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the problem with Christianity is with the bible

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 10:57 AM
Original message
the problem with Christianity is with the bible
and dominioniism a bible based problem, coming from the bible itself.http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/1_26.html.

The bible is not a book to base ANY morality upon it is NOT a guide on how to be good person.Faith kills History shows this.
As long as Christians and churches excuse their bibles more corrupted texts for the bible excused abuses against humanity and call it the word of god it will continue to spawn believers like the christofascistts we have taking over our government today.


It's the bible itself that causes right wing Christianity.
Christianity has an ugly history and to deny that and still cling to the bible to me says too many Christians do not understand the book and do not look beyond the feel good phrases. Problem is OTHER Christians see beyond the feel good phrases and oppress society and people with it in the name of faith and divine extortion.And the god of the bible SANCTIONS this,itself.

I think the bible justifies slavery....And it excuses dominionist sicko wealth prosperity scam/teaching The twisted beliefs of fundamentalists go back to the Zealot sects, the slave state and divine right of kings is indeed biblical...and deadly to freedom.

Liberal Christians better look at their bibles closer and stop and THINK of what is saying and what the words mean in context and how it could be applied by bullies or an empire or they will never have the tools or savvy to stop the dominionists from destroying us with their culture war and their narcissistic insanity to do destruction to create Armageddon to live out a re birthing traumas fantasy that I think all of society struggles with unconsiously...

The bible and the words in it being taken literally as the bible itself says to do,is what made the dominionists the crusades and inquisition possible.The bible and the words in it and what they mean are the problem..Selective viewing of the Christian bible and other "holy" texts as well through certain feel good verses and rose colored glasses does not address the real life problems this belief system causes real people living together in real life..


http://www.creationtheory.org/BiblicalMorality/JesusFix.shtml

There is not a single condemnation of slavery by Jesus in the entire gospels. Yet it is inconceivable that Jesus was unaware of slavery and the moral issue since "Jesus lived in a world where slavery was common.

Why do you think that is????

There seem to have been slave revolts in Palestine and Jordan in Jesus' youth. There were innumerable slaves of the Emperor and the Roman state; the Jerusalem temple owned slaves; the High Priests owned slaves (one of them lost an ear in Jesus' arrest); all of the rich and many of the middle classes owned slaves." Yet "Jesus never attacked the practice. He took the state of affairs for granted" Professor Morton Smith, Columbia University, What The Bible Says 1989 p143.
What of the attitude of Paul ? He wrote : "Those who are slaves must consider their masters worthy of all respect, so that no one will speak evil of the name of God and of our teaching. Slaves belonging to Christian masters must not despise them, for they are their brothers." (1 Timothy 6:1-2).

Paul's reference to "Christian masters" immediately reveals that early Christians owned slaves. But far from condemning the practice amongst fellow Christians and in the wider world, Paul does the opposite by arguing that slave masters, be they Christians or non-Christians, must be given respect by their slaves. It is striking just how emphatic Paul is about this, particularly in his use of words such as "must" and "all".

Paul's letter to Titus tells slaves in no uncertain terms that : "Slaves are to submit to their masters and please them in all things. They must not answer them back or steal from them. Instead, they must show that they are always good and faithful, so as to bring credit to the teaching about God our Saviour in all they do." 2: 9-10.


http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/9515.htm

In the third commandment of the ten commandments, it says in literal translation to not covet thy neighbors man servants. That is a nice word for slave. They were considered property, so the more you had the more wealthy, so according to the bible the northern states during the U.S. civil war we were breaking one of the commandments.

Because many of the classes that have owned slaves throughout history, have always thrown up the jealousy excuse to people that want to end it. This very commandment has very oppressive connotations, because it sees any one that tries to free themselves out of their system is just "jealous" this belief implies that jealousy is the motive and brushes away the oppressive system that they are being attacked for.

'Does Bush's bullshit quote.."they covet us for our "freedoms" ie bullying and wealth and extortion of corporation/owners sound familiar and bible based ? It is.

This word "covet" can be applied to whatever by law is considered property, and to many people in the south it was stealing or theft when people were conducting the underground railroad etc. I don't think it was stealing, This law like many other biblical references can and has been used to justify their economic condition or whatever property laws are in place to help a group of people. I also meant that by calling it jealousy or coveting someone else's goods, is usually an accusation upon the peoples under oppression to ignore their issues.

