Charles Rangel can suck my d- -k....

[Postman]

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--draft-rangel0527may27,0,1270715.story?coll=ny-region-apnewyork

Anti-war lawmaker presses again for military draft

I don't give a damn if it is just a ploy to get the republicans to admit they botched this thing from the start. To propose that we start drafting people is just crazy.

What do you do when you discover you're running in the wrong direction? Double your speed???

[hlthe2b]

1. I agree we need to get the hell out of Iraq and cut our losses..

Maybe Rangel is trying to force the issue by doing this.

[chaumont58]

2. Another bad thing:

If these assholes have a larger military, they will use it to attack other countries.
chimpie and his crew can not be trusted.

[artfan]

3. I agree with him

the recruiters are going all out for the poorest of the kids because they have fewer options meanwhile people who sit back and claim they are more patriotic than anyone else. A draft may shut up the young republicans and get people off their asses. I have a lot to lose in this my oldest is 16 and recruiters are already bothering her.

[ThomWV]

4. I don't agree

I think there should be a draft and I think it should be all inclusive, no exemptions for other than disabeling physical problems that can not be dealt with by any reasonable means.

I honestly think that the reason our national defense is out of control is because so few people have participated in it.

Thom

[punpirate]

10. And with a bunch of chickenhawks running...

... a Republican Congress, and a chickenhawk President signing any bill, do you really believe that an all-inclusive, no exemptions draft bill would ever be passed and signed?

That's why Rangel's proposal bothers me.

Beyond that, our national defense isn't out of control because of lack of participation--it's because people take for granted, erroneously, that more money spent on defense means they're safer--that resulting huge defense establishment is at the disposal of any President that desires to use it.

The normal condition of a democracy doesn't require conscription in peacetime, and doesn't require sixty years of wartime spending--which is precisely the case of the U.S. since WWII.

Cheers.

[MADem]

20. Rangel won't go for exceptions, and he has been the voice on this issue

...of "shared sacrifice" so far. If they try to slide in exceptions, he will be all over the tube, and he will NOT let it go.

I like that man--he is a vet, himself, and knows the score.

[punpirate]

30. Rangel may not want exceptions...

... but, he doesn't control the House... Tom DeLay does. Rangel would probably try to get as much TV time as possible, but, my guess is that he'd probably get shut out if the powers that be didn't want him heard.

Everyone is saying they don't want a draft--including the military--and I'm of the opinion that if they have one, it simply feeds the ability of the Pentagon to fight more wars simultaneously, which is not a good thing, for a host of reasons. Nor can the generals in the Pentagon use lack of manpower as an excuse for resisting clearly foolish decisions made by the Bushies.

But, my guess is that if there's another terrorist attack in the country, regardless of size, it will used to rush through a draft--but on the Republicans' terms, not Charlie Rangel's, sad to say....

[MADem]

40. Then he votes against his own bill and goes on FAUX to tell everyone why

Charlie cannot lose on this issue. The GOP has to share the burden, or take the blame. That is how he is framing it. It's quite ingenious, actually.

[punpirate]

43. We can all lose on his bill...

... if it's passed in a form that isn't fair.

I've just seen too much already to indicate that this right-wing bunch in Congress now can ever feel any shame, or take the blame for anything. It's just not in them.

*sigh*

[MADem]

45. They vote it in with exceptions, they take the heat for it

And with the runup to 06 in full swing, they will be bobbing and weaving as long as they can to AVOID voting on this; the problem though, is that the military waddles into the HASC and SASC hearings and tells them that they are in dire straits, and must have more fodder. So, are they gonna support the military, or not?

It's a conundrum...FOR THEM. I enjoy their discomfiture, frankly. I hope Charlie and company keep the pressure on.

[Snotcicles]

5. No the idea is to spread the sacrifice to republican families

and maybe they will work harder to get this war over if there kids are dying too.

[KeepItReal]

13. You are exactly right. Imagine how people will pitch a fit

...if their GOP-leaning, surburban fantasy is interrupted by Uncle Sam demanding that thier draft-age son or daughter report for basic training and then on to Iraq.

The "mainstream media" will no longer be able to hide the fact that there is actually a war on and peoples' lives are being destroyed every day.

Rep Rangel is doing the right thing.

If this war is so worth it, why doesn't Bush & Co encourage folks to enlist publicly and repeatedly? All he's ever said was to go on vacation and keep shopping.

