OMFG People. OK. You don't like the deal. What do you think we

[xultar]

would have gotten?

Using your powers of intellect. What realistic deal do you think we would have gotten the Thugs to clamp on to?

or

Would you rather have had the :nuke: option pulled and have gotten nothing and let Frist win?

Let's hear it. What's your solution?

[SW FL Dem]

1. Thank you!

While I am not thrilled that there is a chance the 3 judges will get confirmed, I am very happy that the compromise saved the filibuster and that the RW is totally pissed at Frist right now. James Dobson is having a conniption fit. That to me is a minor victory.

[xultar]

5. In this climate without a majority and in a hole this is as good as we

are going to get.

Maybe this will get us on the streets for 2006's elections.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. I'd call Dobson getting his panties in a bunch a MAJOR victory.

Frist is Dobson's bitch. He promised the fundies that he'd kill the filibuster so they could get their wackjob judges rubber-stamped and he failed to deliver. Dobson will have Frist's guts for garters. And I will love every minute of it.

[lonestarnot]

22. and thankk you again!

[derby378]

2. You know what the solution is as well as I do

You shut the motherfucker down and bring the Republicans to their knees.

But not now. NO! Instead, we have been betrayed by the DLC. And the Republicans still hold the nuclear option over our heads. Joe Lieberman has become America's version of Neville Chamberlain. "Peace in our time," indeed.

[FreedomAngel82]

6. Exactly!

We're just fucked all over.

[Quixote1818]

15. I think part of the deal was that they could not use the nuclear option

at all even for Supreme Court nominees. They got spanked.

[smartvoter]

20. This is correct. nt

[ultraist]

35. They can't use the nuke options for any judicial appointments

But they can claim that the filibuster doesn't rise to the new criteria of "extraordinary circumstance" in order to prevent a filibuster. So what's the difference?

It sounds to me like nuke option which morphed into Constitutional option has now morphed into "extraordinary circumstance." But each carry essentially the same power: A FORCED up and down vote on judicial nominees.

[BrewerJohn]

21. They'll go back on that in a hot second

if they think that they need to and that they can get away with it. And with the media on their side, they probably could.

I mean, come on! How many instances of perfidy on the R side do we have to witness before we get the picture?

[tkmorris]

51. That is NOT true

They can use the nuke option any time they want to, and have agreed only not to vote in favor of it in the case of 2 nominees. Any new judicial appointments that come up can be filibustered by the Dems if they feel it qualifies as an "extreme" case. If the Repubs disagree however, they reserve the right to vote for a rule change disallowing filibusters for judicial appointments at that time (the nuke option).

Realistically we've gained nothing except the word of 7 Republican moderates that they will play nice. Unless of course they think the Dems are being unreasonable, in which case they don't have to.

[Hippo_Tron]

25. The gang of 14 wouldn't have allowed it unfortunately

I wanted a shutdown too. I wanted a shutdown because it would make the country take a very hard look at the motherfuckers they put in power. Unfortunately there will always be those who are willing to compromise over stand up for ideals.

[onenote]

32. that worked so well for the repugs during Clinton's term - not

Shutting down the govt would absolutely blow up in our faces. No ifs ands or buts about it. The people weren't paying that much attention to the filibuster debate. But the one thing that makes people crazy is the idea of all these rich politicos sitting on their asses doing nothing. And the Dems would get blamed (just like the repugs did in the 1990s).

So thank you, I think I'd just as soon not hand total victory to the repugs by alienating the middle of the road voter who we need (and are beginning to get).

onenote

[merh]

33. Don't you get it, they saved the shut down for when they need it

the most. For the SCOTUS appointments. So they still have the filibuster and the shut down options.

They have survived to fight another day and they took out two repukes and outed the slimmy DLC pieces of filth.

It's a wonderful victory. We are, after all, the minority! We could have lost it all.

:woohoo:

[ultraist]

37. Nuke option has morphed into "extraordinary circumstance"

Define "extraordinary circumstance." IMO, they still have the power to force an up and down vote.

Chances are, there will be one SCOTUS Justice appointed this session. This deal only applies to this session.

