If their was a god, I wouldn't worship it!!!!

[Cointelpro_Papers]

Start out by saying I don't believe in god, and I never will.

With everything going on in the world, with millions suffering, countless starving, and gross injustices peppered throughout our history, and lives, I could not worship, or accept something that created all that. I could not mold my beliefs to a intity that is as hypocitical as a god would be.

Not to mention the fact that if their was a god, eveything I could ever do would automatically become irrelevant. No matter how hard I worked, no matter how great how brave, or how intelligent I was, I would always be in the shadow of something I despise. If their was a god, I would hate it for it's hypocrisy, and overshadowing effects, that it would have on every human accomplishment.

If their were gods, how could I endure not being one. Hence their are not gods.

[Terran]

1. Um...

If their were gods, how could I endure not being one. Hence their are not gods.

You should seek professional help immediately. And also learn the difference between "there" and "their".

[Robin Hood]

23. Come on now!!!

That was a lousy answer.

[Terran]

43. Excuse me?

I was replying to a profoundly flawed and bizarre statement. I was joking about the professional help, but then again, if the poster is serious, he has some extremely serious ego issues to resolve. And I find your criticism to be rather less constructive than my "lousy answer".

[Chicagonian]

44. BTW-good call on the their/there thing...

they're words that too many people need to learn the differences between.

[Chicagonian]

45. nt

nt

[Walt Starr]

2. Religion and poltics don't mix

And threads about religion on these boards generally end up in a flamefest.

Perhaps you should post this on a religion discussion board?

[mdmc]

3. Don't worry

It will only seem like an eternity. At least it is a dry heat.
:~)

[Character Assassin]

4. Well, I guessed that's cleared up now. Glad we had this little talk.

n/t

[classics]

5. I believe there was a request for less religous threads.

n/t

[bryant69]

6. "Overshadowing effects"

Yeah, that's why I hate Julia Roberts. And that Mr. Bean guy.

[Az]

7. First things first

Go find a copy of XTC's Dear God and chill out a bit listening and realise that you are not alone.

Ok, relaxed? Now the second thing. This is a political forum. We gather here voluntarily to discuss politics. While religion may have an impact on politics it is not the place to discuss the eschotology of the matter. We can discuss the impact certain positions may have but the right of a person to believe what they will cannot be infringed.

In matters where individuals would bring religious beliefs into the political arena we find fair ground upon which to do battle. Thus when some would attempt to mandate their religious centered morality on the lives of others it behooves us to point out our rights to privacy. When religion would attempt to muscle its way into medical law it is vital that we stand up and defend science and research. But politics is not the place to bring the fight on the question of gods existance.

Seriously if you wish to discuss this matter send someone such as myself or any of the other active atheists/humanists/freethinkers present here on DU a private message. We may be able to help you or guide you to a forum that is better suited for theological discussions. I know full well the frustration of not having avenues through which to discuss the ideas that are exploding in your mind right now. But this is a place to make allies not to slay dragons. And there are many theists that are understanding of the atheist plight and are our welcome friends. This is a massive and small world. Be careful who you would make your enemy for lack of understanding.

[wtmusic]

11. thank you AZ

let's keep it on track here folks

[Cointelpro_Papers]

35. Thanks, it was well written,

but our society has made the topic religion a political topic, and as the Status Quo is that, this thread is within the perameters of the GDF.

Thanks.

[Az]

40. Yes but

Religion has an impact on politics. But not the theological debate. You will gain nothing by attempting to argue the theological arguments. This does not in any way mean you have to let religion slide as a topic. It is a vital topic. A necissary one. But you must learn where to strike on which issues. In this matter if you choose to strike at the heart you will strike your allies as well. The human mind does not lose its belief in god based on a straight logical argument. That is not the nature of belief. Your arguments will spiral and turn and increase in anger and venom and in the end you will have won nothing but enemies.

The place to strike in this enviroment is to thwart the efforts of the religious right to invade the government. Here is a secret. We won. A bit over 200 years ago we won. This government is a Secular Government. That is it embraces the idea a government of the people, for the people, and by the people. What more could an atheist ask for? Fortunately such a system serves our theist friends as well. But it must be defended because some religious structures want their hold on society to include the State as well as the Church. This is where this forum comes into play. There are theists aplenty that realise that a Secular government is as good for them as it is for us. Choose your allies for the battles you need to fight. Fight the battles you can win. In this way you will be succesful.

[Rainbowreflect]

8. I believe the only way God is connected to all the evil in the world is

that God gave us free will. With the free will to make our own choices comes the reality that we will all make bad choices some times and some people will make mostly bad choices that hurt others.

