The Republicans win again, and BIG

[BillZBubb]

They'll get all the appellate judges on the courts, then they'll ram whoever they want into the Supreme Court. There is no opposition party, just a bunch of "colmes's" for the Repug Hannity's to shit on.

Once again the Democrats folded. Totally. Is anyone surprised? I mean really?

[saltpoint]

1. Respectfully disagree. So does Jim Dobson, who said this evening:

"This Senate agreement represents a complete bailout and betrayal by a cabal of Republicans and a great victory for united Democrats. Only three of President Bush’s nominees will be given the courtesy of an up-or-down vote, and it's business as usual for all the rest. The rules that blocked conservative nominees remain in effect, and nothing of significance has changed. Justice Clarence Thomas, Justice Antonin Scalia, and Chief Justice William Rehnquist would never have served on the U. S. Supreme Court if this agreement had been in place during their confirmations. The unconstitutional filibuster survives in the arsenal of Senate liberals."

[FreedomAngel82]

6. Who gives a shit about Dobson?

[saltpoint]

25. He has his hand in the cookie jar of democracy and I say it needs to be --

-- slapped.

I don't like the man one bit and I want a Senate MUCH more free of his influence.

There's nothing to be gained by having assholes like Jim Dobson puppeteering U.S. Senators.

When one of those senators loses a floor fight, as Frist did today, it's news.

[PST]

76. Fuck James Dobson

let him focuss on his own fucking family.
god I hate that man.

[Lex]

8. That shows you that they know they got nailed.

Hahaha.

Now the White House has to be careful about who they nominate to take Rehnquist's place.

[ultraist]

19. No, We got nailed

Their extremists set the line so far to the right that the Dems "compromise" ended up being yet another step to the right. Is that really a win? A step to the right? How far over will Dems be pushed? Is Lieberman drawing lines for the party? WTF?

What's Dean's statement on this? He has stated time and time again, that we should not go Repuke lite.

[okieinpain]

53. thank you. man people around here are just in a defeatist mood.

[makhno]

13. Please understand

That this is a god damn game. A little face saving by the Democrats, a little posturing by Republicans and in the end we get several piece of shit judges and no clear confrontation between an oppressed, disrepsected opposition and a domineering majority.

This was a perfect opportunity to expose the right-wing power grab and the Dems failed with their idiotic "compromise."

Hope you never end up in Owen's court.

[Sir Jeffrey]

20. I was looking forward to complaining about this "compromise"...

but your post stated everything I was thinking of writing. So...um..."ditto", I guess, and I have nothing further to add.

:)

[saltpoint]

26. If these few years of U.S. history were a Skinner box your points --

-- would persuade more, but we live in a continuum in a constitutional republic where, according to the founders, compromise is part of the plan.

I would prefer a perfect world and if I could have it, I would seek it and enjoy it.

But that call hasn't come in yet.

Meanwhile, the filibuster, the mechanism by which minority Democrats can block nominations, is preserved through this next segment of our country's political history.

Dobson is thwarted this evening and may realize that his tinkering with things is not as welcome as he first believed.

Frist's climb to power is slowed and possibly ended. He's not toast exactly, but he's stale bread.

The fundies could back Brownback or Allen, but can either of them knock off McCain, whom the fundies despise, in New Hampshire?

I don't think so.

[makhno]

46. But what good is filibuster

If the minority can't use it, or threaten to use it out of an irrational desire for compromise? The majority also reserves the right to attempt to change the rules again, which will happen if the Democrats raise a stink about any possible SCOTUS appointments.

These are lifetime appointments. The radical, reactionary judges are going to create fascist case law that will persist, poisoning this country's jurisprudence for decades to come. Not to mention countless citizens who are going to suffer as a result of these appointments.

As another poster mentioned earlier tonight, the Republicans got a bird in hand, while the Dems are still chasing theirs through the bush. This isn't compromise, it is capitulation.

[okieinpain]

55. sir, we are the minority. and the minority by a good margin.

they can get all of the judges, bills, and anything else they want. this is a dem victory no matter how you look at it.

unless you're looking at it with your eyes closed.

and by the way can mike jackson, get any whiter. geez.

[makhno]

56. And that's what they're going to do

Radical action was needed - shutting down the travesty that the legislative branch has become - and the Dems failed. Things are humming along as if it were business as usual. We are living a gradual fascist take over of our country and posturing for TV cameras with self-congratulatory remarks on the success of bipartisanship isn't doing anything to counter the drift.

