HOLY CRAP- WHY MODERATES WANT TO KEEP THE FILIBUSTER

[Guaranteed]

I can't believe I didn't think of this before.

Alright, imagine the filibuster got thrown out, for judges or anything else. Now the Repukes only need 51 votes to get anything passed. Where does that put the centrists? In a powerless position. The centrists WANT a 60 vote threshold on these controversial issues because THAT'S how they keep their power. The bigger the threshold, the more power they hold with the swing vote.

So- the moderate Repukes' power was being threatened just as much as the Democrats (or nearly so) with the threat against the filibuster. Do you think that the moderate Repukes were REALLY willing to give up THEIR power when it came to the judicial filibuster? No way.

That's why they did what they did. It wasn't a presidential run. It was to keep themselves relevent.

[benburch]

1. By Jove! I think you've got it! nt

[Guaranteed]

2. So why are we even worried about the moderate Repukes caving

on the nuke option? It's their asses, too.

[benburch]

5. Fear.

We know that the GOP will do crazy things like deposing one of their own in a primary just for revenge. And we know that they have the funding to trash virtually anybody with negative Rove-esque tactics.

If a man is afraid enough, he will act against his own interests.

[Guaranteed]

6. This also explains why Frist hasn't gone all OUT with the nuke option.

He's made it fairly clear that this is just for the judges. If he tried to totally get rid of it, the centrists would go apeshit on him.

[meegbear]

3. Exact-amundo, oh great one!

They were discussing that this morning on my local news radio station. They're not as dumb as they look.

[Guaranteed]

4. LOL no SHIT John Warner won't vote for the nuke option.

Shiiiiit, man.

This is just simple math.

[KharmaTrain]

7. Well Said...

I've stated that point several times. The power eventually flows from the center. We can go throw extremist swings, but it's the moderates and centrists that usually are the ones who have to get the tough deals done.

There definitely needs to be 3/5 and 2/3 thresholds. They weren't designed by accident. They have a purpose and what makes this form of representative government truly that. So few on the right (and I'll say far left, too) don't understand that this system isn't winner-take-all except under "extraordinary" situations.

What the moderates know...like the rest of us...the far right DIDN'T get a mandate last fall. Real Repugnicans know they snuck by and, while on the rise (or crested some will say), in the south & west, they lost even more ground in the East, Midwest and Far West.

Many of these "compromisers" were from those areas and are minorities in their own right. Not only are they the minority party in most of these states, but they're also a faint voice in the noise that's become their own party. This was more for their survival than we still realize.

[Guaranteed]

8. Yup. Yup.

Now we're getting down to the real goods.

[AnnInLa]

19. Well said to you too!

Now I wish Progressives were in charge of every branch of gov't, but it ain't so. When the mods/centrists declared war on the extremist RW, is was a win for us and a win for Democracy in general. I am not one of the Progressives who want to be a martyr, hoping that the American people will wake up and see the RW extremists for what they are. I don't trust the sheeple that much, so would much rather have the mods/centrists in charge of the Senate. The theo-cons were put on notice....you can't have the Senate. And, if that means that the mod-pukes control the Senate, it's still much better than if the theo-cons controlled it.

[KharmaTrain]

21. "Amen"...LOL

As a Progressive, I'm in 100% agreement with you, and I'm hopeful that a new populist center is developing as the excesses of the right take a larger toll on this country's youth and treasure.

I was looking forward to a showdown. Even if Democrats lost the vote, it would have been a victory if all 45 stood together and forced Repugnicans in the middle to choose sides. This is what made Frist blink. I'm listening to him now pandering to his base...CYA big time. He looks like a whipped puppy dog. LOL.

There's a part of me that says the sheeple are still very much asleep. The theo-cons will continue to push and overplay...they have a willing corporate media that's "discovered" their issues...but I sense their ability to push the political agenda has been greatly damaged for the foreseeable future.

Moderate Repugnicans can't ignore the flood of emails, faxes and communications from back home that religious issues aren't winners and falling poll numbers had a lot to do with this than any sense of true conviction.

