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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 11:43 AM
Original message
Iraqis are not as dumb as chickens
Edited on Thu Jun-30-05 12:10 PM by Jack Rabbit
EDITED for typing and grammar

Based on a post from another thread.

Sometimes, it's hard to tell whether the neoconservatives are evil or just self-deluded.

Since Bush and his neoconservative aides knew that Saddam was not a threat to any one and had no ties to al Qaida, we have to look elsewhere for the real justifications for invading Iraq.

There is the idea that they were going to bring "democracy" to Iraq, although the neocons don't mean the same thing by democracy that I do. By democracy, I mean a state based on universal and equal citizenship. When the neocons say democracy, they really mean global free market capitalism, which in turn resembles a colonial relationship of unequals in which the wealth of the bonded nation flows to corporations in the free nation. Some well-meaning neoconservatives, like some well-meaning intellectuals in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries who justified slavery or colonialism, actually think kind of freeman-bondsman relationship benefits the bondsman. It's hard to tell who is well meaning and who isn't, since any neocon who knows that this is a lot of horsepuckey is also going to use this argument rather than allow himself to be caught saying what he really thinks. What the more realistic neocon really thinks is that all civilization is an illusion and that all law is just the law of the jungle dressed in a business suit in which elite predators rule and devour their prey from among the masses.

Suppose Colonel Sanders kills the fox who has been raiding a hen house and says the hen house is now his; does he think that the chickens are going to love him for ridding them of the fox? Not if they know what he really wants. The neoconservative invasion of Iraq was like that.

Yet the neocons thought the Iraqi people would be so grateful that they got rid of Saddam for them that they would simply allow them take anything they wanted in return, like everything on which Iraq's future is based. Did they really think it was going to be that easy?

Of course, real chickens would have no idea what Colonel Sanders really wants and Colonel Sanders really doesn't care about their fear of the fox. However, Iraqis are intelligent human beings who know what Bush and his friends wanted by getting Saddam out of the way and it didn't have a lot to do with democracy or liberation or even their welfare. Prior to the invasion, how many cab drivers in Baghdad or longshoremen in Basra did the neocons consult to see what kind of Iraq they wanted after Saddam? They were less interested in the views of common Iraqis who suffered under Saddam than in the views of an embezzler who lived his entire adult life abroad. Did the neocons think that this would be lost on cab drivers and longshoremen? Did they think, in light of that, that Iraqis would not see some irony in the claims that the neocons invaded Iraq to bring democracy?

The neoconservatives no more liberated Iraq by getting rid of Saddam than the British liberated India by getting rid of a few tyrannical rajahs. The British invaded India for the benefit of the East India Company and the neoconservatives invaded Iraq for the benefit of Halliburton. At least the British maintained a force in India adequate to quell uprisings against imperial rule. British imperialists had fewer delusions about their purpose or in the ability of the natives to assert there own interests than American neoconservatives. The British imperialists knew that the natives they oppressed weren't anything like chickens.

This whole neoconservative enterprise in Iraq could have worked with a light force only if common, work-a-day Iraqis were as dumb as chickens. Getting rid of Saddam was easy and they knew it would be easy; they knew he was a paper tiger. For that purpose, a light force was adequate. But the war wasn't really against Saddam. It was against the Iraqi people whom they knew or should have known would resist the imposition of a neoliberal socio-economic structure on them that this war is fought. It is a colonial war, not a liberation. For that purpose, a light force is inadequate.

That is why we are in this quagmire. That is why this proclaimed liberation of Iraq features torture in Abu Grhaib and general slaughter in Falluja. That is why the neoconservative occupation of Iraq looks so much like Saddam's brutal rule, only without the sufficient force to keep most Iraqis permanently brutalized.

As a democrat, I have no desire whatsoever to be an emperor. As an American citizen, I have no desire to take from the Iraqi people what belongs to them. Therefore, I am not asking how large a force would be adequate to complete the mission, since I see the mission as one of colonial theft rather than liberation. I believe a legitimate Iraqi government, free of the taint of manipulation by a foreign imperial power, could organize its own security forces as easily as an insurgency has been organized and take down people like Zarqawi, who has no more concern for the welfare of the Iraqi people than has Dick Cheney.

