If Blacks vote in great numbers, progressive Whites win.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

If Blacks vote in great numbers, progressive Whites win. It's the only way progressive Whites win. If Blacks vote in great numbers, Hispanics win. When Blacks, Hispanics, and progressive Whites vote, women win. When women win, children win. When women and children win, workers win. We must all come up together.

Jesse Jackson

http://www.mamoveon.com/danielpwelch/0306ftt.htm

http://www.fluxrostrum.com/MindFlux/DennisKucinich/electable-candidates.htm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=370988

https://www.kintera.org/site/apps/ka/sl/singlepledgebasket.asp?cid={FB0ABCB2-A3BE-48FC-B8F5-CC31FFF3E4A3}&bin_id={3949F48A-4616-4DEA-8243-98416B9F0DDE}&en=hkKVJ1POLmJPL0MOLjJPI3MOImI0I7MOIgIQJbNYIkITJcOWIhLZIpK

[jiacinto]

1. Registering voters and getting them out is far

People don't want to take the time to fill out the forms. The myriad of responses I get are:

I'm straight
I'm all right
I don't want to fill out no (sic) form
I am too lazy to sign it
I don't care if I am registered to vote
I don't vote
I don't have time
Voting is against my religion
I don't want to sign anything
I don't sign things

It is so discouraging. People laugh at me, look at me weird, and snicker at me. It is such a shame that so many people don't care. It really is. Although I am not supposed to I yelled at someone over that a few days ago.

[Sweetpea]

2. many people are cynical.

[jiacinto]

5. It's sad

It angers me. People die in third world countries fighting for the right to vote, something thes people willingly piss away. It really angers me.

[TacticalPeek]

19. "People die in third world countries"

People also died in this country fighting for the right to vote, adding to the obscenity of low registration and turnout.

[jiacinto]

57. I fully agree

Believe me I do.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. "Voting Is Against My Religion"

That's true if you're a Jehovah's Witness...

It reminds me when I used to go to Daytona Beach and people would try to sell me drugs....Daytona Beach was notorious for that in the lates 70's ... I would just say I was into Jesus to get them off my back....

[jiacinto]

7. I still think it's lame

nt

[Sweetpea]

8. What if we could get some atheletes to participate in voting drives.

[jiacinto]

13. It might work

Also to be candid I am not black and maybe my being white/Hispanic might be the reason why I have so many problems.

[Sweetpea]

16. Where do you live?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. It Depends

There aren't that many Jehovah's Witnesses so some folks are using it as a cop out but if their religion prohibits voting and participating in the civic culture I respect that...

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

9. People fill out forms for organizations they like

People will fill out forms if it's in their interest to - but registering people at a table at some event is like mass marketing - the success rate is very low.

If people are involved in an organization that represents them, like a union, community group, political club, local party, somewhere they go for an event once a month, are friends socially with the staff of the organization, filling out a form and voting is just a natural extension of it.

I agree with you, I've done my share of tabling and registering and I've heard all those excuses. Part of the problem is that registering to vote looks just like signing up for a credit card, except you don't get any free gifts :)

Organize.

[Sweetpea]

12. Plus there are a lot who don't want to be signed up for jury duty.

[jiacinto]

15. Well

I thought that that came from DMV records.

[jiacinto]

14. I know what you mean

But at the same time it does anger me how people are willing to piss away their hard won civil rights.

[jonoboy]

11. shame about that

Ive always thought that the Australian compulsory voting system, even though many of us are against it on principal, really is the way to go..98% of registered voters turn out.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. In all honesty I think the manner in which it is being done is the

biggest turnoff.

People are more suspect of people approaching them cold. You would do better to REGISTER one of those people then ask them to have a "coffee" or "tea" at their home and invites as many of their freinds and neighbors over to talk with them.

As liberals we need to move our strategies from pulling people off the street to encouraging participation. Of the people that you DO register, I would venture to guess many of them would be more amenable to giving an hour of their time and organizing a little registration drive and get together at their home or in a local park area.

Be more creative and more conversive.

YOu are not there to GET something from them...you are there to GIVE.

Look at the court and the ball not at the scoreboard.

[jiacinto]

41. Well

I have to often fill out the forms for people and then just have them sign because they are "too lazy" to do it themselves.

[jonnyblitz]

35. That is sad. The voter registration form is so simple too.

Not much to fill out on one of those. I went to get my drivers license changed to a CT license at the DMV here and I noticed the people working there were asking everybody if they needed to register to vote (motor-voter correct?)and the girl taking care of the line I was in apologized each time (sorry we are required to ask). Well, I needed to change my voter registration to CT also, but when it was my turn to be waited on she never asked me when my other business there was complete. I finally had to come out and ask her for a voter registration form. I thought this was funny because she was all apologies to everyone else when she asked them but for me, who actually WELCOMED being asked, she didnt even ask.

I commend you for putting up with crap to get people to register. :hi:

[Tinoire]

59. Wow- That's really strange

because when I walk the streets of Oakland to register people, I have absolutely no problems. Go figure :shrug:

Of course, I really am representing the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party so when I talk to people about the virtues of the progressive candidates in the race, you know those whacko leftists like Sharpton, Kucinich and Braun who you constantly state are "unelectable", they get excited. I'm surprised at the response you're getting because the main one I get, as they eagerly sign, is "when are the Primaries?".

Advice? Tell them you're working for Sharpton or Kucinich ;) I guarantee you, you'll get more voters that way. Of course, since we Black folks can smell insincerity from a mile away (which is why we haven't been completely brain-washed by that 24/7 White America propaganda shit on TV) you may have to put a little effort into getting your act down and practice phrases like:

"Power to the people"

"Whazzup bro"
"Yes it is racism that sends 4 billion a year to Israel to oppress Brown people while our schools are falling apart"

"Yeah that shit they did to McKinney was wrong!"

"Yeah, Clinton was wrong to break his campaign promise to us about Haitian refugees"

"Kucinich wants to cut billions of that fat Pentagon budget so we can put the money into our schools"

"Free Mumia"
"Yeah we haven't gotten jack shit since they killed Brother Malcolm"

I could, if you'd like, post the links to all those Mckinney and Reparation threads were we poor Black folks were trying to enlighten you and you refused to consider what we said. Maybe now that the Democratic Party just remembered our votes count too, you might want to re-read those for additional pointers :shrug:

Let me know, ok? I'm always glad to help.

But you better hurry up because word on the street is that Greens are having no problems getting to the disenfranchised poor.