[tnlefty]

38. Send in the twins!!!!

If this is such a just and noble cause then they should willingly sign up for Daddy's grand adventure wouldn't ya think?

[Wilms]

6. Classy subject line, dude. n/t

[cobaindrain]

7. I hate this proposal as well, it makes Democrats look bad

to suggest such a thing is preposterous, and it hurts us politically

[Rowdyboy]

8. If Americans want right-wing nutcase goverment, they must have

recruits for their wars. Perhaps if the draft was a serious threat, some of those asshole, SUV driving, suburban Republicans might "get it" when THEIR kids are at risk. Until then, they'll just keep backing the status quo.

[HockeyMom]

22. Exactly WHY Rnagel is doing it.

They are fighting a "volunteer" Leave No Child Unrecruited for Iraq, think they will be beating down the doors to volunteer for IRAN, SYRIA, N. KOREA, VENEZUELA, or who know who else?

Newsday did a piece a few weeks ago interviewing poor, minority kids. They said over and over they would rather flip burgers at a fast food chain for minimum wage than die in a war they didn't even agree with.

[Catherine Vincent]

9. If you want him to do that, how can he get in touch with you?

Your profile is disabled. :-)

All kidding aside, I understand how you feel, I don't agree 100% with Rangel either, but I know what he is attempting to do.

[Cornus]

11. Having a draft is not "just crazy"

I agree with Rangel that the draft should be reinstated. It's certainly more equitable if EVERYONE did their fair share.

IMHO the draft should never have been stopped. You can have a draft and a military force without ever having to go to war. It's got nothing to do with Iraq.

[ElectroPrincess]

15. "IMHO the draft should never have been stopped."

Whoa there Cornus!?! Rangel's point is that when working class right wing republicans start to see THEIR KIDS coming home without limbs or in a flag draped coffin, then they'll cease talking like wealthy corporate republicans and also demand an end to this "perpetual war syndrome" that BushCo has unleashed on us.

Remember Middle and Working Class Right Wing Republicans don't matter to the power brokers in the Senate and House. A draft will wake up the lower class from hyper-focusing on personal "moral" issues and redirect to the HERE and NOW.

[H2O Man]

12. I disagree with him on this, also.

However, I understand what he is saying. And I think it is extremely important that people like us contact him and make our concerns known in a rational way.

[heidler1]

14. Rangle wants us out too. His method makes sense to me.

However resistence to enlisting seems to be working, too. How about these for a bumper stickers: "Support our young people with jobs so they won't enlist and get killed." or "Is enlisting in the Army a form of suicide?" or "If you don't enlist we DUs will love you anyway."

[xray s]

16. I disagree with Rangel's strategy.

Bush has destroyed the volunteer army. Any day now the Republicans in Congress are going to have to consider a draft or the Army is screwed.

Why do we want to give them cover and take some of the blame for having to reinstate the draft?

The Republicans screwed up. Let them introduce the draft bill.

[MADem]

21. Oh, no worries, they WILL

He's had his effort slapped down before. But he is ON RECORD about it, has been all over TV about it, and has established himself as the voice who has spoken the longest, and the most plainly, about this issue. No college deferments!! If you get the call, you can finish your semester, and off you go...does not matter if you are at Podunk Community College or Harvard. Grab yer gun!

Anyone who does not see what is coming is blind or in denial. Why do you think they are trying to further restrict women, who make up a fifth or more of our forces, from combat support functions? BECAUSE THEY WANT TO HAVE SOMETHING TO LEAN ON TO EXCUSE THEM FROM THE DRAFT. Unless they can get women AWAY from combat, BY LAW, the ACLU and other outfits will come after the Gub-mint for failing to apply the draft law equally to men and women.

I've talked about the targeted draft before. This won't be a full call-up, like Vietnam, it will be a call-up of cannon fodder, with a few other specialities that have gaping holes in them.

[bvar22]

17. I'm with Charley on this one.

I understand those who aren't, but I think this is ONE way to make this war REAL for all Americans. The TV won't show it, bush* says we are winning, people keep dying,...and it is all so FAR AWAY from most Americans that its not really REAL. When children from the RED suburbs start coming home in boxes, it'll get REAL.

It's the Repuiblican's War, not the Democrats (though some of our CorpoMoney addicted assholes cheered it on). They will pay the political price. Some of our more affluent children should also share the price.

