Karl Rove doesn’t hate you.

[Jackpine Radical]

That’s one of his secrets, perhaps his greatest one. Like most true psychopaths, at least ones of the high-functioning variety, Rove is incapable of love or hate. He lives in a world of cold calculation and sees you as an object to be manipulated and moved about for his interests and purposes. To him,normal people’s passions, their ethical principles, their religious values, their very humanity are highly convenient weaknesses that make them predictable and easy to control.

Fear and rage shut down your capacity for complex thinking. The highly aroused person is in an optimal state for dealing with saber-toothed tigers by fleeing, fighting or freezing. But do not ask a person in this state to do mathematics.

Fear is a primal emotion, but one that you cannot sustain forever. Rage is a close relative of fear in physiological terms, but is more stable. That is, anger is a more tolerable emotional state than fear. You can keep someone angry much longer than you can keep them panic-stricken, so anger is a better choice as an emotional state to maintain for the long term in a population you want to control.

Actually, the proper formula for maintaining emotional control over the population is to keep them chronically angry at some scapegoat, and to spike the anger with occasional infusions of panic. To do this, you might, say, engage someone like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, or Bill O’Reilly to maintain a certain level of resentment in the target population, and then to seed the seething outrage with occasional terror alerts and the like. If your enemy will cooperate with a beheading now and then, and maybe drag the burnt corpses of a few of your mercenary soldiers through their streets, so much the better. In this environment, your captive home population will be very tolerant of whatever outrages of torture and slaughter you might find it expedient to commit.

As long as we let the other side set the rules, we will lose the game. The one thing we have going for us is that combination of intelligence, foresight, inventiveness and a capacity for love and compassion that is our evolved humanity. When we surrender these things, we disarm ourselves and we lose—or we risk becoming our enemy, and we also lose. When we use, build and refine our higher attributes, we will eventually win.

[Bellamia]

1. Wow!

Great food for thought. Well written. Am printing it to use in my Mental Health Support Group, where we see a lot of fear & rage, not only re: THE WAR, but everyday life, would you believe! Reminds me of the maxim, As goes the individual, so goes the nation.........or some such thing, but you get the idea.

[Botany]

2. Exactly!

Rove's little speech was meant to get our goat. He lives to distract and attack.
You are right he is a psychopath. He can have gay relationships (my hunch) but
demonize gays to turn out "his vote." To him it is all big picture.

He also uses Creative Response Concepts to plant stories in the news and
to manipulate peoples feelings.

So we must destroy him but at the same not raise to his bait and get emotional
about it.

[Flammable Materials]

3. Rove is capable of hate.

Anyone remember this Rovian quote:

"We will fuck him. Do you hear me? We will fuck him. We will ruin him. Like no one has ever fucked him!"

[Jackpine Radical]

4. Rove is capable of graphically expressing a strategy.

He is capable of feeling "rushes." That's one of the major payoffs for a psychopath--"getting off" on the cruelty of what you're doing. But none of this equates to hate.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. one of our best weapons is humor

fearing or hating Rove or his ilk only adds to their power, as you so rightly put it.

But if you can look at them and their foibles, laughingly show you see through their sham and manipulation, they can have no power over you.

[havocmom]

6. Yeah, respond to them as you would any two year old in tantrum

They have power over us only if we allow it. Better to ignore most or their outbursts and define reality ourselves. The one who stays calm the longest is the one in charge.

[ElectroPrincess]

7. I beg to differ, especially in the Senate,

The Dashelle Strategy (be polite and respectful) failed miserably. Word. The best thing you can do with a right winger is stand toe to toe and don't back down. Most are paper tigers when challenged.

[havocmom]

8. We are not speaking of the same thing

which comes as no surprise to me

[ElectroPrincess]

10. Then please enlighten me ... I read the originators post ...

And I understand the sociopathic personality. I did research on this personality disorder as an undergraduate.

When you stand up to either an authoritarian and/or anti-social person, it does ANGER them because they are used to people folding at their will.

