you say? I guess you don't know about the many times that the US tried to get armed insurrection going in Iraq (and the fatwa mentions Iraq being attacked) during the 90s. There were also the repeated bombing attacks.

The US has also been way too supportive to some of Israels more abusive leaders, one who is currently in office today. The man should be held with Milosevic, not in charge of a nation.

The CIA recognized the problems of blowback, warned about it if we went into Iraq and then showed that Iraq is turning into a terrorist haven that is worse than Afghanistan was. The 9/11 hearings brought out a comment from someone that before 9/11 the terrorist camps of Afghanistan were churning out more terrorist agents than the CIA and FBI could turn out counter terrorist agents. But the Republicans made such a brouhaha after the 1998 bombings of the camps that it was politically unfeasible to repeat them.

Want some more. How about their support for the House of Saud in return for cheap oil prices.

Or how Bush helped set up the 7/7 bombings in London by spewing classified information last year to steal the thunder from the Democratic Party Convention. Juan Cole has that at: http://www.juancole.com/2005/07/london-bombing-egypt-pakistan-and.html

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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #39
76. They get the "Duh" award for realizing this two years too late.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
40. List of U.S. foreign interventions since 1945 (some would call terrorism)
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
51. Revolutions don't happen in a vacuum. We are reaping the worldwind.
The wretched of the earth have become weary of financing the rich nations.

Al-queda is the tip of the iceberg.
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wookie294 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
52. Pentagon admits it has caused terrorism
NOTHING NEW HERE....

US admits the war for ‘hearts and minds’ in Iraq is now lost

Pentagon report reveals catalogue of failure
By Neil Mackay, Investigations Editor

THE Pentagon has admitted that the war on terror and the invasion and occupation of Iraq have increased support for al-Qaeda, made ordinary Muslims hate the US and caused a global backlash against America because of the “self-serving hypocrisy” of George W Bush’s administration over the Middle East.

The mea culpa is contained in a shockingly frank “strategic communications” report, written this autumn by the Defence Science Board for Pentagon supremo Donald Rumsfeld.

On “the war of ideas or the struggle for hearts and minds”, the report says, “American efforts have not only failed, they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended”.

more...

http://www.sundayherald.com/46389
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #52
71. It didn't take a rocket scientist to see this coming.... using
propaganda to secure your ends... certainly doesn't play well in the rest of the "civilized world" either. People ate this up like Swiss chocolate.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0906-01.htm
According to MacArthur's book "Second Front," the first mention of babies being removed from incubators appeared in the Sept. 5 edition of the London Daily Telegraph. The paper ran a claim by the exiled Kuwait housing minister that, "babies in the premature unit of one of the hospitals had been removed from their incubators, so that these, too, could be carried off." Two days later, the LA Times carried a Reuter's story that quoted an American (first name only) who said, among other things, that babies were being taken from incubators, although she herself had not seen it happen.

From there it began to pick up steam, as one media unit after another started repeating the story without checking it. Sensing an opening, the Hill & Knowlton people jumped on the story.

The key moment occurred on October 10, when a young woman named Nayirah appeared in front of a congressional committee. She told the committee, "I saw the Iraqi soldiers come into the hospital with guns, and go into the room where 15 babies were in incubators. They took the babies out of the incubators, took the incubators and left the babies on the cold floor to die."

Hill & Knowlton immediately faxed details of her speech to newsrooms across the country, according to CBC's Fifth Estate's documentary. The effect was electric. The babies in incubator stories became a lead item in newspapers, and on radio and TV all over the US.

It is interesting that no one – not the congressmen in the hearing, or any journalist present – bothered to find out the identity of the young woman. She was the daughter of Kuwait's ambassador to the United States, and actually hadn't seen the "atrocities" she described take place. (When later confronted with the lack of evidence for her claims, the young woman said that she hadn't been in the hospital herself, but that a friend who had been there had told her about it.)

