I silenced a fundy student in front of my class today. Ask me anything.

[LearnedHand]

I didn't mean to do this, because I NEVER riducule my students for the (stupid) beliefs they hold. I simply demand that they engage in critical thinking.

One of my students wanted to write a paper about Bush* and his invasion of Iraq. So during the give-and-take and brainstorming discussion, this student (an older woman) said, "I take it you don't like Bush?"

I said (mindful of the fact that students may perceive they MUST agree with the instructor in order to pass), "Well, all I'm willing to say right now is that I believe his policies have been bad for our country."

"Well," she said, "he really had a mess to clean up when he came into office!"

Without thinking, I fired back: "What mess? The wealth people were experiencing? The growth in our economy? The increases in our 401Ks? The best economic growth in decades?"

The class nearly cheered, and she sank back into her seat and shut up.

Regardless of how I feel about the context of her statement, I don't ever wish to belittle my students, especially in front of other students. I VALUE her right to disagree with me, or anyone else, and I would protect her right to the death (despite the fact she probably wouldn't do the same for me). Did I do a stupid thing?

[LiberalFighter]

1. Apparentyl she doesn't understand the meaning of critical thinking

nt

[Nlighten1]

34. Critical thinkers...

Someone posted this last week.


Just for future reference...

Critical Thinkers

Are honest with themselves, acknowledging what they do not know, recognizing their limitations, and being watchful of their own errors.

Regard problems and controversial issues as exciting challenges.

Strive for understanding, keep curiosity alive, remain patient with complexity and ready to invest time to overcome confusion.

Set aside personal preferences and base judgments on evidence, deferring judgment whenever evidence is insufficient. They revise judgments when new evidence reveals error.

Are interested in other people's ideas, so are willing to read and listen attentively, even when they tend to disagree with the other person.

Recognize that extreme views (whether conservative or liberal) are seldom correct, so they avoid them, practice fair-mindedness, and seek a balanced view.

Practice restraint, controlling their feelings rather than being controlled by them, and thinking before acting.



Uncritical Thinkers


Pretend they know more than they do, ignore their limitations, and assume their views are error-free.

Regard problems and controversial issues as nuisances or threats to their ego.

Are impatient with complexity and thus would rather remain confused than make the effort to understand.

Base judgments on first impressions and gut reactions. They are unconcerned about the amount or quality of evidence and cling to earlier views steadfastly.

Are preoccupied with self and their own opinions, and so are unwilling to pay attention to others' views. At the first sign of disagreement they tend to think, "How can I refute this?"

Ignore the need for balance and give preference to views that support their established views.

Tend to follow their feelings and act impulsively.


-Vincent Ruggiero

[dmr]

48. Thanks for posting that Nlighten

I've copied and pasted that to myself. Thanks again. :)

[Bandit]

76. I can see I have some work ~ I thought I was a critical thinker

I can see there are several traits of the uncritical thinker that could apply to me. I will have to work on it. Thanks for posting that. :-)

[liberalmuse]

2. Your job is to help educate people...

you did just that. Bravo!

[bitchkitty]

3. No, you did not do a stupid thing -

if you want to teach them critical thinking, they have to learn how to be wrong, right?

You might take her aside tomorrow or whenever and tell her that you didn't mean to embarrass her, but that you have strong feelings on this issue.

[LearnedHand]

6. I actually did that today after class...

...and she said she loved me anyway. I told her she DOES NOT have to agree with me and that I support her right to believe what she wishes. She seemed okay.

[Catherine Vincent]

32. She loved you anyway? But you did embarass her.

What? Are you cute or something?;-)

[LearnedHand]

36. Nah. Not cute.

I think she meant she loved the class.

[Catherine Vincent]

68. Sorry. I made the cute comment because I thought you

were a guy.

[LearnedHand]

114. Oh, my screen name isn't about gender...

...it's about FLYFISHING! (I just thought "elk-hair caddis) was too weird.)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

69. Perfect.

[DK666]

4. She is just a drone

They challenge by going negative right away. I like the unemployed ones that swear the republicans are trying to help THEM but they had a job when the dems were in control...


I tend to have to break it off in their ass frequently.


Go Figure

[Township75]

5. Sounds as if your emotions got the best of you...

in which case I do believe you did something wrong...it was NOT engaging her necessarily, but the manner in which you did it.

She will likely just put up a wall when anti Bush info gets put towards her now..at least for a little while. Had you had a more subtle approach, especially in front of the class, I think you would have had more success in changing attitude towards Bush.

I know this from experience, both on the giving and receiving end.

[LearnedHand]

9. Exactly.

This is what I fear. I want always to keep communication open, not shut it down. Where I live (New Mexico), most of the students are very liberal, so she's already in the minority opinion group. I DO want her to THINK, THINK, THINK, and to question everything.

Keep your fingers crossed that I can mend any damage I might have done.

[frank frankly]

28. just explain to them how much this bothers/scares/enrages you

and keep it real--show them that you are affected, but that you don't want to bully anyone, will reinforce your point.

things with bushco are so fucked up that the APPROPRIATE response is mortal fear and dramatic action. you aren't above that.

