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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 01:23 AM
Original message
"This fact about American society needs to be told " -Arab news
CAIR Offering Free Qur’an Copies to Americans
Barbara Ferguson, Arab News

WASHINGTON, 4 June 2005 — Following accusations of mistreatment of the Qur’an in the Guantanamo prison in Cuba, and recognition of widespread ignorance about Islam’s holy book by many Americans; CAIR, the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations, has responded by offering free Qur’ans.

“Calls are coming into our headquarters at the rate of three-to-five calls-per-minute since publication about the campaign in USA Today and the Wall Street Journal newspapers,” said Nihad Awad, executive director of CAIR.

CAIR’s telephone message mailbox becomes completely filled “at least once an hour, which reflects a desire by ordinary Americans to better understand Islam and Muslims,” Awad said, adding that many are calling to congratulate them on their initiative.

“This fact about American society needs to be told in the Muslim world. People here respect the Qur’an and would like to learn about it, and the acts of a few should not obscure the reality of the general Americans society — which is good, tolerant and accepting of others,” he said.

More here:
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=64838&d=4&m=6&y=2005
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. I ordered mine online
Should get it soon and see what Islam is about. Can't wait either. Been meaning to read it since 9-11 but got caught up in computer training.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Me too
Abraham's seed resulted in the births of both Jesus and Mohamed. They are of the same family. Just a different recant of family history between the Bible and the Quran.
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
20. Ordered mine
Please notice that there is a link on the CAIR website for contributions. This seems like a good cause, may as well help them out. Only through a better understanding of each other can we ever hope to achieve a peaceful coexistence.
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
28. It doesn't read quite like the Bible.
There's a lot of repetition and no actual narrative thrust. It seems like more of a poem. I was surprised at how many Biblical characters and events are mentioned. I read a lot of it, but not all - very interesting to find out what people are talking about!
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. It is in fact poetry
The word Quran means recitation.

When the revelation was given to Muhammid (pbuh) it was done in the way of poetic verse, this is very evedent whan one listens to the recitation in arabic.

That's one of the things taht make it difficult to translate into english, like Lao Tzu's Tao ... does one try to capture that artistic meaning, or offer a strict transliteration?
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks
I ordered one...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Islam is worse?
Abraham was the seed of Mohammed as well as Jesus. Before you post the evils of Islam I suggest you do a google of the evils of the Old Testament as concerns such items as human sacrifice and incest. Both books, the Quran and the Old Testament are a history of the same family.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Actually Ishmael and Jacob
Edited on Sun Jun-05-05 02:08 AM by wtmusic
were the sons of Abraham, and Mohammed came about 5000 years later

onedit: nevermind, I understand whatcher saying now :spank:
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mnmod Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
30. I think there is some difference
Non Muslims are obliged to pay a different tax (Jizyah) instead of the Zakah..

In most Muslim states oyu can not convert someone to another religiong under pain of death..
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. ?
"basic goal the subjugation of others and the immunity of themselves"?

Is that somewhere in the Koran, or is that your interpretation of it (surely you must have read it), or is that a generalization which assigns the Taliban's version of Islam to the 700 *other* Muslims around the globe?

If you fear they're going to prey on your tolerance I wouldn't worry (they'd find mighty slim pickins). :eyes:

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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
This was brilliantly written:

"Those who hold these beliefs of xenophobic superiority prey upon the tolerance of others, and the worst of them use it for all it's worth."

It takes a great deal of courage to point out that everything is, in fact, NOT created equal in today's politically correct and de-constructionist, post-modernist society.

I'm not religious, but until recently I've respected other people's desire to practice; and I considered it fairly healthy for society. That has ALL changed with this cancer of creeping fundamentalism metastasizing through the world.

Religion has bullied it's way through public life, gained a stranglehold on discourse here in the U.S., and is well on it's way to being forced into everyone's private life - especially single WOMEN who are being denied access to birth control. I just want to tell the whole world - KEEP YOUR RELIGIOUS BULLSHIT AWAY FROM ME. All of it - Muslim, Christian, whatever !!! No Korans for me; and I've got 100 bucks that says no blood has EVER been spilled over the book of the Tao. IMHO that makes it BETTER than the bible or the Koran.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
27. less tolerance ?
Edited on Sun Jun-05-05 08:26 AM by PsychoDad
History might prove you wrong, my friend.

