Frist isn't the only one "nutted" by the deal.

[johnaries]

I jumped over to FR. They're calling it "McCain's Deal". They are totally PISSED at McCain! This deal has seriously hurt both Frist's AND McCain's chances at the nomination! Time for one quick
:woohoo:
and now I need a shower!

[Catch22Dem]

1. I think McCain gained some serious political capital today

The problem (thankfully) is that it wasn't with his own party. He gained capital with the moderates and fence sitters. Fortunately for us, those aren't the people who choose the nominees. If he could somehow magically go straight to the general election, he'd probably win in the biggest landslide we've ever seen, but you're right, he lost the nomination.

[smartvoter]

6. He was never going to get the nomination. Too independent. nt

[merh]

2. Isn't it wonderful.

Two repukes and the saving of the filibuster! I think it is one hell of a deal.

:freak: Now, don't touch me, you have been over there. :scared:

[johnaries]

4. Don't worry, I'm using Industrial Strength cleanser to get

the slime off. Ow! It burns! It burns! (the slime, not the cleanser).

[merh]

9. LOL - don't forget to take those antibiotics!

That stuff can get to you through your skin and make you sick. :puke:

[Rowdyboy]

12. It is so fine, I can barely stop gloating....

They drew the line in the sand and then they walked away....Cowards and losers

[merh]

13. Wrong, they drew the line in the sand and the repukes walked away.

WE ARE THE MINORITY. If they had stayed united, if they had had the votes, you can bet your last dollar the repukes would not have walked away. They could have taken the filibuster and appointed everyone of their creepy judges. Instead of 8 on the list that were nominated and being debated, they got 3. 3 out of 8, no nuclear option, we keep the filibuster and guess what, WE ARE THE MINORITY.

We won. It is that simple.

[Rowdyboy]

14. Sorry, guy, you misunderstand me! I know we won!

Dobson is humiliated, Frist is de-balled, the Filibuster lives and, if they're dumb enough to make the threat again, no one will take them seriously. They've screwed Bush, they've screwed Cheney and all the rest.

They made a threat they couldn't keep and now they've going to pay.

[merh]

15. Oh, sorry I misunderstood you!

:toast: And McCain is now seen as a turncoat and the base is blaming him for the cowardice and sham! :woohoo:

The tide is turning! :woohoo:

[Rowdyboy]

16. They will now turn on Dewine, Chaffee, Collins, Spector, Snow, Graham

and (obviously) McCain. Their party is in chaos, open civil war, and we're riding high. Just can't understand why so many here refuse to accept victory.

[merh]

25. They wanted it all, they wanted their soldiers to have fought the

battle, been bloodied and come home victorious. They wanted the filibuster and no "bad" judges.

It's that kooky war mentality. The only way you win is to win outright, take no prisoners, destroy the bad guys. :shrug:

They don't appreciate that turning back the giant without battling is the greatest victory of all.

[FreedomAngel82]

41. I think the republicans know

they can't win the 2008 election without the vote of the fundamentalists who always go out and vote. I'm afraid of what they have planned to bring back the fundies and freepers by 2006 and 2008.

[oldtime dfl_er]

3. What could be better?

They both want to run for prez, this may just assure that there will be a longterm rift between them, rather than a McCain-Frist ticket.

www.cafepress.com/showtheworld

[Mojambo]

5. The Republican party just might have cracked today

I know there have always been moderates in the GOP, but today you saw them stand in open defiance to Bush and fundies for the first time.

It's possible that in the long run that might make up for the fact that Brown, Owens and Pryor get on the bench.

I just don't have a firm opinion on the deal yet.

[Erika]

7. Just heard Dobson is furious about the vote

So to all you naysayers about how we lost, "I don't quite think so"

[KharmaTrain]

8. GOOP Demolition Derby Round I

Remember, the final judge here is Uncle Dick Chenney. All this chatter about a 2008 GOOP nomination is just window dressing. It was in 2000...the powers that be decided Bunnypants in '98-'99 will meet in some smoke-filled room...pour some drinks and Uncle Dick will say who the next choice is.