No need to thank me ok? I do this for the scary streets of Baltimore ;)

Never forget Carlos Black Right is Center White and there isn't much of the Black Right yet.

From WhoCountsTheVotes' original thread:

Resultados

Tu candidato demócrata preferido

Al Sharpton 1%
Bob Graham 0%
Carol Moseley 0%
Dennis Kucinich 71%
Howard Dean 3%
Jhon Edwards 1%
Jhon Kerry 1%
Joseph Lieberman 1%
Riechard Gephardt 21%

-------

Winners of the Presidential Selector Race
(91,471 Responses to date)

45% Congressman Dennis Kucinich, OH - Democrat
14% Bush, George W. - US President
9% Green Party Candidate
9% Dean, Gov. Howard, VT - Democrat
6% Libertarian Candidate
6% Kerry, Senator John, MA - Democrat
2% Edwards, Senator John, NC - Democrat
2% Gephardt, Cong. Dick, MO - Democrat
2% Lieberman Senator Joe CT - Democrat
2% Moseley-Braun, Former Senator Carol IL - Democrat
1% Sharpton, Reverend Al - Democrat
0% Jackson, Cong. Jesse Jr., IL - Democrat
0% Bayh, Senator Evan, IN - Democrat
0% Biden, Senator Joe, DE - Democrat
0% Clinton, Senator Hillary Rodham, NY - Democrat
0% Leahy, Patrick Senator, Vermont - Democrat
0% Graham, Senator Bob, FL - Democrat
0% Feingold, Senator Russ, WI - Democrat
0% Daschle, Senate Minority Leader Tom, SD - Democrat
0% Phillips, Howard - Constitution
0% McCain, Senator John, AZ- Republican
0% Buchanan, Patrick J. – Reform/Republican
0% Socialist Candidate
0% Clark, Retired Army General Wesley K "Wes" AR - Democrat
0% Kaptur, Cong. Marcy, OH - Democrat
0% Nader, Ralph - Green Party
0% Feinstein, Senator Dianne, CA - Democrat

Here are the results for Florida since that's where you're tring:

Winners of the presidential selector race
(3037 Responses)
(Restricted to FL)

42% Kucinich, Cong. Dennis, OH - Democrat
18% Bush, George W. - US President
9% Dean, Gov. Howard, VT - Democrat
7% Libertarian Candidate
7% Green Party Candidate
6% Kerry, Senator John, MA - Democrat
3% Edwards, Senator John, NC - Democrat
3% Gephardt, Cong. Dick, MO - Democrat
2% Moseley-Braun, Former Senator Carol IL - Democrat
2% Lieberman Senator Joe CT - Democrat
0% Jackson, Cong. Jesse Jr., IL - Democrat
0% Bayh, Senator Evan, IN - Democrat
0% Sharpton, Reverend Al - Democrat
0% Clinton, Senator Hillary Rodham, NY - Democrat
0% Graham, Senator Bob, FL - Democrat
0% LaRouche, Lyndon H. Jr. - Democrat
0% McCain, Senator John, AZ- Republican
0% Leahy, Patrick Senator, Vermont - Democrat
0% Feingold, Senator Russ, WI - Democrat
0% Biden, Senator Joe, DE - Democrat

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

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[jiacinto]

81. "Cracker" is a racist term--you shouldn't use it

We need more than the base to win. But I agree with you--those voters who left the Democratic Party over race can stay gone.

But we should also target swing voters. I think it is a tight balancing act. You need both the base and the swing vote to win.

[Tinoire]

84. I agree with your sentiment

I'm all for letting swing voters come vote with us but not for using them as an excuse to change our platform when the real reason is that too many of our reps have become just as beholden to corporations.

We have a historic opportunity in front of us, because of the extreme disatisfaction of the American people with Bush, and his thieving co-horts, to place a progressive in office. For years we were told that the only reason we couldn't was because the vote would be too close and we had to (puke, puke)... We've drifted so far to the right over the years that only an extreme Leftist even has a chance to get us near that mysterious center anymore.

And now the Democratic Party needs votes but only wants those votes to go to "Moderate" candidates.

I don't agree that those swing voters are racists but their interests do coincide with those of the same business entities that oppress the poor in a racist manner. We're in agreement on this, forget them- quit pandering to swing voters and start pandering to your own base because your base is getting really pissed watching you mess up yet another election.

[Liberator_Rev]

129. Congratulations, J. Don't give up.

The votes you are responsible for might just be the ones that decide some issues/elections. And you are an example to the rest of us.

[jiacinto]

143. Thank you for your kind words

Too bad that certain DUers have nothing but negative things to say. Shame on them.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. African Americans Represent 14% of The Voting Population In Florida

but they represented 16% of the electorate in 00 and it was still close enough for * to steal....

We need to reach beyond our base....

[jiacinto]

4. Registering black people is very hard

As someone who does you won't believe how much crap I deal with doing it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

24. Take your attention off of you and put it on them and their needs

and see what happens. Com from "THIS IS FOR YOU" not this is for me and see if it doesn't shift.

[jiacinto]

26. I've tried doing that

It doesn't work.

[Terran]

25. Would you care to elaborate on that?

I'm thinking maybe you're exuding an attitude that turns off the people you're trying to register. And btw, try capitalizing "Black" next time. It's customary, and shows respect.

Dirk

[jiacinto]

27. I'll do that in the future

Yeah people don't want to register. It's baffling to me.

[KG]

30. could it be the brothers and sisters get tired of seeing their choice

as constantly being between two rich layer-type white guys that are out of touch with what really happening to them?

you might wanna just take some ask them why they don't want to register, or vote.

and then actually listen to what they say. you'd learn alot. you got your diploma, now is when you get your education.

[noiretextatique]

28. i am so sick of your bullshit, carlos

as i have told you many times before, you need to check yourself. have you considered that YOU might be a part of the problem? i might add...if white people had the good sense to vote democratic in as high numbers as do african-americans, we wouldn't be in this mess right now. perhaps you should register voters in aventura.

[jiacinto]

29. I am sick of your bullshit too

What do you do? Oh I foget you rationalize the Greens all day and attack Democrats.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[jiacinto]

37. How dare you call me a racist

How dare you? You are one clear demogague. I guess that everything that you don't agree with must be "racist".

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

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[noiretextatique]

45. you will never get an apology...you earned the title

and you seem intent on retaining it...so congratulations!

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[noiretextatique]

48. that's projection, dear

try reading over your disgusting and sickening comments, and look in the mirror at who wrote them.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

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[KG]

53. jeez, Karen, why do you bother?

carlos will either get it or he won't. he'll probably have to learn a few hard lessons before he answers the clue phone.

then again he might not.

