I'm glad they made this deal

[WilliamPitt]

and I am amazed at the hair-tearing I'm seeing here.

Look, folks, they got three appellate court nominees. We've already approved over 200 of Bush's nominees, and you're freaking out over three?

Folks, they just de-nutted Frist. His own people did it. Frist had stapled himself to killing the filibuster as a means of allying himself with the wacko right so he could run for president. His own people swung around behind him and cut his Achilles heels.

We would have lost a protracted war over the filibuster. All the majority would have had to do is push appropriations bills, defense funding bills, any number of bills that we would have stopped as a means of pushing this fight, and they would have buried us with the rhetoric.

We saved the filibuster, we saved our ability to do business in the Senate, and we saved our ability to block lunatics from making it onto the Supreme Court. In other words, folks, we saved Roe v. Wade today. The price paid was three appellate judges added to the 206 already approved.

We saved Roe, plus God only knows what else that would have come down if the filibuster had died. All of this bla bla about 'not filibustering unless extraordinary circumstances' is just that, a bunch of bla bla. We won, they lost, and Frist just got shived by his own people. We saved Roe.

This is a good thing. K?

[yankeedem]

1. Just because Frist loses

Doesn't mean America wins-- pukes get their people, McCain looks like a moderate (despite voting with * nearly 100% of time), and we don't push bills to the floor that America wants to hear about.

[Pachamama]

179. Frist- 0, Dems - 0, McCain - 1 GOP - 2 Bush - 3+

I agree...Frist may have lost, but so did the Dems...McCain gets to revel in appearing as the non-partisan moderate (good for being a prez candidate), GOP gets some wins and keep their nuclear option and the big winner - Bush...he gets his nominees without a fight from the dems...

[KansDem]

224. Yeah, and where was Bush in this fray?

Nowhere to be seen or heard. Hey, maybe he really is a political genius!

[lonestarnot]

233. yeah right...pig shit genius was hiding out in case of attack

[driver8]

254. He always seems to be hiding when he doesn't want to get "dirty"

Typical spoiled "mama's boy" that he is.

But remember, Shrub is "a war time president." (just ask him)!

[lonestarnot]

280. hiding from the attack that he planned.

[In Truth We Trust]

289. Hey wordsmith Will, I got one word for you- PRINCIPLE- look it up.

[lyonn]

182. Frist has been a loser for a long time now

I'd just as soon they shut the Senate down for all the good it has been doing lately. The medicare crap that went through that only cost us not save money (imagine, Bush wouldn't allow discount drugs in this program, it's called bargaining, bkcy bill, money going to gawd knows where overseas with no accounting, Bush's nominees for UN, World Bank, Head of Homeland Security (they have their own little secrets now and no one is to interfere), etc. Shut it down, we can't afford anymore of the Repub bs legislation. There has been no investigating of this administration like the most recent questions concerning why we invaded Iraq. I know, people say we are there now so get over it, oh really?

[Roland99]

212. This will enrage the radical Christian extremists even more

and they will now likely increase their rhetoric and stunts to even greater levels. That will only expose their hatred and bigotry and false faith before the whole nation.

[mourningdove92]

2. Thank You Will!!

I totally agree. BFD if we give them three judges. They had to back down on the nuclear option. Does anyone doubt that they would have gone ahead IF THEY HAD THE VOTES? This is a win for us. Maybe not exactly what we wanted, but hey, they blinked first.

[Protagoras]

91. This'll be spun 27 different ways from Sunday...

But the crux is indeed that if they had the votes...they would have done it.

It's not a Crushing victory...it's a defensive win...but a win nonetheless. Frist is hurt...Bush's numbers are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down....

The Actual Conservatives may be rebelling against the neoconservatives. And I don't mind at all when the opposition weakens itself.

We need to do a lot to our own party. But that should be a seperate effort.

[Coexist]

3. I agree - I think DU just set the record for most negative posts

in 2 minutes.
I thought losing the filibuster was a bad thing?!