McCain looks like a hero today, but tomorrow will vote to confirm Bolton...so go figure.

Cheers!

[dweller]

9. why, that McCain is a GENIUS!

now i understand him saying on NPR this morning "the Dems are spinning this as a win for themselves"...

it's all clear now, yup.

dp

[Guaranteed]

10. Well, we did win.

He needed us to help keep him relevent. :P

[lovuian]

11. Ding Ding Ding Give that Poster a cupie Doll!!!

Your right on it!!! the Centrist have the power now!!!

[merh]

30. The centralist have the power, only if they side with one side or

the other. They are still a small minority than the dems.

This is how the game of politics is played. Chose your camps and chose it wisely, but don't be afraid to pull up stacks should you need.

The important thing is - the filibuster is still viable, I don't care who kept it intact, I am just glad it is still an option (terms like extraordinary be damned).

:patriot:

[Ian David]

12. Another reason: Moderates may sometimes vote with either side

A Moderate may side with Conservatives on one issue and with Liberals on the next.

That means he might get screwed twice as often as a Liberal or a Conservative.

[JerseygirlCT]

13. Yup

And that's good for us and the country, too. To have all moderation run over by a radical right GOP is a scary prospect. The moderates, even when we disagree, can slow that process right down. And will occasionally surprise us in a positive way.

[gollygee]

14. Very good point - you've made me feel much better

we're all so used to getting shat upon all the time that we assume that's always what's happening.

[Guaranteed]

15. Yeah, it hit me like a ton of bricks, too. Brightened up my day.

Those moderate Repukes are in the same boat with US when the fascists try to throw out the filibuster. They were the whole time LOL

:shrug:

Maybe slightly different, because it would take a few of them to make 51. But they could be split.

[Generic Other]

16. Good point!

Machinations on all side.

[dxstone]

17. Which would suggest that the Dems should've stood fast...

Two-party dualism is an important element of the oligarchy we're in; the seeming struggle between the polar opposites has made it possible for them to screw us all for years and years and get away with it; there's always that plausible deniability of "It's not us, it's the OTHER guys who are doin' it, we're on YOUR side!" argument...

The Dems should've stood fast if they wanted to serve the people and the causes they espouse... but this isn't exactly new or heart-breaking behavior on their part.
I DON'T hate the Dem party, but I see a great need for some SERIOUS reform. We need NEW blood; with few exceptions, ALL these bums need to be shown the door...
I feel for Conyers and Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, Kucinich... they must feel like absolute blue monkeys out there...
D

[Guaranteed]

18. There must have been some kind of reason they wanted to

compromise and get an agreement out on paper. Probably the centrist Repukes didn't want to directly oppose the fascists.

[dxstone]

23. My point was...

Had the Democrats, and everyone else who cares at all about this country, stood firm, the neo&theocons' lil' insane gambit, this ridiculous ruse would've been STOPPED IN ITS TRACKS; there would be a backlash, a major loss of face on the part of the fascists, and perhaps a tiny bit of balance might've been restored...
All they had to do was stand pat, and call their bluff...
Jeez, Louise, if this wasn't the one where the Dems were positioned to score a real blow against these over-reaching madmen, and restore a bit of their ol' prestige as a party of CONSEQUENCE, well, shit...
If this wasn't it, I don't know WHAT would be...
D
ps: I FIRMLY BELIEVE that when a lotta this stuff comes down (like when John Kerry suddenly gave up for no apparent reason at all, just like Gore did), there's some loved one, some wife or daughter sitting in a room somewhere with a gun to their head; I'm SURE the opposition isn't above such tactics...
So I agree with you, there probably WAS "some kind of reason"...
After all, you don't have to kidnap EVERYONE'S family; just key people, at key times...
And when you've got millions and millions of dollars in your own personal accounts, why the hell not?
Shit, if I won the lottery?... I'd be building one of those secret mountain cavern fortresses right now, just like a James Bond film; I'd be approving plans for the trapdoor and shark tank thingamabob, and interviewing machine-gun guards for the new collider installation...
If I DO win the lottery, someone should probably keep some tabs on me...
:beer:
POWER, almost GOD-like levels of power vested in the hands of a few tiny, stupid people... and nobody keepin' tabs, no checks, no balance...
THAT'S the problem.

