Anyway you frame it, Frist Lost.

[spanone]

Frist lost this deal, he promised the right wing Christian nuts that he would eliminate the filibuster and did not deliver. They will crucify him. (I hope)

[tsuki]

1. No 2008? Too Bad. Guess they'll have to run with Newt. Oh my.

Who'd of thunk it?

:sarcasm:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

2. No, Frist won

Take a clear look. The Democrats caved, three wildass ideologues who clearly lack judicial temperament, but have plenty of disdain for the Constitution and people like us, will get their votes on the Senate floor without the pesky interference of a filibuster, and the Democrats are now nicely lubricated for their final sodomization when Fuckface nominates Scalia to be Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

Frist won. We got screwed. What a joke the Democrats are.

[Robbien]

9. No, Frist lost because the Freeper fundies wanted it all their way. NOW!

They wanted the Dems silenced and a clear path for their extremist judges. And they wanted it NOW.

But Frist couldn't deliver.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

14. Do you honestly think this is over?

No, this is a process, and Frist is posturing, setting up people (like you) who actually think this is ended.

What do you think happens when Rehnquist retires?

Think long-term.

We got screwed. America got screwed. The rightwingers got everything they wanted, because their next judicial nominees will be far worse than what's going to voted on shortly.

[Robbien]

34. If the right wingnut brownshirts had been able to

pressure the moderate GOPers to vote the nuclear option, the Dems would be dead in the water on all future nominations.

It was highly possible the moderate GOPers would have caved and then America would really have been screwed.

So now when Rehnquist retires the Democrats still has the filibuster option if an extremist is nominated.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

46. Your last line is correct,

in that it invokes the "extraordinary circumstance" option detailed in the pending agreement.

But - here's the kicker - who do you think decides what constitutes "extraordinary"? It's not delineated anywhere, and it won't be, and my guess is that it will be defined by the Senate Majority Leader or the President of the Senate.

Guess who they are.

The rightwingnut browshirts won this one, believe me, and Frist is their hero.

[Robbien]

50. But now the discussion will be on what constitutes extraordinary

which is a discussion on the merits.

By this agreement the GOP just endorsed the filibuster and will have no intellectual capacity to argue against its use later on. The rabid right's momentum has been lost.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

56. Don't believe that for a second

There's no indication as to who defines "extraordinary." Think for a minute - why wouldn't it be the Majority Leader of the Senate, and/or the President of the Senate?

Guess who they are.

[Zen Democrat]

75. I heard tonight that each senator can decide extraordinary circumstances

[OldLeftieLawyer]

57. No, it's never going to be a "discussion on the merits"

It's a purely procedural matter, and, as such, it will be handled by the leaders of the Senate - Majority Leader, Minority Leader, President of the Senate.

Guess who wins that one (under this current mid-administration)?

Do not let yourself be lulled into a mistaken and false sense of security, believing that the rightwingnuts have lost one iota of their ooomph. They're stronger than ever, and, have you noticed, three ideologues have made it to the Senate floor, where they should never have gone, and the Democrats, yet again, have bent over.

[Clark2008]

61. While I agree with you that Americans lost - big time, the wingnuts

in Freeperland are NOT singing Frist's praises right now.
I've seen some postings on this board and others from Free Republic and they're PISSED, with a capital "P," at Frist right now. They think he caved.

Personally, it sucks that Americans now have to put up with the, at least three and probably more, wingnuts the theo-cons are gonna send up to the bench. UNLESS the moderate Republicans get tired of this shit and vote with the Dems.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

15. There is no agreement yet

That's a draft, and, as an old Washington attorney, I have a perspective that you might appreciate differently if you were sitting in my seat.

When there's an agreement, tell me what you think will happen when Rehnquist retires ...................

[lancdem]

21. The WH and Frist never wanted any deal

[bvar22]

33. The WhiteHouse and Frist wanted MORE radical judges...

..on the bench.

The WhiteHouse and Frist GOT more radical judges on the bench.

The DEMS got NOTHING.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

51. Well, freepers heads are exploding in anger.

And so is yours, apparently.

Therefore, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that neither party "won" by any large (or even noticeable) margin.

But then again, Sean Hannity is pissed off, and Robert Byrd is HAPPY. Very happy. Maybe one side did win. Unfortunately, you're too partisan and short-sighted to see that.

[bvar22]

70. MOI???Shortsighted???

My eye is on the ball, not the cheerleaders.

After the smoke clears:

The Republicans have 3 fanatical Corporatist Judges on the Federal Bench

The Democrats Have NOTHING that they didn't have yesterday.



You can watch the cheerleaders and spin. I will watch the ball.