Frist ain't gonna be the one...never was. He's too smarmy for the money men...he's better used as a goon and soldier than a leader. He's there to keep the fundies happy and make 'em feel they've got some power (as we see, again, they really don't have as much as they think they do)...McCain, as in 2000, is too flakey...has a conscious now and then that actually works that creates troubles and is a good foil for the REAL nominee to make it appear there's a real nomination place.

[H2O Man]

20. You are right that it is

the first round of the republican primary. I think that Frist actually won. The Senate is always filled with compromise, and that in and of itself is not bad. In that context, Frist was aware that this would happen. In fact, he is likely as happy as anyone. He is now the darling of the far right, and there is little evidence that the republican party is looking to tread moderate ground. McCain is now in a box within the republican party: any problem getting the Chenmey judges in with be blamed on him. Meanwhile, the three most extreme judges are being put in the most important positions, and many people are celebrating this as a democratic victory. It's as if a thug robbed us for all of our dollars, but let us keep a handful of coins, and we see that as a victory.

[KharmaTrain]

22. 6 Of One Half A Dozen

I don't think Frist came out of this as clean as you think. Yes, he's the darling of the wingnut right...but he grabbed that position last year and I can't think of anyone "electable" further to the right than he is...and that includes Condi and even Chenney himself.

His coven were told to expect a total victory, no compromise and were ready to go to the mat...just like Gingrich did with the House in '95...and by doing this he could energize his base even further and stay in the forefront (that's what this is all about anyway, isn't it?). They don't see this as a victory in the least and are angrier than we are. For once that's not a bad thing, cause the enemy these people now are squaring off against are going to be their own. If Democrats are smart, we should encourage this and make tons of hay while infighting rages.

McCain's become the new Goldwater...if he'll have any impact on the future of the Repugnican party, it'll be in future generations who will view him as the "populist" of the era like Goldwater begat Raygun and so on. Right now, he's on a ledge and he's known it for a long time. Even after all that sucking of Rove last year, McCain got precious little out of that last election, he's gotta see he'll never win the nomination from within...thus his best best is for the party to implode and ride to the rescue (this was the scenario I had for him last year if Bunnypants were to have lost the election).

Yes, he's a box within the GOOP...but a year and a half ago, before the primaries, many here would have said he was a box within our group. No longer. Let's see how this shakes out, but I'm sensing the schism of the social and fiscal conservative have a lot to do with this as well...the money men like the bible thumper to stay in their place...make their noise, but not have any real power. Will Dobson accept this status quo?

Yes, they're gonna get 3 corporate hacks on the bench. But better than 5 or 7. Also, better to get the corporate ones than the social ones (if you have to pick you poison). I can stomache an Owens...whose will not whitewash Enron, but better than a Roy Moore who would probably legislate this country back to the 17th Century.

The endgame here is now how long it will take to get these names to the floor and voted on. Methinks after all this angst, Frist needs a breather to re-stack the deck. He now knows he needs 60 votes and nothing else will do. How this affects things will be interesting to watch as well. Now is this 60 not just 5 more Repugnican seats but replacing a few incumbent Repugnicans as well?

BTW...are you with the Hoffmania site? If so, say hello to Famous Amos for me!

Cheers!

[H2O Man]

26. I'm not familiar

with the "Hoffmania site" that you mention, and do not know any "Amos," famous or otherwise. Apparently you are, and so I guess you can relay the message to Amos.

I think that we will see Frist coming out stronger when the dust settles. Goldwater's heyday was 1964. The movement that was created by the conservatives that followed him would actually make him seem rather liberal. Frist is the result of the rabid republicans that followed Goldwater.

The republican party will not be moving in McCain's direction.

[KharmaTrain]

29. Not Sure He's Stronger

Barry Goldwater was probably the most populist Repugnican of the second half of the 20th Century. His timing was so that he a "radical" in a time of tremendous political flux. You had the Democrats torn between the Dixiecrats and Northern liberals and the Repugnicans still in remission from McCarthyism and in one of its most moderate modes since the civil war.

Raygun used this void and exploited it as he went beyond just defense (Goldwater's big issue) and went into taxes and then social issues and would reap benefits from Nixon's Southern Strategy. Frist is a "byproduct" of that system.

