Resolved: Dean *will* support the eventual nominee. Will his supporters?

[WilliamPitt]

DEAN: I will not run as independent. I will support the nominee. It is essential that George Bush not be re-elected for the future of this country. It is essential for our economy. It's essential, so we can regain the respect we had around the world. And I will under no circumstances run as a third party and independent. I will back the nominee. I hope I am the nominee because I can bring about half those votes that voted for Ralph Nader back into the party. That's how we are going to win. And I think at this point there is no other evidence that any of the other candidates can do that and I think that's why I'm the most likely to beat George Bush.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/04/lkl.00.html

Thanks to DoveTurnedHawk for finding this for me.

So Dean will back the nominee if he doesn't get it.

Will his supporters? Sound off.

Me = ABB.

[StopTheMorans]

1. of course

n/t

[AWD]

2. Yes, I will

...and if the right man wins it, I will campaign as much as I have time for.

[gristy]

3. Of course I will.

Will his supporters? Sound off.

Who else? Seems like a silly question.

[AP]

4. 90% of Nader preferers voted for Gore. Most of the remainder

were in NY and CA where Gore won by a mile.

Green voters are among the most strategic voting demographic there is. If the race is any kind of close I think Democrats aren't going to find as much votes they can gain among those voters as they should be finding among Democrats and Ind's and working class Republicans who voted for Bush in 2000.

[usregimechange]

20. Florida? n/t

[AP]

31. Butterfly ballots. Voter purge. The fact that there were 20 candidates

on some ballots. Not cleaning out the punch card machines for 7 straight elections.

There's way more to gain from solving those problems than there is to gain from attracting "half the Nader vote" -- in Florida. But is Dean going to win Florida?

[noiretextatique]

79. But is any Democrat going to win Florida?

the $64,000.00 question.

[david_vincent]

134. Jeb Bush would rather call out the National Guard

than let a Democrat win Florida fair and square.

[library_max]

135. 97,000 of them voted for Nader in Florida

If 10% of those had voted for Gore instead, it'd be President Gore. It wouldn't have been close enough to steal.

[mandyky]

5. I will BUT the question is

will all the newbies be transferable, which is what the original quote was refering to. Tried and true Dems probably will. The independents and anti-war folks are iffier.

[virtualobserver]

12. I think that they all will vote DEM

even Greens will vote DEM this time.

I think that everyone "misunderestimated" Bush.

[SammyWinstonJack]

6. Goes without saying

[WilliamPitt]

8. Apparently it doesn't

if you saw my other thread.

[mandyky]

14. DUers may vote for ABB, but Dean has a lot

of Republicans and Independents on board.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

37. Dean has a lot of Republicans on board ? PROVE IT!

Is this your proof? Republicans For Dean

[babzilla]

75. the proof is

that unlike some campaigns, the Dean supporters are meeting up at least once a month and have actually met real live republicans, greens, independents and dissapointed dems for Dean.

How many other campaigns have this sort of coalition?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

99. Let's limit this discussion to disappointed Republicans

how many are we talking about? Is their a list or a tally?
BTW I have no doubt the same representation of disaffecteds from across the spectrum are appearing at the other candidates' meet-ups.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

128. Man, Dean's really raking in those GOP defectors

where are they? :shrug:

[KaraokeKarlton]

147. I personally have met at least 5 in my area

who actively volunteer for the campaign and attend Meetups. They are moderate Republicans who can't stand Bush and have changed parties just so they can vote for Dean. They aren't doing it to "help Bush", they are doing it because they can't stand Bush and Dean's fiscal record and stand on guns makes him appealing to them. Moderate Republicans support good social services most of the time, but want fiscal responsibility and gun rights. This is why Dean got a lot of Moderate Republican votes in Vermont election after election. He really has a very broad based appeal.

[meegbear]

7. They'll do a nader ...

They'll blame the DLC, call it "a conspiracy on democracy worse than * did in 2000" and will have a write-in campaign.

[Cha]

27. All you do is write anti Dean posts so I don't take any opinion

you have on Dean as anything to consider.

[Forkboy]

65. hear hear zidzi

[jonnyblitz]

30. LMFAO

:hi:

[Tyler Durden]

9. SAY IT LOUD, LIKE YA PROUD!!!!

Repeat after me:

"I support (fill in your candidate here). HOWEVER, as the defeat of Bush and his administration is so utterly critical to the survival of the Republic as we now know it, if they DO NOT recieve the Democratic Party Nomination, I WILL SUPPORT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY'S NOMINEE 100% TO THE ABSOLUTE BEST OF MY ABILITY, WITHOUT RESERVATION (at least in the public arena: in PRIVATE I reserve the right to whine all I want."

Sign here.

[damnraddem]

107. Not Leiberman.

That would be more soul-crushing than Dubya -- a Bush-lite Dem prez.

[FlashHarry]

10. Yep.

There's no way I would willfully commit an action that could possibly help GWB retain the presidency. No way.

[clar]

11. Undoubtedly

and without hesitation. BTW, When the LA weekly piece came out, it caused a stir over at Kos, where it was debunked. Someone explained that it's the active support that Dean was referring to, more than whether or not his supporters would vote for another person.

