Rush Limbaugh advising Dean on how to attack Clark (on radio show) !

[kentuck]

Unbelievable! :) And they said irony is dead.

Rush is quite worked up and telling Dean what he should say about Clark? The usual: insiders of the Democratic Party, the Clintons, etc are trying to take what rightfully belongs to Howard Dean, the Democratic nomination away him. What do you make of this? Are they that scared of General Clark? Do they want Howard Dean that much? I've never seen this strategy before from the Rushbo...

[billbuckhead]

1. Dean and his followers are the last best hope for Chimpy

Does anyone now doubt who Rove wants to face in the election? How much of the money Dean is getting is coming from the RepuKKKes?

[HFishbine]

4. The falacy of that argument

If the Rovians really were working to advance the least electable democratic candidate, do you really think they'd be working for the front-runner? No offense (really), but if their strategy was to get the weekest competition nominated, don't you think they's be pumping Moseley Braun, Denise Kucinich or Bob Graham?

[StopTheMorans]

5. exactly

keep reaching buddy :eyes:

[diplomats]

8. Those people aren't polling well among Dems

Dean is. Dean has a good shot at winning the nomination while the others have no chance.

[StopTheMorans]

14. so do you buy the "conspiracy" thing or not

and if you people are so sure that Rove is in on it, why would his strategy be right out in the open? Maybe he's actually counting on the fact that the paranoid types who don't like Dean will interpret his comments as support for Dean, and will thwart Dean from getting the nomination as such (which is exactly what he wants since he knows Dean is the strongest candidate). Tinfoil is the norm around here, but I find this particular brand to be particularly ridiculous :eyes:

[cprise]

33. Conspiracy or Tendency, it doesn't matter

It's just pre-election intrigue, and they could be reacting out of fear at this point.

They fear Clark more because they place a higher value on military authority figures. Do Americans have the same twisted values?

[Julien Sorel]

40. If Dean is the 'strongest candidate,'

why does he poll worst against Bush?

[StopTheMorans]

43. try national name recognition for Kerry and Clark

against a governor from a small state who was polling in single digits just a 1/2 a year ago who has been on a meteoric rise ever since (raising his name recognition, still is), and then remember that while he is still doing great, it's 14 months til the election, and then tell me that the margin of error in that poll which leaves Kerry, Clark, and Dean within range of Bush really leaves Dean out of the picture :eyes:

[Julien Sorel]

47. Ummm...

I didn't say Dean was 'out of the picture,' so you can stop playing with your straw men now.

Your argument contradicts itself: on the one hand, you use current polls to claim Dean is the 'strongest candidate;' on the other, you immediately fall back on 'margin of error' when Dean's weakness in a key polling area is pointed out. Apparently margin of error should be selectively applied to poll data -- in Dean's favor, of course.

Prove that Dean has less name recognition than Clark.

[StopTheMorans]

49. the whole "contradicts itself thing" was a play on

what I found to be a wholly contradictory statement by yourself. the whole "Rove wants Dean because he is the strongest candidate" was an attempt to humorously point out how ridiculous people claiming that ROve wants Dean (since you're calling out everyone else for quotes, show me that quote, and then I'll show you how it was when the war was still much more popular and Dean hadn't risen as far as he has now, apples and oranges). Prove that Dean has less name recognition that Clark? Ok, I cite myself :eyes: Polls this early usually rely heavily on name recognition. There are no straw men my friend, that was merely an attempt at pointing out what a weak argument the "Dean is Rove's handpicked candidate" is, you may want to get your neck checked by a doctor, all that tinfoil may be getting quite heavy by now, wouldn't want you to strain anything;)

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[StopTheMorans]

51. I'm sorry, for the benefit of you and yours in the future

I will attempt to remember to write all posting "close-captioned for the humor-impaired". Did you see the sensational nature in which I was saying <sarcasm on>"Hey man, get a grip, Rove is fooling you" <sarcasm off> and things of that nature? ANd it's not obvious to you that is sarcasm? Please <not really asking you for a favor, meant to convey sense of bewilderment that someone could miss something so obvious> :eyes:

and as for your last oh so brilliant quote "Why should I go to the trouble of 'showing you the quote,' when everyone knows where and when it was uttered"

if everyone knows when and where it was uttered, this statement contains a few simple suppositions: A. You are someone
B. Then you know where and when it was uttered

so, if it's on the tip of your tongue, and everyone knows "when and where it was uttered", then why not take the 4 or 5 seconds and type it, or would you rather just continue to spread disinformation?