One new Justice doesn't put Roe in jeopardy, according to most legal scholars. Many say, that even two conservative Justices doesn't put it in jeopardy because most Justices wouldn't overturn such a noted, long standing ruling. So the 'saved Roe' argument really doesn't hold water.

[merh]

39. Oh please, like everything else,

extraordinary circumstance can be whatever they want it to be.

Rehnquist and O'Connor won't retire for fear of the fundies, they may be someone relieved to know that the fundies grip has been loosened and that members of the repuke party have defied the weed and have defied the fundies.

Roe is in trouble if extreme appointments are made. I don't know who "many" of the "many say" are so I really can't legitimately dispute what "many" think. I do know, that since we are the minority, the fact that we forced a compromise on the filibuster is remarkable. Had it been an up or down vote based on party, we would have lost. That is a no brainer. Repukes are turning on the weed-n-chief.

Their power is slipping and they know it.

[LoverOfLiberty]

3. No matter how we wish it weren't so

we are down 55-45 in the Senate. The fact that we were able to force a compromise being down 10 senators is an amazing achievment. We didn't get all we wanted but we didn't lose it all either. I think that some (so called) moderate Republicans who helped broker this deal were going to vote for the nuclear option.
Like I said, we may not like it, but it is far, far more than we could have ended up with.

[FreedomAngel82]

8. But what did the democrats

have to sacrifice? You can't compromise with the nazi's for anything! What do the republicans have in mind to draw their base back in? Ending Roe V Wade or something worse?

[longship]

12. It's simple. We got *nothing*

The Repugs got their judges. All we got was that the Senate didn't get figuratively destroyed.

When a terrorist holds the Senate hostage, and you make a deal that gives them all they want, you haven't won because the terrorist will do it again and again and again. Only the next time they'll just pull the trigger. Then, you might think back to today and ask yourself, "What did we do?"

[Hippo_Tron]

28. We got the other 2 and Bush ultimately withdrew the others

We got 7 out of 10.

[TankLV]

48. You mean "they" - the repukes got ALL bunkerboy's nominees so far

except 2!

2!

And the didn't pass a SINGLE Clinton nominee his last couple years if not the entire second term.

THINK ABOUT IT!

No other way around it - the dems got screwed big time.

Bully: You got 100 dollars. Give it all to me.

Dems: OK, but I'll give you just 98.

Bully: Fuck You. Now MAYBE I won't beat you up over the last 2 dollars.

Dems: Oh, thank you, very much, Mr. Bully.

See a pattern that has developed here?!?!

[charlyvi]

4. Thanks here too!

Reading some of these threads, it sounds like people actually think we had something to bargain with. As though a shutdown Senate and loss of the filibuster would be winning! It may be winning the battle, but not the war. We come off as the adults in Washington--no mean trick.

[xultar]

14. People are forgetting they did this in preparation for the Supremes

not for the lower court judges.

We don't have shit. As a matter of fact we have negative shit. A factor of -10 shit and we came out even @ zero 0.

I know these folks would much rather have us look worse than the Rethugs. THAT IS NOT AN OPTION!

[mitchtv]

19. you are correct charlyvi

that is my take on it. I beats all of thembeing ok'd without a fillibuster. Remember Newt? heshut down the place. It is time for the delegations to return to their districts and/ or take balls lessons from Boxer and Galloway. Time for Rallies

[walldude]

9. My solution? Using my intellect?

Ok my solution would be to have the entire goddamn administration brought up on charges. War crimes, shady financial dealings, lying to Congress, misappropriation of funds, lying to the 911 commission, lying to the American people. Selling Americas soul to giant corporations. Gee what else do I have to be happy about today :eyes: Oh yeah, the 6 car bombs in 24 hours. I'm sure those 45 dead and 145 wounded are extremely happy that the administration hasn't managed to totally dismantle the constitution yet. What my intellect tells me is that we have been beaten down for so long that we wrongly rejoice at the smallest victory.

[xultar]

17. Didn't I say something about reality? Not some dreampt up shit?

:shrug:

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

10. frickin' frist

is toast with the repugs. You can bet dobson is making frickin'frist crawl on his hands & knees. That is a win.