[Larkspur]

13. My vote goes with the Dem nominee, but my enthusiasm and cash

have to be earned by the non-Dean Dem nominee. Winning the Dem nomination does not qualify for my time and cash. If the Dem nominee shuns Dean or treats him shabbily, then they are treating Dean's supporters with contempt and the Dem nominee would lose my volunteer time and cash. They'd still get my vote, but I won't help them get other votes.

[Tyler Durden]

21. I don't care if the Nominee publically URINATES...

...on my candidate (if defeated.)

The utter and complete removal from power of the Bush Cabal is so important, that no effort is too small or for me.

[Larkspur]

47. We only have you're word on that and we don't know how good you

are at keeping that word.

[CMT]

15. Of course most of us will.

How about asking Kerry, Gephardt, Lieberman, Graham, Sharpton, Kucinich, Braun, Clark, and Edwards supporters to take a similar pledge?

[WilliamPitt]

22. To the best of my knowledge

None of them coughed up a quote to question their stance on this issue.

[CMT]

25. I frankly don't think that Dean did either

but you are also asking Dean supporters to take some kind of pledge and I think most of us on this board have made clear numerous times our committment to defeat George W. Bush. Will every Dean supporter support the eventual dem nominee? I doubt it, but by the same token I don't think every supporter of the other candidates will either.

[VelmaD]

32. I must have missed the part...

where he insisted you make a pledge and sign it in blood. *scrolls back up to read thread again*.

DV

[LizW]

73. Have any of them been asked?

Isn't it interesting that this interview has come up twice now while Dean's campaign is still rolling strongly along raising money hand over fist and gaining supporters by the hundreds? And no one is asking the candidates polling in single digits and their supporters to affirm their Democratic Party loyalty 4 months before the first caucus?

I swear, only Democrats could look at an amazing, grassroots, people-powered and financed campaign whose prime directive is getting the Disaster from Texas out of the White House and see something threatening and scary.

Can we have our obligatory group hug and get on to the issues of the primary campaign?;)

[WillyBrandt]

149. As a Clark Supporter

I will give my vote, time, and money to any of the above. My least favorites are Kucinich and Sharpton: they would get my full support, too. Not just a grudging vote.

[usregimechange]

16. I will n/t

[matcom]

17. ABB = ABL for me

other than that, THIS 'Deanie' is in

[mandyky]

18. How many candidates will draw 10,000 supporters in

Seattle or NY?

[Renew Deal]

116. Just wait.

And 10,000 in Seattle was an addmited over statement.

[displacedvermoter]

19. Will Pitt, are you less freaked out now?

I'm curious cause you have been one of the voices of sanity in regards to giving fair treatment to all the Dems in the race. As a still undecided (Dean, Kerry, Graham and Clark in pretty much that order) I've appreciated the postings that offer information and don't trash individual candidates.

I just spoke to a local (Beacon, NY) Dean organizer who is putting together a meet-up next week, and I asked her about your concerns. Her take -- and it is only her take -- is that the Dean folks she's dealt with are in a full ABB mode, and that even the most liberal Deanites around here would likely support whomever the party nominates.

Again, one place, one person's opinions. The meet-up is next Wednesday, I plan on going, and I am curious myself about the question.

[WilliamPitt]

24. Less freaked out about Dean? 100% yes.

Less freaked out about his supporters? On the fence. Hence, this thread.

[jonnyblitz]

39. maybe this should be a topic at Dean meetups everywhere.

just a thought.

[DinahMoeHum]

45. I plan to bring it up at the next Dean Meetup. . .

Before the Meetup, though, there are some "house parties" and interconference calls going on. If I go to one, I'm gonna bring the matter up.

:kick:

[jonnyblitz]

50. I will also suggest this to my sister who is going to a house party

Monday night here in CT.

[Upfront]

23. Yes

With out question. I hope it is Dean.;-)

[jonnyblitz]

26. I don't support anybody at this time but a HELL YEAH from me anyway.

and my sister who is active in Dean stuff here in CT will too. I know this for a fact even thought she isnt here to speak for herself.

[Ellen Forradalom]

28. You bet your donkey I will.

I'm not stupid.

[Padraig18]

29. ABB!

I'm on board for WHOEVER is our nominee! :thumbsup:

[PAMod]

33. As long as Dean's theoretical "demise" doesn't occur...

or APPEAR to have occurred at the hand of the DNC/DLC or by some deal between "Washington Insider" candidates, Dean's supporters will fall in line. If we lose these folks now, people, it may be a loooonnnnggg time before we see the inside of the White House again.

Personally, I will, without a doubt, vote Democratic in 2004, because it is very important that we retire Dumbya.

[Andy_Stephenson]

34. Will you abide by the pledge you made to me Will?

If so I will abide by mine!

[WilliamPitt]

42. Yup

[Andy_Stephenson]

145. Then Yes I will

n/t

[demnan]

35. ABB here

[DinahMoeHum]

36. I will. Anybody But Bush.

n/t

:kick::kick::kick:

[indigo32]

38. Absolutely

eom

[einsteins stein]

40. I have clearly said I am for "Anyone But Bush" - even Liebermen

and I despise Joe Liebermen.

But I have to mouth off here a little, because you really made me angry, damn it Will! I didn't appreciate your inflamatory post, bringing up an issue that had already been discussed and resolved.