[noiretextatique]

71. hey KG

i think he needs to be challenged every time he does one of his "black poeple are scary" numbers. it seems to be a habit.

[KG]

85. nah. it's been pretty clear for some time where he's coming from

it's the stealth conservatives on DU that need to have the light shown on them. a better use of your time energy and smarts.

:hi:

[noiretextatique]

87. point taken

:hi: now that i'm not as pissed...i see what you mean. thanks :loveya:

[KG]

96. well, of course i'm right

i'm a white guy in america! :spank:

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[gully]

60. bwa ha ha ha ha ha

You got it Carlos!

[KG]

32. see, Karen?

there isn't much doubt the folks on the street pick up his condescending vibes.

[noiretextatique]

33. no doubt, my friend

:puke:

[jiacinto]

39. Who the hell are you to judge me

Spend 7 to 8 hours a day in the sun of Miami and then come back with your self-righteous attitude.

[noiretextatique]

44. it's your attitude, not your time

nice try, mr. martyr. and aren't you looking for another job?

[jiacinto]

46. I have shown a good attitude out there

I resent you, I really do. You should apologize to me.

How dare you make an unfair and disgusting accusation like that?

I am doing more than 90% of the population and all you do is write in a condascending, bigoted, self-righteous, and judgmental fashion.

[noiretextatique]

51. you really ARE clueless, aren't you?

it doesn't matter how much time you devote to something if your attitude is as condescending as is yours. this is not the first time you have been taken to task about your attitude by a black DU member...is it? it is not...perhaps that should be a clue for you.

[jiacinto]

55. .

Again you have no right to call me a racist. And you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Tinoire]

64. Actually Carlos- You should be ashamed

that the only time the Democratic Party ever thinks of Black people is when you guys need our votes.

For three years you have shown nothing but condescension for our concerns and refused to even consider the points made by Black poster after Black poster.

I am GLAD you are getting this walloping education out on the streets because maybe then you're realize that you were a condescending &*#@~ and didn't know jack-shit about Black people, or our concerns, or our absolute disgust with the machinery of which the Democratic Party is a part.

Maybe now you'll appreciate all the effort that Sharpton and Jesse Jackson put into registering Black voters and delivering that vote to Gore/Liebernan when they hadn't earned it.

And maybe now you'll understand that Nader didn't steal anything and that people are simply disgusted with the choices you're pushing.

I applaud you, really I do, for getting out there but it won't be easy. Like the Democratic Party, you haven't listened and you don't have a clue how to get through to disillusioned people now. The kindest advice I can give you, if you want to avoid beating your head against a wall, is to focus on people in Aventura, and let people, who are more in touch with the disenfranchised masses, like the Leftists and the Greens, take care of those areas.

If I use the posts you've made on DU throughout the years as an indication of how you approach them/us, I assure you, my sister, Noiretblu is right. You won't get through because you are part of "that other America" that doesn't have a clue as to how racist it really is.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

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[Tinoire]

67. Naw- I don't hate all White People

Most of my blood is white. What I do hate are racists though- somehow the racist gene didn't get through.

Go figure :shrug: Maybe it's some sort of a racial flaw? Some weird genetic mutation?

Nice try about Nader though. Shows how clueless you still are... Think about it as you walk those scary streets with those scary people who are too stupid to understand that you've come to save them.


On edit: For the record, despite Carlos' hysterical, paranoid accusations, I have always been a Democrat, always voted Democrat, and never worked for anyone but a Democrat but if you don't tow Carlos' Centrist philosophy and refuse to bury in your head in the quick-sand while you blame Nader and the Greens, then you are a hated supporter of Carlos' boogeyman. What a sad world. If enough people think and act like him, we will continue to alienate voters we could so easily have counted on.

[KG]

77. a truly pathetic post.

even by your standards.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

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[KG]

79. yawn.

:boring:

[jiacinto]

80. yawn back

nt

[KG]

83. be straight up, carlos

you don't really have a post graduate degree.

coz if this is the kind of debating skills you learned:

>>>Why don't you just admit that you are a Green who hates the Democratic Party? Why don't you just admit that you hate all white people? Maybe Norietblu could also admit that too so that you all can be finally honest about where you stand once and for all? <<<

you should ask for your money back.

even the teen-age DUers never post drivel like that.

edited per Tinoires humble request.

[noiretextatique]

91. amazing, isnt't it?

on so many levels...hard to know where to begin. i wonder how many times i have to say i voted for gore :eyes: and that i am not the one who makes racist comments, while expecting immunity from being accurately indentified as a _ _ _ _ _ _, and expecting the same type of *wink*/*nudge* privileged immunity from said comments as do trent lott, and others. some of us know we have to walk our talk.

[Tinoire]

95. Oh please, please, please

Please don't mention their names in the same sentence, paragraph or thread. Those are two such wonderful posters that I hate to see their names even mentioned in the same breath! :) Those two have done more to contribute to harmony and advancing progressive causes that I am eternally grateful to them. Same thing with Darranar, Egnever, Sasquatch and LeftistRebel (sorry to anyone I left out).

It's a good thing some candidates recognize the need to shift money away from war-mongering institutions and put it towards education because our system really is broken and too many diplomas are not worth the paper they're printed on.

Such drivel merely disredits the poster and his/her posts- which is a good thing :)

[KG]

97. ok, i'll remove their names

and put them here.

Sean Reynolds! the young socialist! :)

JohnKleeb - DUer of the year in my humble opinion.! :)

[Tinoire]

100. lol! I love your style! n/t

[Iverson]

108. hmmmmm

Perhaps you are never, ever wrong on an issue. What do you think?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. I Would Guess Most Of The Folks Who Live In Aventura Are Jewish

so they would be reliable Democratic voters but not as reliable as African Americans...

[Tinoire]

98. I think the point of mentioning Aventura

wasn't for that but because we're being regaled with a tale of martyrism trying to register Black voters by someone who's has made posts about being scared in the poorer parts of town (Black Baltimore for instance) though he claims to know the concerns and issues of Black voters well enough to speak for them. Carlos penned a poem to Aventura the other day and how his soul yearned for it and yearned to live there. That, I think is whence that reference.

We pander so much to get votes that now we're worried about both the Jewish vote and the Black vote. Oh and the Progressive vote, and the Swing vote... Wow, we may be in serious trouble because people want clear answers now with no waffling. Unfortunately for the candidates running, the internet is documenting their every statement and they can no longer promise everything to everyone.