My own opinion is not important, too easy to say I'm biased because I'm Muslim.

So I'll quote non-Muslim sources

From the Australian Parlamentary Library
Mutual Misperceptions: The Historical Context of Muslim-Western Relations
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/cib/2001-02/02cib07.htm#tolerance

Muslim Religious Tolerance

Islam's conquests were undoubtedly facilitated in some areas by the remarkable religious tolerance of its followers, a tolerance uncharacteristic of both the Byzantine Empire and the barbarian kingdoms of western Europe, which-when not pursuing the remnants of ancient paganism or persecuting Jews-were zealously persecuting Christian 'heretics'. To Muslims, however, Jews and Christians were 'people of the book' and were left undisturbed in their religious lives, being made liable only to a small annual tax (jizya) not payable by Muslims. In newly Muslim Damascus, Christians and Muslims shared the same building for their respective worships, until the Muslims purchased it from the Christian community.(9) Even the Zoroastrians of Persia, though not seen as worshippers of the God of Jews, Christians and Muslims, were accorded toleration. Most conversions to Islam were unforced, though areas of pagan belief were sometimes required on pain of death to profess one of the tolerated faiths.(10) In later times there were examples of Muslim rulers practising religious bigotry, but the core of Islamic belief always required tolerance for the 'people of the book'. This is strikingly illustrated by a very early document of the Prophet's, issued in 628, confirming Christian religious and civil liberties (see Appendix two).

The Muslim policy of toleration and the persistent intolerance of many Christian factions had important consequences, strikingly illustrated by the words of no less a personage than the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, around 1173. Addressing the Byzantine Emperor Manuel I, who was contemplating a religious union with the western Church of Rome, the Patriarch said:

Let the Muslim be my master in outward things rather than the Latin dominate me in matters of the spirit. For if I am subject to the Muslim, at least he will not force me to share his faith. But if I have to be ... united with the Roman Church, I may have to separate myself from my God.(11)

And when in 1204 the Fourth Crusade, manipulated in classic realpolitik style by canny Venetian statesmen, attacked not the designated Muslim enemy but the Christian city of Constantinople, Pope Innocent III in Rome could only record his outrage:

How can we expect the Greek Church, no matter what straits it is in, to return to ecclesiastical unity and devotion to the Holy See when all that it sees of the Latins is an example of utter depravity and the works of darkness, so that with justice it despises them as worse than dogs?(12)

Thus intolerance and cynical realpolitik among Christians, contrasted with the Muslim policy of tolerance, vitiated the defence of Europe against the Arab threat.


Here's an interesting article from Radio Free Europe, another non muslim source you might find interesting,
http://www.rferl.org/specials/religion/archive/islam-2.asp

"Experts cite historic examples where Muslim lands were a relatively safe place to be for Christian or Jewish minorities. They point out that, in general, non-Muslim communities remained intact in nearly all the areas under Muslim rule.

And they contrast that with the fate of religious minorities under Christian rule.
...
"The Koranic text itself is very rich with moral discourses prohibiting compulsion, explaining that diversity is actually an intentional act by God and that there is a purpose to diversity -- and that is for people to come to know one another," said Khaled Abou el Fadl, a leading authority on Islamic law and author of the book "The Place Of Tolerance In Islam."

"When Spain was reconquered by the Christians, the Jewish population sought sanctuary in Muslim lands," Abou el Fadl said. "Furthermore, after the fall of the crusader states in Muslim lands, the Christian populations remained and the Christians who live in the area of what today is Syria or Lebanon or Palestine, many of these families can trace their roots right back to the crusades.

"They were not forced to convert and obviously they were not eradicated," Abou el Fadl explained. "So Islam as a whole when it comes to the issue of tolerance, Islam when compared with Christianity for instance, comes out to have a remarkably tolerant record."

Here's another perspective:
http://bedouina.typepad.com/doves_eye/2004/01/tolerance_and_i.html

Can a man who has awakened at dawn to the muezzin calling over Jerusalem really say it's a barbaric religion? Can the man who has studied the Crusades really say that Islam's history is bloodier than Christianity's? And who killed 6 million in the concentration camps? Not the Muslims.