[TahitiNut]

54. Amen. It's totally beyond any sane and rational ken to pretend ...

... that the Democrats didn't sell give away the ranch. For a sack of shit. The Reich takes eith ultra-rightwing nominees REFUSED by a prior Senate, not taking "No" for an answer, and re-nominates them. The Democrats, rightfully and according to the rules, threatens to block them. The Reich threatens to Go Outlaw and throw out the Rules. The Quisling Democrats capitulate and achieve NOTHING. It's a surrender and retreat. Cowards!

[lonestarnot]

72. I think I have to disagree tonight leftie....

You left out a very important detail and that is they OWN all the machinery!

[SmokingJacket]

3. I hope you're right.

Call me cynical... but I'm going to wait and see on this one.

If they get all their freakjudges and appoint antiRoe/Wade judges without a peep from the Dems... well, he basically won, didn't he?

[JDPriestly]

4. Yeah!

But this is about the judges, and we end up with no compromise on them . . . That's not what I call a victory for our side.

[bvar22]

5. Anyway I look at it, the Democrats capitulated.

The Democrats come out of this deal with NOTHING. They now have EXACTLY the same power they had before the deal.

The Republicans NOW have 3 MORE Fanatic Corporatist judges on the bench (and more pending. The rest have been taken off the table).

How can that be a win????

Do you honestly believe the Republicans won't pull this club out of the bag the very next time they want something?

[ulysses]

8. at least

they didn't come out with less.

Yeah, I know. But still.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

18. We came out with less

Three bad nominees go to a vote that should have been precluded by filibusters.

We lost. And we lost ugly.

[ulysses]

28. should have, perhaps.

But would they?

Maybe my expecations are lower these days. ;-)

[Pushed To The Left]

40. Check out the right-wing message boards

They are IRATE!! They are turning against the moderate Republicans big time. I am disappointed about the 3 judges too, but if the moderate Republicans were willing to stand up to Frist on this nuclear option--earning the wrath of the party and the hardcore right--maybe they will also have the guts to vote "NO" on those three judges! I know it's a long shot, but it would be very satisfying if it happened!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

47. Yeah, but,

they're idiots who know and understand nothing short of absolute devastation.

The nuances of what Frist pulled off tonight escape them, as does the concept of air, water, thinking, or walking upright.

Now, GET AWAY FROM THOSE MESSAGE BOARDS! You're liable to catch something.

[KittyWampus]

13. The GOP Would Have Had ALL The Nominees & Dems Had NO Filibuster

why is it so hard for some DU'ers to grasp something so simple?

[bvar22]

26. would have....would have....would have....

You sure???

Today they have 3 more radical judges than yesterday. The Dems got to preserve exactly what they had yesterday.

These 3 fanatic Corportist judges NOW have the aegis and sanction of the Democratic Party....kinda like the Iraq War. How can the Party now oppose their fanaticism from the bench?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

27. It's hardly that simple

You have to watch the process, the timing, and the final (proposed) solution.

What, exactly, did the Democrats "win"?

Nothing.

And the Republicans got three very dangerous ideologues who shouldn't even have been nominated to the Senate floor for a vote - where they will be confirmed, and we will be the poorer for it.

Check the ages of those nominees - they're frighteningly young, and will be in their jobs as judges for a long, long time.

[nankerphelge]

37. Yes indeed..

I hope you are old, old leftie lawyer; you'll only have to put up with them for awhile. All us young leftie lawyers will have to put up with them for our entire career. I knew I should have gone to film school instead...

[OldLeftieLawyer]

48. Old enough

to have celebrated Roe v. Wade while I was in my first year of law school.

Old enough to have watched the button-down mind of Rehnquist do harm to so much we hold dear - especially that Fourth Amendment.

Old enough not to have to take any more cases to the SC.

But still young enough to lament for you and your generation, and to hope your strength and fortitude will prevail in a cause that will always be noble.

No, you should not have gone to film school. Just as I'm glad I got my doctorate in clinical psych, but loved my life practicing law.

Fuerte, child. You'll do wonderful things.

[Hardrada]

58. I'm glad I became a writer (primarily history)

and not a lawyer since all these events will make for enthralling narrative at some future point. My take on the Sixties will be less dramatic than these shennanigans. My view here is that the moderate repugs got a taste of power and may not cede it back to the neofascists.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

63. You could try doing both

I'm a published novelist - I write what's called "literary fiction" (not lawyer novels) - and my life's work as a lawyer has given me a remarkable perspective on just about everything that's happened during the past three decades.

Writing, I think, is just an ancillary to things that are of a different substance. At least, that's been my experience. The action is on the field; the people on the sidelines never really get the whole story.