[havocmom]

67. Next time this sort of thig happens, try the question approach:

ask the other person for examples and specifics. Look really interested to hear what they have to say. Let them have all the roep they need...

I have found that most cannot come up with specifics. They generally just parrot the talking points they got at their last BS feeding. If they come up with something that is hogwash, then by all means, point out the errors, citing evidence. Calm logic is a great tactic.

[LearnedHand]

72. Good idea!

nt

[Girlfriday]

7. No not wrong....

...why is it incumbent upon you to let a comment that you find errant go unanswered? Interesting that she had no retort; it could be that she was intimidated, but I suspect she had to agree.

[LiberalVoice]

16. My mother is a teacher...

...so i guess i have a good idea about the way the student/teacher relationship should work. While you may have embarassed her. there were alot of students in that class who heard what you said and hopefully understood the importance of being knowledgeable. Hopefully they saw how easily it easy to get your point across and shut people up that obviously dont know what they're talking about(if she was well informed she would have made a retort of somekind).

Then again if they were the average american college/high school student there all a bunch of idiots and the point was lost on them.

[gratuitous]

8. I hate to say this, but . . .

You probably owe your student a little apology -- in front of the class, in the same way as you delivered your comments. But it doesn't have to be grovelling, to wit:

"Yesterday, I made some comments that were pretty cutting to X, and I'd like to apologize for their tone. I'm sure that if any student in the class can make out the case for George W. Bush and the positive aspects of the war against Iraq, it's X." Then, with a bit of a grin, add, "Obviously, I'm going to require some pretty good sourcing for your argument."

[LearnedHand]

11. Ahhh, good suggestion! I'm doing it...

...next time we meet!

I did mention to the class immediately that I didn't expect them to agree with me, only that they engage in critical thinking and be able to support whatever argument they make.

But the apology is absolutely the right thing to do. Thanks!

[Warpy]

25. Cutting?

She stated the facts: a booming economy and a hopeful, employed population were hardly "a mess." Perhaps the only lapse was in not having the student stand up and define what she meant when she said baby Bush had a MESS to clean up.

Right wingers have been taught catch phrases and buzzwords. Having them define these things is the first step in breaking the logjam in their brains which prevents critical thinking.

Ask a right winger what they mean when they say "family values." Ask them to tell you what they're intersted in conserving, since they call themselves "conservative." If they provide you with anything but a shocked silence (the typical reaction), then dialogue can begin.

[JHB]

98. I don't think "cutting" is the right word either...

...since they weren't directed at the student ad hominem, but the reflexive "counterblast", even though factually correct, did send a "don't step on the prof's pet subjects" message (Heaven knows I've encountered it myself, and it was not a false impression).

Since that's not the classroom atmosphere you're trying to project, you'd be right to apologize to the class for jumping on it the way you did (though not for WHAT you said...) and if it's appropriate to the day's class, pick up from there on examining assumptions and getting people to think about why they have the views that they do - certainly a proper subject for a critical thinking class.

[msmcghee]

10. I detect a bit of guilty concience here.

That doesn't mean it is justified (your guilt, that is).

I'm sure that if next session you explain to the class that you were worried that you had treated that student unfairly, and that no-one should ever feel that expressing their opinions honestly would cause you to change their grades - no matter what you thought about those opinions - they (and she maybe) would foegive you - if not even tell you that no apology was necessary.

I think it is good that you are concerned. I doubt that any RW instructors I have ever had in the past would have been similarly concerened. It would be a good lesson for your students in what being a progressive really means.

B-)

[LearnedHand]

13. Oh, man! Guilt is my middle name!

I had a long-running joke with a friend of mine about all the world's ills in modern times: plagues, Black Death, slavery, etc.: they're all directly attributable to me!

But, as I mentioned above, an apology is always in order. Doesn't cost me a thing, and it might make the student more comfortable.

[Supply Side Jesus]

45. Guilt? then you must be a liberal!

Conservatives fuled by rage

Liberals fueld by guilt

So I ask you all, who are the compassionate ones? :)

[eablair3]

12. no, if

>>>I VALUE her right to disagree with me, or anyone else, and I would protect her right to the death (despite the fact she probably wouldn't do the same for me). Did I do a stupid thing?<<<

I assume you have conveyed that openly to the students and made it clear -- explicitly clear -- to the whole class that you value people's right to disagree with you as well as their participation, no matter their positions. If so, then I'd say "no" to your question.

[ShaneGR]

14. Unfortunately, yes

You need to point out to her that, when being a critical thinker, she needs to counter these points. She's wrong. But the point is that you need to frame all of your lectures in terms of academics.

[TellTheTruth]

15. The RW sheeple

NEED our help. You did her a great favor by enlightening her. Now she can truly think critically instead of repeating what Rush Limbaugh has told her. Being a shrub supporter she more than likely gets her political info from FAUX News and Rush. Yes! You did good! :7

[captain_crunch]

17. Yes, you did a stupid thing.

You need to encouage independent thinking. Not tell them what to think or what to believe. Are you new at teaching??