You have been here for a long time, you are a professional at research, and there are people here who hang on your every word. What you did with that post was pretty lame.

This follow up helps, but even this is a subtle attack on Dean's campaign. "Yes, Dean is ok, but what about his supporters?"

Not even an "I'm sorry, I was wrong to shout out about Dean, without doing some research first..."

Will, you're too much an icon at DU to pull his kind of crap and too much a professional to make an excuse for why you let it happen.

This just messed up my whole fucking day, and my comfort level at DU just sunk to its lowest point. Yeah, I'm a newbie, so who cares, right? Not like you Will, who's been here forever, and still makes a newbie style mistake.

Thats what I get for putting DU on a pedestal. Like everything else, reality comes along and knocks the pedestal down.

[mkregel]

41. OF FREAKIN COURSE

Too much is at stake here...too much up for grabs. Shit the very foundation of our Democracy on the line here.

I support Dean, but if Clark wins fuck yeah will I support him (actually , this primary is the first in my lifetime when we actually had several good canidates to choose from) If Kerry wins, of course. If...well I'm not going to go through the list but all the front runners are FINE BY ME!!!!

ANYONE BUT BUSH

ANYONE BUT BUSH

[CWebster]

43. That depends

on how it all unfolds and whether it remains a party I want to be part of. RickM brought up a relevant point on another thread - by the very nature of supporting what one candidate represents it may make it impossible to support another candidate.

This is last call for the party as far as I am concerned. The party is at a crossroads and if it continues in its present course and forcefeeds us pre-selected candidates that we would never vote for, but are expected to support to vote against, then we are little more than hostages.

Third party here I come and I work like hell with all the other former Democrats to build a new movement up from the ground, because there's nothing left to lose. What would be the point to continue the same patern again?

This is just as much about the soul of the Democratic party as it is about beating Bush.

[boxster]

44. Your question is kind of loaded...

and I don't expect you'll get a lot of honest answers from those who will NOT support another nominee.

I'm personally undecided - Clark, Dean, Kerry, in that order as of the moment - but I'm a little surprised at the amount of animosity that some Dean supporters have shown towards Clark. It's very close to the level of hatred and some of the comments remind me of arguments you'd hear from the right-wing freaks! }(

Seriously though, based on their comments, I'd say there are quite a few regular posters that won't vote for Clark if he's nominated.

In my mind, the bottom line is that Bush has to go. Any of the likely Dem nominees is infinitely better than another 4 years for Bush.

[einsteins stein]

60. That's a two way street

look at some pro-Clark posters and they have NOTHING to say unless it is outrageously anti-Dean, or whining about how Clark gets treated by Dean supporters.

Posts like Will's just feed the fire, IMO, and I'm disappointed by the whole shit-stain of a topic.

maybe I need to take a daylong break, check in tomorrow, after I cool down

peace people...

Stein

[boxster]

67. Frankly, I hadn't really seen quite as much of that...

though it certainly does exist. Maybe the Dean supporters are just a little more vocal. :o

I don't necessarily think that Will's question is a bad one, based on the quote he provided in the other post. I realize that it had previously been essentially debunked, but it's still somewhat of a gaffe that required a little clarification.

I guess the bottom line is that a good understanding of Dean as a candidate and what he stands for should lead one to the conclusion that he wants Bush out as much as anyone, so he'd obviously put his support behind the eventual nominee assuming he doesn't win.

[DoctorMyEyes]

46. Anybody but Bush!

(or Lieberman....?)


Seriously - Yes, Yes, and Yes!

Though I do understand what Howard Dean was saying about some of his supporters. I didn't read it as a threat. I read it as someone being a little more candid than was probably prudent.

Just like Clark - Dean has supporters from all over the spectrum, and it would be difficult to herd them one way or the other if their guy doesn't get the nomination.

Is is stupid? Absolutely!
Is it selfish and suicidal? Abso-fucking-lutely

Doesn't mean it's not true, though....

[Armstead]

48. ABB -- But that's still a long way off.

I'm not a rabid Dean supporter, and ultimately will support ABB. However.....

In addition to defeating Bush, the goal of the upcoming election should be to open the windows on the stale, smelly mess that conventional politics has become. Including -- perhaps especially -- Democratic politics.

Dean has brought something new to the table -- People Power. He's raised a shitload of money without sucking the Corporate Tit to do it. And his supporters are responding to that.

If the Democratic Centrist Establishment and the Big Money Crowd buy the nomination and put in another Non-Issue Candidate, a lot of Dean supporters are going to be very disappointed. And their enthusiasm will NOT be transferrable. Most of them will still probably cast their votes for ABB, but their passion and resources will vaporize if that happens.

They will not be enthusiastic supporters of the Democratic Nominee if they are blown off by the Establishment in favor of an Insurance Puppet like Joe Lieberman, or a Clinton Stalking Horse or a Business-as-Usual Hack, especially if that nominee spouts off the usual meaningless Centrist Platitudes.

That's just reality, like it or not.