[Julien Sorel]

53. Yep. this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=403661#404450

was clearly sarcasm, and anyone who takes it seriously is 'sense of humor impaired.'

What is the term 'sense of integrity impaired' a euphemism for?

[VolcanoJen]

58. Dean was on the cover of Newsweek only a few weeks ago...

... so I'd have to say he's a frontrunner, and has national name recognition, whether Rove or the rest of us likes it or not.

[cprise]

57. It certainly isn't related to how well he debates

And I think his debates and speeches will eventually get the better of Clark.

In any case, Dean is the one who will retire the neocon's global ponzi scheme. I don't care if he wins by a slightly narrower margin than Clark would.

[AP]

11. Maybe Dean wouldn't be in lead but for RW assistance.

[StopTheMorans]

16. yeah maybe, I mean, that's why I like him, he's Rove's chosen candidate

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[KoKo]

6. Bill if you have a link of Repug donors to Dean.......then provide it.

And btw, Rove would not want to face Dean....

[Julien Sorel]

42. If you have a link proving Rove would not want to face Dean,

provide it. And by the way, Rove has publicly stated that he wants to face Dean...

[StopTheMorans]

45. so is Rove practicing super-secret double reverse psychology

on us poor, hapless dems :eyes: You're falling for his trap man, get a grip! He wants you to believe that he really wants Dean, so the dems will unite to defeat Dean, who is really the strongest candidate! You're falling for the Rightwing trap man, wake up! :eyes:

[JaneQPublic]

46. Try this

It's pretty close, although not a direct quote from Rove. Of course, he's not so stupid as to tell the world which candidate(s) he's afraid of:

http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030908/5477666s.htm

"Bush team considers Dean formidable
Republicans admit they underestimated Dem candidate"

[Bandit]

39. Old Chinese Proverb ~ "Be careful what you wish for you may just get it"

We can only hope.

[dougjefferson]

60. Dean and the GOP

I know several Republicans who've sent money to Dean and plan on voting for him in the Primaries as a way of sabatoging the Democratic Party.

[tjdee]

2. What are his suggestions?

He is actually advising one candidate?

Like Dean needs his help?

[KoKo]

3. Seems more that he's going after Dean....his strategy is to pit the two of

them against each other......in the ears of his listeners. If Rush smells (and he has a cunning carnivore's sense of smell that a scent blood may be in the air for Bush) he's going to find a way to help himself survive the coming "downfall" of Bush/PNAC so he can continue raking in his millions and keep his influence with the Wingers.

So, he puts Clark and Dean into a sparring match....that he's contrived.....and the Dem Candidate that Rush can live with will survive. (I know you're not going to like my conclusion Kentuck...but it's a just a theory).

I was actually going to post about why Rush is trashing Clark in WSJ article and now you say he's giving Dean advice on how to attack Clark. It's suspicious....in that there's no way I trust that Rush isn't up to something. And it isn't because he's afraid of Clark......There's defintely some sneaky maneuvering going on.

edited: typos

[diplomats]

12. Rush probably thinks Bush will beat anyone

but if he feared Dean most he'd probably be giving advice to Clark on how to attack Dean. It doesn't matter though, because Dean and Clark are both much smarter than Rush (and Bush, of course).

[Hawkeye-X]

19. Rush will be fired after Dean is elected

and the only job he'll find is a motivational speaker for Anus Warts Anonymous, and even that, it only pays a pittance.

Hawkeye-X

[cprise]

31. Yes, splitting the antiwar support in the primaries is a priority for them

Rush wants another DLC true-believer in office. Clinton was very good to his masters.

[Jackpine Radical]

7. Trying to find useful information in the RW disinformation tank

is like bobbing for apples in an open sewer. (Don't bite too hard. You may not want to keep what you find.)

[Toucano]

10. You have a gift

for literary imagery!

Well said!
:yourock:

[Jackpine Radical]

54. {{Blush}}

Thanks

[PAMod]

20. Heh heh

If this doesn't end this thread, nothing will.