My take on what happened in the Senate today is that the far rightwingnuts still own it all, and the moderates were simply assuaged/cowed into not swinging their votes over to the Democrat's side. The power of the incumbency is a great power, indeed. There's lots to be given away in exchange for a vote.

[Hardrada]

65. I'm a published historian

who is dabbling in a sort of fictional autobiography at present (actually more a portrait of the times). I could not possibly have been on the field for my history so it is research & more research, interviews and more interviews. I personally think the Xian right shot their wad. BUT i guess we will just have to see how this all pans out. As I might have indicated, I do hope I live long enough to gain a proper historical perspective on all this. Not as long as Gibbon but perhaps longer than Shirer.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

69. Think big...............

Live forever, and tell everyone the truth.

Historians are the diviners (and tellers) of the secrets and learning the secrets just might protect future generations..............

[Hardrada]

74. If they read us.

We can only hope(and keep on with our projects nonetheless).

[tigereye]

60. I knew there was a reason I liked you!

now there are several!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

64. You're awfully sweet

Thank you ...........

[Robbien]

19. No, its a win. The momentum for a nuclear option is lost.

Since the right wingbat brownshirts were putting heavy pressure on the moderate GOPers, it was reasonable to believe they may have caved this time. The right wingnuts won't be able to build this kind of momentum again.

The rights of the minority has been preserved.

[spanone]

20. We STILL have the filibuster. It would have been OFF the table

otherwise. They still would have had their judges approved and we wouldn't have the filibuster when needed most...supreme court. IMHO.

[bvar22]

31. What assurance do YOU have that the Republicans....

...won't just try to zap the filibuster the very next time they want something? They gave up NOTHING!

The DEMS PRESERVED NOTHING!!!!
The Repubs got 3 more radical judges.
Repubd WIN !

[spanone]

35. They have the votes for those judges anyway...they run the Senate

[Coexist]

53. say it with me folks - the nuclear option is dead, the nuclear option....

http://rawstory.com/aexternal/the_filibuster_deal_523

"Rule Changes
In light of the spirit and continuing commitments made in this agreement, we commit to oppose the rule changes in the 109th Congress, which we understand to be any amendment to or interpretation of the rules of the Senate that would force a vote on a judicial nomination by means other than unanimous consent or Rule XXII."

[TahitiNut]

66. That's like still having your genitals, while WEARING A CHASTITY BELT!!

Who's got the key, m'dear??? :grr:

[zoeb]

6. It's funny I heard McConnell (KY) on the radio last week saying

they had the votes... :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[bububjones]

7. we won. Next battle

which of the 5 nominees are the worst and why should a moderate republican oppose them?

[Blaze Diem]

11. What will be Frist's punishment for NOT delivering to george almighty?

Will the case against Hospital Corp.of America/Frist family bilking the government of million$ in false medical claim, be reopened?
Will some Novakian right wing loyalist "leak" something to the press expose the Frist family?

There is a thread here on DU somewhere about Why Frist is beholding to Bush.
Has to do with the FBI investigation into this issue..the case suddenly dropped from sight when Frist emerged as George's lackey.

I'll try to locatte it..

[The_Casual_Observer]

12. If it makes dems feel better to believe this, might as well.

However, the filibuster has been castrated.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

23. Was there anything left

to castrate Democrats? Or are all Democrats who once had balls now totally denutted?

This is so sad.

[Blaze Diem]

24. My gut says you're right..I'm hoping the opposite.. but

the only end to this dilemma will be the final vote.

[Rowdyboy]

16. Donson is humiliated, Frist is castrated and the filibuster lives

And there is absolutely no guarantee those three judges will be confirmed.

[saltpoint]

17. Frist was knocked out of his own game by colleagues in his own party.

Two of whom have designs for 2008 themselves.

No matter what you think of the deal, Frist looks like a catcher's mitt left out all night in the rain.

[Gothmog]

22. Dobson was not going to accept any compromises

Frist lost. Dobson had stated that no compromise would be acceptable to the religious right. The only way that Frist had a chance of nailing down support from Dobson was winning a total victory. Frist lost and Dobson will drop him like a rock.

[sendero]

25. I agree he lost..

... but lost what? A bid for the presidency? Don't make me laugh, have you ever seen/heard this guy speak? Growing mildew has more charisma.

This guy never was a threat IMHO.

[spanone]

30. Well, he IS seriously thinking about running...and look who's prez now

But this was a 'DEAL' made without Frist, they went around him. Cut his nuts off. A political hijacking by the republican moderates. James Dobson and company won't put up with the moderates. They will blame Frist, and rightly so since he took it up the ass for them.