I don't see how Frist's power is enhanced by this. Other than Bunnypants himself, there's no higher public figure on the far right's radar than this guy...he can't really get any stronger. However in the middle, he's a lot weaker as he no longer is seen as a moderate compared to a McCain or a Lindsay Graham or Specter and so on. He also looks like a one-trick pony to many fiscal Conservatives who see the religious right as an annoyance. We'll see how this pans out.

Yep, the GOOP isn't moving in McCain's direction. You gotta think Chenney's gotta love seeing some good infighting...keep 'em divided and distracted and then be the "power broker" in the end. He was ready to do this by doing the actual rule change and casting the tie-breaking vote. Now he'll have to be content doing it within his own caucus.

I mis-read your tag line...I thought it was a link to the Hoffmania blog...a very good Progressive/Liberal one.

Cheers!

[H2O Man]

30. Time will tell.

If you are right, I will certainly be pleased. But I think that this will make Frist stronger than if the conflict had come to a head today in the Senate. Becoming stronger should not be viewed only in terms of "ranking"; Frist is stronger because he just got the three most anti-democratic, anti-Bill of Rights, and pro-corporate people ready to be given an up-or-down vote that will entrench them at a high level in the federal judiciary. These three will not be promoting McCain's agenda in the courts -- but they surely will be advocating for the extreme right's agenda. That would be Frist.

[KharmaTrain]

34. The Conflict Hasn't And Won't Come

I just listened to Cornyn wail about this compromise and the more I hear those wingnuts distance from it, the more I'm liking this.

We agree that if this had come to a head, Frist would have been stronger...as he would have been the "face" of this issue, now that's been yanked from under him. Thus my comment why his power is diminished. I'm sure there's gotta be a completely different feel in that Repugnican caucus room today than 24 hours ago.

None of these judges have been confirmed, yet, and there's no time table even to vote on Owens. We'll know more by looking at the schedule. Frist's ability to play his hand has been drastically changed.

Also, Reid can still manipulate the debate now and drag these nominations on while the others will get shitcanned. The fact goons like Cornyn are on the floor saying "I didn't participate in this decision" gives Reid and moderates cover to justify bringing these nominations to the floor anytime soon. Surely the polls are showing these people it's time to move onto something else...especially to the Repugnicans.

McCain comes out a bit stonger, just as now there's a visible opposition to Frist's own leadership and McCain just pissed in his punchbowl bigtime. This indirectly gives cover to Specter who run the judiciary, and part of me thinks is also getting even with Frist and BFEE for putting him on a short leash on the judiciary. Now, we can even salivate that this could force even more Repugnicans, like Lugar and Hagel to the middle and this could create a real mess on the Bolton situation.

As they say where I come from. Stay tuned...

[FreedomAngel82]

42. Interesting on McCain

I think you could be right. Right now the republican party is pretty much taken over by the fundies and they know this is getting out of control. I think McCain is showing the fundies they don't have much of a say anymore in the party and he wants his real party back. He definitley is playing the hero part.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Screw Frist. Justice got nutted by this sellout by the Dems.

So what if the uber-fascists are pissed off about not getting everything they wanted? We got stuck with fascist judges on the bench without a fight and the nuclear option intact if the faux-"opposition part so much as squeeks.

[Nothing Without Hope]

11. McCain is a cunning politician - he is betting that support will swing to

the moderates and he is posing as a moderate "compromiser" in this scene. He also saved the Administration's butt by averting a showdown on the filibuster fight. If the the challenge to the filibuster had been defeated - and the numbers looked like that would probably have been the outcome - then the GOP would be shown to be defeatable and the Dems' position would have been greatly strengthened. On the other hand, if the filibuster had been destroyed, polls show that most Americans would not care for that. Either way, it was a showdown that was bad for the GOP.

The Bush administration has applauded the "compromise." In fact, this "compromise" is a cavein by the Dem cosigners. The nuclear option has only been tabled for now and could be brought into play at any time. The Dems are saying "We promise not to use the filibuster if you promise not to take it away."