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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
78. The knowledge of what has been going on is not new knowledge
I remember reading a book, "The Ugly American" way back in the mid 60's, it was on a list in high school of stuff to read.

I think though to many of us boomers, the lesson of this book, doing right, was more or less lost to the idea that although crummy stuff was done, in our name, that many overlooked the crimes in national self-interest.

In some way, I think thats what going on today how people can compartmentalize the bombing of civilian cities as being legal war, when in truth it is terrorism on a far bigger scale than some single terrorist suiciding in an enemy territory killing the enemy civilians.

The Geneva Convention is a clear indicator of what is a legal war, and what is a illegal war. Bu$h has taken our country far across the line into illegality. So has Blair.

And it IS our collective responsibility to bring him to justice. We as citizens of this country have an obligation to bring him to justice or suffer the same consequences when justice is forthcoming for the action of our leaders.

There is street justice in this world. Count on it.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Now THAT I'll agree with
This isn't new, and it could have been dealt with a long time ago.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #79
87. Ward Churchill was correct.
Even though he prolly shouldn't have included his "littel Eichmans" comment the rest of his rant was correct. Yeah, hey may not be the best example of a spokesperson for the left, however that does not invalidate his theme.

btw I did not vote for the Bush Regime and neither did around 49 Million other Americans.

Terrorism is a tactic that has been practiced for a few thousand years. Americans here in the USA have practiced it. It will continue to be utilized and nothing can stop this. I do not condone or support this tactic, period.

For those that have never read the following I suggest that you slog through it. It may increase your understanding.

Osama Letter


In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory"

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan." Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?

Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you? As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you?

The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years.

The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel.

The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily. (ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history.

The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon. (c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question: Why did they attack us in New York and Washington? If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all. It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest. We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object. Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws. What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you. If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise."

The Nation of honour and respect: "But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers."

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers"

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life: "Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers."

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised: "It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it."

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty."

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance. If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace.

If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy. This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?







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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
89. A lot.
Britons Say Iraq Support Left Country Vulnerable
72 per cent of respondents believe Britain’s role in Iraq made the country more vulnerable to attack by Islamic terrorists.

China Image Scores Better Than U.S.

Support for the U.S.-led war on terror has dipped in European countries like Britain, France, Germany, Canada and Spain, while it remains low in the Muslim countries surveyed like Pakistan, Turkey and Jordan.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/06/23/national/a110236D49.DTL

'War on terror' losing support

Support for the US-led war on terrorism has been falling even among some of the United States' closest allies, an international poll found.

Support for the Iraq war is even lower.

In most of the countries surveyed, people rejected President George W. Bush's claim that removing Saddam Hussein from power has made the world safer.
http://www.news24.com/News24/AnanziArticle/0,,1518-1785_1726500,00.html

CIA: Iraq now a bigger terrorist threat than Afghanistan/binLaden
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050622/pl_nm/security_iraq_cia_dc

US Figures Show Sharp Global Rise In Terrorism
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/26/AR2005042601623.html

United States: Losing the War on Terror
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/terrorwar/analysis/2004/aprilharder.htm

Evidence that the US May Be Losing the Global War on Terror
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1501

US: Three Years On, War on Terrorism Looks Like a Loser
http://ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=25437

”We have a stronger jihadi presence in Iraq today than in March 2003,” noted Roger Cressey, the former director for Transnational Threats in Bush's National Security Council at a briefing at the libertarian Cato Institute earlier this week.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0911-01.htm

The 'War on Terrorism': Winning or Losing? Losing.
http://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/publications/briefings/winningorlosing.htm

Terror threat to US called 'significant' - Apr 27, 2005
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/27/terror.report /

Global terror attacks triple in 2004
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0428/dailyUpdate.html

Worldwide terrorism-related deaths on the rise
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5889435%20 /

US Losing the War on Terror in Iraq; The invasion of Iraq has increased, not decreased, the threat of terrorist attack
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article2629.html