This election is going to be like walking through a minefield for most candidates.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

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[Tinoire]

136. Where is the bullying or the intimidation in that post?

Honestly Carlos, I am beginning to wonder if you're not a tad bit paranoid. The first clue was this statement
People laugh at me, look at me weird, and snicker at me

The second clue is this post. I ask you

Were you or were you not scared &%9less on the streets of Baltimore with all those Black people?

Were you of were you not shocked at the squalor and poverty?

Have you now or have you ever related to the concerns of Black people?

Did you or did you not pen a yearning poem to Aventura just a week or two ago in the Lounge?

Where is the arrogance and where is the intimidation?

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

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[Tinoire]

155. Baltimore

Beat-up little seagull
On a marble stair
Tryin' to find the ocean
Lookin' everywhere

Hard times in the city
In a hard town by the sea
Ain't nowhere to run to
There ain't nothin' here for free

Hooker on the corner
Waitin' for a train
Drunk lyin' on the sidewalk
Sleepin' in the rain

And they hide their faces
And they hide their eyes
'Cause the city's dyin'
And they don't know why

Oh, Baltimore
Man, it's hard just to live
Oh, Baltimore
Man, it's hard just to live, just to live

Get my sister Sandy
And my little brother Ray
Buy a big old wagon
Gonna haul us all away

Livin' in the country
Where the mountain's high
Never comin' back here
'Til the day I die

Oh, Baltimore
Man, it's hard just to live
Oh, Baltimore
Man, it's hard just to live, just to live

Nina Simone

(first heard that song in a smoky lounge in W. Baltimore, but no, I wasn't writing a book- just talking with people and listening to them ;))

[jiacinto]

157. Then why don't you move to W Baltimore now

with your family if you think it's so great?

[Tinoire]

162. Been there, done that

and had the time of my life. Maybe when I go home for the holidays, I'll round up some old friends to go register a few voters ;)

Where do you think I learned so much about poverty and issues that affect poor Black Americans?

Must be my arrogance that protects me from being irrelevant back in the hood. Well that and my "Free Mumia" bumper sticker.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

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[jiacinto]

38. Who the hell are you to judge me

And no I don't show a contemptous attitude. What the hell are you doing? Are you spending 6 to 8 hours a day in the hot heat of Miami trying to register voters? I would highly doubt it.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

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[Isome]

50. I lived in Miami for a decade.

Just where have you tried to register Black people to vote, which area(s), and with what organization(s)? What are the names of some of those people you're working with? Or, have you taken it upon yourself to go out and register people all by your lonesome?

I remember the NAACP head in Miami, they have a continual voter registration drive. You aren't working with them by any chance are ya'?

I don't believe you're telling the truth, not at all.

[jiacinto]

56. No

I am registering all people, not just blacks. I was just recounting the experiences I had with trying to register people to vote at a community college campus in North Dade Coutny. With black specifically I ran into the problems above. Black women are the most willing to register--in many cases they had to browbeat their boyfriends into registering.

I am telling the truth. I am working for a non-profit organization.

[Isome]

58. MDCC...Miami-Dade Community College

Is that what you're talking about? They have campuses throughout the area, including a continuing education center inside Cutler Ridge Mall, and campuses in Kendall and all the way up near Opa-Locka/Hialeah.

In any event, your attitude towards Black people is insulting based on the many different posts you've made. I don't doubt others react to it, if in fact you are trying to get them to register.

[jiacinto]

61. I don't act in an insulting fashion

If people think I offend them here than I am sorry.

[jiacinto]

62. Kendall is hard

Security asked me and my coworker to leave.

[Tinoire]

70. Hmmmm

You didn't happen to extol the virtues of Lieberman and how liberal he is or go into one of your rants about McKinney being a racist did you?

Or did you maybe slip up and say something stupid like "Yeah, but Sharpton is unelectable"?

[jiacinto]

75. No I didn't mention that at all

nt

[Tinoire]

66. So let me get this right Isome

so far there are 3 of us "Black folks" telling Carlos but Carlos still insists he knows better :shrug:

Just want to make sure I'm not hallucinating...

I know "some people" here have stated that "Black people have to vote Democratic because we rely on the government for services and protection. What I'd like to know is who will protect us from that other America that's so blind to our needs and concerns? The government?

Centrist Democrats have sold tons of Blacks down the river to win a few swing voters and now they want it all? Go figure :shrug:

:think:.... :think:....
:think:....
:think:....

I know! :bounce: :bounce: Maybe the Centrists could send Harold Ford Jr to impress and invigorate Black voters. If he's not too afraid to mix with real Black people that is.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

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[Tinoire]

99. I'm just glad we have our own voices

to counter that and not let people mis-represent us.

[Karenina]

101. There are times

while reading or skimming over posts from certain long term "members" (please consider other dictionary references) that the term "stealth racist" simply pops up and sticks in my brain. I can't imagine why, particularly when it's SO OBVIOUS, at least to me. But I will defer to anyone who calls me "hypersensitive." :silly:

[KG]

107. (please consider other dictionary references)

LOL! :)

[noiretextatique]

145. karenina, isome, tinoire, and KG are so kind

but alas, i am not charitable...i just call just call a _ _ _ _ _ _a _ _ _ _ _ _ :hi:

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

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[KG]

115. mods - please do not remove carlos's post

i do not consider carlos calling me a name a personal attack.

more like an honor. :)

thank you.

[Iverson]

116. Was that really necessary?

If you felt unjustly attacked, then using the alert function would have been a better strategy than legitimizing the attack by adopting its form.

I realize that you may not believe me for reasons we've covered before, but think about it.

[jiacinto]

117. KG has been personally attacking for a long time

I finally fought back for once.

[Iverson]

118. you ignored my point

... and while that consistency is in its way kind of charming, you seem to have overlooked that hitting the alert button is also a way of fighting back, once that does not legitimize a strategy by co-opting it.

Do you understand that point?

[jiacinto]

120. I do hit the alert button

but somehow KG's offensive posts always stay. So what recourse do I have after that?

[Iverson]

125. two or more

You can ask for a clarification.
You can let it drop.
You can respond with sharp criticism that does not reach into personal attack.
You can respond by setting your own good example.

Or you can ensure the loss of any moral high ground to which you might aspire by adopting the same tactics that you condemned in your opponent immediately prior.

I get the feeling that you are arguing from inconceivability, which does not make me confident that you have understood my point.

