"Defeatist" - the new DU buzzword for saying "Shut the Fuck Up!"

[AVID]

"Your defeatist attitude doesn't help"

I almost sounds like "get over it"

Insert your 'get over it' reply here

[bluestateguy]

1. What else would you call it?

When somebody comes onto this board and whines that we don't have a chance in 2008 because of the media, or the voting machines, or Karl Rove, or the religious right, and then provides no solutions or constructive criticisms?

I would call that defeatism, and then I would thank God that such people were not at Little Round Top in 1863, or on Iwo Jima in 1945.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

2. I call it political newbieism.

A lot of people don't seem to understand the historical context of the current political situation, and demand that the democrats in congress do things that they simply can't do as a minority party.

[Lexingtonian]

5. It would be nice if they generally were newbies

but that is not the case. It's long timers who tend to be worst about it.

It's not lack of exposure to information. Paul Krugman can get the essence of election 2004- 'Bush got voted in to defend us against married gay terrorists'- down in ways and few words and from a perusal of the public information these folks just won't.

It's some mix of burnout and despair, and to some extent unwillingness to accept that The People voted against the simpleminded and unimaginative approach of certain kinds of vehement Democrats. It's easier to imagine or pretend to that there's a conspiracy against your group rather than admit to a fundamentally flawed personal political stance. And most varieties of being Democratic (being Old Left, being Moderate) still have quite a bit of conservatism in them, which makes their advocates kind of feeble and vulnerable in the face of certain kinds of hardline Republicanism.

There are letters from Grant's army at Petersburg from April 1865, where soldiers write stuff like 'now that we have taken Richmond and Petersburg, the croakers no longer know how Bobbie Lee will beat us now and admit that victory is possible.' This is between the successful storming of the defenses of Petersburg on Battle Sunday, April 2, 1865, and Lee's surrender at Appomattox Court House on April 9. (Of course, after Appomattox the Union soldiers felt indefatiguable.)

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. conspiracy

It's easier to imagine or pretend to that there's a conspiracy against your group rather than admit to a fundamentally flawed personal political stance.

Funny, I said almost exactly the same thing a few weeks back. Nothing makes our party look worse than blaming the Republicans for our own problems.

[Jon8503]

4. So what is your solution or your ideas to turn things around.

<em>The Dems just sold out again on the filibuster rule. They caved.

I am not a defeatist but I am looking for some good progressive leadership of the democractic party and I hope Howard Dean will provide that leadership.

Sometimes wining and bitching at least brings to the forefront the understanding there is a problem and eventually some ideas will develop out of all the bitching. A good bitchfest can be productive at times.

You do need new and fresh ideas as well.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. My solution.

Win some goddamn elections once in a while. That'd be a start.

[vi5]

6. I agree about that stuff but on the other hand...

when a specific event happens and it represents a loss or a defeat in a person's eyes, why can't they point that out without being told to just clap louder and it will miraculously become a victory?

It's one thing to not do something because you don't think you have a chance of winning in the future. It's another to legitimately view something that happened as a defeat.

A lot of people (myself among them) feel that this "compromise" is a raw deal and a defeat that will reverberate and negatively impact the dems ability to fight in the future. Does that mean they shouldn't fight or that we don't have a chance? No. But it makes theirs and our jobs a lot harders so that's not a good thing, is it.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

13. Well...

when a specific event happens and it represents a loss or a defeat in a person's eyes, why can't they point that out without being told to just clap louder and it will miraculously become a victory?

It is exactly this kind of either/or, good/evil, with us / against us type of thinking that we are supposed to be against I'm not necessarily clapping my hands over this either, just pointing out that the likeliest outcome of this battle was a lot WORSE than what we actually got.


It's one thing to not do something because you don't think you have a chance of winning in the future. It's another to legitimately view something that happened as a defeat.

We had no chance of winning. The best-case scenario if we had taken this fight head-on would be that we lose the fillibuster and temporarily stop the work of the senate from proceeding. Once the fillibuster was lost, it would be nearly impossible to get it back. Having the fillibuster on the table for Supreme Court nominations was the most important thing in this fight, and we have it.

[vi5]

15. You did make a good point.....

"We had no chance of winning. The best-case scenario if we had taken this fight head-on would be that we lose the fillibuster and temporarily stop the work of the senate from proceeding. Once the fillibuster was lost, it would be nearly impossible to get it back. Having the fillibuster on the table for Supreme Court nominations was the most important thing in this fight, and we have it."

This is actually a very good point and one of the first I've read or seen made that has swayed me slightly to the thinking that this may not be as bad as I think.