This isn't surprising, as the Democratic leadership has more in common with its Republican peers rather than the majority of this country's citizens, but is is extremely frustrating nonetheless.

[QC]

57. Yeah, shutting down the government worked real well for the GOP in '95.

Excellent strategy there.

[makhno]

58. True, they lost a lot of elections since then

Better not follow hardball Republican tactics, or the Democrats might end up in the minority just like them.

[QC]

59. They lost the presidential election in 1996.

In 1998 they lost House seats, the first time an opposition party had done that in an off-year, second term election in almost 170 years. No, it didn't help them.

[makhno]

60. They ran Bob Dole, for God's sake

But you're right, those 5 seats they lost in the House really showed the anger of the American people over the shutdown.

[saltpoint]

77. It's adjustment. Where are our votes to stop Owen and Brown and Pryor?

They aren't there. We don't have them. That's the way of things now with the GOP the dominant party in both houses of Congress.

More is preserved than lost in this arrangement, and in the short-term of U.S. history, forces aligned to shove out dissent have been waylaid. It's still a contentious body -- much more than it has been since the 2nd World War -- but cooler heads prevailed this time and Rev. Dobson will have to stew a bit out in Colorado.

[TahitiNut]

40. Total f*cking KABUKI.

It's Br'er Rabbit complaining about being thrown into the briar patch.

These people haven't given up a single inch of ground ... not one! The only "complaints" we'll hear from the Reich is that they're not gaining ground faster ... all the way toward a totalitarian Fascist Oligarchy.

They got all three renominated (after being blocked last session) judges that're out of committee ... all three of whom are Federalist Society stooges committed to Fascist rule.

[laheina]

65. In a way, I agree with you.

I don't want to say that it was much ado about nothing, but after all of the watching and waiting, we seemed to be left with the status quo. At least, in the repug dominated, recent, sense.

[laheina]

64. Well

of coarse the hate mongers and perpetual-pot-stirrers that be are gonna make it seem as bad as possible. After all, they weren't going to settle for any less than 100 percent. However, I'm not sure that it was a clear win or loss for either side.

[saltpoint]

75. I think the context of win-loss isn't how to get to this dispute.

It's adjustment politics for everyone. But in the short run, the fundies failed to get their automatic up-and-down vote on Nazi judges and THE CAT BUTCHER looks kind of wobbly as Majority Leader.

[LSK]

81. The unconstitutional filibuster survives in the arsenal of Senate liberals

There is nothing unconstitutional about a filibuster. The constitution does not dictate how the Senate does its business. Please find someone else to support your argument as this Jim Dobson is either clueless or a freeper.

[saltpoint]

82. Dobson's quotation was cited because he puppeteers Bill Frist.

It has bearing on the outcome of a battle over Democrats' right to filibuster unacceptable judicial nominees when the fuel for the fight is provided by fundamentalists like Dobson.

Google him this way: "Dobson, Focus on the Family" -- and before you do, make sure you have a LARGE barf bag handy.

[Goldmund]

2. I nominate them for #1 Conservative Idiots for next week.

[Lex]

3. Nope. The Democrats had no real position from which to "bargain"

but still they managed to get the fillibuster to remain, and sent a big message to White House about their upcoming SCOTUS nominee.

[FreedomAngel82]

7. Then why did the White House

declare this a positive feedback? See post number five from me. This was all smokes and mirrors for something else. Can't Frist still do the "nuclear option"? So what?

[Lex]

12. Jesus--of COURSE the White House declared this "positive"

--that's just spin.

The Democrats had no poisition from which to bargain, but they STILL managed to take the nuclear option off the table for now

AND

they managed to send the White House a BIG message about who they should choose as a replacement for Rehnquist.

[No Michael Savage]

21. They sent the white house a message?

Somehow I doubt Bush will care.

[ultraist]

23. Bush got his up and down vote!

And his radical right judges.

[Ms. Clio]

47. Somehow I think you're right n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. Why shouldn't they? They won.

The Democrats got a fistful of empty promises in return for exactly what Bush wanted.

The "BIG" message they sent the White House is that they well cave when threatened.