[WilliamPitt]

6. The instinct to flee into wildly negative hysteria

runs very strong around here.

[aquart]

247. It's always my first reaction.

Thank you for calming me down. Three more monstrous judges when we've already given them 200 plus... is a good, if sickening, point.

And anything that shows Republicans that they can fight and win against their own leadership IS a good thing.

Weakening Frist is pleasant. But I never did think he was all that strong. He certainly doesn't command the lockstep obedience of DeLay.

But George's judges? This is a still a case of even when we win, we lose.

[yankeedem]

9. Ok, we keep the filibuster

if we promise not to use it---- what the hell is the point of having it? Oh yea, when the Dems win the Senate (fat chance) the pukes will be able to use it.

[FreedomAngel82]

61. It's a bullshit plan

They can only use it when there's an "extreme" thing going on. And what is "extreme"?

[xmas74]

116. That's the point.

Who can argue what is and is not extreme? It leaves the option open w/ alot of room for interpretation.

[ananda]

86. worth repeating

Thank you, yankeedem, for saying:

«Ok, we keep the filibuster

if we promise not to use it---- what the hell is the point of having it? Oh yea, when the Dems win the Senate (fat chance) the pukes will be able to use it.»

[Coexist]

95. worth repeating

the nuclear option is off the table -for good.

[kath]

196. not so - Frist said the "constitutional option" (what HE calls it) is

still on the table.

[Coexist]

260. well, he's wrong.

not to be used in the 109th Congress.
The 7 republicans signed the letter saying they wouldn't use it.

[nolabels]

272. Can't wait for them 110th Congress campaign ads

"The Senate Democrats need to get out of town and give us, the Republicans, the Nuclear option, for the good of the county. I ask for your vote to do it"

This is just a squeeze and filling some time out to get so nothing else gets done (which could be good depending on your perspective)

[cally]

193. We keep the filibuster

for all legislation. If they had succeeded with the nuclear option for judges, and I think Reps were going to win, then they could do the same thing for the next issue they are losing. The key is that we kept the filibuster at the cost of a few whacko judges. We won big. Then if the moderates find their voice and stop voting lockstep with the Fristians, we may just stop the crazies in power.

[KittyWampus]

106. That;s NOT What The Document Says- You Haven't Even Read It'

cause it was only JUST posted-

Future Nominations. Signatories will exercise their responsibilities under the Advice and Consent Clause of the United States Constitution in good faith. Nominees should only be filibustered under extraordinary circumstances, and each signatory must use his or her own discretion and judgment in determining whether such circumstances exist.

[Pachamama]

186. I read it-it's not legally binding & vague! And you think the GOP will

never threaten in the future again the nuclear option? You believe these people?

No way...they are bullys and they just took the Dems lunch money and promised not to kick their asses...this time....

Sorry Will, but this is realism based on experience and observation - not "hysterics" as you suggest above...

You and so many Dems (and mods) believe these guys...I remember when the UAL unions negotiated w/ UAL management and took the cut in pay for keeping pensions for its workers...and we know what happened there...

This was the game of Chicken...and the Dems blinked...Yeah, we can all jump w/ joy...Frist looks like the ass he is and it doesn't change a thing....except...Bush gets his nominees now....that is a big loss for us...and you really believe Roe v wade is safer now?

[Swamp Rat]

281. Oi Pachamama!

:hi:

You said it girlfriend! ... Your insight is needed and much appreciated!

Never make deals with fascists!

[Pachamama]

183. And they keep the nuclear option, get their judges w/out a fight...

Explain to me Will how this was a win for the Dems? :shrug:

[shance]

4. Show us specifically how Frist was just de-cajoned.

SPECIFICS, not broad sweeping sweet sounding generalizations.

[still_one]

5. Sorry will

I think it is a win/win for frist either way. We should have called their bluff...

show people what extremists they are

Now it will be more of the same

[WilliamPitt]

12. And if we had lost?

SCOTUS fucked. Roe gone. No way for the minority to do anything but be lawn ornaments in the Senate chamber.