[tnlefty]

49. yes and maybe, maybe not

I will and most of the people in my local group probably would but we're registered democrats for the most part. Others within the local group I don't know about. They understand that they don't want 4 more years of Smirk* but there a few of the candidates, and I won't mention which ones, I think would drive them to look for a third way or a protest vote. Hopefully if Dean isn't the nominee they will change their minds, but a few of them are pretty clear with their intentions.

[Emboldened Chimp]

51. Definitely

Though if it's Lieberman, I might have to take my vote elsewhere. I'm in a safe state anyway (CA).

[caledesi]

52. ABB

[Jennellist]

53. Yep, unless it's Hillary

Then I'd have to think twice...or maybe I'd hold my nose and do it. Hard to forgive the Clintons for trying to derail Dean like they are.

[eyesroll]

54. I will vote for a can of diet cola in the general election, if its

the most likely to beat *.

Period.

Fact of the matter is, in many respects, this election (for me, anyway) has gone way beyond getting a candidate I like in power. Heck, even way beyond getting a candidate I don't dislike in power. It's about getting * out of power. While I'd much rather be able to cast a vote in the general election for someone I whole-heartedly support, I'll still do it with pride (and with noseplugs) for just about anyone, as long as that's the best way to get * out.

[Hawkeye-X]

55. I pledge my support to Dean

and if Dean does not win the nomination, then I will follow the ABB pledge that I made in 12/12/2000.

I've wanted that shithead out of the White House since that fateful day. I envisioned that he would be a disaster to the American people and the world, and I was proven right again, and again.

Hawkeye-X

[Orangepeel]

56. I will. But I don't speak for others (and neither can Dean)

I will, of course. But then again, I'm a party hack. Not all Dean supporters support the Democratic party.

I'll use my county as an example. We have about 100 regular meetup attendees. There are greens, libertarians, republicans, many "independents" and a whole lot of people who never got involved in the political process before because they just didn't care. Of the 100, there are many 6 of us who are actively involved in the local party.

These people got involved with the campaign because of Dean himself. Some are anti-bush, but some are not. I think that almost all of them will *vote* for the nominee if Dean asks them to and if the local Dean organizers encourage them to. But there's no way that they will work their butts off for another candidate the way they will for Dean. They won't spend their own money to make flyers. They probably won't go door to door. The hope and enthusiasm they feel with Dean just won't be there for another candidate.

[sangh0]

57. Will Dean ask HIS SUPPORTERS to support the nominee?

I think it's GREAT that Dean will support the nominee, even if it's not him, but my question is "Will Dean ask HIS SUPPORTERS to vote for the nominee, if the nominee is not Dean?"

[Classical_Liberal]

61. I believe so

I doubt he'll kick them in the butt though since this is never a good technique of winning over independents. Ask the DLC, if you don't believe me.

I also believe Dean's supporters are more likely to vote dem if he doesn't win than Liebermans are even if he does win, primarily because he has differentiated himself on how much he supports Bush. People who like Bush support Lieberman.

[FubarFly]

88. Will any candidate?

Got links?

[newsguyatl]

58. i'll

vote for anyone who gets the nod so long as he/she didn't vote for the war and/orwasn't FOR the war...


already, that excludes 5 running, not counting graham, who only voted no because the resolution wasn't strong enough. so i won't vote for him either.

[w13rd0]

59. Wasn't your first bullshit post...

...on this topic enough for you? Why start another thread? I'll VOTE Anyone But Bush, but you SHOULD be asking THIS question.

Will another candidate, were they to win the nomination, ENGAGE and EMBRACE Dean (or insert any candidate's name) supporters in order to get them to not only cast their vote, but volunteer their time and money?

[noiretextatique]

74. apparently, this is the "loyalty oath" thread

for dean supporters ONLY :eyes:

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[w13rd0]

106. No Will...

...kma.

I'm just going to blow you off assuming that you're just having a bad, bitchy day. Many won't. Think before you post.

And yes, I'll say it again, "bullshit thread". I give props to every one of the candidates, even those that aren't my faves, for what they bring to the table. My question was MORE than valid, and I asked it in the last thread as well. I guess you must have missed it amongst all the other responses to your questions, most of which you apparently COMPLETELY ignored.

-->Will another candidate, were they to win the nomination, ENGAGE and EMBRACE (insert candidate's name) supporters in order to get them to not only cast their vote, but volunteer their time and money?<--

This question could easily be concerning the supporters of Clark and Kucinich as well, since each of these candidates (Clark, Dean, Kucinich) is bringing supporters into the political process that might otherwise be disenfranchised, disenchanted, disinterested, independent, Green or Republican...

Because didn't you write something not so long ago about how it was going to take our time and money to win in 2004, not just our votes? I suggest you go sleep it off and return when your dander isn't so...easily fluffed...

[NNN0LHI]

62. Jesus. I went looking for this a few days ago and Googled myself blind

No shit. I even remember posting the link to this transcript with exerpts to DU1 a while back. But every time I searched using every combination of key words that I could think of all I got back was Dean and Clark web sites. And now the search function on DU1 is down also so no luck there either. What a job DTH. You da man. And if you don't mind my asking. How the hell did you find it?

Don

[bushisanidiot]

63. Dean 1st, ABB 2nd

Bush is going down!

[babzilla]

64. I will vote Dem

Just as I always do, but I probably won't donate as much time or money as I have to another candidate, no one else inspires me to dig as deep.