[edward]

20. Doesn't that make God a cynic?

Why would he give us free will...knowing we would make bad choices?
I mean, what exactly does it mean to give(emphasis) humans free will?
What is so important to God to see us making choices? Like it is a game?
Of course the theology is so that we can freely love God. So what?
That makes Him a narcissist; not enough to love Him, have to want to love Him.
Reply, but not with dogma, if you please. Heard it all before.

[Tigermoose]

36. God gave us free will out of Love.

He originally created us in harmony with ourselves and nature, but we blew it and chose not to obey, thus our disharmony (ever hear of the Garden of Eden?). Christ came to give us a chance to redeem that mistake, again, out of God's love. How many chances should we get?

[edward]

66. Dogma. Exactly what I did not need to read.

You made my point. You have no idea other than what Church
teachers made you recite. Like knee jerk reactions: bell
rings, dog salivates.

[jafap]

9. see James 1:27 and Matthew 25

The only "worship" I see there is to show compassion to those less fortunate than myself. That is a far different thing than singing "our God is an awesome God" and raising your hands for a couple hours before you get back into your new SUV and drive past all the shacks without any air-conditioning to take your family out to eat.
All of my bicycle accomplishments are shadowed by Alexi Greywall (sp), not to mention Lance Armstrong. Nor will I ever produce a book about economics to rival EF Schumacher, but I do not let that eat me up nor do I let it stop me from biking or writing.
As to anger at god, I know the feeling because I was cursing God the other day for allowing it to rain on me while I biked home, and he/she could solve our JR problems with a snap of the fingers. If there is such an entity with fingers to snap. Personally I take solace in the idea that people have an eternity of Paradise to recover from whatever horrors they experience here. Iff God comes through with that, then he/she's got my vote.

PS - People do go around and around about these things at Beliefnet, and from many perspectives.

[enki23]

10. if there were a god

it's pretty unlikely to care.
even if you did it coherently.

[TheUnionDemocrat]

12. Wanna bet?

Start out by saying I don't believe in god, and I never will.


Yes you will.

[MisterP]

13. are you a crusader?

[Blue_Chill]

17. I would think not

Being that the crusades were about greed more then they were about God. After all they needed to tell the undeucated troops something to keep them from realising they were being sent to do exactly what god did not want them to do.

"Thou shalt not kill" - clear, no translation needed.

[TheUnionDemocrat]

21. Define "Crusader"...

...Please?

[ibegurpard]

14. If you took that chip off your shoulder long enough

you might see that this thread is probably just an attempt to start a flamefest and not an invitation for thoughtful discussion.

[TheUnionDemocrat]

22. Who's got a chip on their sholder?

Just curious who you're replying to?

[Cointelpro_Papers]

37. Yeah, I'll take that bet.

[Blue_Chill]

15. I don't even know where to begin but fuck it I'll try anyway

Start out by saying I don't believe in god, and I never will.

Never say never, especially when your reasons or based in judgement and pride as opposed to the standard cold logic of a time tested atheist.

With everything going on in the world, with millions suffering, countless starving, and gross injustices peppered throughout our history, and lives, I could not worship, or accept something that created all that.

God didn't create the suffering, we did. God gave us life and free will and we did the rest.

Much like the average American citizen refuses to be bothered with voting...much less researching candidates, the average human refuses to be bothered with morality. No no we prefer to judge others and preach hate instead of actually following the moral code we demand of others. We prefer to judge eachother instead of coming together.

We break EVERY FUCKING RULE God asks us to follow and then shake a smug fist at heaven and blame God.

Not to mention the fact that if their was a god, eveything I could ever do would automatically become irrelevant.

Why is that? Is it pride that strips all meaning from your life the moment you discover you may not be the top of the universal food chain?

No matter how hard I worked, no matter how great how brave, or how intelligent I was, I would always be in the shadow of something I despise.

Something you despise for not doing everything for you. For allowing you people to act for themselves. This post has the tone of a child angry at it's mother for allowing it to fall down.

If their were gods, how could I endure not being one. Hence their are not gods.

Of course.

[ibegurpard]

16. see my post above.

n/t

[jsw_81]

27. Our fault?

How do you explain AIDS, cancer, malaria, Alzheimers and the thousands of other horrible diseases that exist in the world?

How do you explain the horror and the suffering that exists in the animal world?

How do you explain hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, floods, lightening and asteroids? Are those things our fault too?

Face it: YOUR GOD IS A PRIMITIVE MYTH. HE ONLY EXISTS IN YOUR IMAGINATION.

[Cheswick2.0]

29. your lack of understanding aside

there is no reason to say something that obnoxious. Once again, people like you give atheism a bad rep.

[Cointelpro_Papers]

39. Hmm, he makes a valid argument

and you disregaurd it as obnoxious, and giving us a bad name? Why is that Cheswick, why didn't you come back with god works in mysterious ways? Hypocrisy may work in your mind, but people will call your bluff on a open forum.