[LearnedHand]

19. No, not new at teaching,

...just new at handling the ultra-ultra-facist dictatorship and the liberal-bashing. See my posts above for how I will handle this next time I see her.

[greyl]

21. How does asking a question NOT encourage independent thought? nt

[SlutBunwalla]

24. She didn't tell her what to think. She disagreed with her.

Huge difference. Are you new at reading comprehension?

[rman]

50. she was called on her statements

what would be wrong with that?

[Robin Hood]

58. Wer'e waiting for your brilliant response

On how you figure that was a stupid thing to do.

[captain_crunch]

66. These two statements said it all for me....

I silenced a fundy student in front of my class today

Without thinking, I fired back: "What mess? The wealth people were experiencing? The growth in our economy? The increases in our 401Ks? The best economic growth in decades?"

The class nearly cheered, and she sank back into her seat and shut up.

Wow! way to encourage independent thought!
P.S.
is that brilliant enough for you.

"those that can't do, teach"

[Robin Hood]

116. How is what he said

a discouragement to critical thinking? Was it a lie? No. Was he confronting a lie? Yes. So how did he discourage critical thinking? He showed her what critical thinking looked like.

The students cheering him on, he could not help or have control over.

[mike_c]

18. I'm absolutely unrepentant about repig bashing in class....

But then I teach biology courses so my political comments never overlap with my expectations for student performance. Then too, I teach at a VERY liberal university where my views are shared by the overwhelming majority of students in my classes-- I did once receive a student eval comment along the lines of "I didn't pay good money to listen to the prof criticize the president...." Oh well.

[cally]

20. I wish most professors were like you!

You think and you care. It wouldn't hurt to give an apology but I'm not sure it's necessary. I do think you need to make clear to your class that their opinion and political beliefs will not influence their grade and that you would value well thought out debate. Too many instructors grade upon the student's political beliefs. Good luck tomorrow.

[spooky3]

22. Are you a political science prof?

That would affect my reaction.

One problem of course is the power differential; it's not as if she talked with you as a peer, over coffee.

But I agree that you were much more sensitive than most people would be and hope you won't be too hard on yourself.

If I were a writing professor, for example, and not a political science prof, I might have responded to her first question by saying my views were complicated and I would be happy to talk with her outside of class about her paper.

[LearnedHand]

37. I'm a writing professor...

...and we were brainstorming ideas for their upcoming essay. Many students wanted to deal with these issues, which was how the topic came up.

[LearnedHand]

38. Thanks, Cally

I want to reinforce that ANY of them are free to offer their opinions without fear of ridicule. It's important to me, and I always hope that I can win some of the RWers over.

[greyl]

23. You sorta took the fallacious bait though.

Her statement did nothing to contradict that "bush's policies have been bad for the country".
I mean, if you wanted to continue a "proper" argument, maybe you could have asked "assuming for the moment that that is true, does that make it ok to have policies that are bad for the country?" Or better yet just repeated your first statement.

But it's easy to judge from after the fact, just don't worry about it.:)


edit:wd fallacious spelling

[LearnedHand]

39. Yup, I did. And I don't often bite that bait...

...which is the part that sort of surprised me!

[Pobeka]

26. You did the right thing.

She brought up a point in a public setting. You are allowed to respond in that public setting. Non-response would have been taken as an endorsement of her statement.

You did the right thing. Don't feel guilty. Republicans are forceful all the time at pushing lies around and they don't feel guilty. We sure as heck don't need to feel guilty about forcefully pointing out the truth.

[LearnedHand]

40. I know, and I certainly want her to examine her own views...

...but I don't want to stoop to Republican tactics when insisting that students examine their views.

[janekat]

27. Can't blame you - you were restrained if you ask me!!! n/t

[janekat]

29. the fact all the other students backed you up shows you weren't

too inappropriate. I would talk to her after class and maybe apologize though if you think you could get in trouble for it

[Catherine Vincent]

30. No, you didn't do a stupid thing.

I understand what you did, I wouldn't want to ridicule anyone like that in front of others either, but she had it coming. If she would only THINK before she spout off like that.

You did good.

[passthecorn]

31. A concern

It seems that in the aftermath of what happened, you have handled it well, by apologizing. Harsh words only communicate that the conclusion is wrong (to you) not that they were not using critical thinking.

This brings up an issue that troubled me all through my liberal arts college experience. I was told that I was being taught how to think not what to think. In reality, I was being told that my upbringing (southern, republican, evangelical) had taught me poorly, and that I needed to think differently, namely different conclusions. It always seemed about conclusions rather than process. I would hope that if an anti-war, Democrat were to pop-off, that you would challenge them as well, even if you agreed with the statement.

The most serious example came about my senior year which was 10 years ago. We were discussing science, religion and origins, and I made (what I thought any way) was a reasoned opinion against the philosophical premises of uniformitarianism and naturalism. Then a student behind me asked if I believed in light bulbs. If I did, I had to believe in evolution as well, because it was all science. The logic of that is atrocious. However, it went unchallenged by the prof, who agreed with the class, the "he got me." This professor, is a highly respected national author on religious/pluarist/ecological issues, but since they shared the conclusion, no challenge of thinking was offered.

