BBC to "cause riots on ME": Reports on plans for a death chamber at Gitmo

[shraby]

Discussion on dailykos

<http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/5/23/11840/8834>

[Hissyspit]

1. Oh, nominated and kicked by the way...

[hlthe2b]

2. Seconded..... OH MY GOD!!!!!!

Isn't it time for a well placed lightening strike, Lord?

Death chamber, but no lawyers, no defense. Are they intentionally channeling Hitler?

[me b zola]

24. "no lawyers, no defense"

...and no charges. Isn't it true that most, if not all of the people being held at GITMO are held without being charged with anything??



This gets scarier & more outragious everyday.

[psychopomp]

43. This story is from 2003

I remember when we circulated this on DU..
"Update <2005-5-24 19:6:16 by lawnorder>: - As many pointed out below, this BBC article is from 2003. I posted UPDATE: Gitmo executions/ death chamber - what happened since 2003 as an update on what happened in Camp Delta since then but the good news is that - as far as the press knows - no one was formaly sent to a death chamber there since then. This is in part thanks to our "activist judges" who forced the government to follow the Geneva Conventions which put a kebash on their military trials... The bad news is that those law abiding, fair and honest judges will soon be a thing of the past when Frist and Delay get done with their gutting of the judiciary :("
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/5/23/11840/8834

[GreenPoet64]

3. What the HELL? God what have we become? n/t

[alittlelark]

4. I PRAY they have the story wrong....

snip
<A court and execution chamber could be built at the US detention camp in Cuba under plans being drawn up by military officials.

Military tribunals for some of the hundreds of men detained at the US base on Guantanamo Bay moved a step closer last month with the appointment of a chief prosecutor and chief defence counsel.

Pentagon rules for the tribunals permit death sentences to be passed and the construction of a death chamber at the camp is among options being considered.>

[Stephanie]

5. Excerpt >

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2979076.stm

Camp Delta death chamber plan

A court and execution chamber could be built at the US detention camp in Cuba under plans being drawn up by military officials.

Military tribunals for some of the hundreds of men detained at the US base on Guantanamo Bay moved a step closer last month with the appointment of a chief prosecutor and chief defence counsel.

Pentagon rules for the tribunals permit death sentences to be passed and the construction of a death chamber at the camp is among options being considered.

But defence officials stress that everything remains on the drawing board until orders are issued by the president.

"We have a number of plans that we work for short-term and long-term strategies but that's all they are - plans," camp commander Major-General Geoffrey Miller told the Associated Press news agency.

[Hissyspit]

6. Good idea, Steph. Kick

[oxbow]

7. "everything remains on the drawing board until orders are issued"

"...By the president"

Would that be the same drawing board that the Iraq War was on until the month before the war? :sarcasm: God, but when these people find a line that works, they work it into the ground! Given their record, they probably already have the gas chambers up and running.

EDIT: Do we need to send this out to the media or do you think they'll actually do their own job just once?

[thecai]

8. They're Trying To "Americanize" Cuba!

America has plenty of death chambers.

[FreedomAngel82]

32. Plans for how long??

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

9. Next Bush will bring back the auto da fe and reconvene the inquisition

with public burning at the stake for heretics

[Michael_Bush]

10. If this is indeed true, this calls for real action

Not just pissing and moaning on boards but open united action. Only problem is that Cuba is a long swim.


Here is the direct BBC link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2979076.stm

If this is true, I think this one requires some real action. I believer that torturing and killing, in secret, a tiny select core of Al Queda leaders is acceptable. However, I don't believe any of the prisoners there ever fit into that category. This is the start of death camps and I will not be complicit in it like the Germans were.

The Geneva Convention does not allow holding prisoners or civilians after the cessation of hostilities, something that has clearly happened in Afghanistan and the case could be made that Mission Accomplished signified the end of hostilities in Iraq. Merely holding them is a war crime, imprisoning them for life based on secret hearings is one then, executing them is a horrifying leap.

This shall not stand.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. You believe that torturing and killing Al Qaeda leaders is ACCEPTABLE?

Especially in secret?

Al Qaeda or not, they're still human beings.

By torturing and killing prisoners, our side has lost any right to protest when their side does it to Americans.

[Michael_Bush]

27. Nuance

Terrorism is an ugly business, I have no doubt that America brought on the 9/11 attacks by our actions in the ME.