I also don't know how the Republican woman I met who has joined the Dean campaign will vote.

[Malikshah]

66. As for meYes--now on to the other candidates and their supporters...

What's sauce for the goose...

My point is that yes, many of Dean's supporters are new to the issues--but guess what--so are 99.9 % of the American public--
I would think that the other candidates and their supporters would be aware of this. The DU-oasis is just that in terms of the vaste wasteland that is US apathy and disdain with regard to politics.

Dean's supporters might go back to the wasteland--but in the end, I think the vast majority will stick it out to the bitter end.

One hopes all the candidates' supporters will follow suit.

With the amount of vitriol exhibited against candidates-we mustn't hold one up to a "higher standard" than others.

The problem w/ these debates/discussions is that only one is judged--the others tend to get off scott free.

[LeftCoast]

68. Absolutely!

I like Dean the bestest, but the rest of the crowd (even the L-man) is light-years better than the alternative.

[Eloriel]

69. Only if they earn it

Price of admission for Kerry: apologize for the Iraq war vote. (Advice: See Congressman Murtha)

Price of admission for Clark: Not quite sure yet, but it will likely involve proving he was an innocent employee of Jackson Stephens and has nothing to do with him any more (also making public the financing for the various Draft Clark efforts), getting the Clintons and other DLCers completely out of his race, coming clean (ie., explaining) about his various military misadventures, etc. And oh yeah, actually HAVING some policies might be good too. Some of his own, not adapted or borrowed from Dean.

Eloriel

[bicentennial_baby]

71. Explain please

"(also making public the financing for the various Draft Clark efforts)"

Why is that Wesley's responsibility?

[gully]

70. YUP!

:D

[NicoleM]

72. I'm ABB, too, but

it seems to me that your problems with Dean supporters not backing ABB would be resolved by NOMINATING DEAN. Then the issue becomes moot, no?

Personally, I would expect a rousing speech at the convention, wherein Dean lays out the case for getting rid of GWB and exhorts everybody to take America back by electing Clark or Kerry.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

76. Hypocracy kick

:kick:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=299591


Why not ask the same question of all supporters? Or is it just Dean supporters who have to take the test of allegiance?

Things I wonder about.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NicoleM]

92. spelling flames are dangerous

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=hypocrisy">hypocrisy

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

97. And they're the last resort when reason has failed.

[noiretextatique]

138. LMAO, NicoleM

this is the best exchange in this entire thread...thanks :7

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

93. I'm not claiming intelligence.

Only hypocricy.

[FubarFly]

77. I will vote ABB no matter what.

Support is a different story. If any candidate wants my time and money, they'll have to earn it. Since I am firmly entrenched in the Dean camp, I won't even consider this option until I am reasonably certain that Dean will fail.

[ClintonTyree]

78. What a ridiculous question.................

please Will, give us more credit than that.

[bicentennial_baby]

80. Tell that

to the person on Will's other thread that said they will support no one other than Dean, end of story.

[WilliamPitt]

85. Did you see my other thread?

Go read it and tell me I'm being ridiculous.

[w4rma]

81. *I* will support the nominee. This is my consistant position.

I will try (and have been trying) to get as many people as possible to support Democratic winners of all primaries.

[Dr Fate]

82. I bet he will urge all DEMS to do so...

..and 99%of true-blue DEMS will listen to this great candidate/man.

The Greens and the "benevolent gadflys" and those who want to "teach centrists a lesson"- well, we all know how they behave- I can only account for the DEMS, who will listen to Howard and support the DEM candidate.

[Mairead]

83. I don't see where that answers the original question

If he's not the nominee, will he give 'the speech'? Or does his 'I will support the nominee' mean he will personally support the nominee, but not go so far as to give the speech?

I don't think it's clear at all. Why do you, Will?

[FubarFly]

91. What is Dennis's view on this? n/t

[Mairead]

137. I presume he'll give the speech

He's never said anything that I know of that would lead me to believe he has or would have even the slightest reservation about the idea. So I'm confident that he'd say something on the order of 'you are all wonderful people and your support made the whole trip worthwhile. And now I hope you'll do one thing more for me: give your whole, enthusiastic support to X, because that is what I am going to do'.

I personally would ignore such a request and write in Dennis's name anyway, but I feel totally confident that he would make the request.

And that brings us back to Dean: what makes anyone think that his saying that he would support X is the same thing as saying that he would ask his followers to support X? It's a totally serious question, because he certainly seemed to be drawing a distinction in the passage that's got everyone so hot.

[uhhuh]

144. Hmm....

Why do you think that your confidence in Kucinich is any more valid than a Dean supporter's confidence that Dean will do the same?

I like that you have basically proved Dean's point via your unwavering Kucinich support by declaring that you will vote for Kucinich regarless of whether or not he supports the eventual nominee.
What you seem to be saying is that you will ignore Kucinich's request, assuming he makes it, and blindly vote for him anyway. How is that different from what a Dean supporter might do, and how does it then matter whether or not either of them get up and make a statement about it? Why would a statement made make any difference if a candidate's supporters are going to do what they want anyway?

I think ALL the candidates, when a nominee is chosen, will make the speech. You are living proof that, for some, it will not matter. That was the point of the Dean statement. How can you not see this?