Has Mr. Morris visited the Islamic collection at the Metropolitan Museum of Art? Has he ever listened to Koranic chants coming over the radio? Has he ever sat in a mosque and prayed, or simply breathed? Maybe because of who he is he has never experienced Arab generosity. I am sorry for him.

Such ideas are all based on fear. Thoughts of fear generate hatred. Hatred generates false ideas about the other. They're not true, of course. Every religion has its flaws. But all of them contain kernels of truth. And no people or religious group deserves this kind of sweeping condemnation. It's infantile thinking. It's reductive, and in the end it doesn't help the thinker.



An Article from the Liberty Fellowship Center:
http://spiritwork.myblogsite.com/blog/_archives/2005/5/1/483345.html

"Everyone's God-given human dignity must be respected, regardless of his or her faith, race, ethnic origin, gender, or social status (Qur’an 17:70). Because everyone is created by God Almighty, the Maker of all, humans must treat one another with full honor, respect, and loving-kindness.

The Qur'an states clearly that freedom of religion is a God-given right (2:256).

God loves justice and those who strive to practice it, especially toward people who are different from them in any way, including in matters of religious belief (5:8), (60:8)."

Here is an interesting comparison between Christanity in general and Islam at
http://www.religioustolerance.org/comp_isl_chr.htm


Keep to forgiveness (O Muhammad), and enjoin kindness, and turn away from the ignorant.
The Quran 7:119
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
5. Oh I can just see how those books will end up
Courtesy of freepers with an axe to grind.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
6. There's a load of information on Islam, in English on
Edited on Sun Jun-05-05 01:59 AM by Cleita
the internet if you google. I was looking for information on one of Mohammed's wives who supposedly was a warrior. I found all kinds of information but not what I was looking for. I will have to try again.

Reading the Quran itself probably won't be anymore insightful than reading the Bible is unless you have the background material to study it with.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. A common denominator is the male dominance
and the multiple wives and concubines. When far right wing religious idiots quote the old Testament to support their views, they are never challenged on the fact that women were treated as subhuman during this period.
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aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
31. Yes
Patriarchal dominance was the prevalent cultural model at the time and place when these Abramaic monotheistic religions were created.

There is no such thing as human being free of cultural and social conditioning, or culture or sociaty not conditioned by it's enviroment.

And there are no societies or cultures or religions without eternal internal conflict, subject to pressures of both change and perceverance.

That is the nature of all evolutionary processes dependent of time.

The root of all religion is the experience timeless, selfless compassion, which naturally cannot be codified into morality, and all social religious structures suffer from this eternal inherent conflict, but of course this does not diminish the sociocultural value of those religions or any other codifications that attempt to create better conditions for society and individuals removing obstacles from experiencing non-judgemental compassion.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Try this link
www.askimam.com

It's a site where anyone can ask Muslim eligious leaders questions about Islam.

If you search the site, you can get answers on just about any question you can think of.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #12
33. Thanks for the link.
I have it bookmarked for future reference. :-)
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #12
34. Another good site
Islam Online
http://www.islamonline.org/english/index.shtml

There is also an Islamic news server named Islam Online
http://www.islamonline.com/
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 03:41 AM
Response to Original message
13. ya know . . . the notion that BushCo would try to instigate . . .
tension and/or hostility between the "Muslim world" and the "Christian world" is not at all far-fetched . . .
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Rapture ready! Right? Armageddon here we come!
n/t

He's way too brain dead and far too dangerous, but then just look at his family history. Satan does indeed walk amongst us. Hi, Poppy!
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LightningFlash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 05:14 AM
Response to Original message
14. Quoran I remain indifferent. It does not feel right.
Granted, there is many different ways one can read the Quoran as well. I would say all religious institutions, regardless of their servicing (minus let's say, cult paganism) need to be fully protected by the free speech ammendment.

There is no due reason to incite racist bigotry based on one's personal religious beliefs. If you hate the quoran, hate the quoran then and protest. Do not defame it, desecrate it, destroy it and burn the books because of it. If you hate the bible, hate the bible. Do not defame, enflame, coldly step on or destroy the works in spite.

All religious institutions teachings are subject to our interpretations, they are not subject to a rule of law which says this must be fact.