[Birthmark]

4. I think that you should re-evaluate.

Had the nuclear option gone forward and succeeded (and it had a good chance of doing so) then what you outline would have indeed happened. Instead, the Repubs have thrown some nominees under the bus in order to just get others a vote. Plus, the Repubs who signed onto this deal are somewhat limited, if not completely neutered, in future cloture votes.

The Dems did far better than I thought that they would.

[FreedomAngel82]

5. You're right

And the republicans will do their extreme rightwing agenda. They will do something to bring the fundies back to them for 2006 and then again in 2008. The White House praised this as a positive development. Need more proof?

[EndElectoral]

9. Agree...Reid should not back down...

Allowing confirmation of Pryor, etc...is shameful...

Repubs will come out of this withe the judges they want, and when the next Supreme Court comes up...we're done. Who cares what Dobson says...Rove is smiling tonight.

[Rowdyboy]

10. What a weirdway to nterpret a real victory....Some are determined to lose

at all costs...

[Lex]

14. Exactly.

[billbuckhead]

15. Frist still can pull the nuclear option,he energizes his base & Dems bless

Enron enabling judges. All this victory declaring is so Neville Chamberlain. Peace in our time, the Republic is saved! I wonder what Gore Vidal thinks of this?

[BillZBubb]

17. Real victory????

They got the three biggest right wing hacks guaranteed seats on the court. The others will soon follow.

Plus, they can still use the nuclear option any time they want in the future--and they will. They will simply declare the Democrats violated the agreement. You'll see.

What did we get? Oh, that's right: a deal so they wouldn't do the nuclear option now. WHOOPIE!

This was a TOTAL defeat for progressives and anyone who cares about the Democratic party. The reason why we keep losing all the time is because so many in this party are in denial and are always claiming victories in the face of defeat.

[Rowdyboy]

35. Sorry, but you're wrong...At most, 2 of the 3 judges will be confirmed....

Possibly only one. And thats ALL THEY GET. Meanwhile, Preacher Dobson is humiliated (!!!!!!!!!!!!!), Frist is destroyed as a future candidate, BFEE loses their power grab, the filibuster lives to fight another day, and Rethugs will look like fools when they start making threats again.

The fundies under Dobson/Robertson/Baur are shitting their pants in rage and some few on our side are bitching about the fact that we gave up on one or two judges after we've already given them 208.

[TahitiNut]

43. What on earth makes you believe Owens, Rogers Brown, or Pryor ...

... won't get at least 51 votes to confirm on the floor of the Senate?

Would you like to make a little wager? I'm betting ALL THREE will get 51 votes or more.

Bet?


For what it's worth, beginning a post with "Sorry" and proceeding to express a baseless personal opinion is the height of pretentious, condescending arrogance.

[Rowdyboy]

52. Not sure if we can do that but I'll pm you...

Mm'kay...

[TahitiNut]

61. We're on.

:thumbsup:

[QC]

30. Some folks are addicted to drama. Give them a chance to weep and wail

and gnash their teeth and they'll chew the scenery like Joan Crawford in "Straight Jacket."

[Rowdyboy]

36. Its just so funny....We kicked their asses and these guys are whining....

Dobson is fucked, Frist is screwed, the Filibuster is safe and-if they're dumb enough to try it again, we can really skewer them as hypocrites.

Sorry, I fail to see the down side. Two (at MOST) mosre nutcase judges are no big deal. Hell, Phyliss Owen would go on the 5th District court which is alread chock full of Rethugs. Its the difference in a 12-3 decision and a 13-2. BFD....

[QC]

39. "Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my closeup!"

Honestly, it's a dramaqueen thing. This is a golden opportunity for the usual suspects to wallow in the glory of martyrdom again.

Don't worry. Soon all our little Norma Desmonds will tire themselves out with all the emoting and hit the hay, and then clearer heads will prevail.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. "licked" being the operative word. As differentiated from "kicked".

[Ms. Clio]

68. Yeah, that Russ Feingold, WHAT a drama queen!

[QC]

69. Russ feingold posts on DU and has been in a state of hysteria all evening

starting up one identical thread after another making the very same cookie-cutter complaints about this deal?

Well, you learn something new every day!

[Ms. Clio]

72. Yes, everyone who thinks this is not a big huge enormous victory

is "hysterical" and making cookie cutter complaints.

I had no idea you had such a low opinion of Mr. Feingold.