[Mairead]

155. The issue is not what Dean's supporters would do in response

but whether Dean would even ask them to. He stated very clearly that he could not ask them to (and that's why comparing him to Kucinich is a red herring).

So: he says he will support the eventual candidate, but he also said earlier that he "couldn't" ask his followers to do so. What's the deal?

[silverweb]

84. Yes, of course.

But I sure do hope Dean is the nominee!! :)

Btw, Will, I sent your latest great piece -- "Situation Excellent, I Am Attacking" -- to everyone I know and have received some great feedback. An excellent job of hitting the nail right on the head, as usual! :thumbsup:

[GumboYaYa]

89. You need to got to a Dean Meetup

and not rely on DU as your gauge for the attitude of Dean supporters. DU has become a bastion of negativity. Regardless of your candidate, there are an inordinate number of myopic supporters and vicious detractors that post here. DU is not a representative sample.

From someone who attends meetups regularly and is actively working in the campaign, the vast number of Dean supporters will support any Dem that gets nominated. This notion that we will mindlessly sacrifice the good of the country for our candidate's ego is nonsense. However, if your sole exposure to Dean supporters is DU, your fear is not unwarranted.

I encourage you to attend a Dean Meetup and visit with Dean's supporters in the real world. You will feel much better.

I stand by my continued support of Chim-Chim the stock picking monkey if he is our nominee to run against Bush, but I would prefer Dean, Kerry, Clark.....

[Duder]

90. With all due respect...

Somewhere I read that republicans wanted to sow the seeds of division, doubt and pessimism upon the Democratic candidates. So by engaging in a hypothetical of what if your candidate can't/won't be the nominee, when he's one of the front runners at this time, it seems kind of like watering those seeds of negativity, imo.

So at the moment, excuse my optimism, but Howard Dean will win the nomination and will beat Bush. Perhaps your question might be more appropriate to the supporters of the other candidates but your premature ejaculation of defeatism is unacceptable to this Dean supporter. When the nomination of Howard Dean has been confirmed, I look forward to yours and others support of the Democratic candidate that will replace this current misadministration.

[ibegurpard]

94. I'll vote for whoever the nominee is.

That's all I'm going to promise.

[ibegurpard]

95. Dupe

Posted twice...please remove

[Malikshah]

96. DO WE NEED THREADS ON OTHER CANDIDATES

As no one responded to my earlier post--

And it has been brought up here---

Does someone have the balls/gall/cajones to turn the GD forum into a free-for-all?

This is what it has turned into for Dean folks.

Please sign in--state your name, political affiliation, and swear to vote for the Dem candidate whosever they may turn out to be.

Yes, yes, yes-- supporters will say--I'll take my toys home if Dean doesn't win-- and this alone is proof positive of the need for yet another thread on this.

Sorry--that logic is just too weak.

So--I ask again. When is the next DU Loyalty Oath for Candidate Supporters Thread going to begin.

Or is it just for Dean?


(Will some of you just breath, unclench, and think about these matters before you start going on and on and on. Do you realize that this is what pisses Dean supporters off? Being separated and treated differently--held to some impossible standard while others can feel free to bash with abandon. Or, is it that you just like to push folks buttons? If it's the latter--get a life. We've more important things to deal with in this country)

[WilliamPitt]

105. Being separated and treated differently

goes with the territory when you hold yourselves as separate and different, as part of a "new" and "revolutionary" campaign that "doesn't follow the old rules."

Cope.

[Malikshah]

109. Back at ya Mr. Pitt :)

Sorry-- I don't agree that it warrants being treated like a bunch of recalcitrant children who need to be reminded of how politics works.

Sorry-- that comes across as arrogant, condescending (fill-in-the-blank)

*That* is the reason why folks may just skip the election--not because Dean isn't the nominee--but they are tired of the same old politics, the same old experts telling them what they should do because it's good for them.

That is the point I am trying to drill in to folks heads here--

I'm coping just fine, thanks all the same. I do feel, though, that in a fit of political expert pique all the folks questioning the loyalty, quality, intelligence, maturity, etc. of Dean supporter will just be digging the grave for any Democratic nominee that comes along. In otherwords--all the pundits and "wise men and women" are just creating a self-fulfilling prophecy by holding different candidates/supporters to different standards.

All the best in our crusade. MS

[indigo32]

123. I couldn't agree more

I'm not gonna let the insults and condescension scare me away but I can't speak for the others in his campaign.

"questioning the loyalty, quality, intelligence, maturity, etc. of Dean supporter "
I've heard all of it and more.

[WilliamPitt]

132. Victimhood is not becoming

I did not question your quality, intelligence or maturity. Your loyalty is clear. If you inferred these things, that is your bias and not based on any words of mine.

[Malikshah]

141. Victimhood?

As the words were mine to begin with...

The old victimhood attack now. This thread is looking more like the I-P and Freeper forums.

The fact that Dean's supporters for the most part are being pilloried, left, right and center (pun most definitely intended) is to be expected. That is what debate is about.

However- to hold one group to a different standard--to constantly harp against a group--to judge them prior to the actions--to chide them and warn them--

Sorry--that's not debating the issues. That's speaking at someone as opposed to with someone. It's lecturing, it's pedantic and it turns people off of the whole process.