I really want to see professors challenging the way people think. I just hope that professors, both progressive and conservative can do a better job of challenging their own as well.

[LearnedHand]

41. I absolutely agree that professors should be...

...challenging their students to think through their issues. I do, in fact, challenge ALL my students -- whether they agree with me or not -- to question WHY they have taken a particular stand. I want to see whether they have swallowed some media-approved stance or whether they've thought about the issue on their own.

This that happened today was a very rare incident for me, which is why I felt a bit shaken by it. That is, I have VERY strong beliefs personally, but I don't expound on them to my students. I simply question everything they say with the hopes that that will lead them to know how to question themselves.

Unfortunately, several of my students have told me that in my own little college, some of the professors (who here are quite liberal) have done such things as offer extra credit for attending an anti-war rally, but refused the request of extra credit for attending a support-the-troops rally. I think this is just as wrong as pig-headed right-wing thinking.

[synthia]

33. why do you label her a fundy?

do you believe your students deserve respect?

[LearnedHand]

42. Ya know, synthia, that was purely a typo on my part.

When I came back to the thread this evening, I realized I'd said "fundy," when what I meant to type was "freeper." Don't know where that came from. Momentary brain fart, I think.

Yes, I absolutely believe my students derserve respect, and I give it to them in spades. Without question. Without waiting for them to respect me, first.

[Blecht]

35. Your students are lucky to have you

You sound like an excellent teacher.

[LearnedHand]

43. Thanks, Blecht...

I just hope they feel the same way! (But I enjoy teaching, nonetheless.)

[janx]

44. The answer to your question lies in what you are doing in the classrooom.

I teach at a community college, and I try not to bring politics into my teaching. I'm there to teach students how to write, and it's the most rewarding work you can imagine. If a student asks me about my political preferences outside of class, I'm willing to talk about it, but my political preferences are only one part of me, and that part serves no purpose in the classroom. I'm trying to teach people how to be open-minded and critical thinkers, writers, and readers. If that is done successfully, ignorance is at a disadvantage, and the rest takes care of itself.

I think the best we can do is to teach by example. I'm currently using an essay from a textbook (among other essays) called "Laura Bush: Bitch or Victim?" that deals with the horrible media treatment of "First Ladies." (It was originally published Slate by a fellow by the name of Noah.)

Don't allow yourself to be baited. Higher education is bashed constantly by the far right-wing these days as it is. You didn't do anything terrible or criminal; you just reacted. Far worse has been done by many other teachers in higher ed., and we're all human. It just doesn't seem like a healthy way to go, to me.

[Andromeda]

46. No, you didn't do a stupid thing.

She's the one who invited comment by her stupid statement. You had an obligation to set her straight.

[0rganism]

47. Strangely enough, the error may have been earlier

> One of my students wanted to write a paper about Bush* and his
> invasion of Iraq. So during the give-and-take and brainstorming
> discussion, this student (an older woman) said, "I take it you
> don't like Bush?"

See, you were giving off a vibe to this woman that you disliked her (apparently) beloved leader. The objection to her apologetic seems more like a culmination of an earlier situation than a "stupid thing" in itself. Somehow you got yourself caught up in the particulars of the argument (during the give-and-take brainstorm), gave a little extra, and that's where the misstep lies.

You got baited, and slipped off your Ivory Tower for a second or three.

[HazMat]

49. Sorry, but what you did was wrong and immature

As a teacher, you should be impartial and apolitical. Your students should never know your political views or any other views. You should've answered the student by saying, "My personal opinion of Mr. Bush or Mr. Clinton isn't relevant. As an educator, my job is to present all sides of the story, so the students can make up their own minds."

Just think how you would feel if you were a student and the teacher was ripping a Democrat. Just think how you would feel if you knew your teacher was a right wing ideologue. Even if that teacher was "nice" -- it would still bother you. It would bother me.

Sorry, I can't stand teachers and others who should be doing their job, but instead go around trying to push their own personal beliefs. That's whats wrong with this country. Everyone has an agenda and every interaction is a political struggle. The classroom should be free of that BS. Let the students formulate their own opinions. If I was a student in your class I would've defended the fundie. The students should be able to voice whatever opinions they want; the teacher must be an impartial, honest broker for the sake of all of the students. You took sides and should apologize to the entire class. It's probably too late though, since they all know you're completely biased.

Don't mean to be harsh, but I feel strongly that teachers should be impartial, bosses should be impartial.. anyone in a leadership position should be impartial. Academia is notoriously left wing; corporate America is notoriously right wing. It shouldn't be this way. A person should be able to go to school, to work , wherever without having to feel marginalized.

[boilertommy]

51. Haz Mat making sense

Yeah, I think the teacher in question just came here looking for support for his unprofessional and bullying behavior. This "critical thinking" thing is just an excuse.

If it was a political or historical class thinhs would be different but what, writing?

Part of being tolerant is that you gotta be, well, tolerant.

[rman]

52. doesn't make sense

"Well," she said, "he really had a mess to clean up when he came into office!"

You say the teacher should have "answered" (to a statement that's not a question):

"My personal opinion of Mr. Bush or Mr. Clinton isn't relevant. As an educator, my job is to present all sides of the story, so the students can make up their own minds."