No, we won. We kept the filibuster. Period.

[cornermouse]

33. We kept the filibuster till we try to pull it out again, the republicans

pull out the nuclear option again, and we lose everything then.

[Telly Savalas]

297. So you're saying that we are powerless to stop the nuke option?

If that's the case then why criticize the deal? Not having the deal would have the same results.

[still_one]

35. you see I think we still have lost on those issues

we just don't realize it yet

Incidently, I hope I am wrong

[0007]

79. If we had lost. Public opinion would have drowned every move

the Republicans tried to make. Frist would have become a bigger victim than Joe McCarthy. Americans would start to wake up and the media would become potent again.

[WillyT]

94. Gotta Agree Here...

I'm a big believer in Republican over-reaching and self-immolation. They were just about to light the fuse to the TNT lodged up their collective asses. They might have gotten their wish, but ended up splattered on the wall later by public outrage at their over-reach.

Now, they and their corporate media whores, will try to spin this into some sort of statesmen-like compromise. Thereby saving the jobs of Republican Senators and Congressmen in 2006, and 2008.

I dunno... I still feel sick at heart and to my stomach. The fact that this got this close, the fact that 'deals were made' (as they always are in congress), the fact that I still think they've figured out how to attain a goal that we, or at least I, haven't figured yet, will not let me sleep peacefully anytime soon!!!

:shrug::wtf::shrug:

[LeahMira]

264. I'm afraid you're right...

The Republicans will spin this as their noble attempt to appease those childish, whining Democrats and permitting the Senate to continue doing the nation's business. While I see the point of Will's statement, the Republicans never let facts get in their way.

[Pachamama]

191. BULLSEYE! 007 hits the nail on the head! If the filibuster had been lost

it would have been the rallying cry for people in this country who are so fed up and waiting for the "sign" of outcry and outrage against the GOP and this administration. It would have served as the wake up call for the many Americans sitting on the fence in disbelief to the tactics and intentions of the extreme right and neo-cons....Not unlike in the run-up to the war in Iraq....

So now what? We all just go back to our lives and its business as usual? :shrug:

[0007]

269. America goes back into sleep mode.....

yawn!

[Telly Savalas]

298. Wake up call?

What political flak did Bush and his minions take for the Iraqi invasion? They still control the White House and both chambers of Congress.

[ooglymoogly]

232. nail hit on head nt

[Fovea]

163. Will, I want you to remember this post

when in 06 we get this understanding pulled out from under us. Fighting them now would have shown far too many Americans just how little the rule of law matters to the Right in time for it to matter in next year's election cycle.

I suspect Stalin felt much the same way when he signed a memo of understanding with Von Ribbentrop, and Chamberlain stepped off the plane saying peace on our time feeling that Hitler had been derailed.

The problem is, the ChristoFascists do not want peace, and any understanding is simply buying them time for an operation Barbarossa. They will beat their moderates back into line, and run thugs against the ones who don't kowtow.

No matter what happens, we will lose Roe V Wade and have to fight to get it back. Mark my words. I respect you a great deal Will. But I respectfully disagree with you in this.

[WillyT]

166. Oh Man... That Just Made My Heart Drop !!!

Peace In Our Time...

Another creepy coincedence???

Not with this group of thugs!

Damn I hope we're wrong about all this.

:wow:

[Pachamama]

192. He will...and so will all the other Dems who thought they had a "deal"

:nuke:

[GalleryGod]

292. Well Said-I Agree, 100%

"Fall back !" "Fall back" All Dems do is fall back and Re-trench.
look up Dien Bien Phu in your military glossary,folks!
De-Nutted!? Ha! :rofl: Doubt it! Doubt it, 110%

The Nightmare Continues......

[Vincardog]

267. The only thing that would be different is that they would have to

openly declare Dick to be the Dictator of the Senate.