NO College deferments!!!! There are OVER 100,000 College Republicans. Time for them to get their arms and legs blown off for the greater glory of george bush*.

[fujiyama]

18. It's a bad idea

I understand his reasoning but in this country there will always be exceptions for the rich and they will always find a way to get others to fight their wars. You think the repukes in congress are going to send their kids to fight this war? Not fuckin likely.

Also, this is just plain political posturing. Rangel keeps bringing this bill up repeatedly to have it get shot down. It hasn't even gone up for a vote and likely won't.

I also think it weakened Kerry's own message during the campaign when he said there may be a draft in a second Bush term. People found out it was a Dem that wrote the bill and figured, "wait the Dems are the ones that want a draft".

[MADem]

54. It was voted on, shot down 402-2

http://www.columbiaspectator.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/10/06/41639f0ad4825

The House voted 402-2 yesterday against a bill that proposed reinstating the draft. Introduced in January 2003 by Congressman Charles Rangel (D-NY), who represents some parts of Harlem and some parts of Columbia, the bill "would reinstitute a draft to compulsory military or alternative national service for men and women, aged 18 to 26, who are citizens or permanent residents of the United States."

The bill would have required those within the proscribed age limits to serve to promote national or homeland security as defined by the President, providing education deferments only for high school students.

Despite Internet rumors--and there have been many, especially with an intensifying election season--Brian Hillary, a representative in Congressman Rangel's office, emphasized that the implementation of a mandatory draft is not likely to happen anytime in the near future.

For college students who are worried that the draft would be reinstituted in June 2005, Hillary has a message: "it's a load of crap."

Republicans said the bill was introduced to undermine the president's foreign policy. In the House, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) said, "This campaign is a baseless and malevolent concoction of the Democratic party. It has one purpose--to spread fear."

Mr. Hillary is probably right about the draft not happening in 05--but I think they may have trouble keeping the fodder flowing until after the 06 elections.

[KeepItReal]

19. Here's why we need a draft:

I watched a documentary by Iraq war vet who in one segment visited the GOP national convention.

He interviewed a young, able-bodied Republican at one of their pep-rallies in the convention hall. The veteran asked the young man if he was in support of the invasion of Iraq. The young man said enthusiastically "yes". The veteran then asked the young man if he'd be willing to join the military to go and fight in that same conflict.

The young man just looked at him like he was crazy, then proceeded to say he had more important things to do here at home. Going to fight for what he "believed in" was the farthest thing from his mind.

I cannot believe the restraint the Iraq war veteran showed in the face of such hypocrisy. I don't think I would have kept my cool around someone like that, but the veteran did.

Our soldiers will fight and die just so people like that to have the freedom/right to be war-mongering hypocrites.

[Hamlette]

23. an all volunteer army is too gung ho

it's a difficult question, but on balance with an all volunteer army you get a less educated more aggressive military. If you had some kids who didn't want to be there going to Iraq we might be hearing a more balanced account of what is going on over there. That's how it happened in Vietnam.

Of course, even then, it took 8 years to end that war.

[karlrschneider]

24. I think you have it wrong,

I don't believe his motives are anything but honest and in any case I support a draft. I was subject to it myself and besides why should all the wealthy and powerfully-connected be automatically exempted from fighting in the "war" they support with such fervor?

[H2O Man]

25. The problem with that

is that the proposal for a draft being advocated by the Deputy Undersecretary of Defense etc, which has been documented in copies of their "Issue Paper" from 2-11-03 is what a new draft would look like. The idea of the old-time draft coming back and taking people from all backgrounds is not a possibility.

Thus, even if there is a draft, the rich kids will be assigned to domestic positions that have all the risks of a summer job during their college years. The middle class and poor kids won't be so lucky. They will get the honor of insuring that democratic movement in the Middle East works as well as it is today.

[jaysunb]

26. So you think Charlie R. is gay , huh?

get with the program. Rangel dosen't want a draft. He wants to bring attention to the fact that poor kids are being induced to die while the " others " cheer them on.

Think Son....Think !

[UTUSN]

27. Please Hold Your Breath While You Wait for Charlie to Suck Your Dick(sic)

RANGEL is an authentic Democratic hero and verbally abusing him - especially HERE - is disgusting.

The bottom line elephant in the room is that it's not "peace" or "illegal war" or "emperor Shrub" that are what moves us--------it's THE DRAFT that is the bogeyman of our "convictions".