I'd say the teacher did exactly what you say he should do. The student presented one side of the story, the teacher presened the other side of the story. Which is: there was no big mess when Bush came into office.

Or are you saying the teacher should only say he has to present all sides, and then not actually present all sides (keeping in mind the student already had presented one side)?

[HazMat]

54. the teacher took a side

the teacher should've presented both sides if any side was to be presented at all, i.e. "the positive case for Bush is ..., the negative case for Bush is..". It should be done in the same exact manner as a debate about any other historical figure, like Abraham Lincoln or JFK or Tom Paine or Harriet Tubman or ANYONE.

Remember, there are other students in the class who MAY be conservatives and who may feel marginalized now.

The student was simply baiting the teacher into exposing a bias, and that is exactly what happened.

Teachers should play the role of impartial moderator and never argue the case in terms of "I", but in terms of "some people say .. other people say.. this is the case for X. the argument against it would be Y".

[stickdog]

55. Exposing a bias?

Dammit, teachers should be themselves.

It's a classroom, not a fucking group therapy session.

The problem, if there was one, was not the "bias" but the adversarial way that the teacher addressed the student with whom he disagreed.

[HazMat]

60. Teachers should do their job

Be themselves at home.

Yes, it is a classroom -- not a fucking soapbox for the teacher to push an agenda.

The teacher should teach instead of acting like Paul Begala or Bob Novak on Crossfire whoring for applause.

[stickdog]

61. What about your boss at work? Can he mention politics?

What's the difference?

[stickdog]

53. Bullshit. Teachers are not automatons. Neither are students.

Forming real relationships with your students helps to engage them in your subject.

Bringing current events and funny anecdotes into your class discussion helps keep up interest and motivation.

We are talking about a college class I assume. If adults can't handle the fact that other adults might not share their exact political beliefs, they'll have a damn tough time in the workplace, now won't they?

[HazMat]

59. Teachers are supposed to be impartial leaders

So if the teacher was a Nazi, it would be OK with you if they pushed their viewpoint when the subject of WWII came up ?

If they were fiercely pro-Bush, you would be OK with them trashing a Democrat ?

The only personal relationship I would form with such a teacher is one of animosity.

Teachers are in leadership positions. They cannot show favoritism. Taking sides in a political debate means the other side is marginalized. Students are on the same level.. peers. They are free to voice their opinions. Coworkers can do this also (although it is not advised). But the CEO should never voice a political opinion.

The way to engage the student, the worker, whatever is to encourage them to express THEIR opinions and ideas, while the leader maintains an impartial position. Bias in the leadership only RESTRICTS the free flow of ideas by establishing a correct set of political views (the leader's) and the wrong way to think (the opposing viewpoint).

Fundie teachers, conservative corporate CEOs, left wing professors, right wing military leaders .. they all make me sick. People should be able to go to school, work, wherever and not have to deal with this shit.

[stickdog]

62. Was Kotter a good teacher on "Welcome Back, Kotter"?

As far as I'm concerned you are far too thin skinned.

I've had very conservative teachers. I hammered them until they said uncle. Sometimes they hammered me when I didn't know as much as I thought I knew. It was MOTIVATING.

When I taught classes, I had a little Al Franken routine going. All in good fun. The students loved me. I always got the highest ranking.

Of course, there were one or two babies like you who cried because they thought they were in kindergarten and the big bad teacher wasn't being wishy washy enough for their tiny wittle brains.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

100. Challenging a student's faulty logic

is an essential part of the teaching process.

I never taught writing and had little reason to discuss politics, since I was a language teacher, but sometimes the students would come up with some half-digested bit of information about Japanese culture or society that they then elaborated into an even wilder theory.

In such situations, it was NOT my duty to nod and say, "Oh, that's interesting," but to pick their ideas apart, ask them about the sources of their information and the logical process by which they had arrived at their theory. If I had kept silent, I would have been tacitly endorsing their erroneous beliefs.

Perhaps an emotional reaction was unwarranted, but it is NOT "bad teaching" to ask students to justify their beliefs. Both conservative and liberal students can be guilty of faulty reasoning, and in order to become critical thinkers, they need to be made aware of where their logic falls apart. They will be much better off if they construct a solid foundation of accurate information, logic, and thorough contemplation of the implications of their positions.

Conceivably, a right-wing professor could make left-wing students stronger by showing them where the weaknesses in their positions lie.

[Iverson]

65. "Academia is notoriously left wing"

That's the right-wing mythology. It holds true for majorities in some liberal arts departments, but not a whole lot else.

Administration in academia is some of the most conservative and backward that you can find. This is also the trend, as the notion of education-as-commodity has prevailed nearly everywhere in the US, so it ain't changing anytime soon.

While I personally resist offering my own opinions on issues in the classroom, I cannot agree that all utterances are verboten. As another poster has pointed out, college students are adults, and their tender ears won't be scandalized by a left-leaning viewpoint.