Occupation Made World Less Safe, Pro-War Institute Says
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/terrorwar/analysis/2004/0526iissreport.htm

Iraq Invasion Hurt War on Terror
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0719-10.htm

Musharraf: World more dangerous because of Iraq War
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/25/03544/7945

Blix Says Iraq War May Have Worsened Terror Threat
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0319-02.htm

Poll: Aussies, Brits, Italians say Iraq war increased terrorism
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1576/5027215.html

Iraq intervention increased threat of terrorism
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/archive/scoop/stories/c7/9d/200409100845.68f9c878.html

UK Government; Iraq war 'increased terror threat'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3451239.stm

Iraq war has swollen ranks of al Qaeda
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1063717,00.html

US State Department Corrects Report to Show Rise in Terrorism
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5264512 /

Iraq has become a terrorist spawning ground, CIA admits
http://www.smh.com.au/news/After-Saddam/Iraq-a-terrorist-spawning-ground-CIA-admits/2005/02/17/1108609349394.html?oneclick=true

Iraq Conflict Feeds International Terror Threat
http://www.skyhen.org/Focus/iraqcoverage/cia_iraq_conflict_feeds_international_terror_threat.php
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
96. We Americans touch a raw nerve with many other peeps
in Nations beyond our borders.

They see us using energy like there is no tomorrow. They see us using fuel to race our Cars, Trucks, Bikes, Monster Trucks, Boats, Airplanes, etc etc.

They see a Rich and Spoiled Society, Jaded with Pleasures and Food.

They are developing the ALAMIHI SYNDROME.....the story of a bucket of crabs 1/2 full. Just when a crab reaches the top edge of the bucket, the others pull him back.....this way no one escapes....or in our case...we all suffer together....


and of course for other reasons as well. The above is only a small chip....
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #96
103. Well, yes & no.
There is always going to be some amount of Anti-Americanism which is against the global spread of rap music, McDonalds, Hollywood blockbusters etc.

But that's not really the major problem as most kids around the world like Eminem, like burgers and action movies (I have muslim relatives abroad so I know that kids everywhere like pretty much the same stuff).

The problem is that the US seems to be now totally above the law and doesn't seem to want to follow any international laws in any way, shape or form (leading to illegal war, torture etc). And this attitude is totally out in the open and centre stage (i.e the current administration).

That's what's caused Anti-Americanism to skyrocket.
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
100. Wingnuts have always objected to foreign aid.
Edited on Sat Jul-16-05 10:36 PM by Xap
They say it is throwing money out the window and helping potential enemies. In reality they're just greedy as hell and can't stand the thought of helping somebody less fortunate.

Consequently over the past decades the U.S. has probably done much less than it could have to alleviate squalid conditions around the world in places now referred to as the "breeding grounds of terrorism", etc.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
101. Not as much as the individual terrorists are. They always bear
primary responsibility.

To say otherwise denies their own moral agency and treats them as less than human.

US policy has been flawed--no secret there. But terrorism is a practice which can't be excused or fully explained by US policy.
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wookie294 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-16-05 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. The U.S. acted as ''terrorists'' in Japan
We were taught that dropping the atom bomb on innocent people in Japan was "necessary" because it saved "thousands" of American soldiers. But Truman and the American people acted as "terrorists" when the bomb was dropped -- if you define terrorism as the murder of civilians or noncombatants.

Many people in the military opposed dropping the bomb on Japan, something we didn't learn in high school. Gen. Dwight Eisenhower actually opposed nuking Japan! Check out these quotes....

"Japan was already defeated .... dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary .... I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives." – Dwight Eisenhower

http://fair.org/extra/9504/enola-gay.html

http://hnn.us/readcomment.php?id=16163

“this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were of no material assistance in our war against Japan.” -- Admiral William D. Leahy, 5-star admiral, president
of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff

"MacArthur once spoke to me very eloquently about it .... He thought it a tragedy that the Bomb was ever exploded.” – Richard M. Nixon

“The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell...." -- Gen. Henry H. Arnold, Commanding General of the US Army Air Forces.