[Jackpine Radical]

55. Well--it looks like

The Thread that Wouldn't Die.

[quinnox]

9. And Gingrich came to Dean's defense

Now it's Rush advising him. Oh, I'm sure it's just a reverse psychology thing going on. No Republican could possibly see Dean as a weak candidate in a general election. Yea, right.

[janx]

13. It's simple: the right wingnuts just don't know what else to do.

They may be loud, but they're not very smart.

[w4rma]

15. IMHO, Rush is trying to turn the Democratic establishment on Dean

Don't fall for it folks. Dean has the MO that the rest of the candidates can only dream of.

Party infighting *will* help Repukes.

[NashVegas]

52. Why Would the Dem Establishment Listen to Rush?

They just aren't his crowd.

But by Rush openly pushing Dean to his listeners as a way to insure Bush gets re-elected, he's trying to reinforce the idea (to his wingnut listeners) that Dean doesn't stand a chance in hell of winning.

[Pepperbelly]

56. you almost have Rush's intentions right but not quite...

What he wants is for ALL Democrats to splinter.

[ScrewyRabbit]

17. They don't have to be donating $ to Dean

...to be in favor of a Dean candidacy. I think they fear Clark more because he'll be a bigger draw for swing voters in the middle.

[SeattleRob]

18. It;s simple....

It's the old strategy of "Divide and Conquer." Judging by the some of the comments seen here and in other threads, it looks like it's working on some people.

[JaneQPublic]

23. Bingo!

Give a prize to the new guy. By the way, welcome, SeattleRob!

Yes, simple divide and conquer, that's all it is. Just trying to stir up bad blood between the frontrunners, so they spend more time bashing one another instead of Chimpy.

Not too long ago, they were trying to undermine Clark, saying he was really just a candidate for Dean's VP.

And that came just a while after the Repub operatives admitted they had underestimated Dean as a challenger. As the below article says, "Few Republicans are cheering for Dean now":

http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030908/5477666s.htm

Bush team considers Dean formidable
Republicans admit they underestimated Dem candidate

Republican Party officials and political advisers to President Bush admit that they underestimated Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean and say they now consider him a formidable potential adversary.

Some Bush allies say he reminds them of another insurgent candidate who once bedeviled Bush: Arizona Sen. John McCain. His wins in Republican primary elections in New Hampshire and Michigan rattled Bush's 2000 campaign.

''There is something going on there, and I tell you, if we don't pay attention . . . we're making a big mistake,'' says Tom Rath, a Republican strategist and Bush adviser in New Hampshire.

MORE...

[kentuck]

24. But that was before the polls that showed Clark and Kerry beating Bush..

That changed their perspective just a bit, I think?

[JaneQPublic]

25. In those polls, Clark, Kerry, & Dean were all within the margin of error

And if Chimpy continues to sink in the polls, which he probably will, the majority of the Dem candidates will be beating him in the polls.

[quinnox]

28. No, Clark and Kerry were winning

and Dean was doing the worst of all the top tier candidates. Remember, the margin of error can go both ways.

[JaneQPublic]

34. Look again

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04gen.htm

In the latest poll -- Zogby -- none of the Dems beat Bush.
The MOE is 3.2, and there's only a 2-point spread between Dean, Clark, and Kerry.

In the CNN poll, which is the one that got all the attention for having Clark beat Bush, the MOE is 4 points. The point spread between
Clark and Dean in the Bush matchups is only 3 points.

And, yes, the MOE can go both ways, which means Dean could in fact have 3 or 4 points more than listed, and Kerry and Clark that amount less.

But you cling to whatever makes you feel better.

[StopTheMorans]

36. "But you cling to whatever makes you feel better."

amen to that:)

[quinnox]

37. I obviously wasn't referring to Zogby

So not sure why you trot that one out.

Here is the fact, I'll say it again, Kerry and Clark were both the only candidates to be shown beating Bush in the gallup poll of registered voters.

Dean did the worse of all the top tier candidates in the poll.

I am happy to educate you with a link to the results, if it is needed.

[JaneQPublic]

41. That's the CNN poll, right?

I already discussed it in my last post, right under the Zogby reference.