And gay marriage abortion all of this shit does not deal with the fact people in America go hungry food stamps are being cut,bosses are abusive,the government is intrusive, billions of people are suffering and working long hours for no benefits and low wages that live paycheck to paycheck so the wealthy few can have it all.

More recently many people actually believe that the reactions of people toward the U.S. are because their jealousy of our riches or freedoms, or people call strikers jealous of the business owners, or people call women who want equal freedoms only jealous of the male dominated society. This wording as it has been used throughout history and in the bible only brushes off a serious look at the problems. So by calling it coveting in the bible only gives excuses for later people in history to use similar excuses for similar problems.

The bible has the seeds of fascism in it. The evil in the bible is contradictory and subtle.People tend to cherry pick verses and omit the evil verse and take it out of it's cultural contexts It's a psychologically manipulative book when taken literally and treated as if it is supernatural.Faith has no reason and it is toxic to a culture that has to use reason to get along with diverse people.
A horrid caste system in India was built upon religious beliefs as an answer to top down power to justify the wealthy class rule, too,It has been done before . It has been done before here too in the south.

Nowadays we have a wage slave system that creates illusory freedom.
Work or starve..Sounds so commie put that way doesn't it? Well communism and capitalism are very similar in one big thing..they share alot of the same basis of operation.Work for a master obey or or die.. The adherents to these allegedly opposite systems of economics refuse to see this connection between the root of these two beliefs which boil down to the same shit,work to exist or die,
and ownership is good.. be the state owning all or individuals who basically own all through corporations that make worker states and force people to be beholden to them which is facilitated through exploitation of labor ,distribution and massive theft ,domination and the selling of the basic needs to make existence for a human for labor or obedience to a master or boss or landlord..A lord is a lord and they all hoard and make you pay to exist and to not suffer on Earth.Misery is profitable to masters.

If you did not have to pay and work for some boss(master) to eat what the Earth gives all for free you might not sell your labor so cheap to assholes and control freaks and thieves and put up with mistreatment at work or poverty..If you could escape you could build a different culture with a different value system than this wage slave based one we have has..But if you try it the"powers that dominate"(or principalities and powers )does not want anyone to be happy or free dropping out of their control system making a rival culture to their empire.This is why colonists destroy other indigenous cultures. Like capitalists colonialists wipe out the competition so they are the only game in town and can do whatever they want to you..

The bible justifies this oppression and all sorts of other evil against humanity...The bible cannot be salvaged in a liberal friendly way. The book is too corrupted.


In the bible slaves are told to be subject to their masters,and serve them well...

There are many many examples relating Christianity to a form of slavery (slavery to God) and the 'shackles' of sin,"Serving" god all are symbols of slavery. The wicked slave/good slave analogy's, slaves deserving to be beaten for their transgressions (like Christians are punished)

The slave owners believed that Northern abolitionists were breaking God's commands by helping to free the slaves, slavery was a practice obviously condoned in the bible...

"Unbiblical" modern ideas like womans rights ,are a sign of people's more enlightened,more rational humane orientation. .


This belief in the bible,that posits this dominion of God and his elect man as his slaves acting as and masters of women and the earth for themselves as if god allows this is why the Klan flag and the Christian flag look so frighteningly similar..It's not because the Christian flag was "co opted" by the Klan.. Its because the Klan and Christianity by default are both rooted in the same kind of sick faith based, very destructive beliefs to human beings like slavery.
Whether one Christian admits this and the other does not is a moot point for their text god and faith sanctions human rights atrocity on it's own, in black and white(or red and white) regardless of opinions of what a good Christian is or isn't.

Making evil into good and good into evil is what the bible DOES to your internal sense of ethics,of knowing right and wrong .The bible encourages you adopt a selective kind of moral relativism about human rights.

Don't be fooled by the sickness in the bible, liberal Christians.
Look at your beliefs and bible closer.Admit it has horrors in it that your God finds pleasing to itself.
.
Under the pretty verses you like in the bible there is also a dark oppressive type of ruler that lurks there and this ruler is justified by god through the words in that book if you believe it and act on it as truth..it is dangerous.
If you believe the bible god has a right to own your life,own your mind and heart,you are a slave to it ,you worship a ruler,a master, a power and principality and you are shackled to it with your fear and awe. The lord of this world,to Christians is Jesus who is also the "morning star" coincidentally a name used in other parts of the bible for Satan and the king of Babylonia. Go figure...
The dominionists are Antichrist..but so are Liberal Christians...the
bystanders to antichrist washing the blood off their hands like Pilate..