That said, I do believe there are RARE instances, EXTREME instances were judicious use of torture, assignation, and other extreme forms of violence are justified in ending this war. If I was "in charge" and I caught Bin Ladin, I would have no compunctions against torturing him to get every drop of info I could and then deep sixing him in the ocean so he never becomes a martyr and people never quite know what happened. Unfortunately in the case of Bush, he already knows much of what Bin Laudin knows and sure as hell doesn't want that info getting out so calling for him to be kept alive makes sense in THIS case.

In Beirut, the Russians, like everyone else, started having their nationals kidnapped. The Russians reacted swiftly and violently and nobody kidnapped Russians anymore. The Russians kidnapped a few high level people (everyone knew who was who), cut off their genitals and sewed them into their mouths and dumped their dead bodies in the street. It was a horrible thing but the violence against the Russians ended and the Russians didn't have to bomb or shell people like we did killing innocent civilians.

Our torturing of people in Gitmo and other places is HIGHLY counter productive and a war crime. Especially doing it in such a random way, the Intel you do get is worthless. The propaganda we hand Al Queda and the hate we incite by doing it so cavalierly is suicidal. Perhaps most important, as you so clearly point out, ignoring the Geneva Convention and others allows any enemy to torture and abuse our troops from the moral high ground.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. That's making a lot of assumptions

Even if Osama bin Laden is the total and sole mastermind behind 9/11, we're supposed to be better than him.

We didn't even torture the Nazi leaders after WWII.

The only reason to torture Osama bin Laden would be to satisfy feelings of vengeance.

And once you embark on that road, once you even hint that that's acceptable, you unleash all the potential for cruelty that humans beings possess, and it's a nearly unstoppable snowball effect.

The Japanese atrocities at Nanjing in 1937 didn't spring into existence without precedent. It was not a matter of previously well behaved soldiers suddenly going berserk. Almost immediately after landing on the coast, the Japanese officers began by allowing their troops to loot Chinese farms to supplement their meagre rations. When the Chinese civilians understandably resisted, the officers looked the other way when the troops killed them. As the army progressed inland, they became increasingly cruel and vicious, culminating in the several weeks of random rape, torture, and mass murder that has come down in history as the Nanjing Massacre or the Rape of Nanking.

It's been my experience in all areas of life that the people at the top of any organization set the tone. Even without an explicit policy allowing torture, lower-ranking military have felt authorized to brutalize and even murder Iraqi prisoners "just because." If the word came out that it was okay to torture some people, the sadists among the lower ranks would feel that there was no reason NOT to exercise their cruel impulses.

[Michael_Bush]

36. I agree

I agree that the abuses at Abu Grab are the result of people at the top setting the tone that indiscriminate torture and abuse of prisoners is acceptable. What we are doing to our prisoners is a war crime and those at the top should be tried accordingly.

What I was refering to was not indiscriminate use of violence but very select and judicious use of it. We provided special weapons to various resistance groups in Europe for the express purpose of assinating German officers. We ourselves made several attempts.

I firmly believe that the "accidental" bombing of the Chinese embassy in Serbia was anything but and I support that move. The Chinese were supplying satelite intelligence and other support to the Serbs that were threatening our troops. That accident made it clear to the Chinese that that we would not accept that and I am pretty sure they got the message.

This is a subtle point I am trying to make about a very unsubtle subject. Secretly torturing someone is vastly differ than torturing someone in secrecy. Ensuring nobody ever knows you did it CAN (as in sometimes) be very effective. Ensuring everyone KNOWS you are torturing people but only keeping secret who, how, and where is INSANELY counterproductive. Both are evil but only one furthers your cause.

I completely understand if you find this position highly offensive.

[DearAbby]

41. What the hell do people expect the information to be?

Most of those detained at Gitmo have been there over 3 yrs, do you expect their information to be current? WHAT THE HELL ARE WE TORTURING PEOPLE FOR?

And with torture, how can one be sure that the information gained under this practice is accurate?

[Michael_Bush]

42. You are absolutely right

All we have succeeded in doing at Gitmo is creating terrorists and radicalizing their extended families. If Al Queda hasn't noticed someone is dead in three years and changed accordingly, they are dumber than we are. If there are serious people there, we need to have legitimate public trials and see where the chips fall, if they aren't serious people we should pay restitution and release them.

As for intelligence, that is such a convoluted game that I don't want to go into it here.

[Penguin31]

11. Nommed and Kicked

[NVMojo]

12. like someone else on DU said ...what have they been doing while we

were all distracted by filibuster/nuclear options and stupid Laura Bush tours???