Only after they have declared that absolute power will people actually realize that we are no longer working under your fathers USA.

The only upside to the nuclear option would be to force the brown shirts to declare and show themselves.

[steelyboo]

285. ok, how do you win when you keep what you already had, and have to

give up 3 things you stood up for? Furthermore, how are you SO sure that SCOTUS still isn't fucked (you nor I have 1 iota who they will nominate, and they still want Scalia as CJ) and that Roe isn't gone (appoint 1 con for any of the 5 votes and you loose that)? This agreement isn't law, it isn't enforceable in anyway, and it does not guarantee that we will not go through this shit again later. I'm sorry, Mr. Pitt, but I have to disagree, they won.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. once again we demonstrate that the DP

is a bunch of weak willed losers.

"We have a fillibuster Madam, if we choose not to use it"
--- Ben Franklin explaining how the Democratic Party leaders once again saved the day.

[tallahasseedem]

7. I hope your right...

I would hate to think we backed down, again.

[merh]

8. I agree Will

thank you for the post and for the sig message! :hi:

:pals:

[acmejack]

10. I suggest it is a temporary stay, not a save.

It's not like they will be neutered by the departure of *. Roe will be history before you and I are. Perhaps I am an incurable pessimist, I hope so, but these guys are playing keepsies.

[liberalnurse]

I'm cool with that......

I wanted to save the Filibuster and was hoping for a deal...some how some way....The fact that we even still have wiggle room is a blessing.


I agree.
:applause:

[LSparkle]

11. OK, so we saved the filibuster -- but we said we won't use it?

Except for "egregious circumstances"? If the dictatorial behavior we've seen over the past few years hasn't been egregious, then I don't know what that word means anymore.

We should have made Frist and company walk the plank, but Cheney in the chair and show themselves for the true power grabbers they are. This only delays the confrontation ... that's what RoveCo wants; no compromise on their side.

[yvr girl]

13. Winning wars is more important than winning skirmishes

I'm glad someone was concentrating on the winning move not the next move.

[MisterP]

14. I don't care

[LuckyTheDog]

15. I agree

But a lot depends on what happens next.

For now, though, the event that historians might have called the beginning of the end of the U.S. Constitution has been averted. The republic lives to fight another day.

[tavalon]

99. Gee

Wouldn't that have been back in 2000, that beginning of the end thing?

[kath]

198. yep, December 12, 2000. The Beginning of the End.

[Zinfandel]

202. Truly...The beginning of our end...mark it down.

[annagull]

16. I agree with you about nutting Frist

He looks baaaad. But, I think this whole compromise flies out the window when the SC nominee comes up for vote, you know Shrub is going to nominate some extreme knuckledragger that any non partisan is going to find abhorant.

[WilliamPitt]

17. ...and we have the filibuster

[Warren Stupidity]

25. no we don't

I have a million dollars too, as long as I don't try to spend it.

[WilliamPitt]

28. Rilly?

I'm pretty sure I just saw on my TV that the filibuster will remain as part of the Senate rules.

[shance]

49. So NOW you believe what the media says William?

That's convenient.

[LoZoccolo]

187. Universal Far-Left Facts Diffuser (TM) in use here.

You can always say "you believe what the media says?" and whatever thing they reported goes away. :nuke:

It is like the conservatives and their "media is liberal" thing, but on the other side.

[Warren Stupidity]

149. Only it can't be used

for anything. So what good is it?

Like my fictional million dollars, it exists on paper, not in reality.

[johnaries]

180. Yes it can. It's up to each Senator's discretion whether the

circumstances are "extraordinary" or not. Plus, the "Advice" says they more or less expect the President to check with both Dems and Repukes before making a nomination. Of course, Bush won't. So, there's an excuse to use it right there!

[ultraist]

31. And we have at least three lunatic judges

that will set precedents/laws that are extremely conservative and regressive. Can't wait to see their first rulings!

[liberalnurse]

71. They're just judges......they're like warts....

We still have our vital organ....the filibuster.