McCain is cunning enough to calculate his political capital for the longer term, not like Frist, who is a total fool and jackass. All too many Americans are still taken in by his "honest" and "independent' act - he's banking on that. And now we have his "compromise" act. It's all phony and all calcuated with an eye to the future.

OF COURSE the "überfascists" are making noise about how much they gave up in the sham "compromise." Some of the real fools may actually believe it, but most are simply posturing to pretend they are great compromisers. All a sham.

[merh]

17. So Hope, you think the dems lost?

The Bush admin is putting a positive spin on its loss of power. All of the sheeple have stopped following. They don't have total control, members of the party have defied them.

Let's put it this way. You have two armies - one army out numbers the other army and it wants the smaller army's territory, including all of their water. They stand ready for battle and the bigger army leaders decide to make a deal with the little army leaders because they have learned that some of their battalions will fight with the little army.

The leaders of both armies meet and decide that instead of invading and taking all of the little army's land, including its water, the little army will share its water with the big army. The little army gives the big army some water and the big army goes home. Who won?

Why of course, the little army. It saved its land by giving the water to the big army, water it would have lost any way if they had battled. The little army saved its land and didn't fire a shot or lose a man, ready to battle another day. The big army tucked its tail and went home and also has to deal with members that would have turned on it.

Folks here are just such dreamers or pessimists, I can't decide which.
This was a victory.

[Nothing Without Hope]

19. I hope you're right - time will tell. It's certainly not as bad as if the

vote had been held and the Dems were defeated. But that was apparently unlikely - though a real nailbiter with far too much at stake. The fact is, the anti-filibuster vote has only been postponed until the Dems try to use a filibuster on someone the Bushies really want, like a Supreme Court justice. Yes, the whackjobs would have preferred a total capitulation, but this way they can portray themselves as "compromisers" and "bipartisan" as opposed to the Dems' "obstructionism" and "partisan politics." If it's true as has been widely rumored that the votes for killing the filibuster rule were not there, the GOP will come out stronger than they would have.

I've just posted a thread linking to a collection of video clips and an impressive number of blog comments on both the Dem and the GOP sides. It was assembled - and will continue to be updated all night - at the Crooks and Liars site. Here's the thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1804963&mesg_id=1804963
Thread title: “A great filibuster deal BLOG & VIDEO CLIP collection at Crooks & Liars”

Time will tell how this will all play out.

[merh]

24. What is wrong with the members of a party that do not celebrate

victories, no matter how small? The dems, the minority, made the repukes, the majority, blink. The repukes gave up what they wanted, total control and settled for 3 of 8 judges that were on the table. And even those 3 judges are not guaranteed.

Half Full, dear Hope, half full and empowering. As the admin now has to deal with the turncoats in their midst.

:patriot:

[H2O Man]

21. I do.

I think that the compromise can only be viewed as helping to preserve a Senate tactic that the democrats have agreed not to use when it is most important. Of the 8 judges in question, three should be wearing white sheets rather than black robes. And those three will now be up for the vote that will place them at the second highest level of the federal courts. They will actually be deciding more cases than the Supreme Court justices do. Thus, their extreme right-wing policies will become further entrenched in our culture.

What does that mean? As a person who opposes the death penalty, you will see it become harder to challenge cases based on silly things like the Bill of Rights. Environmental protections? Who will these three favor? Corporations or communities? How about cases where the public wants to challenge the government, and needs FOI to get the documentation they need to prove their case?

In the not-so-distant future, this compromise will be viewed as "saving" a senate tactic that the democrats dare not use in the most important cases, at the expense of the federal court system.

[merh]

23. Sorry, have to disagree

One judge on a panel does not make a panel. Understand how the system works and recognize that the inner workings of the court will keep that judge in check.

The filibuster was preserved and the repukes backed down, fearful of those in the party that turned on them and did not follow the master. Fearful of those that respect democracy over power.

We still have the filibuster (extraoridinary circumstances be damned, that means nothing) and we still have the shut down options.

The minority won without having to use the weapons, as minimal they are, that were at their disposal.

The weed's power base is weekend and democracy has proven to more important than totalitarian control. A victory.