[Blue_Chill]

33. answer despite Cheswicks good point.

How do you explain AIDS, cancer, malaria, Alzheimers and the thousands of other horrible diseases that exist in the world?

So sorry that you think death is proof that there is no God. Sadly death is horrible to us because we see it as the end.


How do you explain the horror and the suffering that exists in the animal world?

Would that be the perfect system that balances itself....until humans fucked it up? Or would you mean the suffering we cause animals in a desperate effort to make sure the face paint we use won't hurt your eyes?

How do you explain hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, floods, lightening and asteroids? Are those things our fault too?

Nature which works pretty well when people aren't moronic and move into known earthquake, hurricane, and flood zones. In fact if humans actually cared for eachother instead of a quick buck we'd have homes designed to survive such events.....but there are profits to consider!

BTW - Asteroids? Are you serious?

Face it: YOUR GOD IS A PRIMITIVE MYTH. HE ONLY EXISTS IN YOUR IMAGINATION.

Of course he is, otherwise you would have to face judgement...and we can't have that now can we.

Don't forget to cross your fingers when your hour glass expires.

[Cointelpro_Papers]

41. Okay, I can't not respond to this.

"So sorry that you think death is proof that there is no God. Sadly death is horrible to us because we see it as the end."

The point was not that their is no god because he causes death, but humans are not the origination of all death, mother nature causes alot, and for you that means god causes alot, because it created mother nature. Death is horrible to us, because many times it coinsides with suffering and pain. Thank god your god gave us more suffering and pain.


"Would that be the perfect system that balances itself....until humans fucked it up? Or would you mean the suffering we cause animals in a desperate effort to make sure the face paint we use won't hurt your eyes?"

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, if you're being sarcastic, which I hope you are, or what. Thousands of animals die every year, from drought and starvation, and disease, and since "god" created all that, is he to blaim? Without humans the food chain as we know it would not exist, so many species would be dead, because the predators below us would grow in number, and kill more, and the whole system would be effected. Probably for the worse.


"Nature which works pretty well when people aren't moronic and move into known earthquake, hurricane, and flood zones. In fact if humans actually cared for eachother instead of a quick buck we'd have homes designed to survive such events.....but there are profits to consider!

BTW - Asteroids? Are you serious?"

Explain to me if we knew about flooding, hurricanes, and earthquakes, and were able to predict them in the 1800s, and before. Because I'm pretty sure that's when alot of the "moving" occured. Atleast in the U.S., everywhere else much earlier. And explain to me how you make a house that isn't effected by floods, and how you make a house that isn't effected by earthquakes, and how exactly do you make a house that can withstand and earthquake.


"Of course he is, otherwise you would have to face judgement...and we can't have that now can we.

Don't forget to cross your fingers when your hour glass expires."

I'm pretty sure we're facing judgement now, and I for one don't believe in folklore, so I know crossing my fingers will do nothing.

[Iraqi_guy]

63. cancer, malaria, Alzheimers

those things could be cause by all the pollution we have created here on Earth.

"hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, floods, lightening and asteroids?"

noone said he was going to make this place paradise for us. that is what heaven is.

[Cointelpro_Papers]

38. Hmm

Funny how you call my atheism pride, I would dare not make a post as this one had I not already accepted that their was no god. Although this post may have pride based rational, my belief system does not.

So, I'm dealing with a theist. I dunno if you're a Christian or not, but "We break EVERY FUCKING RULE God asks us to follow" if you are a Christian, every fucking rule god asked us to follow goes against the very nature of humans. And if god made humans, as I assume you believe, then god made us to abhor the rules that he gave us. He freed our bodies, but put chains on our minds.

No, pride really has nothing to do with it, it's more about a sense of importance. A god, (remember, this was based around a god that has shown itself to humans, hence me saying If i knew their was a god) makes everything humans do so incredibly irrelevant, and purposless. I've heard countless athletes, and others say "only through the glory of god". A god would shift a large amount of the uniqueness, and greatness from the individual.

Ahh, so it's true christians do see their god as a mother. Freud was right. I know that's not want you meant, but I thought I'd put it in. A human mother and a god cannot even be compared. If my mom created a monkey sanctuary, and allowed one group of monkeys to be systematically killed, while she sat back and said she wasn't going to interfere, then I would hate her for it.
I always find it amazing how people think that god gave us free will, and wasn't going to interfere, and then they atribute everything good to god, and everything bad to free will. If god can preform miracles, then he does interact with humans, and thus could stop the injustices.

[Iraqi_guy]

64. umm

"every fucking rule god asked us to follow goes against the very nature of humans."

what? thou shall not kill? thats natural? Wha?