Now we know at least one of the things they were hoping we weren't gonna catch until it was too late. Shame on this nation for sitting idly by on its hands while people are murdered for the Bush vision of America!!!

[rucky]

13. I demand a retraction!

nevermind. I take that back.





scary stuff, but not surprising.

[Disturbed]

14. Aren't there any Lawyers in Amerika concerned about justice?

I sure hope there a several.

[annabanana]

15. monsterous, and very sad

and scary beyond belief

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

16. Oh wow, how horrible

Tried and executed out of sight with no representation? No one will know who they were, or what they did? A star chamber?

[Hubert Flottz]

17. Topf and Sons will get that contract with herr Bush in charge!

He probably got some great ideas on his last trip to "Yuurp"!

[Frederik]

20. IG Farben will get the contracts

for supplying Zyklon B to the gas chambers where the Jews, um, Muslims will meet "justice".

Arbeit macht frei.

[Hubert Flottz]

21. Dokkktor Frist may go down and conduct a few experiments...

and make some of those key "SELECTIONS"...

[Frederik]

23. Who knows, some may be usable as cheap labor.

And for testing new chemicals and such. "Not tested on animals".

[mmonk]

18. We ought to send

this story to our representatives. We need to ask them if we are the 21st century's Nazi Germany.

[Frederik]

19. The Nazis are showing their true colours

The the fuck is going on? Death camps now? Gas chambers? Arbeit macht frei? I'm speechless. History does repeat itself.

[seemslikeadream]

34. Just takin' a look around?

What went wrong? How to improve.

[Frederik]

39. Bingo

What kind of an attire is that for a veep to wear at the holocaust memorial? He's intentionally transmitting the message that he doesn't think the holocaust is anything to make such a fuss about.

[Davey Crockett]

25. No the death chamber will be on a space station.

Just as believable.

[jayfish]

26. They Are Going To Riot Over a Two-Year Old Story?

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/052703B.shtml

Everyone must have thought it was :tinfoilhat: stuff.

Jay

[KansDem]

28. "Death chamber?" I wonder what method of execution will be used?

Anyone know?

[Jose Diablo]

29. It's a start

Once this is accomplished then the real agenda will follow. And that will be to place the death chambers within detention camps right here, on our soil.

And in these camps will be held prisoners, just like in Gitmo, that have not recieved due process according to the constitution, but rather due process according to the Patriot Acts.

Give it time. Our country's march to pre-WWII Germany is well underway.

All of these things fit together, the turmoil in the Senate over the nuke option, Gitmo, Iraq, intelligence 'failures'. It all ties together. Just step back a little and look at it all and see the patterns emerge.

This country is being dismantled by a cabal. The same cabal that profited when Germany was taken down and the entire world thrown into a war that destroyed practically the entire industrial base of the world, at that time. Except at that time, one country's industrial base was preserved, the USA. Why was this industrial base preserved? Because the cabal was invested in this base. Now it's not, the cabal is invested in another industrial base, any guess where the new industrial base is located? Where is the money stored today? Find the answer to this question then you will know, who these people are.

[understandinglife]

31. "Just step back a little and look at it all and see the patterns emerge."

Yeap.

As noted:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3688434

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3708092

It has happened and it is readily obvious, if you do as you suggest and 'just step back a little and look....'.

Peace.




www.missionnotaccomplished.us

[killbotfactory]

33. stop this fucking inquisition now

people held without charge, tortured, and then executed without a fair trial. this is sick.

[Vincardog]

35. Are they going to get the plans from the NAZI SS?

What is next ovens to dispose of the corpses? We have to stop these sick shits.

[alfredo]

37. I remember this story from 2003. It might have been

this BBC story. Now that Miller has left there, have they built it, or was it scrapped?

[alfredo]

38. My letter to my congressman Ben Chandler

On June 10 2003 the BBC ran this story. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2979076.stm

Camp Delta death chamber plan
A court and execution chamber could be built at the US detention camp in Cuba under plans being drawn up by military officials.
Military tribunals for some of the hundreds of men detained at the US base on Guantanamo Bay moved a step closer last month with the appointment of a chief prosecutor and chief defence counsel.

Pentagon rules for the tribunals permit death sentences to be passed and the construction of a death chamber at the camp is among options being considered.

But defence officials stress that everything remains on the drawing board until orders are issued by the president.


More at link.

My questions are:

Is this story correct?

Assuming it is correct:

Has the chamber been OK'd for construction?

If it has, is it under construction or completed.

Who has the contract, and how much will it cost?

[Miss Chybil]

40. Story from 2003. nt