[asjr]

29. Frist tried to be too big too soon. There is no doubt that he

had a great deal to do with Trent Lott's having to give up the leadership post. He seemed to think he was invincible. He allied himself with the wrong group. There are many steps to climb on the ladder to the presidency and he has stumbled mightily. I hope he packs his briefcase, leaves, and goes back to medicine. I think he has a very good reputation as a physician. I knew long ago what a putz he is.

[kwassa]

32. anyway you frame it, Frist WON this battle.

The far right is used to losing, they have rarely won, historically.

Frist went to bat for them in a big way, and the Dems essentially caved. Frist has their support for his presidential run in 2008.

[Robbien]

39. The far right sites are pissed off at Frist right now. Really Pissed!

They are complaining Frist is no leader. Frist cannot keep his party in line. Frist's answering machine must be melting under the fire breathing being done by the far right wingnuts.

[kwassa]

44. This is only temporary; Frist wins in the long term

[wiggs]

52. Agree.

Frist's job was to deliver these judicial candidates. He did it (at least two of them will get through).

The dem's job was to keep extreme candidates from reaching the bench, where they can do harm. They didn't do it. Two of the candidates are extreme.

When other nominees come before the senate in the future, Frist's job, once again, will be to deliver them. Based on his performance this week, he will do what it takes to get his job done again. What happened today will not diminish his ability to do that at that time. In fact, letting Owens and Brown through will lower the bar so that merely poor, conservative judges will look good.

[GetTheRightVote]

36. I have to agree with the old leftie lawyer, looks bad for us, caved again

:kick:

[housewolf]

38. And that makes it REALLY good news for us

Frist has had a pack of blood-thirsty predators barking and baying outside his window. He made certain promises to them - that he would get their extremist nominees through and that he's eliminate the Dems as a force of opposition.

He lost. He'll get a few of the 7 blocked nominations through, but he won't get them all.

We still stand as a force of opposition.

He still has a pack of blood-thirsty predators on his heels who are not satisfied.

He now has a force within his own party who have become empowered and who took this away from him.



How can this possible be bad for the Dems???

[The_Casual_Observer]

43. "but he won't get them all"

I'm betting on a clean sweep, (I also bet on no WMD back in 2002).

[bububjones]

41. WHETHER IT'S GOOD OR BAD DOESN"T MATTER!

There is going to be a vote on 5 of the nominations, if this is going to be a turning point, which it may be, we need to make sure that these nominatoins fail, does ANYONE know what arguments can be used on a moderate republican to get the nomination of these people blocked they are:
Pryor Jr.
Myers III
Saad
Griffin
McKeaque

[The_Casual_Observer]

42. Dream on, Dream on, Dream until your dreams come true.

[alfredo]

45. I agree, fundamentalist see compromise as a weakness.

Frist made it clear that he was not a party to the agreement. He knows his ass is in a sling for not delivering the goods.

[spanone]

49. They expected Frist to be 'The Hammer'. He did not deliver.

They did not change the rules. Dems can Still filibuster.

[alfredo]

67. We had to give up a few things, but we won a lot more than the

words in the agreement.

[Clark2008]

55. Why do we want Frist to lose?

I WANT him to be the Republican nominee in 2008 - he'll be a helluva lot easier to beat than McCain or Guiliani because, well, he's a nutso, wingnutty, cadaverous-looking cat killer with the charisma of day-old cheese.

Of course, as one of his "constituents" (in quotes because he's never done diddly for me), I am wryly smiling at his huge loss today, but I still think he'd be the easiest of the nutters to beat at this point.

[rainman99]

59. What I don't understand is why they think they can win

EVERY SINGLE THING THEY WANT. GEEz.

[powergirl]

62. IT' S THE BEST WE COULD DO FOR THE COUNTRY

We had NO leverage. We aren't exactly in a postion of strength. If the nuclear option went to a vote the Dems would lose and then we would be totally screwed. This buys us time. I don't think we had a choice. I like it that Frist is all hot and bothered. :evilgrin:

[wiggs]

68. Frist wins if all nominees are confirmed.

And he loses if one doesn't make it. The voting down of a candidate VALIDATES DEMS THREAT TO USE THE FILLIBUSTER...because it will be seen that the candidate was unworthy and the dems persistence saved us all from a bad selection.

The votes are VERY critical to Frist this week.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

71. 3 - 0. Looks like he won.

No "spin" about that.

[high density]

73. They laid the framework for easy right-wing judges today

Doesn't sound like a Frist loss to me.

[Mick Knox]

76. I know I sure dont feel like I won

If frist lost, I should be feeling like I won today..

but I dont.

Seems like a cop out by both sides.