[Tinoire]

128. Taking a hint?

Examining your own behavior instead of constantly calling for mommy to come bail you out?

There are quite a few incredibly offensive posts in this thread.

I have to often fill out the forms for people and then just have them sign because they are "too lazy" to do it themselves.

Did it ever cross your mind that maybe, just maybe some people can't fucking read? Why don't you go visit some of the schools in that neighborhood to understand the relevance of cutting the Pentagon's budget so that you can explain to them that there are some progressive candidates in the race who understand their concerns?

Sheesh... Blaming Black people for being too lazy to fill out a registration form. And you say the condescension doesn't come across!

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

133. Then just who are you blaming?

You're certainly not blaming the real cause of this problem. You go to great lengths to ignore it.

I am constantly surprised at how persecuted you feel.

Keep banging your head against a wall.

Hint: That wall isn't about to budge.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

137. Sigh

Kind of like that irrelevant 2.7% that has such an importance that it torments you to this day.

You're embarrassing yourself. As a matter of fact it's becoming embarrassing even discoursing with you. You've attacked 4 people in this thread and made more offensive statements about Black Americans.

If I am so irrelevant, I would suggest you put me on ignore.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

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[noiretextatique]

149. hey carlos, tinoire is a black voter, like the ones you claim

you want to register. can you see how you condescending attitude might turn off people just like her...and me? we are not important, according to you. again, your words show your true colors.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

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[jiacinto]

152. Well that settles it

The trio of KG, Tinoire, and Norietblu attack me because I attempted to register voters. And I am "racist" because I am doing that.

I wonder how many in that trio above do anything but surf at DU.

[noiretextatique]

154. your words speak volumes

and i don't have to call you a _ _ _ _ _ _ _.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noiretextatique]

158. you forgot "divisive"...your stock adjective for people like me

and tinoire and isome ...and maxine waters, cynthia mckinney, al sharpton.
yeah...it's just a 'coincidence' :eyes:

[Tinoire]

121. Too bad we can't run a poll

I think the results would... astound you.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

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[Tinoire]

138. Sounds more like a hissy fit

and extremely unbecoming.

Maybe you should make an EEOC complaint.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

151. Sigh

:eyes:

Crap, Drivel, Black concerns, Crap, Drivel, "too lazy" too fill out a registration form, Crap, Drivel, 2.79%

:shrug:

Maybe if you didn't consider it crap and drivel, you might have more success reaching out to Black voters ;)

[Iverson]

153. Here ye go.

The fool and the wise man don't see the same tree.

[Tinoire]

159. lol

Must be all those green leaves!

[Isome]

113. insists he knows better

But isn't that always the way? Your experiences, insight, and/or general observations aren't valid if they don't conform to their own. *pbbbbbbbbbbbbttt*

It's more than a little disappointing to find those sentiments here! I went 'round & 'round with a woman about the overall goodness of the party, and the need to get involved in it, lest it continue to remember us only at election time. She was adamant that the members of the two parties (GOP & Dems) were, for all intents and purposes, the same, so there's no use in bothering with either of them. This is a very smart woman, and I was in awe of her intelligence, but I kept going at it until the discussion became so heated it bordered on hostile.

Then, I started posting to DU and encountered the very type of people she told me dominated the parties: those who see the Black voter mainly in terms of negative stereotypes, and the paternalistic liberals who treat and respond to the group as recalcitrant children who need to be told what's good for them, and insist on interpreting their realities for them.

...makes me wanna' holler, throw up both my hands. ;-)

[Tinoire]

165. It is indeed disappointing!

Holler all you want- we're hollering right along with you frustrated that the blind have eyes yet can not see!

I'll tell you, the Greens are all over these neighborhoods and not having any problems which is a little frustrating for people like us who still cling to the same man who invited us to the damn party but left us at the door so many times yet still expects us to eagerly put on our Sunday finery and come running the minute he snaps his fingers.

Damn. And it's obviously not getting any better. For Sharpton to get up there and put it that plainly and people still don't understand?

How can we ever combat that attitude?

[Isome]

166. And I know some people who are Green or are going Green.

Reading this helps me understand their decision, even though I wouldn't choose it for myself. On the other hand, that my post was deleted while his still stands makes me think all types of unkind things about the party's membership.

I just need to get over to blackcommentator for some intellectual sustenance so that I can put it in perspective. ;-)

[Tinoire]

167. Yeah.. I understood that decision a long time ago

and hope we can stem that exodus but we can't do that until we address the disenchantment.

It's really sad. I don't know what else to really say about it. And the worse is that it's not just Blacks. I was talking to someone at work about the primaries the other day and was floored when this Ph.D. Nobel Prize-nominated scientist told me he hadn't voted in 20 years and had no intention of voting now because it always comes choice between Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-dumber.

Just look at the original post in this thread. Did you click on the links? Kucinich is leading with the issues and the interest yet the corporate media keeps marginalizing him and people parrot after them that Kucinich is unelectable.

They keep pretending Sharpton doesn't exist except as an entertainment value! Really, this could be so discouraging... but for one last election, I am going to hope and work tirelessly.

Glad you like Black Commentator; they've got some excellent articles that don't mince many words!

http://www.lifeweaver.com/carryabigsticker.htm

[Isome]

169. "entertainment value"

Whenever Sharpton's name is mentioned, even in left-leaning online magazines (The Nation & American Prospect come to mind), it's usually followed by: lively, entertaining, crowd pleasing, etc. It's a blatant way of camoflauging the veracity of his message. It works, too.

I rarely watch network television, but my mom does, alot. When I told her about Kucinich last month, she said never heard of him. *holding my head in my hands* But, she did know about Clark (she didn't express any support). I had to explain to her that if he got the same free-of-charge exposure that Clark does, she'd have been a convert long ago.

Re: blackcommentator

Ford & Gamble are two of the most concise & insightful writers on the web. I used to have a link to them on our board, but since we've decided to change the layout, permanent links are on hold.

[Tinoire]

170. Sad comment from your mom

I get that a lot too but I'm glad it's not stopping us :) It's clear we can't rely on the media to be fair. The media will endorse and push whoever corporate America wants- it's absolutely sickening.

What board do you have? If you don't want to post the link here, will you PM it to me?

Peace :)

[KG]

10. that's true only if those groups vote for a progessive candidate.

and there's not progessivism in the democratic party right now.

though, if those groups had a louder voice in the dem. party, there might me more progressive candidates.