The Neo-Cons have known from the get-go that it was the draft that killed the Vietnam war and they are postponing it as long as they can.

While there's something to the thought that the Shrubbites will go hog wild(er) with large numbers in the military, there is nothing but truth that an undrafted military hits the low income minorities hardest.

[MADem]

47. Well said, shipmate n/t

[The Pro From Dover]

28. Draft

I guess I'm not sure how the 60% in the Zogby poll below are supposed to deal with the aftermath of Rangel's bill passing. I am a twenty year old who has been an activist against the Iraq war since the beginning. This is an immoral war, which I refuse to take part in. So I guess it's off to prison for me. I am not saying that Rangel is off the mark about the huge drop in support for the war in Iraq that would follow conscription and because I strive for the ending of the Iraq war, I tend to agree with him and support what he is doing. I do, however, think that there is a callous attitude being displayed here. The people against this war who might be drafted are faced with a tough choice, supporting a cause they don't believe in (whether it be in a combat or CO role), becoming an exile from their place of birth, or languishing in state or federal prison (I'm not sure which).

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=871

[KeepItReal]

29. Welcome to DU, Pro

Trust me, Rangel's bill would bring this fiasco war to a screeching halt.

The GOP hypocrites will not allow their "babies" to be sent off to join the Army and fight in Iraq.

The media doesn't even want to report on the number of deserters we have right now who refuse to go *back* to Iraq. How are they gonn hide the numerous folks who are gonna refuse to be drafted?

"Don't worry about the law - they can't arrest us all" - Bubba Sparxx

[Swamp Rat]

33. Hawkeye, is that you?

:D

Welcome to DU!

[MADem]

52. A lot of the people who oppose this war were in your shoes in the 60s

Some were drafted, some were protesters, some were COs, some did the jail time, some ran over the border. This is not the first time that young people were faced with a tough choice. You have to do what you feel is best for you, should the time come, and be prepared to accept the long-term consequences, like many of us did. It's a personal decision, and it is all yours.

Quite frankly, and unfortunately, there is a large segment of this country that does NOT believe the war is immoral, that thinks might makes right, and if we need oil, we should go take it. You aren't going to change their minds with photos of Iraqi victims, or even American ones, so long as they don't know the dead kid in the box. Hey, the SUV needs gas...

They may decide that this war is not such a hot idea, that windpower, hybrid tech and solar energy are viable options, indeed, if it is their kid being hauled off to MEPS for his physical.

[The Pro From Dover]

56. Heh

Involuntary servitude in an immoral war as an American rite of passage. Nice.

[MADem]

57. You apparently are not a PRO at reading

I don't endorse it as a right of passage, all I am saying is IT HAPPENED. And it is PROBABLY gonna happen again. And the only one, apparently, with a "magic wand" is King George...or maybe you???

Lotta snark and heat, little light on the issue.

[The Pro From Dover]

58. Sorry

I meant it as an ironic statement and as an acknowledgment that other people have been in my position. I in no way think you endorse it as a right of passage. Like I said in my original post, I support Rangel, but I dislike it when people fail to acknowledge the negative effects that it might have on people who are on their side of the issue.

[alittlelark]

31. I disagree. This legislation was introduced not long after 9-11

because Rangel saw the writing on the wall. His legislation excuses NO ONE (aside from severe medical). He does not want to see the poor and powerless as the ones to be drafted. The ONLY way to stop these 'wars of choice' is to have the children of those who profit from them on the front lines. They own the media, they own the corporations... they need to have their kids on the front lines.

[Princess Turandot]

35. That's right..his rationale is that the poor or people without

perceived futures enlist in the military in a disproportionate way.
He's called for a draft several times with limited exceptions. I think he is trying to make a point abt who becomes the cannon fodder more than he believes that his bill will be passed.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. We fought the draft in the '60s. It was a mistake.

Now, the people get war on the cheap. The politicians borrow the money or cut the benefits to the poor to finance it. And, the dirty work is (supposedly) handled by a "professional" military. If the troops squawk, the easy rejoinder is, "Hey, you signed up for it." Something I heard too many times to remember in the marines.

Time to bring the war(s) home to the people with their cute little ribbons.

[omega minimo]

34. Don't run so fast you trip over your pee pee

Will someone please tell me how to hide threads on the forum page?