Some just don't understand what it means to be the minority party. Repugs held all the cards. This was about as good as it gets. Too many are thinking that if the filibuster went bust, the repugs would over play & piss off the whole country (other than the wingnuts). The danger was too great. What kind of damage would dumbya do before people saw what was going on? Most people are not consumed by politics.

best

[deadparrot]

11. Thank you.

It's a damn good deal, considering our political position.

Those who say we should have shut the Senate down...how do we know that would have changed anything? There's no guarantees in any situation, especially when you're dealing with extremists.

[vickie]

13. Xultar is absolutely right. This is a very good deal for us.

Remember we are a minority (with a 10 seat deficit) who retains the right to filibuster and the Majority leader, Dobson/Frist (whos' stated objective was to end the filibuster) was publicly humiliated and reduced to babbling on the Senate floor (after an embarrasing loss of control over his Majority caucus).

Harry Reid looks like a genius. A few winger judges get through, so the deal isn't perfect, but it made a complete fool of Dobson/Frist. He (Frist) truly took a body blow tonight and his weakness makes Reid that much stronger.

We have to take our victories where we get them. This is a win. Listen to all the right wing screaming currently in progress and guess who they think won this gamble.

[still_one]

16. no more deals

we have given away enough

my view is let them overturn roe v wade
let them overturn social security
let them ban stem cell research
let them ban civil unions
let them censor cable and satellite broadcasts

In other words, give them the rope to hang themselves

If we stood our ground, I think in 2006, they would be destroyed in the election.

[morgan2]

18. all or nothing

I think either extreme would have been better. Force the Republicans to show their true face by drastically changing the rules to fit their desires. Not to mention our Democracy does need some fundamental change, why not get the ball rolling.

[PowerToThePeople]

23. I would rather have made them drop the bomb.

this will be a small blurp on the activist blog scene. MSM sheeple won't have a clue as to what happened. They won't ever truly know how evil these people are and to what extremes they will go to. That is unless we force them to go there and not just give what they want to them..

[IndianaGreen]

24. Screw the appeasement deal! Shutdown the Senate!

That's what Harry Reid was prepared to do, shutdown all Senate business. No Bush agenda, period!

[wiggs]

26. Shutting down congress may have been a strong hand

Pugs in congress (who don't represent the majority of people in US) try to change longstanding rules to eliminate the bipartisan heritage of the senate and grab power. Having no choice, dems shut down congress.

I think this was a strong position for the dems...protecting minority input. They are the underdogs here, pitted against bullies who just blundered against Schiavo, who just had their party leader outed as having lied about Iraq intelligence, who just legislated bankruptcy laws to protect corporations right before thousands of UAL pensioners were stiffed, and who has very low approval ratings.

Shutting down could have been played well...after all pugs in congress altered ethics rules to benefit DeLay and had to retract...and polls favored the dems on this too, easily.

So I think the dems had a very strong hand. And I'm thinking they used it to get more than we know. I'm thinking they found some votes against one or more radical judicial nominees with moderate republicans. Otherwise, Frist gets all candidates confirmed and VALIDATES THAT THE CANDIDATES ARE STRONG AND THAT THE DEMS FILLIBUSTER THREAT WAS NOT IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE COUNTRY. If one of the candidates fail, then dems were right to hang onto fillibuster...THAT'S WHAT I HOPE THEY DEALT FOR.

And I believe they could have gotten at least as much had they shut down the senate.

[Zen Democrat]

41. I don't know. Shutting down the Senate could have backfired on us.

Republicans could claim that the obstructionist Democrats kept them from passing all that good-ole conservation legislation.

But this way, the Republicans have to go forward with playing their evil hand -- social security, anti-environmental policy masquerading as an energy bill, fake health care legislation which they haven't been able to think up yet, nothing for the economy which is about to tank -- with impending civil war in Iraq and riots in Afghanistan, not to mention the opium explosion -- the people, other than the 35% religious cult, will now have good reason to turn the bums out next year.