[Tinoire]

68. Hmmmm

if those groups had a louder voice in the dem. party, there might me more progressive candidates

How can they? Other people are so presumptuous as to tell those groups what they need and shut up the voices speaking for them.

The corporate media's true function in the American political system was never more clear than in the May 5 edition of the New York Times. Adam Nagourney, a senior political reporter trusted to represent the newspaper's professional values, began his "Political Memo" piece:

The first Democratic presidential debate of the campaign, for all its racket and disarray, served to divide the field into two distinct camps. Each embraced a strikingly different appeal to a party that campaign aides describe as hungry to remove President Bush from office, yet deeply worried about its chances for victory next year.
Nagourney then proceeded to delineate the opposing Democratic camps, comprising six of the nine candidates: Lieberman, Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, Dean and Graham. In over 1,000 words, Nagourney not only failed to once mention the names Al Sharpton, Carole Moseley-Braun or Dennis Kucinich, he did not indicate in any manner that the three candidates existed on the planet Earth! The two Blacks and one lefty white did not rate even a throwaway line about the "others" vying for primary votes. The fact that they lived and breathed was not deemed fit to print - an amazing but honest exposition of the world as it should be in the judgment of the New York Times and corporate media, in general.

ABC's George Stephanopoulos didn't have the Soviet-style option to erase Sharpton, Moseley-Braun and Kucinich from the Columbia, South Carolina broadcast: there was Rev. Al and his hair, rivaling Stephanopoulos' own in grandeur, Moseley-Braun's singular feminine presence, and the insistently specific Kucinich, an exceedingly competent talker. So, the corporate host for the people's election event did the next best thing, relentlessly framing the discussion as if only the views of the six "mainstream" white men counted - the same Chosen Ones that populated Nagourney's narrow Democratic universe.
<snip>

http://www.blackcommentator.com/41/41_issues.html

[KG]

82. well, that's what i'm saying.

we live in the most diverse country on the face of the planet.

but when it come election time, the choice always seems to be between two rich white lawyers.

it's no wonder minorities have given up on the idea of change coming from the ballot box.

can't say as i blame them.

[noiretextatique]

86. this is a HUGE problem

and not just with black voters, but with all voters who don't feel they, their lives, and their issues, are of being addressed by either of the majos parties. this especially true of groups who have been USED as symbols, by both parties, to attract other voters. people may be ill-informed, but they are not stupid. if they KNOW they have no stake in the outcome of an election, in terms of how it will affect their lives, why should they bother to vote? and why would they vote for a party that did little to address the disenfranchisement of voters in 2000? the disinterest is perfectly understandable to me.

[Tinoire]

89. I was re-reading Malcolm X "The Ballot or the Bullet" recently

and really chagrined to see how little has really changed. My only hope for change, for the people, is embodied in people like Kucinich or Sharpton. If any change ever comes from the ballot box, you can bet that ballot box will be burned before any one has time to count those votes.

Peace

The Ballot or the Bullet
Malcolm X
April 3, 1964

<snip>

In this present administration they have in the House of Representatives 257 Democrats to only 177 Republicans. They control two-thirds of the House vote. Why can't they pass something that will help you and me? In the Senate, there are 67 senators who are of the Democratic Party. Only 33 of them are Republicans. Why, the Democrats have got the government sewed up, and you're the one who sewed it up for them. And what have they given you for it? Four years in office, and just now getting around to some civil-rights legislation. Just now, after everything else is gone, out of the way, they're going to sit down now and play with you all summer long -- the same old giant con game that they call filibuster. All those are in cahoots together. Don't you ever think they're not in cahoots together, for the man that is heading the civil-rights filibuster is a man from Georgia named Richard Russell. When Johnson became president, the first man he asked for when he got back to Washington, D.C., was "Dicky" -- that's how tight they are. That's his boy, that's his pal, that's his buddy. But they're playing that old con game. One of them makes believe he's for you, and he's got it fixed where the other one is so tight against you, he never has to keep his promise.

<snip>
So it's time in 1964 to wake up. And when you see them coming up with that kind of conspiracy, let them know your eyes are open. And let them know you got something else that's wide open too. It's got to be the ballot or the bullet. The ballot or the bullet. If you're afraid to use an expression like that, you should get on out of the country, you should get back in the cotton patch, you should get back in the alley. They get all the Negro vote, and after they get it, the Negro gets nothing in return. All they did when they got to Washington was give a few big Negroes big jobs. Those big Negroes didn't need big jobs, they already had jobs. That's camouflage, that's trickery, that's treachery, window-dressing. I'm not trying to knock out the Democrats for the Republicans, we'll get to them in a minute. But it is true -- you put the Democrats first and the Democrats put you last.

<snip>

http://www.indiana.edu/~rterrill/Text-BorB.html

[jiacinto]

90. Quite sad that you must use a speech that is 40 years old

to attack Democrats with. It is quite pathetic that you need to cite something that is 40 years to claim that somehow Democrats have "ignored" African-Americans.

[KG]

93. it's amazing how little you know about anything.

and why you insist on proving it time and again here is beyond comprehension.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KG]

103. yawn

:boring:

[jiacinto]

106. Why don't you admit that you don't like me

And that posts against me are personal?

[Isome]

144. Hold on a second...

Don't tell me you clicked the alert button on my first post, the one where I called your attitude "contemptuous"? Don't tell me you clicked the alert button on that post and had it removed? Don't tell me you clicked the alert button on that, and then proceeded to call someone an "asshole" and accuse them of personally attacking you, without considering your attack on them?

I can't believe moderators would remove my post and leave his. This is not a good thing.

[Tinoire]

119. Nonesense

KG didn't make any personal attacks. He simply called you out on some incredibly stupid statements. If you don't like that, quit making stupid statements.

Your first post for instance: "I am too lazy to sign it"

I'll wager with 20:1 odds there was no such horse in the race and that that's just your bitterness showing because you thought you'd go down there and people would come flocking to you to register Democratic because you'd suddenly shown them the light. How can you shown them the light when you can't even find the light-switch in the room they're in?

Every 4 years, people just like you show up with the same crappy papers and the same boogey-man story. Those tactics don't work because the boogey-man has been in those neighborhoods so long that this is not news and you're not gonna get people all worked up and sympathetic because the economic woes they've dealt with all their lives are now affecting White America. No matter how much you may disagree with that statement that's exactly how they see it.

[jiacinto]

122. No, Tinoire, people did say that

As much as you don't want to believe that is a response I got. I know you don't want to believe, but that did happen.

You, KG, and noiretblu have been extremely offensive and insulting toward me. You all should be ashamed of yourselves.