You'll find the link to it in that post. At the Polling Report website the CNN results are right after those from Zogby and NBC.

[SeattleRob]

44. You're right.

I think both Dean and Clark make Karl Rove wake up in cold sweats. I also think the Repuke propaganda machine is gearing up for the mother of all mudslinging fests.

I think some of the slamming of candidates going on here is part of the divide and conquer strategy. I believe we need unity. We should discuss our favorite candidates positions and why we like them and we should try to get clarification on the other candidates -where they stand on certain issues. It's going to be difficult enough for whichever candidate wins the nomination. They have to face Bush's large amounts of $$'s, the right wing attack dogs (Faux,Clear Channel) and the know-nothing pundits who take pleasure in distorting records.(See Gore 2000).

While I am a Dean Supporter, I will not take part in trashing any candidates. I will also happily support whomever gets the nomination.

I also would also not put it past repuke operatives coming to the DU and trying to stir up trouble. Some of the trashing I have seen has makes me wonder....


And thanks Jane for the kind words. I am glad to be aboard the "Dump Bush Express."

[Tyler Durden]

21. The RW is convinced they can beat Dean.

This is not to say that this is true or not, but the incessant diatribe against Wesley Clark by the Right is interesting. Personally, I wouldn't slam somebody that I thought I could beat in a political fight, and why waste time and money slamming someone I don't think is a threat?

If the Right doesn't like Clark, that's a check in his column as far as I'm concerned, and I don't think the Right even knows what "reverse psychology" is, so that isn't an issue.

[w4rma]

27. The Repukes at the top of this lot know *all* the psychological tricks

Remember, their primary goal is to move resources towards their extremely wealthy buddies. All else is secondary.

That's not to say that they don't make mistakes. Also, remember that their world views are in most cases warped from reality.

[cprise]

29. But the Right is deranged

And their judgement is off in this case; I'm not going to use it as a benchmark.

More than likely, they are helping prepare their own demise.

[MODemocrat]

22. What makes Limbozo think Dean needs his advice?

Dean has it altogether thank you Rush. No "help" wanted. Limbo is so afraid of Clark, he's trying to get Dean and Clark to turn against each other. What a drip Rush is!!!

:think: }(

[cprise]

26. Rush is a true believer

...and like many neocons believes that a battle against Dean's civilian liberalism would be far easier than stand against a military authority figure.

These people's lives revolve around militarism, and losing the military culture to Clark would be an unmittigated disaster because they have little else. They even thought the military could fix their economics.

IMO, Dean is even more dangerous to them... His people are doing a brilliant end-run around the establishment with a huge emphasis on grass-roots democracy and personal involvement. What's more Dean has been through the neo-liberal mindset and found it wanting, even to the point of attacking Clinton's NAFTA. There is no surer opponent of the neocons than this kind of ex-neo-liberal convert. Neocon militarism and economics both could be a thing of the past.

Like the rest of the conservative establishment, media, etc., Limbaugh and the rest of those dopes are mis-guaging Americans' willingness to support their preferred (and unaccountable) power structure.

They will regret having even uttered a word of advice to Dean.

[bushisanidiot]

30. Yeah, I'm sure Dean is Just GLUED To The Radio

hanging on Boil Ass's every word. Any "moran" who would take advice from that fat idiot get's what he/she deserves.

[Robin Hood]

32. That says to me that Clark is the man.

Any candidate that they want to run against, I don't want to run.

Considering the recent poll numbers where Clark and Kerry beat Bush, so far it looks like a Clark/Kerry ticket.

[cprise]

35. Who prefers neocon judgement over that of liberals?

I think the neocons are capable of preparing their own worst demise.

[Julien Sorel]

38. Yeah, those Republicans:

so terrified of Howard dean, they're giving him advice on how to get elected. Must be more of that mis-mis-mis-direction from KKKarl Rove.

[kayleybeth]

48. Why would Dean

need Limbaugh to coach him on how to attack Clark? All of the ammo he needs for that can be found right here on DU. Same goes for pretty much any of the other candidates, too. We really do eat our own.

[poskonig]

59. Limbaugh is trying to encourage infighting.

Evidently, it is working. "Dean cannot win!" "Clark is an establishment stooge!" blah blah blah