Also the notion of true objectivity is problematic, and "equal time" even more so. Down that road, creationists demand equal time in biology class. The state of the culture is such that the theory of evolution is regarded not so much as scientific as it is evidence of left-wing dominance in higher learning. Sad, isn't it? What does neutrality mean in that case?

edited typo

[GinaMaria]

111. Academia is notoriously left wing?

I've always wondered where these places are that are so notoriously left wing. I went to a state university in a blue state and never heard any left wing ideology in the classroom. My political science class was strongly pro repug (regan years). I suspected that the professor was moderate to conservative in his ideology, but everyone had equal time. The campus was full of conservative students. I feel like I've missed out when I hear this. Maybe it has more to do with when I went to school. :shrug:

Could it be that different colleges in the university have different slants? I can tell you I've never seen or heard of a long haired aging hippy teaching at the Biz school. Have you? It's sort of a funny image when I think of it. In fact, majors like Biz, accounting, marketing seem very conservative. Students with these majors also seem (seemed) to be more conservative in thought.

People who think a certain way will do well in one profession over another, or may be attracted to one field of study over another. There used to be tests for high school students that measured their attitudes and beliefs and based on the results would indicate which professionals you matched. I knew someone who matched up as a flight attendant. The results said that his attitudes and beliefs most closly matched those who choose to be flight attendants. He chose to become a comedian instead.

Could it also be that those who most would lable as liberal are more attracted to teaching? Maybe those with more conservative ideologies prefer other work?

How are science and math classes liberally biased? Science and math seek exactness. Politics is far from exact. I can understand a liberal arts degree having a more left sided slant, but labling Academia notoriously left wing seems to ignore the mosiac of ideas and thought and study available at the university level.

I can't imagine that pre-med students are discussing politics in the classroom with the exception of healthcare law and how it impacts them and their patients and institutions they may someday work for, but even that topic seems more suited for med school than pre med. Their class time should be focused on science and preparing them to get into med school. Politics effects each profession and I would assume that the bias or slant in these fields of study are toward what benefits the profession. Certainly, that has been my experience and the experience of those I know. Did you experience something different?

[LearnedHand]

115. My school is fairly left-leaning...

...but as you said, it varies among the instructors. The univeristy I attended was neither one way or the other, but the professors had their individual beliefs.

We talk about public issues because it's appropriate to the classes I teach.

[gottaB]

56. Don't beat yourself up over it, please

From your decription of the exchange, what that student did to you was provocative. She asked you about your personal views. She couldn't keep from arguing with you, putting you on the defensive. Ask yourself if that's really the way things went down. If you're satisfied that you did nothing to provoke this student, you owe no apologies.

[Robin Hood]

57. Did you do a stupid thing?!!

Now that is a stupid question. You spoke your mind, it's your right, enjoy it.

Good work, You get an A+.

[IndianaGreen]

63. Go back and take Intro to Education 101

You handled the situation poorly!

[Iverson]

64. not stupid, but careless (and suggestion)

There is more than one way to handle these situations, of course, and it has been a topic of lively discussion with colleagues.

You might want to consider this. Before any argumentative essay assignment like the one you faced, review the difference between argument and polemics, or at least unsupported assertions. Also review the difference between evidence-type supports and appeals to needs and values. You probably have several textbooks that refer to the Toulmin model of argument, which is a good basic way to go.

Personally, I tell the students that I have passionate feelings about issues, but as long as we are in the classroom, I disagree with everybody. That isn't hard, with their still-developing critical thinking skills. If they want my personal beliefs, they can ask during office hours or other times outside of the classroom.

Best of luck.

[ProfessorGAC]

70. No! You're Clean.

You're job is to point out the flaws in their thought processes. Hers was flawed by the fact that she had all her facts wrong.

What good would a professor be if they couldn't point out the fundmental flaws in a students premise?
The Professor

[Iris]

73. yeah, my post below is basically what he's trying to say!

[Iris]

71. I struggle with this myself, but

although I believe everyone has a right to her opinion, I also think it should be recognized that not all opinions are valid.

Would it really be educating her to allow her to make ridiculous statements? What is that called in writing/rhetoric - faulty logic or false arguments or something?

I work in a writing lab at a 2 yr. college. I am always amazed at the ignorance of the students who come in. They have no research skills and need to be taught how to form reasonable opinions. I had a student come in to get help on an opinion paper about late-term abortion. All her sources were straight off the internet - groups that were completely pro-life. She seemed confused when I suggested she should try to find information about why late-term abortions are performed. She had the idea that this was a procedure done every day on women's lunch hours. I tried to get her to go to the library so they could show her how to find information from both sides, so she could reasonable argue against this procedure, but she didn't "have time" and ended up making a D- on the paper, which was a fairly generous grade, in my opinion.

[LearnedHand]

77. It's very difficult...

...to help students understand the difference between "you're-either-with-us-or-against-us" thinking and the thinking that tries to understand the complexity of most public-discourse issues. I encourage students to voice all opinions just for that reason.

This is why it's so important to me NOT to silence someone who offers an opinion. I will question that person's knowledge of and critical thinking about the situation, but I do NOT want to silence anyone. I just want all of them to THINK (and maybe, become active participants in our messy democracy).