[QC]

73. I actually like Feingold, having lately forgiven him for making Ashcroft

our Attorney General. Good guy and someone we should listen to.

My exchange with Rowdyboy had to do with the orgy of negativism going on here at DU. How you turned that into a commentary on Russ Feingold is beyond me.

[Ms. Clio]

74. Because you are characterizing legitimate concerns;

concerns that are shared by Feingold, as an "orgy of negativism." I don't think it's accurate or fair.

[Pachamama]

11. I'm sick to my stomach...I'm not surprised...just got the confirmation of

what I've suspected about our so called Democrats that are supposed to represent us....

And who is in charge anyway? The seven Dems that cut the deal with the Moderate Repubs or Harry Reid and Dick Durbin? WTF?

It was a big win for the Repukes, big loss for the Dems and a medium loss for Frist....

But, I believe this is far worse than if the nuclear option had been implemented...I mean, now the Repukes get all the judges, they have neutered the Dems and they can still at any time implement the nuclear option....if they had actually gone ahead and fought this and lost, then atleast they would have had their integrity and respect in tact. Also, it might have served as the wake up call to Americans....

Now, like many Americans, I'm sitting at home feeling helpless and knowing that our Dems blinked in the game of Chicken and made a deal with the Devil....

[Spiffarino]

16. Mike DeWine (R-Asshole), in a press gaggle this evening, said...

"We reserve the right to exercise the Constitutional option."

That sums it up for me. They get the extremist judges they wanted, make the Dems promise not to block any more except under "extreme circumstances", and then decide that anything the Dems do is a breach of good faith and go nuclear anyway.

Our Democratic leadership has failed. They refuse to acknowledge - or perhaps don't comprehend - the reality that the Republican leaders have no honor, no ethics, and care only about winning.

[ultraist]

22. The pendulum continues to swing right...n/t

[sellitman]

18. * agrees with you.

Our boys CAVED IN once again. :banghead:

[Tux]

24. That is why

I was always registered as Independant. I love the progressive political philosophy but I knew Democrats were unfocused and reactionary without a set foundation to stand on. Thanks to those Dems, democracy is now dead. Thanks for the hard work you Dem Senators did..

[Mr_Spock]

27. I couldn't disagree more strongly

But there's no arguing with the negative arguements - we'll see

[Spiffarino]

28. There's no point in arguing about it

We may see who was right in due time. At the moment, all we have to go on are gut feelings.

And right now, my guts feel awful.

[Mr_Spock]

33. My guts felt worse before thinking about fighting people

For real fighting - not this internet bravado crap - I mean the real world - at least I can relax and all is not lost - yet...

[Spiffarino]

66. True 'nuff

I have felt for a long time, though, that real fighting is what will have to happen before things will change. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but lots of people had their heads busted taking to the streets to end the Vietnam War. And this country is more politically polarized now than it was back then.

There is an undercurrent of anger in America that is palpable and that is beginning to surface like it did before the huge protests of the 60s and 70s. The difference now is that there are those on the extreme right who consider this to be not just a fight over political ideals, but a holy war.

[Mr_Spock]

80. Yes, I agree it will come to this.

My problem is - and I still can't even believe this sometimes - but many of my liberal friends are not even aware of "real ID" & the filibuster fight. Kind of hard to rally people who aren't paying attention. I'm hoping that this story and the realization of what "real ID" is leading to will wake more people up to join the fight - let's hope people start noticing what's going on...

[wiggs]

29. Too early to tell.

If one of the radical judicial candidates fails, then the dems win because it will be clear they were trying to save the country from a poor nominee.

If all candidates are confirmed, then Frist and conservatives win because the dems were just being obstructionists trying to keep qualified jurists out.

I'm HOPING that the dems were thinking far enough ahead and horsetraded the votes necessary to put down one of the candidates. I'm sure no one would cut a deal without knowing how this will turn out in the end.

[spindoctor]

31. That is not how their supporters feel

In my humble opinion, that is the best measure of success. In either other scenario, they would have gotten all seven (some say five) nominees for sure. Our best defense against Frist's evil scheme was that they would come out looking really, really bad. Sorry, but that's not going to fly. First of all, because the unaffiliated people don't give a damn about what happens in the Senate. Secondly, because if they don't look bad by now, a little power struggle in the Senate is not going to tip the scale.