“the atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all." -- Major General Curtis E. LeMay, US Army Air Forces (at a press conference, September 1945).

"I, too, felt strongly that it was a mistake to drop the atom bombs, especially without warning." – Rear Admiral Richard Byrd.

"The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment .... It was a mistake ever to drop it .... (the scientists) had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it .... It killed a lot of Japs, but the Japs had put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before." -- Admiral William "Bull" Halsey, commander of the Third Fleet

http://hnn.us/comments/7362.html
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Dark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
104. There are evil people in every culture.
People who will do anything to acheive their ends. Here, we have Bush. In North Korea, they have Kim Jong Il. In Israel, they torture, as they do in Saudi Arabia. In Palestine, they kill civilians, even teenagers and children.

The United States is no more responsible, nor less responsible than any other nation for causing terrorism. If it wasn't directed at us, it would be directed at someone else. Could be a foreign porwer, or the terrorists' own people. Doesn't matter. Rutheless people would manipulate good people for their own ends.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #104
105. That's quite a fatalistic attitude,
and makes it seem as though terrorism is just random.

It's not random, there are predictable causes and effects in most cases. That's why I expect my country's leader (Tony Blair in my case) to make decisions that will protect his citizens rather than ones that will increase the threat against them.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. It sounds like nobody is responsible except
Ruthless people. Reasonable men could disagree.

Nations are not just some legal abstract that are made to put lines on a map. Nations are living breathing groups of humans that have a common purpose. Like corporations, nations express the will of the top team.

Unlike corporations though, the top team in a democratic nation is elected by the people, all the people in that nation. As such, the people in a nation, all the people, ARE responsible for what that nation does.

The idea that the people are not truly responsible for what a country does, that only 'ruthless' people are the ones that bear the responsibility, is little more than like little children pointing fingers at each other when questioned, "who broke the window"?

If people come to realize that THEY are the ones responsible if our government assassinates another leader, or steals resources from a weaker nation, or slaughters innocent civilians in the name of 'freedom' then this international terrorism will begin to stop. And any future terrorist act will then become a matter criminal enforcement, not a fighting of wars between nations.
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Lecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
107. Yes because of our foreign occupation
Edited on Sun Jul-17-05 10:14 AM by Lecky
I think we encourage terrorism inadvertently by our foreign policies.
I think our foreign military occupation is like a slap in the face, it's humiliating even. It only contributes to the feeling of helplessness and adds further frustration. It's an insult if you think about it, who are we to parent anyone?

The neocons are fucking morons when it comes to fighting terror (and diplomacy in general). I think the idea of forcing "democracy" is beyond ridiculous (not to mention unethical), it fuels terrorism if anything. The United States often comes across as arrogant bullies. Everyone knows why the United States gets involved in Middle Eastern affairs, oil and Israel, and for that we are not trusted. We have a horrible history and the situation in Iraq right now is just adding fuel on to the fire.

It really disturbs me that these grown men and women who run our country and military and can not comprehend this simple fact. Do they really think our occupation will help matters?

I have no idea how we will soothe things over there, is it even possible? It may help if we lose the arrogance and the greed. Not likely as long as Bush is in office, he hasn't a clue wtf is going on and I wouldn't be surprised if he really thinks that they hate us for our freedom and that Islam is the root of all evil. He's a fucking clueless frat boy cheerleader from Texas.

We need to think of ways to be less dependant on oil. As for Israel, the US needs to practice treating Palestinians and other Arabs as equal citizens whose lives carry just as much value as Israeli lives. Do we really send out that message? I don't think so. I found this informative site about geopolitics, it goes into detail about the Middle East and the US...

Israel and Palestine: Criticisms of the US

How do we help the situation over there without coming across as arrogant condescending bullies? This seems to be a challenge for us...
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-17-05 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
108. 75 - 80 % n/t
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