[Tinoire]

131. Bull

I went out of my way to applaud you for going down there. Your attitude towards Black people on this thread and in the past is what is offensive.

The most unkind feeling I have right now is simply a sad one of
"We TOLD you so; have been telling you so for years".

I've even told you how to approach them but you can't do it because you're like the Democratic Party- you only want their vote and give so little of a rat's ass about their issues that you can't even connect with them.

The proof of why the Dems have lost so many Black votes is staring you in the face and you won't even consider it. You'd rather stick to your preconceived notions. Votes are earned not given!

You don't understand the disgust because you're being pig-headed in the belief that "Blacks have nowhere to go but the Democratic Party so we'll get their vote".

Think Sharpton Carlos, think Sharpton! White America invited that poor little Black girl to the dance so many times and never even showed to pick her up tht
------------------------------------------
<snip>

Democrats who shared in the laughter, were not smiling after Sharpton turned his rhetorical guns on them.

“I think we need to take the Democratic Party home to our daddies and discuss marriage or a breakup,” he said, evoking both laughter and applause. “You know, the only thing I never got over in life is I took a young lady to a dance when I was in high school and she left with somebody else.

And that’s what the Democrats, some, have done to the Black community.”

“We helped take you to the dance and you leave with Right-wingers, you leave with people that you say are swing voters, you leave with people that are antithetical to our history and antithetical to our interests.

I am saying in 2004, if we take you to the party, you’re going home with us or we’re not taking you to the party.”

http://www.columbuspost.com/news/editorial/editorial01.html

It hurts us now huh? Now it's a tragedy? Now it may be too late.

Our only hope is that a really Progressive candidate is nominated and that the Black Muslims and respected Black leaders like Sharpton, Jackson and McKinney get in there and hustle to deliver that vote once again but I think Sharpton made it quite clear

in 2004, if we take you to the party, you’re going home with us or we’re not taking you to the party.”

Trust me, he wasn't making that shit up. He was speaking for Black people. Only one of you is right and my money is on Sharpton because he listens.

[jiacinto]

132. That line was said to me

You may not want to believe, but it did happen. Again you hate the Democratic Party. So why don't you admit that you are a Green once and for all and save us the endless debates?

All you do here is attack Democrats all day. As for Democrats "losing the black vote," you are deluded. Why are they still voting 9-1 Democratic?

Again you are just a Green trying to "heighten the contradictions". And your arguments about the Democrats not caring about blacks is patently dishonest.

Why aren't you honest about who you are?

[Iverson]

134. (ahem)

It is rather clear to me, a Green, that Tinoire is a Democrat who does not hate the party but rather loves it enough to try to stop it committing self-injury.

Projecting dishonesty into someone else in order to discover it there is a poor argumentative strategy.

Also, your understanding of Greens could use some work, but that's a project for another time. Someone is trying to get through to you, and by the most amazing coincidence, you are having trouble getting through to people in the same cohort!

Should you listen? What answer makes sense?

[Tinoire]

142. Why would I "admit" I'm a Green

I'm working a straight Dem who's never voted anything but Dem and is working her Black ass off to register Dem voters for Dem primaries and at the same time talking to them about 2 great Dem candidates.

Why on earth would I "admit" I'm a Green- not that there's anything wrong with that. And I know that's what bugs you- the fact that not everyone feels a need to demonize and persecute the Greens.

Now about my arguments about the Democrats not caring about blacks is patently dishonest

what part of

I'm straight
I'm all right
I don't want to fill out no (sic) form
I am too lazy to sign it
I don't care if I am registered to vote
I don't vote
I don't have time
Voting is against my religion
I don't want to sign anything
I don't sign things

are you not understanding?

[jiacinto]

146. It's obvious

All you do is attack Democrats all the time. It's obvious what your true intentions are.

[Iverson]

148. no, the opposite was obvious

I pointed it out to you (above). I turned out to be correct. Against the evidence, you insist that your fantasy is correct and the evidence is not.

This is magical thinking.

Bush engages in magical thinking when he reaches conclusions about the personalities of Vladmir Putin or Ariel Sharon by looking into their eyes. I urge you to abandon that model.

[gully]

160. True...

"Every 4 years, people just like you show up with the same crappy papers and the same boogey-man story. Those tactics don't work because the boogey-man has been in those neighborhoods so long that this is not news and you're not gonna get people all worked up and sympathetic because the economic woes they've dealt with all their lives are now affecting White America. No matter how much you may disagree with that statement that's exactly how they see it.

This is very true, but with Republicans in office, the chances of people having any hope is obliterated. I grew up poor (on welfare) and lived among the poorest areas of the inner city.

Democrats have programs in place to help poor of any color with child care assistance, higher education, after school programs, head start, health care programs etc... these programs "directly" effect the poor. They are disapearing to finance Haliburtons profit in Iraq and tax cuts for those making more then 1,000,000.00 don't you think people care about that?

I know I sure as hell do.

[Tinoire]

168. Thank you Gully and you are absolutely correct

which is why I'm still with the Dems but you have to admit, those programs really are bread-crumbs when you consider how much money is wasted regardless of which party is in power.

Personally, I'll vote for the bread-crumbs over nothing but I do that as one of those better-off Liberals who like you, cares about the disenfranchised. Regardless of how I vote, I do understand the disenchantment of the people who say they've been let down too many times.

I think the problem is that by the time we realize how bad it is, because it finally hits us, they've already been suffering for years.

When my French in-laws came to visit 6 years ago, they were shocked by the number of homeless people we had. Right now, I go into an absolute frenzy when I see the increased numbers and see working families stand in line at the soup kitchen. It's obscenely worse now and you're absolutely correct that it would be better than under the Republicans but the problem is getting people convinced of that and getting them to believe that the game isn't rigged.

Good luck to us is all I hope.

[noiretextatique]

94. c'mon...YOU know this strategy works

you've stated several times that clinton's pathetic 'confrontation' with sistah souljah was pivotal moment in his campaign, as pathetic as that reality is...you know it's true.

[Tinoire]

104. Naw- what's really sad, a tragedy even

is that 40 years later that speech still resonates with Black America.

I am not surprised that that ironic subtlety just swooshed right past you.

[KG]

112. irony and subtlety appreciation totally escape carlos.

his mind is closed, Tin.

hopefully that isn't a permanent condition, cause the boy has potential.

[Isome]

123. 40 years later that speech still resonates with Black America

That he doesn't realize it is further proof that he's out of touch and, either his alleged attempts to register Black voters are fabricated, or were sabotaged by that nasty attitude towards the pitiable recipients of his charity.