[Az]

65. Read some Twain

Particularly Letters From Earth. I keep a copy with me at work and at home. Twains take on religion going against human nature is a work of art.

Careful not to extend your argument too far. Religions either come up with some valuable ideas along the way or they get left by the roadside. Thus not all religious rules are against human nature. Some are extremely valuable for building stronger societies and some even find their way deeper into our own nature than we have managed to get through more deliberate ways. This is not due to divine guidance. It is simple evolution at work on social constructs in the form of developing religions.

[comradebillyboy]

18. and they said the WORD

and the word was FOOD, so we ate it

[TahitiNut]

19. Just what's "political" about this?

General Discussion Forum
This very popular forum is for discussion of miscellaneous political topics.


Is someone lost? :eyes:

[jarab]

56. Seems a better fit in another venue on DU

But, when you start three "political" threads and get eight (8) replies total - try the "religious" angle and reap over two hundred (200) replies for those next three threads.
There's a message being given about where the interests lie.
...O...

[Redleg]

24. Are you an agent provacateur?

Are you trying to stir things up here at DU?

Why the profession of faith (or lack thereof)? Is this now a religion board?

[ComerPerro]

25. If "their" is proper grammar, I won't use it!!!

Sorry, I am just anal about that.

[blondeatlast]

53. Always good for a laugh, CP!

nm

[jsw_81]

26. God is a myth

It's nothing more than Santa for adults who are afraid of death.

[Cheswick2.0]

30. I'm sorry

really I am. It must be painful

[edward]

67. Did I read you post correctly?

Is this an example of Christian humility? "I feel sorry for you because I am better than you?" Kind of smug? No?

[Blue_Chill]

34. I like Ice Cream

oh yeah I like pie too. Ice cream and pie..yumm.

[trof]

28. Sorry, I'm busy

counting the number of angels dancing on the head of this pin.
If some are hanging out at the bar and not actually dancing should I count them?
:shrug:

[Cheswick2.0]

31. so what?

:shrug:

[soothsayer]

32. "The god an atheist denies never existed"

Or so the saying goes. Sez there may be a fundamental misunderstanding of what a god is or does.

[leftofthedial]

42. I'm staying out of this one

Everytime I get sucked into a religious thread, some bible thumper sends out an alert on me and I get to have a chat with a moderator.

And the truth is, all this does nothing to get the Bush Crime Family out of power and in jail where they belong.

Let's not do this.

[Trek234]

51. ha

Really? Figures they would.

What did they send an alert on you for before?

[blondeatlast]

55. Staying out here, too . . .

Christian (I hope you wouldn't call me a Bible-thumper; I'm far from it); but no good can come of this.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. Higgs is that you?

:eyes:

[Chicagonian]

47. Man created gods in his own image...

NOT the other way 'round.

[jonnyblitz]

50. Exactly!! Thank You!!!

:thumbsup:

[GOPHater]

61. Absolutely

Of course man made god in his own image, that's why god is such a hateful creep.

[GOPHater]

48. Gods, gods, gods...

Even if there were a God, at least the Christian one talked of in the bible, I would tell him to go straight to hell and would have no part in any of the hate spewed in that book.

[BushNixon04]

49. If I May Quote

the most excellent theologian Paul Tillich: "God is a symbol of God."

In other words, you are making the exact same mistake 99.9% of all people who follow any religion that teaches Diety as anthropomorphic. You have to move beyond that kind of petty visualization.

[Philosophy]

52. This just begs the question:

Why would a god even want to be worshipped?

[no one in particular]

54. Hmmm...

"Why would a god even want to be worshipped?"

Because he has a "Bush Complex"?

[blondeatlast]

57. Things that make you go hmmm . . . What a great question.

I said I'd stay out, but what a truly great question.

I honestly don't think a benevolent God would, at least in the sense of having praises lavished upon Him. (I'm a UU Christian, fwiw.)

[EV1Ltimm]

62. maybe if it climbed the theological ladder...

to be where it is today.

maybe the current god started off in the mail room, worked his way up to call center, then inside sales and after a couple of years of exceeding his quotas, the board of directors recognized his talents as a go-getter and made him god.

then, and only then, would a god say "Look at what i have accomplished!" and surround himself with yes-men.

[Loonman]

58. If I had a dictionary, I wouldn't read it!

:smoke:

[_Jumper_]

59. God is an egotistical, hateful, and cruel entity

What kind of being would make the vast majority of humanity suffer for eternity simply because it didn't stroke his(and it's always a male in the monothesitic religons. I wonder why...)ego.

[Loonman]

60. JB

Didn't James Brown say it's a man's, man's, man's, man's, man's, man's world?