[annagull]

80. not to mention the beauty of watching the repukes fight themselves

we all know how well this one is going to go down in 'raptureland', I am seeing a large schism develop, it can only get wider.

[ultraist]

169. Feingold is disappointed---lifetime appointments

"Confirming unacceptable judicial nominations is simply a green light for the Bush administration to send more nominees who lack the judicial temperament or record to serve in these lifetime positions... but I am disappointed in this deal."

--Feingold

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3715597&mesg_id=3715597

[Pachamama]

195. We have a canoe on Sh*t's Creek w/out an Oar is what we have!

Will - you and Charles Shumer and others can fool yourselfs and make yourselves believe till the cows come home that you "have your filibuster" and won....maybe if you say it enough times to yourselves, it becomes more believable, but we have no more today than we had yesterday....in fact, I'd argue we have less and we lost our credibilty as being any kind of opposition to these people!

Sorry, Will...I've always respected you, but on this one, I will disagree and say that I think this will just be the beginning of them stepping up their agenda against us and this country....

[fob]

263. It depends on who retires first. If it's Rehnquist they'll put up a

typical knuckledragger, corrupt enough to have their trust but "clean" enough to make it through hearings (bruised or not they don't care, because once he/she takes her seat they'll make their horrbile decisions either way).

If it's Stevens they'll put up a REAL PUSSBAG, someone so disgusting filibuster will be evoked so fast it'll power DC for 6 months. That way they'll have the Dems trapped and push the nuclear button then. I suspect it will be Ashcroft, because they can also trot out that, "most of these same Democrats already voted the guy for AG, what's their problem now?" It could just as easily be Estrada (hispanic card) or P Owen (female card) too. Since those three are equally insane I would have to handicap them from youngest to oldest with youngest as the favorite (longer potential time destroying our Country).

Actually bush* may also send up a sacrificial right-winger like maybe Dobson that is obviously "extreme" and allows him then to put a real choice of an equally psycho RW-er up next and let him/her play "I'm not near as insane as that last guy, I'm almost normal".

[sendero]

18. I'm still pondering this whole thing..

... but there is one thing I have to say.

Frist? Big fat hairy deal. Frist has even less charisma than Joe Lieberman. He had about as much a chance of becoming president of this country as I do.

Tell me why this is good, I'm listening, but Frist is NOTHING.

[AndyTiedye]

41. One Word. DIEBOLD.

All Your Vote Are Belong To Us

[tavalon]

I scream the Diebold thing all the time

What in the world does that have to do with the conversation at hand?

[AndyTiedye]

129. Diebold is How Frist Could be President

What in the world does that (Diebold.com) have to do with the conversation at hand?

You said:

Frist? Big fat hairy deal. Frist has even less charisma than Joe Lieberman. He had about as much a chance of becoming president of this country as I do.

But with Diebold all things are possible.


100% Fundie-Owned

[tavalon]

140. I get it now

You are so right. I just thought it was a non sequiter. I should realize by now that Diebold is unfortunately never a non sequiter.

Thanks for clarifying. :)

[sendero]

113. Well..

... I believe that elections have been stolen, but I believe there is a practical limit to the percentage of votes that can be stolen without raising a red flag the size of Alaska.

Frist would need China.

[AndyTiedye]

175. I Hope You Are Right

Ask Governor Roy Barnes or Senator Max Cleland what constitutes a safe lead --
OOPS, make that former Governor Roy Barnes and former
Senator Max Cleland.
Both saw double-digit shifts between the final polling and the certified results delivered by Georgia's all-Diebold voting system. In both
races exit polling went MIA.
There were massive shifts from the exit polls in both pResidential
sElections involving George Bush** after everyone thought Kerry
was going to win.

I am not sure that being up 20 points is enough anymore.
Perhaps a 2-1 advantage would be sufficient.
I don't see how we can get there though, when about 1/3 of the
electorate will believe anything they see on TV.