IMO it's the whorish corporate USA media that SPINS our statements of passion into some warped "outrage". Just look at the bile that's spewed by the right wing Republicans in the Senate and House?

Please explain to me in more detail if you would be so kind?

On Edit: To expand, the anger Rove is generating originates within HIS base, not OURS. We have a right to get psyched in all the right ways.

[Tigress DEM]

20. The TACTIC is ignore, but the STRATEGY is to DEFINE YOU OWN REALITY..

As I have said before, "Define your own reality, accept no substitutions" is very powerful.

Still, a parent can calmly tell their child "this behavior is unacceptable" without responding in kind to the tantrum.

I think the problem with dealing with adults who behave in these outrageous ways with ignoring them is that they are NOT children and NEED to be HELD Accountable for their actions in a DECISIVE WAY.

When we ignore politicians who push their ways through the process by having tantrums over things we wind up with LAWS being changed to favor their insanity.

It's like you're a mother with a several kids. While two or three distract you with tantrums, two others are killing the family cat and putting it out on the street to blame the next DEM that happens along and others are raiding your buffet and stealing your grandmother's silver to take it down to a pawn shop. The rethuglikans are dismantling society and the tantrums are only distractions.

These adult tantrums are our tip off that other more serious stuff is happening, not the full tamale.

Yeah, ok, ignore the tantrums, but spend your time and energy not just defining your own reality, but of making the rethugs accountable for their behavior.

[Tommymac]

26. But how can we define a Strategy

when they will not give us the podium? Until we can gain a foothold in just ONE MS TV network, reach the common working class sod who doesn't have internet access and relies on TV to get their info from, that strategy will be marginal at best.

Not knocking it - IMHO it just does not apply to the set of circumstances we have RIGHT NOW.

[Tigress DEM]

27. My new stragey is IMPEACHMENT Party Sept 26, 2005

I think it will take having 5 million people show up in DC to tell *ush and every other scum infecting our government that we are fed up and won't take it anymore.

*ush was able to ignore over half a million signatures on the DSM issue calling it old news.

I think it will take that many people shouting for impeachment to get the attention of this deaf dumb and blind administration. It will be loud enough to set off car alarms and shake the buildings.

[Tommymac]

28. Send me an invite...

We'll be there! My wife and I are planning on being in DC at least the 24th and 25th ....

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/

[Tigress DEM]

31. Actually, I should start saying 24-26th because the 24th is "party" day

Schedule of Events:

Sat., 9/24 - Massive March, Rally & Festival
Sun., 9/25 - Interfaith Service, Grassroots Training
Mon., 9/26 - Lobby Day, Mass Nonviolent Direct Action and Civil Disobedience

My hubby isn't too sure about this Civil Disobedience.... says maybe he'll go to a museum so I have someone to call if I need to get bailed out of jail.

Bring as many video cams and cameras as possible. We'll be documenting how the police treat us and others. In New York M19 protests many people turned over unjust arrests in court by presenting video evidence that the charges brought against them were false.

[Tigress DEM]

18. Remember what Bill Maher with Gannongate?

God, I laughed my ass off on that.

We need someone to do a skit with KR talking to his "Skipper Doll" planning out his grand schemes or something. Make the context bizarre enough that people understand how crazy what is being done actually is.

The scary thing is that when the suits do all their things while sitting together sipping Cognac it lends an air of civility to things that are simply verbal and intellectual offal.

Ha, maybe that's a better skit.

[Double T]

9. Karl Rove as a psychopath or sociopath has no remorse,

no conscience and no soul. Karl Rove truly believes he can convince any of his detractors or opponents that he is innocent of any wrong doing about anything and he will do whatever it takes to prove that to you. Dealing with an individual like Karl Rove with this type of affliction is very difficult as you never know where they are coming from next. Nothing Karl Rove attempted to do or say would surprise me, he is pure EVIL!! Prison would be an appropriate abode.

[ElectroPrincess]

11. But psychopaths DO get angry ... even feel rage when their

plans are going astray. That's when you catch them. Only the highest IQ psychopaths are in business and politics but all "slip-up" by pushing the envelope too far.