[Iverson]

110. How about Orwell?

His essay "Politics and the English Language" is quite a bit more than 40 years old. Do I understand correctly that if it is used against some groups then it's invalid on the basis of age, but not if it's used against other groups?

That is the implication of your objection. Let's be clear.

[KG]

92. change won't come from the ballot box - never has.

choice at the ballot box reflect changes started by grass roots activism.

the civil rights movements, labor movements, evironmental movements didn't just show up at the ballot box one day. those issues got before the electorate after years of activism.

[Isome]

127. grass roots activism

Thank you for saying that KG. I try to tell people all the time that all politics is local! To effect change you'll have to start at home. National elections are icing on the cake; the real work, however, is getting local politics in order because the national scene is merely a mirror of what's happening locally.

[gully]

161. Two rich white 'male' lawyers...n/t

[gully]

163. What is progressive as far as your concerned?

What is your own personal criteria?

[chaumont58]

18. It seems so obvious

Economically disadvantaged people have only one way to affect politics, their votes. But, election after election, they can not be motivated to spend the hour or so to vote. There are more poor people and lower middle class people than rich. If they vote every election, they have a large effect. The get-out-the-vote efforts should be high on the Democratic party's to-do list every election. But, it think it gets only lip service in most cases.

[TacticalPeek]

20. "Great numbers"

I have a persisting belief that if the general population votes in greater numbers, progressives win. I believe that there have been studies that show that generally, the higher the turnout, the higher the dem wins.

[Liberator_Rev]

21. Democrats are going to LOSE many black, brown voters,

just as they have lost many working class whites if they don't wise up and do battle with the G.O.P. for the conscience of Christian voters, who represent 70% of the electorate.
That is what "Liberals Like Christ" are all about.

This is what Democrats ought to be promoting, especially to African American and Hispanic communities: http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Democrats .

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

22. amen, Rev!

"Democrats are going to LOSE many black, brown voters just as they have lost many working class whites if they don't wise up and do battle with the G.O.P. for the conscience of Christian voters, who represent 70% of the electorate."

absolutely

[gully]

63. We have to give people a reason to vote by pointing out the differences

and the benefit to having a change in the current administration. The Bush administration has no doubt effected our lives in a detrimental fashion. But, many people don't understand how the man in the OO effects our everyday lives and the lives of those around the globe.

It's up to us to educate our fellow countrymen/women in ways people of all colors/backrounds can relate to.

Politics is confusing shit, even for those that are highly educated/interested in the subject.

Let's break it down for people in practical ways!? i.e. 6500 jobs lost per __, cost per family to pay back federal deficit, etc...

I seriously think DU-ers should/could get to work on flyers that do just that. We talked about that before.

[noiretextatique]

69. damn, gully...i agree with you

:thumbsup: this is exactly what needs to happen. the flyer is a GREAT idea. i would be willing to work on that project.

[gully]

72. Well shit, there's a first time for everything....

:thumbsup:

I'll kick the old thread?

[noiretextatique]

74. hey...we can argue all day and all night

but we share the ultimate goal of defeating bush, inc...and that's all that *really* matters. peace.

[gully]

76. Glad we share that most important goal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=333758

The original thread is linked above. We decided (in the end) to blow off the idea as move on is doing much the same thing. But, I think we can still try to educate americans on the effects of the bush admin? Moveon is partisian, and that's fine. But, I'd like the flyers/info to come across as practical, and speak to everyone regardless of political affiliation.

Anyone interested, let me know your thoughts? Perhaps we can do our own DU "activism" thing after all!?

I am a firm believer in being productive and directing our anger at Shrub in a postitive way. I think we have too many talented pissed off people here to let it go to waste.

Note: There is a thread in activism on the subject as well.

~Peace to you as well.

PS, I'm off to do some baking with my daughter, I'll check back sometime soon...

[Cheswick2.0]

105. Good Lord, this thread is painful

Maybe we can agree to disagree on certain points, like Nader etc....? Maybe we can stop being so defensive and try to listen to those our attitudes offend. Carlos, yes, you still have some things to learn. Listen to the people who deal with these issues on a daily basis. Stop being so stubborn and defensive.

Finally, maybe we can forgive people in their early twenties for not having all their ideas perfected yet?

I know who Carlos works for, I know how they have fucked him over and none of you would put up with it. I certainly wouldn't. Carlos isn't going to give you details in public, get over it. Is that a reason to accuse him of lying? Try giving someone the benefit of the doubt, once, twice, a million times. That is what we do as liberal, mature, adult humanitarians ... isn't it?

I know I have very little room to lecture anyone, so I am sorry to sound like a biddy, but good lord this thread was painful.

[Iverson]

114. some good points

I give jiacinto my wholehearted support for getting out there and pounding the pavement, and any other time that his argument is sound. I do not give him my wholehearted support when we have different preferences in an argument.

Credit where credit is due is pretty basic, whether the subject is jiacinto or Malcolm X. To filter the discovery of truth through partisanship is immature. I sure wish that more posters would catch on.

Therefore, Cheswick, I agree with you.

edited typo

[jiacinto]

139. Thank you, Cheswick

I appreciate your post.

[gully]

164. Agreed. n/t

[noiretextatique]

171. the work is admirable

however, youth doesn't excuse the attitude...it does explain some of the arrogance though. many people have a lot to UNLEARN in order to perfect ideas about people of color, women, gays and lesbians, etc...some of them are democrats.

there is no shame in that because none of us are immune to the racist, sexist, homophobic, etc., messages and imagery that are part of socialization in this culture. in a perverse and tragic sense...it's natural :eyes:

what is shameful is denial, because all these "isms" serve only to divide and conquer. all of us need to take personal responsibility for ridding ourselves of attitudes that serve the interests of the rw. call it spiritual work or psychological work or political work...it's personal unlearning work that needs to be done by all of us. it's important work because even democrats aren't immune to rw manipulation of certain "isms."

[Cheswick2.0]

109. PS.... I agree whole heartedly with the original post

voter apathy is a problem in all kinds of demographic groups yet we forget to honor the coalition.

[qanda]

172. The first caller on C-span this morning said,

That Blacks are always used whenever it is convenient for the Democratic Party and I have to agree with him. I think many Black people are getting sick of this trend (return to the base stuff). Why do you have to return to the base-- You should have never left the base! Stop taking the Black vote for granted and for goodness sake lose some of the far left rhetoric-- it scares people away.