[Zorra]

27. Frist did win. We got absolutely nothing but empty promises from people

that we already know are total corrupt and untrustworthy liars.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. Well, they could have tried doing the right thing for a change.

Instead of caving and pissing on themselves.

[Toucano]

30. I agree. But I ain't dancin' in the streets.

We would have lost and lost big without the compromise.

And Frist is weakened because he demanded all or nothing, so he comes away a loser.

Bush is weakened because he demanded all or nothing too, so he comes away a loser.

Cheney, Gonzales - both losers.

I'm not happy those judges will likely be confirmed. Not at all.

But that was going to happen anyway. We knew that on November 3rd.

[aion]

31. The Dems lost, but we still have a republic.

The Senate has preserved the sanctity of their own rules. As such, the Chancellor (errr...President) was unable to destroy/dissolve it.

Unfortunately, this preservation came at a cost. 3 judges will certainly go through now, and we should beware if we find ourselves living in the areas covered by their respective courts.

I am not sure what can be said of the other 2 judges. I suppose Frist could try this again, but I am rather certain that this move has cost them a bit of political capital.

[The_Casual_Observer]

36. A one party republic! Bust out the flags and noise makers!

[The Kicker]

34. The still somewhat conscious frog

was pondering an exit of the increasingly uncomfortable pot of water.The boilers had to turn down the heat a few degrees for a few minutes.The boiling process will resume full force when the frog reaches the appropriate level of unconsciousness.

[ultraist]

38. Yeppers!

A slow quiet death.

And as part of our prize, we've got three radical conservative judges! :bounce:

[aaronnyc]

40. Great question

People here seem to have a knee-jerk reaction, that any time a compramise is made that we are somehow giving in to the Republicans. Given what the Republicans were threatening - it would seem that they actually gave into us (slightly). Would people here have prefered that we had stood tough, and risked losing the fillibuster?

I checked out some right-wing and message board, and they are all outraged at the GOP for "giving in to the Democrats." Goes to show you, that it is a good thing overly emotional people on message boards don't deal in negotiations.

[PowerToThePeople]

42. uhhh..

Goes to show you, that it is a good thing overly emotional people on message boards don't deal in negotiations.


Deals with the Devil are bad.....

[The Kicker]

43. You could have said

"hysterical people".You know how those libruls are always gettin' all hysterical all the time.(sarcastically posted)

[aaronnyc]

44. But what was the alternative?

In politics - deals are necessary (even those with the devil). People here want to stand on principle, but the sad truth is that in politics there is little room for principle. Had we stood on principle and absolutely refused to compromise, we probably would have lost the filibuster, and given the GOP 1 Party control. That is not a risk that I would be willing to take

Don't forget: we are the minority Party. When the minority Party refuses to compromise, they will lose almost every time. Anytime a minority Party can get a relatively even deal (as I believe we did over the filibuster issue) it should be seen as a small victory.

[PowerToThePeople]

47. Don't hit me. Here's my lunch money.. n/t

[aaronnyc]

49. Compromise is not necessarily a sign of cowardice

As a minority Party in a two party system, we have no choice but to compromise when the opportunity presents itself. If we had allowed the Repubs to get rid of the filibuster, we wouldn't have had any ground to stand on the future; the GOP would have controlled everything. I would have been furious if DNC leadership had allowed the filibuster to die, because they were too concerned with standing on principle.

BTW, I think the fact that the right-wing of the GOP hates the deal is indicative of the fact that we did not cave in to the Republicans.

[KnowerOfLogic]

45. Right; and dems had to support the war because it was going to happen anyw

Jeezus Christ, did the possibility of going down with dignity ever occur to them? I don't know what we would have 'gotten' if we stood our ground, but i know what we wouldn't have lost - our credibility, integrity, and self-respect.

[TankLV]

46. The nuke option would have bit them in the end the next time

Dems win back control.

Healthcare and gay rights get passed, along with liberal and progressive dem judges, and the repukes can't do a thing.

Think about it.

We lost big time on this one.

[OneBlueSky]

50. two words describe this deal . . . terrible, and necessary . . . n/t

.