The empire mind itself is who and what that wrote or edited the bible at the council of Nicea in Rome.Original Christianity was ANTI AUTHORITARIAN, Gnostic(know yourself the kingdom of God is within you) and Anti Archon or anti ruler /master bully, anti control system,anti abuse, and anti slave.The Romans edited that part OUT of the bible..left enough of the good stuff to make people believe..it is good...Be careful what you believe,and call THE TRUTH.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:00 AM
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'd favor a new re-tooled Bible with Bill Moyers as editor.
I trust Moyers' version of Christian tenets. And he's a hell of a lot better writer than Saul of Tarsus.
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Imagine My Surprise Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. That's because he's not a self-loathing, woman-hating gay man
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Imagine My Surprise Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Did not mean to imply that gay men are women-hating; in Paul's case...
I believe that was true.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. IMS, I'm not sure how to respond to your post.
Edited on Thu Jun-02-05 10:53 PM by Old Crusoe
We agree that self-loathing and misogyny would be antithetical to any spiritual pursuit, at least a pursuit grounded in affirmation and love.

I don't know if Moyers is straight or gay but I'm not sure that his sexual orientation is, or should be, a factor in my wish that he retool & edit a new Bible.

What I meant to say -- and maybe I didn't do a very good job -- is that I trust his interpretation and big-picture view of the texts & would love it if he undertook to edit and re-tool those texts to make them more expressly affirming.

For example, I think we can trash Leviticus. It's interesting but unneeded, not to mention the far-right fundies use it as leverage against gay and lesbian people.

And to steal an idea from Kurt Vonnegut, we could use a lot less of the Ten Commandments and a good deal more of the Sermon on the Mount.
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
3. the problem is not the bible, the torah or the koran ....
its the twisted bastards that exploit them.
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Shoeempress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. seconded
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. thirded..
..hit the nail on the head...
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
26. Exactly. The real problem is not a book. It is the
misguided people who are to blame.
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Tux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Nope
I haven't read the Koran and one is coming in soon so that book will be left out. Assuming Torah is similar to Bible's OT, I will make little remarks since I never read the real Torah.

As for the Bible, why not edit it? I was always suspicious that Jesus bitched about Romans yet Romans got their own book into the Bible. Nice and convenient to maintain an empire through religion. Bible can never be banned (1st Amendment) but we do have alternatives. Jefferson Bible covers Jesus only and would fit liberal (humanitarian) views. Dhammapada and Tao Te Ching are also good since they are more spiritual and don't promote killing/murder.

The main problem is that religion is so set, it is dead. Nothing new comes from it. Spirituality is a process of discovery and exploration of the spiritual side of the Universe. Religion denies reality and wishes to create it's own so they can keep "faith" and get money out of people. Once that exploration has stopped, people will kill to defend their "faith" against enemies of God (science, technology, education, democracy, liberty, human rights, and even thinking).

Red states say they have lots of church goers. These same people refuse to think and base all intellectual debates on emotion. Ask a conservative why communism doesn't work and they'll say "Because it's communism." If their minister didn't tell them what to think, they wouldn't have any ideas in their heads. Southern Baptist Convention recently had a new rule to vote on to encourage people to pull their kids out of public schools because 88% of grads never go back to church. That cuts into their profits and makes them question their "faith". Bible supports control over church members at all costs. Many churches even tell people how to vote.

I wonder who wipes the droul from their chins.
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hippiegranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. what YOU said:
>Spirituality is a process of discovery and exploration of the spiritual side of the Universe. Religion denies reality and wishes to create it's own so they can keep "faith" and get money out of people.<

I couldn't agree more. Spirituality and Religion are not the same thing. Have been saying this for years!
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Imagine My Surprise Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. I wonder who wipes their asses.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Editing is not needed as much as Commentary....
The Catholic bible I read in my youth had introductions & notes on interpretation--from various Church scholars. I attended a Bar Mitzvah & the scripture used included commentaries from various rabbis famous for their wisdom.