[H2O Man]

27. Here is a good example

of where democrats -- and, indeed, DUers -- can strongly disagree about something, but still be not only respectful, but even be friends. While I recognize that I am not always right, I am confident that in a brief time, those who view this as a victory will come to see it very differently. What is happening to the federal courts is the same as what happens when a corporation dumps toxic chemicals into the community water supply. A compromise that "only" allows the most toxic chemical waste to enter our water supply will have the most toxic consequences.

[merh]

28. We shall agree to disagree.

What would you have preferred, they stood their ground, the fought the fight and the lost the filibuster and the repukes got all the judges they wanted, every single last one of them, including the horrible 3?

That is what we were facing because WE ARE THE BLASTED MINORITY.

We didn't have the votes, but we were close to having the votes. Repuke moderates recognized the danger to democracy and walked the tight rope, but if push had come to shove, for the sake of their own political careers, they would have voted the party line.

That is the plain and simple truth.

To not recognize the victory, no matter how small it may be, is an injustice and a shame.

I step at a time, one step at a time.

[H2O Man]

31. Well of course I would not

have favored losing everything. I do not see that as the only option, and I think we need to consider that there are more options than two. I think if it came down to a show-down in the senate today, Frist would have lost. I realize his lap dogs were saying they had counted the votes and were confident they would win. Please consider this in a different context: Frist knew he didn't have the votes. He bluffed, and the democrats folded. I think that frist is very happy with how this came out.

[merh]

33. No, dems bluffed and the repukes folded.

Having dealt with politicans for years, I know that they all too easily will vote party (for pnacs, for support, for money, for votes) than vote against it, even if it means democracy will be harmed. They rationalize their votes by believing that they can only make a difference if they are in office, so if they run the risk of losing office, they vote party so they can keep their office and continue to work to "change things".

Why in the world you assume that the repukes settled for the slap down is beyond me. They wanted 8 questionable judges and got 3 and those 3 are not guaranteed, they have to be voted on and some repukes don't like them.

Frist was emasculated, McCain just pissed off the base and fundies and they know that they have members of their party that will defy the admin (or at least they believe they will, given their compromise).

It was Frist's battle and the repukes battle to win, they didn't.

Thus, the dems won.

Half Full dear Waterman, half full.

[H2O Man]

35. When police are looking for information

they role play. One cop acts mean and nasty. He yells and threatens and even has been known to slam his fist on the desk in front of him. The other polite cop says, "Wait, Officer Frist, I think that Merh is a nice and reasonable person. Give me five minutes to talk to Merh. And could we be alone, please?"

The mean and nasty cop swears in a mean and nasty way, stasrts out the door, and then stops. There has to be a brief dramatic pause. Then he looks at the nice cop, and says, "Okay, Officer McCain. I'll give you five minutes with Merh." Then he looks at suspect Merh, and growls, "But let me assure you of something, Merh .... if you don't deal with Officer McCain, you are going to be dealing with me." He slams the door behind him.

McCain then looks at Merh, sighs, and says, "Don't be afraid. Officer Frist is just an old hot-head. But I think we can clear this up before you have to deal with him. He's in a really bad mood, and I'm afraid of what will happen if he comes back."

Now, if suspect Merh spills the beans, do we see that as a victory for him and Officer McCain as a team? Or did McCain and Frist just play him? Because that is what has happened here, in this real life case. Some people have been fooled into thinking that McCain sided with them. He didn't. Frist got everything he wanted. Everything. His glass is full.

[merh]

36. But Merh isn't the ring leader and hasn't given them anything more

than what they already had. The joke is on them. Even if they had filibusted the 3 judges, the weed could have appointed in vacation, just like with Pickering. Now they face a vote and it is not a given they will be confirmed.

The ring leader, is still out there and is still armed with the filibuster. They don't have that yet!

Faith dear friend. The repuke party has cracked.

[H2O Man]

40. I think that you

are trying to put me in a better mood. It's not likely to work. (grin) Not very much, anyhow.

[merh]

43. Hugs to you sweet soul!

:hug: :hug:

They are cracking - the pendulum is swinging back - have faith!