No victims here. Just exasperated folks who want to support who they want to support (Dean, Clark, Kerry, otherwise)

If folks cannot see how the intial post embodied the standard "tut-tut-tutting" of the Beltway insider mentality--then I ask again that people sit back, relax--breathe-- inhale and exhale --- and look at the larger picture of what's been happening lately on these boards.

[Duder]

112. We cope but...

...we can still be irritated by ignorance and innuendos.

Dean has a history of recruiting Democrats to the party whereas Kerry seems to be more self absorbed in his own career. Your question seems more applicable to the "old schoolers".

[madfloridian]

113. I have never seen you be so insulting to people, Will.

I am surprised. I think that "hold yourselves as separate and different" is quite true. I have always thought of myself as an individual.

I really do not think you realize just how many folks you are putting down.

There are several ways of doing this, out and out insults, or intellectual condescension, where some are not quite sure how to respond. It is "gotcha" thing.

See, no matter what I put, you can just post something to make me look bad.

[WilliamPitt]

131. Look bad?

I'm responding to people. I am frankly at a loss over what you want from me. If it's perfection, don't hold your breath.

P.S. I don't expect that from others, either.

P.P.S If this post makes you look bad, I apologize.

[madfloridian]

140. What do I want from you? Nothing.

I just don't see what you gain by being patronizing toward us.

[WilliamPitt]

150. Well

I apparently have some atavastic need to be patronizing...

...or you are seeing 'patronizing' where none is there.

Either way, I apologize. Again.

Honestly, madfloridian, I have decided to never, ever, ever, ever mention Dean's name again on this forum. Ever. Bad things happen.

And that's not my fault.

[madfloridian]

151. It is your fault for continuing the similar threads.

We see him, just as we do the other candidates, warts and all. My husband and I, and our growing group here of Greens, Republicans, and Democrats, have no illusions that he is perfect.

We like the fact that we are once again having a voice. I firmly feel that the entrance of certain candidates is to take away that voice from the "grassroots" for want of a better word.

That makes us more determined to have a say in our party once again. Since we are not especially to the left, that should speak for itself.

Many of those who support Dean do so for that reason. We have all walks of life in this group, and we all want the power back to make decisions. Al From and buddy Reed have taken that away.

It is not wearing rose-colored glasses, it is just knowing that the party WILL indeed have to contend with us.

As to whether we will vote for other candidates, most likely we would for most of them. For two we would not. This being America, I should not have to pledge loyalty if my party chooses someone inappropriate.

[WilliamPitt]

153. My fault for asking a question

or your fault for being hyper-sensitive?

Sorry if that made you feel bad. You have your issues, I have mine. Removing Bush at all costs is mine.

[madfloridian]

154. Not so sensitive, just asking to not be talked to in a patronizing way.

That is what I meant. There is a difference. Also I may change my mind about the other two at a later date. Or maybe one of them. I should not have to say.

The hyper-sensitive here are eaten alive, Will.

[GumboYaYa]

114. "Separate"

Where are you getting this. Dean consistently says that the Bush adminsitration divides people and it is time for us to unite to oust Bush.

As far as I'm concerned, if you cannot make a positive contribution to getting rid of Bush you are helping the Repugs. Instead of wasting time tearing each other down, go do something that helps your candidate. If he/she wins great. If he/she loses, take the lump and buck up for the winner. Questioning the motives of Dean supporters is divisive BS that hurts our party.

[artr2]

98. This Dean supporter will not abandon the party

and I will support the nominee of MY party

[goobergunch]

100. Yes. See my sig (n/t, except for the sig line)

[sleipnir]

101. NO

I for one, as a Dean supporter, will not support certain candidates, no matter what that means. I will NOT vote for Lieberman, Kerry, or Gephart (the only others with a chance.) Sorry, but the Iraq vote was the clincher for me. They have kow-towed to Bush for too long on many issues and I don't trust them at all. I have yet to decide if Clark gets the nod, but time will tell.

If Dean is not nominated, I will vote for a third party and let the chips fall where they may. If * is re-selected, I'm moving out of the country. No joke...

[VelmaD]

103. If you don't vote for the Dem nominee...

and chimpy wins then you have no one to blame BUT YOURSELF!

End of rant.

[w13rd0]

110. No, actually...

...there will still likely be a way to blame (choose one or more):

DLC
Greens
Ralph Nader
Clinton
Gore
The "left-wing whackos"
(a brand new edition) Deaniac kool-aid drinkers
the Arabs
the Jews
the minority vote
the voting machines
the new fall season of my favorite show
Bush
Rove
the media
Fox News
Richard Melon Scaife
Scientologists
RW religious extremists
my car mechanic
...

I'm sure you get the point...

THERE WILL BE NO EXCUSE, NONE WHATSOEVER, FOR THAT SON OF A BITCH REMAINING IN OFFICE UNTIL MY SON IS OF DRAFT AGE!!!

[Room101]

102. I will support the nominee, of course !!!

Bush can not get re-elected, This is an INDY talking.

[damnraddem]

104. Howard Dean has nothing to do with it.

I will support any Dem candidate other than Leiberman -- LIEberman, that is. That has been my position all along.