[Lars39]

36. The little X box does the trick.

[oasis]

37. Rangel knows what he's doing. If rich and privileged kids must fight there

will be more diplomacy and less war.

[Just Me]

39. I love Rangel. But, I think this is a dumb issue to advocate at this time

I understand his reasoning. I do.

However, I also understand the visceral and emotional response to this issue and I think it's just dumb for him to push it.

[UdoKier]

41. Rangel is a strange one...

He has a real fixation on the draft thing. He's almost always a great progressive, but then he has close ties to Moon's Unification Church.

But everybody's got their idiosyncrasies...

[ElectroPrincess]

42. What?

"close ties to Moon's Unification Church"

Link please? This is definitely news to me.

[UdoKier]

44. Okay.

http://iapprovethismessiah.com/2004/04/rangel-letter-recognizes-far-right.html

[ElectroPrincess]

46. Thank you ... that is a surprise but I guess politicians are a strange lot

[Itsthetruth]

49. A Really Stupid Idea .... Unless You're For The Draft!

How are right-wing Republicans and military types who want to restore the draft responding to Rangel's idea?

Don't worry. Under any draft proposal that passes, the rich shall receive deferments or safe positions in the military. It has always been that way and always will.

[KittyWampus]

50. That Letter Proves Squat... But Congratulations For Dredging Crap Up

and attempting to smear a Democrat.

[UdoKier]

55. I originally read that at Kos

It's not a RW source.

You should be questioning Rangel about it, not me.

[Pushed To The Left]

48. This bothers me too.

His intentions might be good, but I don't think playing around with the draft is a good idea. A draft will rip this country in half worse than ever.

[Karmadillo]

51. Let's just keep the Poverty Draft and let the poor die

in our wars for empire. The children of privilege are just too valuable to fight and die for oil.

http://nefac.net/node/313

Recruiters are relentlessly using marketing strategies to woo low income youths with little prospects for education and good jobs into the armed forces. Painting the Army as a kind of job training and vocational school, and simultaneously as a financial aid institution, recruiters get youths in high school to sign up to the DEP (Deferred Enlistment Program). When young people try and back out of enlisting, recruiters often lie and tell them it is impossible or illegal to drop out.

In fact, the military isn't a generous financial aid institution, and it isn't concerned with helping pay for school. Two-thirds of all recruits never get any college funding from the military. Only 15% graduated with a four year degree. 65% of recruits who pay the required $1200 into the Montgomery GI Bill never get a dime in return.

In terms of job opportunities, to join the army is actually more detrimental to job prospects. Veterans actually earn less than non-veterans: the average post-Vietnam War-era veteran will earn between 11% and 19% less than non-veterans from comparable class backgrounds. Over 50,000 unemployed veterans are on the waiting list for the military's "retraining" program. The Veterans Administration estimates that 1/3 of homeless people are vets.

<edit>

The military uses economic discrimination (i.e. economic conscription or an economic draft), that forces lower income people into the military in order to earn a living, try to learn a trade or get money for their education. Not surprisingly, the "poverty draft" primarily targets youth of color from low-income areas, both urban and rural. Military recruiters prey upon the working classes in Black, Latino, Native American, Asian, Arab, and Pacific Islander communities. Quite simply, the armed forces target people of color for recruitment disproportionately, and thus die in war disproportionately. During Operation Desert Storm over 50% of the front-line troops were people of color, largely Latino.

Desperate to meet recruiting goals, the military has undertaken another mass expansion of its Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps (JROTC) program. These programs traditionally target communities of color, especially areas of Latino concentration. The prior JROTC expansion took place in 1992 in the aftermath of the Gulf War and the L.A. uprising. Writes Shelly Reese, for American Demographics Magazine, "The riots underscored the lack of opportunities for teenagers in economically disadvantaged areas. That led General Colin Powell to lobby for expanded JROTC."

more...

[mopaul]

53. your subject line is gonna get Gary Bauer all hot and bothered

that's why i like it.

rangle pisses me off too, if he's trying to prove a point, i get it already, give it up.

[stevedeshazer]

59. NO TO THE DRAFT

NO TO THE ILLEGAL WAR.

All those here who want a "new" draft to "wake up America" are NUTS.

WHERE WILL IT END? WHO DECIDES? BUSHCO?

[Moderator]

60. Locking,Inflammatory subject line n/t