What sets aside a psychopath primarily is that have absolutely no conscious as long as the end results benefit them. However, they do express rage when thwarted. Why? Because it effects THEM. And it is all about them. ;) That's why many violent criminals have anti social tendencies. You just have to plant the seed that their little world is in the process of crumbling down.

IMO we've got Rove where we want him. He's far from invincible and the curtain is in the process of being pulled back. If we keep the heat on, he will seriously start to make more and more mistakes. Even "evil geniuses" make serious errors if they play hard, dirty and long enough.

[Double T]

12. I agree with you on the anger and the rage, but psychopaths have...

henchmen and henchwomen that have jumped on board the psychopath band wagon at some point to save or elevate their own skin. In doing so they may have incriminated themselves in the psychopaths underhanded and destructive activities and now are the pawns of the psychopath making them useful fall guys to cover for the psychopaths evil deeds. It would not surprise me to see Karl Rove expose some hench person(s) as the leakers for outing Plame. The hench person(s) were only doing what they were told to do by Rove but now they will ultimately be screwed.

[ElectroPrincess]

13. I agree ... others will fall before him

but books like "Bush's Brain" are exposing Rove and all his ugliness. Plus, he's scattered political casualties for 20 plus years. H W Bush being more "moral" (not much) even fired Rove once.

No, I believe that if we can keep the whorish media focused on politics instead of shark bites, we will bring down Rove too, and in a big way.

These personalities always are drawn to higher and higher risk, and with The Plame outing, perhaps all those past evil deeds will serve to cement a pattern that will make make this "serious breech" stick.

[Double T]

23. Rove has accomplished a substantial number of evil deeds over....

many years. I hope the immunity he has enjoyed during this time, with his Jekyll and Hyde personality, will finally come to an end. This current administration has a great knack for creating alternate perceptions for the real truth and events that have occurred. I am waiting for them to ramp up the terrorism scare tactics playing off the horrible London bombings. I really hope you are right, we need to help keep the focus on this Plame outing issue.

[1democracy]

14. On sociopaths and psychopaths...

The odd part about sociopaths and psychopaths (can someone remind me of the difference- I forget) is that they exist in the world of their own making. The trick is to not get involved in making their world real. Ultimately, when the curtain entirely reveals them, they are pathetic creatures with norms totally at odds with the rest of humanity-- actually no norms except what is good for themselves alone. However, many people will throw their lot in with them, because they are impressed with the power they wield. Normal people in contact with the psychopath cannot conceive of the depth of lies and manipulation and they themselves become co-opted in the process. (They become like zombies, in thrall, to their Master who cannot be questioned). Often the psychopath "has something on" those propping him up, i.e. he knows a dark secret about them or has managed to get them to compromise themselves so they intellectually cannot ever afford to allow themselves to see the psychopath for what he is. In the * administration, there may be several psychopaths.
It is of interest that they are totally narcissistic-- and are actually fearless. They do not do what a normal person would do- apologize for hurting someone, stop a behavior that is dangerous.They cannot empathize and as another poster has said, they cannot feel, like other people. They are the most stubborn people in the world. Scott Peck calls them "People of the Lie". In religious terms, they are evil. Actually, it can be very dangerous for a person to be around the evil one. You can get sucked in easily. The telltale sign of an evil person is revulsion, you want to get away, and that is very important because these people have the ability to destroy you- not your body so much as your soul. (In non-religious terms, the psychopath traps you into making a moral choice that will haunt you for the rest of your life, and scars you permanently).
These people are dangerous to us all. They need to be disempowered, so they cannot hurt others- i.e. their positions taken away, no excuses (rationalizations) accepted. Peck does not know whether evil can be "healed", and neither do I from my own experience.

[Jackpine Radical]

16. There are a lot of ways of using and defining the terms

"psychopath" and "sociopath." The convention I was using, which is pretty much the current standard among forensic psychologists, is as follows:

Sociopath is an older term and not in use as a diagnostic term.

Antisocial Personality is the term currently recognized in the psychiatric community, and in DSM 4.