Therefore, the question I ask is: How and how quickly can American troops withdraw from Iraq?
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. well put. EOM
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. My Own View, Sir
Is that withdrawl of our troops should commence yesterday, if not sooner. The longer we are in that place, the more harm is done to our own nation, in terms of lost prestige, demonstration of the limits of our power, lost good will, and loss of treasure and blood. Further, it seems to me nonesense to propose we stay until the sitiuation is made stable. If anything is clear about the situation, it is that the longer we remain, the less stable the situation becomes, and the more inflamed the people of the place become. Nor do the arguements that we owe something to the Iraqis, that having wrecked the place we have a responsibility to fix it, hold much water for me. This is not a mess some child has made in a living room, where such a psoture might be appropriate; this is a deadly serious piece of political and military idiocy that can have no good outcome, being misbegotten at its birth in too many ways to quickly summarize. We must put the best interests of our country first, even should doing so lead to further harm to the Iraqis, and most of our country's people will surely agree with such a formulation, stated in plain terms. Certainly we owe nothing to those who have consented to serve as our puppets in the place: they made their wager and must stand thre fall of the dice like anyone else....

"You don't gotta go home but you can't sleep here!"
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Recalling the old days
When Vietnam fell, I had no problem with offering asylum to our former collaborators, although I had little respect for them. They were creations of US foreign policy, to which I and other Americans paid taxes to maintain. It would not have been fair to these people, corrupt and treacherous as they were, to use them and leave them in the lurch.

The situation in Iraq seems more complicated that Vietnam. The Vietnam War was a misguided attempt to take over colonial rule from the French in at least half the country and in effect cancel or modify by force the Geneva Accords of 1954, to which the US was not a party. The US position was motivated not by a desire to seize any wealth from Vietnam (she didn't have enough to justify the investment in blood and treasure), but long term strategic considerations aimed at the containment of Communism.

While Vietnam was battling to become a sovereign state, Iraq was a sovereign state prior to 2003. While there are strategic considerations to occupying Iraq, the goal is control of resources, not the containment of an enemy. Terrorism is neither a movement nor an ideology. It is a revolting tactic used by criminals who express vaguely political goals. It's not something that can be "contained". If the enemy is militant Islam, which at least is something that can be associated with people like Osama and his followers who mean harm to Americans, then invading Iraq was counter productive; whatever Saddam was, he was not a militant Islamist and no friend to any. At least the cold warriors who blundered their way into Vietnam could say with a straight face that Ho Chi Minh was a Communist. If the neocons are concerned about the spread of militant Islam, it would make more sense to undermine and overthrow the Sauds. However, the Sauds sell the US all the oil they can and price it in dollars, so the neocons don't have a problem with them, even if they are paying protection money to Osama.

In short, the idea that we are containing anything in the Middle East by invading and occupying Iraq is garbage. It is a resource war disguised as national security.

But what about the Iraqis who support the present government? To what extent are they puppets? What about the insurgents? What do they want?

The United Iraqi Alliance, the slate that won the most seats in the January elections, ran on a program of demanding from the US a timetable for the withdrawal of foreign troops and socio-economic planks that also flew in the face of neoconservative goals in Iraq. Only in the final days before the election did the slate amend its program to drop the timetable demand, but it is clear that what they want is real sovereignty, not the counterfeit sovereignty that Iraq was granted a year ago. Not all of these people are neocon puppets and know very well that, if they want to win elections in an Iraq that is even nominally democratic, they can't appear to be anything of the sort. The slate headed by Dr. Allawi, who didn't mind being seen as a neocon puppet, was crushed in those elections.

Many members of the transitional parliament reflect the view of an estimated four out of five Iraqis on the street: they want foreign troops out of Iraq sooner rather than later. It would be wrong to characterize them all as neocon puppets.