And I want them to broaden their source of information -- don't just take it from Faux News.

[Iris]

81. yes. Fox News is one of the popular websites at this college!

I think you just lost your marbles for a moment. Don't sweat it; it happens. Just try to remember next time to draw her out more. Like you could have asked "What were some of the problems he had to correct when he got into office?" and then encouraged other students to reply, which I'm sure is what you would normally do.

Sometimes it just gets to you though - seeing a whole generation indoctrinated by the media.

[Cocoa]

74. are you trying to prove David Horowitz right?

also, to identify her as a "fundy" reveals a serious religious bias, especially since the thing wasn't about religion.

I went to the Univ. of Wisconsin in the nineties, which was supposedly one of the "worst" examples of leftist indoctrination, according to the culture warriors. But I never observed a single instance of it the whole time I was there.

[LearnedHand]

78. Sorry, don't know who David Horowitz is

My use of "fundy" was a typo; I meant to type "freeper," but was tired and distracted.

[ProfessorGAC]

79. David Horowitz Is Right

Of course there's a liberal bias in academia. That's where the smart people are!
The Professor

[Iris]

83. yes. I've always thought it was obvious that if you were truly

educated, you'd come out leaning a little bit left because you realize things are not always (or ever!) black and white.

[tjdee]

112. There's actually a study that says

that the more education you get, the more likely you are to be a liberal. Saw it a few times in the papers, haven't been able to find it online though.

[Cocoa]

96. he goes further

he says that higher education has become left-wing indoctrination, and that dissenting opinions are silenced.

The anecdote described above would support him, but again, in my experience I never saw anything like this.

[Iris]

103. the anecdote in post #93 would also support an opposing view

[Cocoa]

104. I agree

and just so there's no confusion, I think Horowitz is full of shit, base d on what I saw first hand in college classrooms.

[Postman]

75. No, you weren't wrong. You were just frustrated with the BS......

coming down from on high, trickling down to the stupid masses to regurgitate.

This is only possible because the parrots who pass for voters are not educated about the history of this country vis-a-vis rich vs. poor, wealth vs. poverty, labor vs. management.

Tell your "student" to start reading and stop listening to the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity.

For starters, how about Howard Zinn or Michael Parenti?.....

[LearnedHand]

86. I always suggest that my students do themselves a favor...

...by reading good general-readership magazines that publish thoughtful, intelligent essays discussing current issues. I tell them that whether they agree with the views of the writers or not, simply KNOWING what's being discussed in public discourse will make them better thinkers, and possibly, better writers.

My hope is always to ignite their passions for participation in public discourse and even in the democratic process in general. The students here are highly intelligent and in general are aware of what's going on in the world around them. And they are generally ready for and eager to take on critical thinking about public issues.

That has not always been the case where I've taught. I used to live and teach in the South -- the bible-belt heartland of the South -- and I had a much more difficult time encouraging critical thinking and discussion there. My theory about the difference is NOT that the students in the South are less intelligent, but that the homogeneous, one-history, one-color, one-religion culture stifles the ability to recognize that there is more than one way to think about an issue.

[Patriot_Spear]

80. Had a similar experiece...

Fundie kid in a mid-level class on the Early Church who liked to quote the King James version of the Bible- unfortunately for him, many of the passages he cited changed meaning when translated from the original Greek.

Asked how a book written 1500 years after the fact and translated throught two languages was more accurate than an original language text 200 years after the fact- no answer.

I asked why the books of the old Testament were in a different order than the Torah- no answer.

I asked him about the role of the books of the Apocrypha- no answer.

You feel bad, but like the saying goes, 'Faith and Reason shoes are the sandals on our feet; you can get farther with both than just one'.

[MassDem4Life]

82. Unless this is a college level

class on political theory, your behaviour is reprehensible.

Are you proud of the fact that as an adult, and an educator, you squashed the differing opinion of a KID?

Do you think that that child may think twice before mouthing anything controversial in a class, again?

For all of your protestations of how you VALUE her right to dissent with your opinion, YOU just desroyed that which you claim to value.

Educators should teach the facts. Not their own opinions.


btw, critical thinking embraces dissent.

[Iris]

85. ease up.

She made a mistake. She's not ruined forever as a teacher. This is something she can learn from, which will, in the end, make her a better teacher.

[LearnedHand]

89. (1) The student was an older adult

(2) I enthusiastically embrace dissent -- always. That's the foundation of critical thinking. Did you read ALL my posts?

[Patriot_Spear]

91. Spare me...

Are you seriously saying at the college level we're supposed to let ignorance stand in deferrence 'political correctness'?

That's nuts.

[ProfessorGAC]

105. Reading For Comprehension Is A Skill

Work on it, could you please? The whole premise of your criticism is flawed because you didn't read carefully enough.
The Professor

[LearnedHand]

117. Hmmm.

What are "facts"?

[im4edwards]

84. what does this have to do with fundamentalism ?

she might better have been characterized as a conservative, republican or the colorful other monikers used around here but "fundy" is inappropriate and misleading.

And as an educator, you were wrong to do that. I'm not saying stupid, its just wrong. You had better hope that this does not get back to your administration. You are supposed to be better than that. I'm not saying that she was right, only that your response was illconsidered and unprofessional.