[ToeBot]

20. Not just relevant, In control

They may not be able to pass their own legislative agenda directly, but these 14 members of the "Fringe Coalition" can effectively dictate the out come of any partisan legislation.

[newyawker99]

26. Hi ToeBot!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Bandit]

22. Call it whatever you like but the bottom line is nominees will

go forward for an up or down vote in a Senate where Liberal Democrats are in the minority. GOP gets what they want and Democrats take credit. Makes me want to race out and vote for the Democrats. Well sorry but they lost me. If they won't stand up for principle then they are as unprincipled as the GOP. I would rather go down fighting than to just go down with a whimper. No matter how you look at it the Democratic Party is going down and it is precisely for reasons such as this. Unprincipled and not willing to take a stand and fight. At least the Republicans will fight for their constituents. Right or wrong they will at least put up the good fight. Democrats will deserve their place in History because that is what they are. History.

[MADem]

25. Wow, then you'll be leaving the party, then?

Quite the downer, you!

I'm not going to cry into my milk, instead, I will make cookies and look forward to better days.

The reality is, we say we have a two party system, but we don't -- if you strip away all the horseshit, we have three political foci -- the right, the left, and the middle.

This is a victory for the middle, who have been bullied for far too long by the right. And the left wins as well, simply because the right has crapped on them even worse.

[Blue_Roses]

29. Oh, come on

Sheesh...way over the top...:eyes:

[many a good man]

24. Great theory, but...

Can you give me any examples where these moderates have ever actually voted against their Chimperor?

They can blather on and on about moderation and compromise but its nothing but posturing.

[CWebster]

27. Nah

It was a political strategy by the Right to save face with the public. They got what they wanted without using the nuclear option and ducked the abuse of power charges.

The outcome is still the same. The Right gets its judges, with the added bonus that the Democrats now have to meet some standard of the Right's measure of extreme.

And y'all buy, yet again, the dog and pony show.

[markus]

28. The Club of 100 doesn't go for that lock-step, party line carp

At least, they didn't back when I sat in the Dirksen and Hart buildings. It's a very different beast than the House. Certainly people who agree with Frist are going to allay with him. For now. And those who don't are going to preserve their position.

You've hit the nail squarely on the head. McCain *may* care about his presidential campaign. The other's who aren't running could give a damn about other's presidential nomiations (except as it enters into the fluid dynamics of the Senate at any given moment).

[jayctravis]

31. There are 55 republican senators.

If the 7 from the Gang of 14 defect in a bloc, they lose their simple majority, and 48 is not a breakable tie by Cheney. It's a brilliant check on the majority if the right wing gets too out of hand.

[kentuck]

32. They only have power when they are in a coalition...

Their numbers are not large enough to have any power on their own. Right now, their coalition is actually with the Democratic Party moreso than the "majority" Republican Party, which means that on this one issue, judges and filibusters, the Democrats are the "majority" Party.

[WilliamPitt]

33. Light dawns on marble head

;)

[IrateCitizen]

34. Ummm... that's always been the nature of the Senate...

George Washington likened the House to a hot cup of tea and cold saucer of milk -- extremes on both ends. He likened the Senate to when the cool milk was poured into the hot tea, making it much more drinkable.

The Senate has traditionally been a more centrist, bipartisan chamber of Congress, given much more to moderation. The change has come as there have been significantly more former House members -- especially on the (R) side -- who have jumped from the House to the Senate, bringing their extreme partisanship with them.

McCain and the other 13 were simply acting in the OLD spirit of the Senate, trying to keep it as a voice of moderation.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. Yippee!! The "moderates" win!! And, we get Justice Owen.

Another glorious victory!!