The insurgents are not a monolithic group. Zarqawi was in Iraq while Saddam was power, as the neocons like to remind us, but they want us to overlook the fact that he was a thorn in Saddam's side and allied himself with Islamist groups operating in Kurdish regions over which the US had more influence than Saddam. Some unreconstructed Baathists, who used to hunt down and torture Zarqawi's followers, are also part of the insurgency. Meanwhile, we shouldn't discount Moqtaba al-Sadr, the militant Shiite nationalist, who followers have taken up arms against the occupation and could very well do so again. Zarqawi believes Shia is an Islamic heresy and is behind many of the violence against Shiites. Saddam, the head Baathist, murdered Moqtaba's father.

It's hard to make sense out of an "insurgency" made up of at least three distinct groups who have different visions of a post-Saddam Iraq and don't really have a lot to say to each other. Are there really several insurgencies? The only thing these people have in common is that they want foreign troops out of Iraq. They have that in common with some members of parliament, too. The odd man out of this group seems to be Zarqawi, the Jordanian Islamist, who has allied himself with Osama, the Arabian Islamist. Perhaps Zarqawi doesn't really have a problem with foreign forces fighting in Iraq.

In Vietnam, it was a lot easier to keep it straight. The National Liberation Front and their North Vietnamese allies wanted US troops gone; the Saigon clique couldn't have survived very long after US withdrawal, and didn't. The Saigon regime was for the most part made up of Vietnamese quislings who supported the French against the Viet Minh after World War II (Nguyen Van Thieu was a notable exception). The Viet Cong were nationalists.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yes! Excellent!
"As a democrat, I have no desire whatsoever to be an emperor. As an American citizen, I have no desire to take from the Iraqi people what belongs to them. Therefore, I am not asking how large a force would be adequate to complete the mission, since I see the mission as one of colonial theft rather than liberation."

That says it all for me.

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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. In addition to liberation, it had nothing to do with national security
But that should be obvious by now. No WMDs, no ties to al Qaida and the Downing Street documents have laid to rest any doubts that it was no mistake.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Exactly
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. Additional discussion in Editorials
Please click here.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-30-05 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. Shameless bump
:bounce:
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Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-01-05 02:47 AM
Response to Original message
9. Well put Sir, nominated n/t
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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-01-05 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
10. Amen. And...
Give an Iraqi his job back, he won't have to kill/die for his supper.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-01-05 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Excellent pieces of writing here.
I concur. I do have a different slant on the situation.

Bush Regime Iraq Successes

1. Saddam will no longer sell Iraqi oil via the Euro.

2, A military foothold in the ME other than Saudi Arabia.

3, No countries will be able to buy Iraqi oil that the U.S. disapproves of.

4. The Multi-Intl. Oil Corps are reaping great profits, esp. Bush Junta fave ally Saudi Dicktatorshit.

5. If the U.S. can broker a deal with the Sunni part of the Insurgency perhaps the oil will start to flow a lot more than it has so far.
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LightningFlash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-01-05 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Isn't that just the truth..
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-01-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Jobs for Iraqis would help a lot, too
I was shocked to learn last year that foreign workers were being brought to Iraq from Africa and South Asia by transnational firms doing (or pretending to be doing) reconstruction. I thought that while these firms were going to take money out of the country that they would at least put Iraqis to work.

Nope. The left was right about an awful lot about what a disaster the occupation would be, but not in this respect. It turned out to be even worse than imagined.
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-01-05 05:13 AM
Response to Original message
13. Really excellent points
I agree with you absolutely. You write "As a democrat, I have no desire whatsoever to be an emperor. As an American citizen, I have no desire to take from the Iraqi people what belongs to them. " This expresses my own feelings 100%.

We should withdraw now; right away. Of course, most of us here were absolutely opposed to this illegal invasion anyway, and the situation in Iraq confirms our worst fears about the neocon's idiotic reasons for this war.

Of course the Iraqis can see through Bush and his fellow thug's motives, and so can 99% of the rest of the world. Every day we are there, the hole we are in gets deeper and deeper.
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frictionlessO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-01-05 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
14. Oh wow! Please send this off to your local papers JackRabbit!! (even NYT!)
or WaPo, LAT.....

This is such an exceleent piece of craftsmanship, it'd be a shame if only DU'ers ever got to see it.

I am truly and deeply impressed, one of the best posts ever regarding this war and neocon ambition.

Maybe you should write a book, as well.???
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