I think what's largely getting to me is the media spin on this. As though the extremes of both sides were just as guilty. Reid is being presented as just as much an extremist nutjob as Frist is.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

16. This fight was always about the USSC.

The republicans really don't give a fuck about Bush's other judicial nominees. You don't threaten the "nukular option" over a couple of geeks who want to be on the 5th circuit. This agreement preserved the balance of power in the Senate and served as a warning to Bush on his USSC nominations - behave, follow the rules, select qualified candidates, or we won't consider them.

[Alpharetta]

3. The same spineless Senators who voted to cede War Powers

in the Iraq War Resolution vote.

If I call them spineless for giving Bush the power to make war in Iraq whenever he chose, then I guess I'm defeatist.

[Lexingtonian]

7. So...

What would you have us do? Grow a new crop from scratch and try to replace them all with Perfect Democrats over the course of, oh, 20 or 30 years?

We are stuck with making/getting the best out of the lot we do have. You Georgians could start by actually electing Democrats, or whatever else meets your standards for perfection, for a change.

We live with the residues of the past. Iraq is spillover from the Cold War, this whole era of Republicanism is all about dealing with the residues of the Cold War in foreign affairs, and the arrival of Modernity in domestic ones.

[Alpharetta]

14. What's a pro team owner do with a team of athletes who don't try?

If I've got a team of players who cave in early in the game, the fans (voters) don't show up.

I'd bring up some minor leaguers who try harder. Win or lose, at least the fans would know they're seeing an earnest effort.

Yep. I'd dump any Senator who didn't have the stones to stand with Senator Robert Byrd against the Iraq War Resolution.

[H2O Man]

8. Of the judges being contested,

these were the three absolute worst. They will be among the very worst judges ever appointed to this high of a level in the judicial branch of government. They will be in a position to further erode any chance of people having access to justice in America. When people on the democratic side contest things such as the radical Cheney policies that are destroying 30 years of environmental protection efforts, it is extremely important that there be honest and decent judges at the higher federal courts. Within two years, I believe that those DUers who are saying this was a "victory" for the democrats will come to see it as a sad day.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. oh you bad defeatest shame on you

pay no attention to the fact that these three are now established as beneath the level of extraordinary circumstances that would warrant a filibuster. Who the fuck would asshat bush have to nominate to reach the new level of unacceptability? Satan? Saddam? Who? I'm dying to know. Could one of the non-defeatests explain that to me?

[H2O Man]

10. A sad, sad day

for all those who believe in the Bill of Rights, and in the concept of a separation of powers in the federal government. I think that within the next three years, we will see the progress made in the past 30-40 years go down the drain. The senate just compromised our ability to fight the good fight, with confidence that the higher levels of the federal courts would provide justice for all.

[in_cog_ni_to]

11. Indeed. The bar has been raised to a new height.

Unbelievable. I nominate SATAN. He should qualify for "extraordinary circumstances". :(

[Guaranteed]

12. Look, all people mean when they use that word in this situation

is that some DUers are trying to create the impression that our Democratic leadership doesn't actually have the power of the filibuster, while we are DESPERATELY counting on the fact that they retain that power.

That's all.

[bryant69]

17. That's bullshit

Defeatist is not the same thing as Shut the Fuck Up. They don't even sound alike. They sound totally different. Try saying them both outloud. Thdy don't sound anything alike.

If you express what I consider a defeatist statement, than I'm going to call it a defeatist statement. That's the way the game is played. You can't participate in a discussion without taking your share of criticism. That's life.

If you choose to interpret that as "Shut the Fuck Up" well there's not much one can do about that.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[John_H]

18. The Kings and Queens of defeatism are

our party's leadership. If knowing defeat when you see it is defeatism, then where's my name tag?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. And, "Victory" is the new buzzword of the Chamberlain Democrats.

3 new fascist judges. Hooray!! Victory!!

The nuclear option intact and to be wielded by the Repugs at will. Break out the Champagne!! Victory!!

The Democrats folded under pressure. Oh, joy, another massive victory!!

Don't worry, be happy!!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

22. Thanks, that's swell.

Obviously you have all the answers, and to disagree with you is to be a enabler of Hitler. Talk about overheated rhetoric, sheesh!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Do you prefer Quisling?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

25. No.

I don't prefer being called a nazi sympathizer. If that's all you got to say, then I've got nothing to say in return.

[DS1]

23. If DU weren't full of Marvin the Robots you'd have a point

Not that I can say I'm optimistic all the time.