[Iris]

87. see post #78

And even if the admins. heard about this, it'd just be one person's word against the other. Most people don't get fired for one simple mistake.

[im4edwards]

93. thanks for the correction, re admins and mistakes Ms Ito would disagree

I saw a posting a week or two ago about a Margaret Ito, a business writting teacher as a community college in NC, who lost her job after being reprimanded for making an anti Bush statement at ehe start of class and failing to guarantee that this would not happen again.

I'd say it was quite possible.

[Iris]

102. The person you are describing was given an "out"

He/she chose not to take it. So, in fact, was not fired outright. This person chose to take the high ground, but in my mind it would not be all that difficult to ban political talk in a business writing class if the person really wanted to keep his/her job.

I'm not saying it would be an easy or fair compromise, but sometimes you just have to do what you have to do. Sometimes you're in a position to stick to your principles and walk out and sometimes you're not.

[im4edwards]

106. thats why I said "lost her job" and not "fired"

however berating a student is rather worse than making a personal political statement. The fact remains that this person should be concerned about keeping their job and probably take pre-emptive action to perserve it.

[Iris]

108. eh. I'm of the "Let's not borrow trouble" school.

I figure if something like that happened and I was approached by an admin., I'd admit the mistake, mention things I've tried to do to correct it, ask for suggestions and move on.

[im4edwards]

109. I'll admit its debatable to go preemptive or not

kinda have to have been there, know the locality, know the administration etc. I based it mostly on being honest about things in general. If you screw up, say you screwed up. It demonstrates character and a lesson learned and for me, makes it easier to look in the mirror. Its risky, but for me its the right way to be.

[LearnedHand]

90. See my posts above

"fundy" was a typo; I meant "freeper" (but "conservative" would have carried less baggage.)

On edit: I just realized that because I used to live in the South, in my mind, being conservative WAS the same thing as being a fundy. Hmmm. Hadn't realized that connection in my brain. So maybe "fundy" was a Fraudian slip?

(Note to BRAIN: pay attention, stupid!)

[LeahMira]

88. What mess?

I would have stopped at that and not made a list. Just ask for specifics from her, then ask for responses/reactions from the class.

If you haven't heard from the ACLJ in ten days, I guess you can relax! }(

Seriously, we are all human here, and sometimes say things we later wish we could take back. Maybe next class just admit that you forgot yourself for a minute. Maybe give the lady a chance to name some specifics at that time.

[LearnedHand]

92. That's what I plan to do.

I always want them to feel free to express their ideas and opinions. And now, time for another class! (Brain: engage FIRST! Mouth: WAIT!!!)

[im4edwards]

94. I know you feel that way but it will never happen in that class again

too bad for them, better luck next time.

[LearnedHand]

97. Oh, not true at all!

This is a classful of intelligent, funny, mouthy, engaged students! They'll launch right in, and I'll make sure I'm the target next time (instead of one of the students)!

[im4edwards]

107. I hope you're right

but there is at least one student who won't look at you or possibly other teachers quite the same way again. The shallowness of youth might allow the others to miss this and go on as they always have.

[Wickerman]

95. nm3damselfly , I think you are a great teacher

Just the fact that you would post this and allow the board to pick apart your process indicates that you are willing to examine your methods and open to criticism from any and all. You're not afraid to learn. You show compassion to your students, humility (apologizing) and a human side by exposing something personal about yourself. If had teachers like you in undergrad perhaps I would've gone to class on occassion, making my transistion to grad school a tad easier.

thanks for sharing this.

[LearnedHand]

99. Thanks, lunabush

And thanks to all who HAVE picked apart my thinking on this. I always learn about myself and how I can handle such a situation differently. DUers are an INCREDIBLY intelligent, funny, grumpy collection of folks! :yourock:

I love teaching, and I gave up an incredibly well-paying career to do so. The opportunity to interact with students, however, more than makes up for the breathtaking cut in pay! It's worth every dime and every heartache!

[rocktivity]

101. You did right all the way

from challenging her sound-bite generalities with FACTS to telling her you didn't intend to embarass her as opposed to "apologizing." I agree that you should tell the rest of your class what you told her personally, but DON'T say you're "sorry." You're being paid to teach them HOW to think critically, after all, and that the right to disagree works both ways.


rocknation

[HFishbine]

110. No

Not a stupid thing, but if you really want to advance her education (and perhaps restore her trust in you), publicly encourage her to pursue her thesis at the next class. Let her try to make the case that Bush inherited a mess and that things are better now. Encourage her to explore and she'll learn.

[LearnedHand]

118. I'd already thought the same thing!

This particular assignment could support her building her case in that way! Thanks!

[Paragon]

113. You were obligated to stop at "What mess?"

Then you could allow her to make her stupid-ass points, which you and/or the class could've then debunked easily.

By slamming the door on her, you've lost your impartiality with that student and probably a few others.

[LearnedHand]

119. Right. That's exactly....

...where I should have stopped!

(Me and my BIG mouth!)

On edit: fixed my fumble-fingered spelling.