[dragonlady]

108. Absolutely

Disappointed, but determined to get rid of the current regime. As my 94-year-old neighbor says, "Bush him out!"

[HFishbine]

111. Maybe

Nominate someone who stood with Bush on issues I care about and the answer is no.

[ulysses]

115. um...

is this not headed the direction of the "Dean supporters are politically naive" thread from a little while ago?

[Malikshah]

117. Um...2

"headed"-- friend--it's past it and now looking at in the rear-view mirror. :-)

[ulysses]

119. I didn't read the whole thing

:)

[WilliamPitt]

118. Nope

and P.S. I apologized for that quite publicly.

[ulysses]

125. I know.

Your tone here just sounded to me like the same one. Maybe not.

Fact is that Dean has attracted a lot of people, old hands and newbies alike, who might *not* otherwise vote Dem. Of course, he's also attracted a lot of people who *will* vote Dem regardless. Finally, although he's attracted a lot of people who might not otherwise vote Dem, he hasn't attracted all of them. You're asking an oversimplified question.

[WilliamPitt]

130. Well, let's follow the stages here

1. I read a Dean quote that scared the shit out of me;

2. I posted a thread asking for Dean folks to explain it to me, and to assuage my truly genuine fears;

3. Many Dean folks kindly did so...although my final explanation came from a Clark supporter. Yay bipartisanship! :) ;

4. In that thread, however, a lot of people said, "Dean was talking about what his supporters may or may not do; he has no control over them.";

5. Several others in that thread pointedly said that if Dean is not the nominee, they would have a lot of trouble supporting another candidate in the General;

6. This thread happened.

[ulysses]

139. welcome to my point.

I suspect that candidates who either are at the ends of the visible Dem spectrum (Kucinich, Lieberman) or are often perceived to be (Dean, Clark) have at least some supporters who, if their candidate isn't nominated, either won't vote or won't vote Dem. Will/would some Kucinich folks go Green, or some Lieberman folks go Republican? I have no doubt - same goes for Dean and, quite possibly, some supporters of other candidates. You asked a question of "Dean supporters", which is not a monolithic group. Christ, just on DU it includes both jiacinto and IndianaGreen. You're asking what they'll do? How would anyone know?

I think that's what Dean meant in the quote that made you so scared and then so angry. My apologies for the question, but why not ask it of the supporters of other candidates?

[denverbill]

120. Most likely.

I definitely have my preferences though. Lieberman ain't at the top of my list.

[MGKrebs]

121. Of course. n/t

[stickdog]

122. Of course. But I'm not working my ass off in any big money funded,

top down campaign for the next appointed stooge the status quo.

Got that?

[proud patriot]

124. Me=ABB n/t

[JohnKleeb]

126. well if I could vote and I am a Kucinich supporter mind you

I would vote for the dem.

[trogdor]

127. implicitly.

The goal is to beat George Bush, not the Dem. nominee-apparent.

[Syn_Dem]

129. If I could vote

ABB here all the way

[calimary]

133. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Will,

I've posted again and again and again, in threads for
a) Kerry
b) Clark
c) Kucinich
d) AND Dean
PLUS a lot of other assorted threads that:

I will vote for the nominee, regardless who (or whom) it turns out to be. And yes, that means even Lieberman if we have to. I've even stated flat out that I'll hold my nose and vote for him if he's our standard bearer. ANYBODY but bush.

But, for now, while I can choose, I choose Howard Dean.

Enough already!

Now will you take our word for it? At least mine?

[shanti]

136. of course. are there any other options??

*thinking*




nah, don't think so!

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

142. I will.

I'm a hardcore Dean supporter, but I'll vote Dem no matter what, even if it's (chokes back urge to vomit) Lieberman.

I caught all kinds of shit last election from my lefty friends because I supported Gore instead of Nader. I tried to explain to them that YES there WAS a difference between Bush and Gore and that they MUST NOT split the vote. The rest is history. So as far as I'm concerned it's ABB all the way.

[Cha]

143. Turns out you were Right On!

:toast:

[KaraokeKarlton]

146. Most of the people who post here will

But I suspect there are many who might lose interest if Dean doesn't win the nomination. I'm certain these people will move heaven and earth to get to the polls to vote for Dean. There will be a record turnout for the primaries because of all the new voters Dean has energized. If Dean is on any ballot his supporters are allowed to vote on, they will be there for him. However, I honestly believe that a lot of those people will lose the energy they have now if Dean doesn't win the nomination. These new voters are why I truly believe that it would be impossible for Bush to beat Dean. With their votes, all it will take is for the Democrats who always vote to vote for Dean and it's a damn guarantee to get rid of Bush.

(editted spelling error)

[farmbo]

148. Abso-fuc*in'-lutely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Never even entered my mind to bolt, and that's true of the other volunteers I'm working with, even the newbies.

Give yourself 10 lashes for even conceiving of this thread!

:spank:

Dems are my family... and blood's thicker than water.

[IndianaGreen]

152. What if the nominee is a prowar candidate

and supports the occupation and pillaging of Iraq?

I know what my answer is, how about you?

[NNN0LHI]

156. Why don't you share your answer with us IG? What would you do? n/t