There are many things you can get from your own interpretations of Allah, as there is of Christ. Whether that be Satan, God, Normandy or any manner of Buddha is entirely up to you. It should be a crime to in fact instigate hate against another religious group, simply because you disagree with them.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. "cult paganism?"
What exactly is cult paganism, and why should its practitioners be stripped of the protection of the free speech amendment?
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LightningFlash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Any type of religion advocating sacrafice of living beings.
Ie, satan rituals, staining of blood carcasses, the cults that kidnapped Johnny Gosch, the Florida dog and pony shows, etc.

Anything that follows the preverse rituals of worshipping satan and harming other individuals should be banned and not afforded the same protections.

Although paganism I find strange because, back in the royal age it was an earlier form of christianity.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. You are just ignorant.
I happen to personally know a few Satanists, and their religion does not involve harming anyone or anything. Neither does the religion of the Pagans I know. (BTW there IS a difference between Satanists and Pagans.)
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LightningFlash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. There is alot of fringe cults who do advocate sacrafices.
And those involve harming anything from animals to humans, so it is not an issue that can be taken lightly.(Nor dismissed)
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aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. Name one such fringe cult
I'm not trying to prove negative, but can you prove your claim?

How about the clobal cult of sarcofagous consumers, do you think the Meat Industry Cult of slaughterers and animal torturers should be denied freedom of expression?

I suppose you have never harmed, e.g killed, an animal?
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LightningFlash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Actually, there is no need to just prove one.
Since there is more than ten of these which have popped up recently, when the seperation of church and state is no longer of concern.

http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/060305/new_morecult001.shtml

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/06/03/wsat03.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/06/03/ixworld.html

I won't ever forget the recent one right around my Dallas, Texas neighborhood either.
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aneerkoinos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Bit off the subject
Which was "fringe cults who do advocate sacrafices".

Those are criminal pedophile rings of reverse Christians or other sick people that work in utmost secrecy and don't publicly advocate anything.
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smokeyjoe Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 05:37 AM
Response to Original message
16. Religion depends on which fairy tale you believe.
I truly don't believe any of them, but I don't try to put my beliefs out there as the gospel either and condemn someone for needing something in their lives to keep them going while they're living on this planet.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 05:50 AM
Response to Original message
19. Whether true or not
Islam is just another opiate of the masses used by ruling elites to justify their position.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 06:05 AM
Response to Original message
21. free paper with your torture
A gesture is only as good as the acts that accompany it.
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oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Authoritarian elements in religions: oppose them
Edited on Sun Jun-05-05 07:06 AM by oscar111
cruel, authroritarian elements can be found in many religions. One should not be any more tolerant of those elements, than of Hitler's similar elements in the Germany of his time.

Just because such elements pop up in a religion, does not justify tolerating them. Suffering that results is just as real.

Religious tolerance sounds fine, till you recall that many had or now have human and animal sacrifice {one S A cult, last month or two, in the news for killing a kid as a ritual}.

The real base of the LW is reducing suffering. Equality is almost as basic.

Ideas, looking up from the LW's core base:
1 reduce suffering
2 achieve that via equality
3 basic social benefits.. food, shelter, free medics, free schools, guaranteed jobs, fat pensions.
4 equality via democracy

Religious elements that up suffering, are RW. We should REDUCE suffering.

H G Wells Outline of History

and a brief look at parts of the Koran, are what i know of islam.
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oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Judge a religion, how to
use only the words of the founder, no commentaries... clerics get it wrong.

The life actions of the founder also appear to be a fair basis for judging .

But avoid things like actions of disciples.. or comments added by priests years later.

What do they really know?

The words of the founder are what fundies of all religions often use. Recent LW reform offshoots can be swept away. If the founder was fascist, look out. Trouble can rise up anyday from fundies.

Might be some fact to invisible spirits, so i dont condemn all religion. I keep an open mind and pray for divine appearance in our skies to clear up the mystery of it all.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
26. kick!
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-05 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
35. I like it when people in the world don't see us through neocon glasses
I was so happy when weresorryeverybody came out after the election. It was fantastic to read the replies from people all over the world who said that they were set to write off our country after Bush was re-elected, but didn't because of what they read at that site. That they realized that we weren't all the caricature of what an American is.
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