No, the more I think about it, this is a 2-pointer for our team.

[WilliamPitt]

32. I don't think you know what you are talking about

I think the knee-jerk instinct towards negative hysteria is ever-present on this board.

I think liberals have gotten used to losing, and see defeat in the face of victory.

I think a good compromise makes everyone mad, so the fact that you are mad tells me this is a good compromise.

Oh, and also...

1. They won't get all their judges on the court. (that was part of the deal, you should read it)

2. They won't ram whoever they want onto SCOTUS. (they saved the filibuster and retained the terms under which it will be used, which means SCOTUS)

Your conclusions are 100% bass-ackwards.

But go on with your bad self.

[Rowdyboy]

37. Will, am I right that Phyliss Owen would go on the 5th Circuit Court

of Appeals which is already VERY reliably conservative? Her vote would, at best, just add one vote to the conservative majority there? Under the agreement, Dobson loses, Frist loses, and we keep the Filibuster. I don't understand how anyone could honestly and fairly spin this as a loss for Democrats.

[WilliamPitt]

54. Keep reading

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. Spin and humbug. We lost. We "won" nothing.

They won't get "all" of their judges? Just the ones that the Dem "leadership" called unacceptable.

They won't ram whoever they want onto SCOTUS? The nuclear option is intact to be used as they feel fit.

The Dems folded again. Just like the IWR vote. The republicans made empty, facile, promises, and the Dems used them as cover for their cowardly "compromises" that aren't compromises at all.

Tell me again what we "won".

[makhno]

50. Some people have a hard time being on the losing team

The need to fabricate good news is tremendous after the several shameful defeats the Democrats have suffered this session.

[makhno]

49. Hope you never find yourself in Owen's court

But if you do, I hope you remember the great victory the Democrats achieved tonight.

Aside from that, what exactly prevents the Republicans from mounting a similar challenge to the filibuster rule in the future? A promise? Your hope that the Democrats will find another compromise to place an acceptable SCOTUS judge? Will that judge be as acceptable to true liberals as the scumbags that got selected tonight?

I think some liberals have gotten so used to losing that they cling to any news as a sign of victory. Bankruptcy bill? A necessary compromise! 100-0 vote to fund illegal war efforts? A brilliant tactical effort by a Democratic leadership conscious of electoral pressures! It really is pretty pathetic.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. No, no, we won!! Just like the Czechs won at Munich.

When Chamberlain made that swell compromise with Hitler.

[merh]

38. Disagree!

The repukes blinked, the dems held their own and won. We still have the filibuster, 2 repukes have screwed themselves as far as their base is concerned (Frist & McCain), the admin realized that all the sheeple won't follow them into the ocean.

We still have the filibuster and the option to shut down congress should we need.

Dems won and they didn't even have to fire a shot! :woohoo:

[jbnow]

63. But if these 3 judges aren't "extraordinary circumstances"

then what would meet that standard?

They could only filibuster more glaringly right wing activist judges?

Not sure we won or lost, not sure how we can "win" while bush administration is here. They are so indifferent to what is good for the country (let alone the world) and they barely put up a facade anymore. We are still the minority. Winning right now pretty much depends on some republicans showing some balls and heart and soul against the pressure.

Perhaps this compromise shows that some will.

[merh]

79. Being the minority

winning right now means being in possession of our weapons and surviving. We still have the filibuster and the shut down options. What is extraordinary to me may not be to you, so the word extraordinary really has no significance, given it is not really defined.

[oasis]

41. Yippeeee!!! There's no way but up from here.

:party::bounce::party:

[KnowerOfLogic]

48. Yep; what a joke. For a minute there i thought dems were going to stand up

but i should have known better.

[EC]

51. Why don't we just wait and see how many of those judges

get up votes before we start complaining? There could be more to this deal, when these judges come up for the vote... You think? :think:

[Ms. Clio]

62. Yeah, okay, just like some people waited to see if Iraq had WMDs

While others knew long before the war that it did not.

[Democat]

67. I'm still waiting for the backlash against the Swift Boat ads

And for Al Gore to fight back!

[makhno]

70. Thanks for the laugh

Good note to go to bed on, after an infuriating few hours. :)

[NVMojo]

71. I am worried about when the witch-burning start .....

[mopaul]

78. strange how both sides feel like they got fucked over

but in my book, we got fucked over harder.