Psychopath is an older term also, but has been re-introduced with a very specific meaning by Canadan forensic psychologist Robert Hare. Hare has done extensive work with this group, and has developed a psychological test, the Psychopathy Checklist (PCL), now in a revised format (PCL-R). In the US, the standard operational definition of a psychopath is someone who scores higher than 30 on the PCL-R. About half of all prison inmates in America qualify for the Antisocial Personality diagnosis, and a subset of about half of these score above the cutoff point on the PCL-R and thereby qualify as Psychopaths.

Unfortunately, the PCL-R is based largely on chriminal records and the like, and works very well in the prison population but not so well in identifying higher-functioning psychopaths of the sort who, because of high IQs and an ability to defer gratification, manage to rise to positions of power in the world of corporations and bureaucracies. Also--my own observation--the higher-functioning ones tend to have more DSM-narcissistic and fewer DSM-antisocial traits.

Hope you're not regretting that you brought this question up.

[Double T]

24. Weren't Professor Robert Hare and Dr. Paul Babiak working on a....

psychopathic check list for 'corporate psychopaths' and by extension 'political psychopaths' called the B-Scan for Business Scan. They were also publishing a book that defined the same called "Snakes In Suits". It was supposed to be out earlier this year, but I haven't seen anything more on it. I thought perhaps all the Executive Management from all the corporations had taken up a collection and made them an offer to not publish it. I appreciate all of your information in this thread.

[Jackpine Radical]

25. I hadn't heard of anything related to business psychopathy

from Hare. That doesn't necessarily mena much, though. Oughtta be interesting if it materializes.

The closest thing I know of is Robert Rieber's Manufacturing Social Distress: Psychopathy in Everyday Life. You might find t interesting.

[Double T]

36. Thank you for the reference, I've got a situation with a text book.....

'Corporate Psychopath' and I am trying to obtain as much information as possible in an attempt to determine how to deal with this individual.

[H2O Man]

32. Some behaviors

that a normal person knows in their gut are antisocial, may not be a legal offense. Further, teens from some social classes are less likely to get arrested, much less convicted, for the same behaviors than another class of teens ends up with criminal records for. Ah, but "boys will be boys."

I always found that those people who are merely antisocial have their own (criminal) code of conduct & honor. Sociopaths do not have any code of honor, and violate every code of conduct when the mood strikes them.

[Double T]

22. There is no cure for the affliction and I am not certain that the damage..

done by same is ever completely healed; perhaps not in the same lifetime. I agree that what we are apparently dealing with is a band of psychopaths running this country and it does not get much worse than that. We will all need to work very hard to evacuate our political system from this psycho-tyranny; that in itself provides a lot of motivation.

[libodem]

15. Well thought out and very well put

...this is taking the high road...and that is really how I'd like to conduct my life but it is so easy to go crazy with hate and outrage when I feel goaded, mocked, smirked at and ridiculed...for my basic beliefs and values...like do unto others, love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek,...things these freaks all profess...but trample daily with their unholy actions...aaaagggghhhh agonizing..they've reached rock-bottom....and started to dig!!!!

[Tigress DEM]

17. Gee and I thought the US Constitution was the REAL Rules of the USofA

Somebody ought to tell Karl.... and the rest of the rethuglikans.

[Jackpine Radical]

19. I also want to point out what perfect sense Karl's recent remarks make--

the comments about liberals wanting to indict the 9-11 bunch and subject them to therapy. First, not that he somehow equates these two things. To indict them as criminals (like Clinton did so successfully with the first WTC bombers), seeking redress under international law (what we really should have done, IMHO) is just like mollycoddling and sending them to therapy. What a puky, compassionate, disgustingly liberal thing to do.

So Karl knows very well exactly what he is doing. What he has to fear is our rationality, our compassion, our higher capacities, and he did what he always does; he attacked our strengths, hoping to get us to disavow them and thereby once again disarm ourselves.