[dxstone]

219. Aww, come on...

If Butch Jr can be president, ANYBODY can be president...
Correction--make that ANYTHING...

IF YOU QUESTION MY INTEGRITY...

I WILL DEVOUR YOUR SOUL!!!

[alcibiades_mystery]

Absolutely agree

And the hair-pulling and general blindness to a major Democratic victory is shocking. You are absolutely correct. Thanks.

[FlemingsGhost]

19. Jesus Christ, Will. This only prolonged the agony.

The sooner it unravels, and it will, the sooner we start rebuilding.

No winners, here. Only Zombies, in limbo.

[FighttheFuture]

303. Exactly!!! Get it over, before revolution becomes REPRESSION!!.

All the tools are being put into place, from National ID, RIF Chips in everything, mercenary military, controlled media.

Soon, even revolution won't be possible.

[CatWoman]

21. Thank you so much

all the wailing and teeth gnashing was getting on my fucking nerves.

[acmejack]

36. So we should break out the bubbly?

it might be in keeping with the elation I am supposed to be feeling. This is certainly not a "major" win for us.

[CatWoman]

64. I'm not responsible for your jubliation, or lack of

I'm not especially jubiliant myself.

[acmejack]

81. Thanx for setting me straight on that

No point in being any more childish so I'll shut up now.

[CatWoman]

85. I'm just confused. Relieved, yes. But ever so confused.

[liberalnurse]

73. No...just wipe your brow.....

Wheewooo we live to fight another day.

[cornermouse]

22. Sorry. I think we're going to find that Frist is still intact.

And we've agreed not to use the filibuster except in extreme conditions?

In the meantime, Bush and the neos have won the long term fight. I will have died from old age before our courts can be brought back into balance.

[noiretextatique]

23. question: what's to stop them from doing this again?

when they want someone on the supreme court?

[Warren Stupidity]

26. Not one thing. EOM.

[alcibiades_mystery]

50. Here's what's to stop them

You have at least six of them now on record saying that the nuclear option was bad for the country and bad for the institution of the Senate. Can these six then come back and vote for it six months or twelve months hence? Hardly fucking likely, since they will trumpeting this deal as one of their major accomplishments from here on in. That was why Mike DeWhine was very specific at the press conference in saying he would have voted FOR the nuclear option had it come to that. None of the other six Reoublicans said that.

[noiretextatique]

65. thanks for the explanation

i am somewhat relieved.

[Warren Stupidity]

150. 1-6 of them will claim that the democrats violated the deal.

And on that basis they will justify their voting with the fascists.

[alcibiades_mystery]

167. Perhaps, but it is a very difficult argument to make

When you've already basically said that the nuke option is bad for the senate in general and that's what all but DeWhine were really saying today.

[ultraist]

24. Hmmm...

Dems are supporting putting radical conservative judges on the bench today! Whose to say they wont do that again, when the time comes to appoint SCOTUS Justices?

[suffragette]

27. And they have a habit of attaching all kinds of crap

to appropriations and defense spending bills - like Real ID. So, we could have expected them to attach similar to any defense bill they would have pushed through during the slow-down.

I'm not seeing much difference so far between what Reid was already offering as a compromise and the compromise that is happening.

Anyone have more info on it?

[Catt03]

29. I agree with you Mr. Pitt

At first I was appalled. B ut then after listening and reading, I think we did the right thing. I think we won if...IF..we want to save the Senate and stop Bush.

Right now I believe Reid. I hope I am not wrong.

On edit: I, reluctanly admit that I do not think it will work. The "14" may be lovey dovey but I think the rest are so polarized and the damage has been done by the Republicans.

[sinkingfeeling]

30. Will, didn't the Dems just agree to cloture on the 3 nominations? Isn't

it possible that they picked up some 'nay' votes from some of those Republicans with this deal? They will still have to have 60 votes to confirm. Am I misunderstanding this?

[WilliamPitt]

32. They don't need 60 votes to confirm

They need 60 votes to overcome a filibuster.