:hi:

[H2O Man]

48. I think you

may not fully appreciate how much they got .... in my occasionally humble opinion, what Officer Frist wanted was the opportunity for the vote on those three judges .... and he got them. I think we are in far worse shape than we were 24 hours ago. And I think it is going to get worse.

[merh]

57. They would have had that vote any way

or the recess appointments.

You don't appreciate what they lost. Go read the right wing's collections of comments about their "weak kneed compromise" - how is it that the RW is pissed at their guys for folding and dems refuse to appreciate what was accomplished?

Can't have your cake and eat it too, especially when you are in the minority. And guess what, my Court of Appeals is the 5th Circuit and I am not as troubled about it as you are (and I work in the legal field, criminal defense, civil rights, yadayaday). I know the rest of the conservative panel will keep her in line, they didn't tolerate pickering or he would have wanted to stick around!

:hi:

[Nothing Without Hope]

46. I agree. The GOP would never have dealt unless they stood to lose the

vote. Frist is a fool and he also has to make nice with the extremist fundies who are his chief base and demand that !00% of their demands be met - and they do NOT want an independent judicial system.

The Dems folded their hand and paid a heavy price. They are the losers in this and so are we. The only thing that works with the GOP is to stare them down and speak the truth with a coherent, clear plan.

[H2O Man]

49. Right.

Frist delivered the three extremists judges to the extreme right. Mission accomplished. They are snarling, but that is their language. I think they are happy as shit that Judges Ku, Klux, and Klan are going to get their up or down votes.

[Nothing Without Hope]

52. Exactly. PLUS, at the same low price, the Dems are more afraid to use the

filibuster for anything - and what could be worse than these horrible candidates? Only a KKK/War Criminal/Anti-Constitutional Supreme Court Judge. And for that, the GOP's ringer in the deal is that they can still vote to destroy the filibuster at any time and will do what they can in the meantime to continue pressure votes for when that time comes. Just imagine the awful phone calls Senators are getting if they have not already come out in favor of destroying the filibuster. Will they have to worry about their families? Is there blackmail over hidden misdeads or embarrassing sexual activities? There is no lower limit for the neocons in pushing to get everything they want.

[H2O Man]

54. They are cowards.

With but two or three exceptions, there isn't a democrat in the Senate that has the balls of a neutered poodle. Now, I'm a democrat, but I'm a grass-roots democrat. And it's the grass-roots democrats that are catching hell because of this administration. It's the little people who have family in Afghanistan and Iraq. It's the guy in the factory that is seeing his job heading out of the country. It's the woman working two jobs that sees her kids college expenses rising beyong her means. It's the young brown-skinned citizens that are losing their ability to enjoy the Bill of Rights. It's the little children of all colors that will be ingesting higher levels of toxic wastes, because industries' indentured servants in the Senate don't have the moral capacity to stand up and fight. I could puke.

[Nothing Without Hope]

56. I very much agree. A foreigner, Galloway, showed how the neocons must

be confronted. But there is not enough spine to do it. They keep holding out, hoping that they can build good compromises if they play nice. The neocons do not play nice and certainly not to be trusted to honor any kind of agreement. That's one of the fallacies in seeing this much-praised deal as a big win for the Dems. The GOP have given up nothing, but they have gotten what they wanted plus a delay during which they will apply pressure to get the rest of the votes they need to destroy the filibuster.

[merh]

58. Wrong

The GOP made a dealt because they were fooled into believing that the dems had the votes. It's called bluffing. The dems would have stood up to them if they had the votes.

God, why is it you accept the dems as the ones fooled and not the repukes? The 14 that "brokered" the deal were the ones playing both sides against the middle. But don't be fooled, if it had come to a vote, the repukes would have voted with the repukes. It's all about the PNACs.

The glass is half full, it is not empty. We still have the filibuster.

[H2O Man]

62. Yet we will also have

the worst judges that the democrats had been opposing. We will also witness Bush being able to put whoever he wants on the Supreme Court. And I think that we will see Bolton getting an "up" vote. If the republicans moved slightly towards McCain, the democrats moved towards Joe Lieberman. Not a good sign.