[Tigress DEM]

21. Actually, I was wondering the other day why *ush let Osama's family go...

After 9/11 all flights were held up. Then Commercial flights were released, but before ANY American could get in their private jet and go anywhere in this FREE country of ours... the White House let the family members of Osama Bin Laden leave the country.

If John Travolta had gone up in his Cesna, the military would have shot him down, but the family of the man who was responsible for killing 3000 Americans was let out of the country immediately.

Couldn't we have made them stay indefinately under house arrest until Osama turned himself in?

No, because then *ush would have had no excuse for attacking Iraq which would deprive him of his chance to finally be a successful oil man.

Sigh, bankrupted 3 oil companies and a country. This boy is really a nut job and shouldn't be allowed to play with anything more serious than monopoly money.

[1democracy]

29. Eric Fromm

Have any of you read Eric Fromm? He wrote many books looking into what made people follow Hitler, the herd mentality, etc.. One I like is "Escape from Freedom", detailing why people would rather be told exactly what to do and think, than think for themselves. He contends there is a lot of primal fear ( we on DU know what it takes to confront the dominant group-- it ain't pretty!) and the idea of taking total responsibility for yourself AND YOUR BELIEFS is beyond what many can do. I myself have a science background so have training in the power of rational thought, which I have come to believe does not hold true for the majority of people in the world.

[Jackpine Radical]

30. Wow, I haven't read, or even thought much about, Fromm

in damn near 40 years, but I imagine his writing forms part of the foundation of my education, as it did for most psychologists of my age.

[H2O Man]

33. Erich Fromm was great.

I often re-read my copies of his books. He also wrote the introduction to AS Neill's classic "Summerhill."

[Tigress DEM]

35. Speaking of the "rational disconnect" in the administration...

I think we should call it "criminal rational disconnect" because not only are soldiers dying because of decisions based on lies, but reporters and scientists are being targeted and even dying because they know too much.

That is something that doesn't get much press. Reporters without borders cover the statistics on reporters dead around the world and with some idea as to why. I haven't heard much about several scientists who were apparently murdered early on after they had provided evidence that contradicted some *ush policy or another.

The media is covering whistle blowers being subject to reprisal now, so that is good. Maybe they will have enough light on the subject to prevent any more deaths as cover ups.

I wonder sometimes about all those early reports of "suicides" in the military in Iraq. How many of those were soldiers of conscience who found out the truth about torture and either spoke up to the wrong person?

[Tigress DEM]

34. When I went to school, late 60's thru early 80's in California....

they were still inclined to teach children HOW to think, not WHAT to think... except in a math class... lot of memorization of formula's and such.

Didn't do too well in math until I got to Geometry and Trig. I found out that my internal leaning style needs some practical reason for WHY calculate something this way? When Geometry and Trig explained if you don't get the angle right on the roof or a bridge the roof leaks and your bridge builders from each side won't meet in the middle... then I said, "OK. If there is a reason for all this fuss, I can spend the time on it."

Personally, I think the media bias toward covering violence by minorities and all huge tradgedies made the news too depressing for me because I really tend to care too much and there was not much I could do about it. Also on some level I understood that a black man stealing money because he has no way to get a job to support himself is not just his problem, but ours as well and that corporate criminals going scot free were a worse menace.

I literally had to stop watching or reading news for some time and get involved in being part of the solution in order to keep my mental emotional balance. That was in the 80's even before it got this bad. Still I feel that I abdicated my post as a responsible citizen because if I didn't give the media hell for getting it wrong, and just gave up then I was part of the problem. Thing is, I didn't know these things consciously then.

[1democracy]

37. Survival has to come first

We all tune out when we can't take it, when we need to be refreshed. You can't do anybody any good if you're having a mental breakdown. It helps to have friends that understand and feel as you do, in fact it can keep you sane in an insane world. You survive to assert you vision of reality another day. For that is wat is going on- dualing visions of reality. If you believe we create our own reality, you understand how important it is to exist in these times with your vision.

Today, in Boston, it's the most beautiful day imaginable. I feel myself to be in the garden of eden, and I drink of the wine of beauty and my spirit is quenched.