Reading the Bible as literal, absolute truth is not practical. Besides--even the "Bible Believers" only pay attention to parts of the Book. And they often accept "interpretations" by those who have ulterior motives--instead of using their own brains.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Yes
Think of how different it would be if people actually followed Jesus. Especially people like Falwell, Robertson and Dobson. They claim to be Christians but you NEVER hear him talking about anything from the gospel books (Jesus teachings, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). I was reading an article about CNP someone posted here which is a rightwing group (you can find it at http://www.au.org which is the Americans United for Seperation of Church and State website) and they were telling how groups like Dobson's want everything to be like in the Old Testament. So if you think about it if you only follow the Old Testament you're not a Christian at all because you don't follow anything Christian.
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elshiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
23. AMEN, hon!
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. Man Made Religions-Man Made Laws-These are different from a
true religion. When man gets involved, religion and spirituality go right out the window....
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Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. "True religion" is rhetorically equivalent to "round square"
Identify a non-manmade religion, and we can discuss it.
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drdtroit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. Religion IS man-made, spirituality is empirical to the universe. n/t
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. >billions of people are suffering and working long hours for no benefits
Might want to check your US population figures.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
10. Oh dear
Hard to know where to begin, but I'll say that just because someone cloaks a self-serving pile of manure in biblical language doesn't make that pile of manure "Christian" any more than walking into a barn makes you a cow.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
15. The problem with religion
is men. ;-)

All philosophies of living, including xtianity, are imperfectly applied because we are imperfect.

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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Men are always the problem.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. lol!
;-)
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thecai Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
22. The Problem Is Taking Quotes Out of Context...
...and misinterpretation.
Jesus said to treat "bondservants" as sons.
Many "conservative, fundamentalist, right-wing christians", (et al), contort and distort scriptures, plus selectively believe certain scriptures but deny the Bible principals; Love your neighbor as you Love yourself.
RW "Christians" take part of Old Testament beliefs and use them today, but in that case, we would have to sacrifice animals for our sins. Jesus did away with that, and said to live by the New Covenant.
GOD is Love, not hate. The Bible is not a book of rules to twist to our liking, but a book of Hope, Comfort, Healing, Strength, Salvation, and Love.
The Bible gives excellent instructions on discerning evil leaders, which the RW "Christians" ignore. OBVIOUSLY.

GOD also gave us a free will to choose Him or not, unlike those who force "religion" on others. Jesus never went door-to-door intruding on anyone, people went to Him instead.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. For The Record, Ma'am
A most entertaining work in my possession, by Mr. Fitzhugh, a leading apologist for slavery in the antebellum South, contains numerous statements that the relation between master and slave on the plantation was familial in nature, and that bonds of love and devotion connected all parties to the transaction....
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-05 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
25. I didn't read your entire diatribe, but I have to sadly agree.
I HAVE read the bible. A lot.

The bible, taken as a whole, is an violent, misogynistic, homophobic, disgustingly horrible book--perhaps the most nakedly genocidal book in history. No wonder fundies end up with a warped sense of morality...gack! There is very little good in the bible and most of the halfway decent quotes are attributed to "Jesus," who probably never even existed. Most of the things Jesus supposedly said were actually said by earlier philosophers and plagiarized into the NT. Paul was the first heretic, preaching his hatred of women and gays.

For those who disagree, just read the damn thing, OK? I'm not going to look up the disgusting verses for you. It's too time-consuming because there are so many. Besides, I've had my fill of the bloodthirsty tome. The bible is just a nasty, violent book. I can't understand why the fact that it's old should matter so much when the content is deplorable. Personally, I can't stand the sight of the evil book in "good book" clothing anymore.

As a fundy student, I was forced to study the Old Testament, spending a lot of time on Joshua's genocide of the native peoples in "The Promised Land." I'm not much into biblical apologists like a JW friend of mine--now EX-friend of mine--who insisted that the native people of Palestine "had it coming" because they were "evil." :eyes: Sound like a president of a powerful country you know? They deserved it 'cause they were evildoers. Bwahahahahaha!

I know my opinion isn't popular, but I bet I've read the bible more than all the people who post in this thread put together. I won't read it anymore. It warped my impressionable little mind.

If people want to warp their minds by reading and believing it, fine. I won't throw your bible in the toilet, but I might throw old copies of my bibles there...might be cathartic.
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