[Nothing Without Hope]

44. That is the way I see it too. It's an agreement not to use the filibuster

except in 'extraordinary circumstances" - which the acceptance of these horrible people as lifetime high-ranking judges clearly are - in return for which the GOP say they won't vote to destroy the filibuster unless they feel like it.

I can't see this as a victory. At best, it's a reprieve bought at a terrible price, with disaster still hanging over the heads of anyone who wants to vote their conscience against the neocons.

I don't think the Repub "moderates" would have gone for this scheme unless they thought their party would lose the vote on the filibuster rule. This way they lose nothing and gain a great deal.

[H2O Man]

50. If they are pushed it today,

Frist would have lost public support. He is in better shape today than he was. Democrats who think that we won are in for a surprise.

[Nothing Without Hope]

51. Yes, I think they would have lost the vote and also public support.

The GOP never do anyone any favors. They only pushed this deal because it was better for them then letting things take their course. The leadership has to pretend to distance themselves from it because their RW fundie base is enraged by it. McCain is not a darling of the fundies - he can get away with it.

[H2O Man]

53. McCain no longer has a spine.

He is willing to do whatever he is asked to do by those in power. I am convinced he was playing the role that he was supposed to. And it is a supporting role. I'll never be able to look at McCain without remembering him and George W. hugging and kissing during the campaign.

[Nothing Without Hope]

55. yes, and he has supported unspeakable things since then. He's playing

his role. Since he's not a pet of the Fristian fundies, he could do the "ungodly" work of participatng in this "compromise." The ones like Frist who rely heavily on Fundie support could not, and in fact have to pretend to be grievously disappointed but resolute.

It's all a sham. McCain is a real disappointment compared with what I hoped for from him some years back. I would never trust him.

[H2O Man]

59. There was a time

that I thought he was an honorable man. Those days are long gone.

[Nothing Without Hope]

61. There is a special pain in perceiving that someone you had hope in,

someone thought you could trust to do the right thing, someone who would make a difference in the fight to make things right - is a self-serving, manipulative, craven pol like the rest of them. Even worse than some because he knows what he is doing; he's a clever man and is familiar with the workings of political hyopcrisy.

He has no honor now, and that is a bitter thing. We have to turn to truer people like the indomitable Rep. John Conyers Jr.

[H2O Man]

63. Yep.

I think that the most honest people in the House of Representatives tend to be found in the Black Caucus.

[Nothing Without Hope]

64. Yes, there's no denying that. And there is also Dennis Kucinich and

Louise Slaughter and a few others. The contrast with the slimy people who put their poltical advancement ahead of absolutely EVERYTHING, even to the point of allowing murder in the name of this country, could not be greater or more painful.

And how many of them got into office by a stolen election? They are bound to the evil side from the start, they are beholden and held by the threat of blackmail if their own greed isn't enough.

[bmbmd]

38. Cunning, yes-

but in my eyes, more of a leader than anyone else on that side of the aisle.

[Nothing Without Hope]

45. True, but that's unfortunately not saying much. And the fact that he's

a leader does not endear him to the power-jealous Bush cartel.

I do not trust McCain for a frigging minute. He's much trickier and more intelligent than most of them, and he thinks in longer terms.

[NVMojo]

18. well, I guess this is good news.

[lonestarnot]

32. LOL! Guess his mind will be taken off his cable rip off deals for a while

[johnaries]

37. I just talked to a Repug co-worker.

She is LIVID! She used to love McCain, but now hates him with a PASSION!

Yep, there is a huge chasm developing in the Repuke Party - the Grand Old Party is about to be come the Grand Canyon Party.

[merh]

60. I love that - the Grand Canyon Party

:hi:

Now they are really fracturing, given the fact that Frist insists upon his nuclear option and poopoo's the deal.

ECHOOOOOOOOO

[Skidmore]

39. Jebbie looks like he just

ate the canary. He's perfecting his smirk.

[hippiegranny]

47. there are a whole bunch of "real" people

who are big fans of McCain's. That he is a centrist is a huge appeal to many many Americans. Of course he is reviled by the radical wingnuttery types, but they are not the mainstream. Really, they're not. BTW, I am in AZ.