[Andy_Stephenson]

34. I don't see it that way.

What I see is the dems rolled over and p pped again. Only time will tell.

[Spiffarino]

93. Agreed

I wish I could share Will's enthusiasm. To me, the right course is to stand on principle. Brown and Owen are the most egregious examples of the type of extreme rightwing judges Karl Rove will foist upon the land.

We had a chance to take a stand against the narrow, hateful agenda of the Extreme Right, and we backed away...again.

[Warren Stupidity]

152. I agree

As I wrote earlier (not in this thread).

Reps: give us all of our judges or we nuke the fillibuster.
Dems: how about 3 of 6?
Reps: nope. give us all of our judges or we nuke the fillibuster.
Dems: how about 4 of 6?
Reps: nope. give us all of our judges or we nuke the fillibuster.
Dems: how about 5 of 6?
Reps: nope. give us all of our judges or we nuke the fillibuster.
Dems: how about 6 of 6?
Reps: thanks for playing.
Dems: we have won a great victory! The Senate is saved! Long live the Republic!

[kath]

197. hi, Andy! {waving} good to see you here!

[NEDem]

37. Right on Will.

You can always be counted on to explain things clearly. Thanks.

[ailsagirl]

164. Ditto... er... same here, Will!! n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. The Democrats caved..again. They won nothing, nada, zip.

The repugs can resurrect the nuclear option by simply saying that the Dems are abusing the agreement.

Now, they and their "moderate" Dem(R) allies can brag that they "saved" the filibuster. Which is now meaningless.

[lonestarnot]

39. Always nice to see you back when we need you! LOL can't wait to get

home and read.

[Rowdyboy]

40. Best of all-Rev Dobson is humiliated, Frist is toast and the filibuster

is approved. I see it as a win.

[MuseRider]

42. I don't know.

Keep talking. I am having trouble with this.

It looks like we lost, it feels like we lost. They get to look good, except for Frist, and we get these wonderful life time appointments. We promised to be good once again and they look like the grown ups with their obedient little children.

I will work on this, it may take me a while though. I HATE what is going through my mind right now.

[Mist]

60. I too am having a problem w/this - doesn't feel like a victory

Feels like yet another mushy compromise. The Rethugs blinked? I don't think so. And it keeps in place the situation that led to all this. Who's to say when more of this will pop up? The constant back-and-forthing, the twisted "arguments" of the Rethugs, etc. I can only hope that the "extraordinary circumstances" for using the filibuster are apparent to the Dems. After all, the entire * pResidency is an extraordinary circumstance!

[MuseRider]

76. I think that I would feel better

if I could trust the Republicans to be fair but I can't, we should not. I am working on it but right now I am very uncomfortable with this. I need to stop and not say much until I have really thought it out. It is good to see that a lot of people here who I respect think it is good but I still have to make up my own mind.

It feels bad still.

[tavalon]

105. Yep

I can't help but think that the only reason a compromise was struck was because Frist didn't have his numbers.

And that the only reason it was reached in the twelfth hour was saber rattling rights on the part of the Rethugs.

[dxstone]

223. Trust your feelings, lulu...

Didn't Yoda say that?
Here's how I see it (and I posted this in another thread, in which it was pointed out that the Reep mods and centrists ALSO had a lot to lose if the filibuster was nuked; I followed on that idea with this)...

Two-party dualism is an important element of the oligarchy we're in; the seeming struggle between the polar opposites has made it possible for them to screw us all for years and years and get away with it; there's always that plausible deniability of "It's not us, it's the OTHER guys who are doin' it, we're on YOUR side!" argument...

The Dems should've stood fast if they wanted to serve the people and the causes they espouse... but this isn't exactly new or heart-breaking behavior on their part.
I DON'T hate the Dem party, but I see a great need for some SERIOUS reform. We need NEW blood; with few exceptions, ALL these bums need to be shown the door...
I feel for Conyers and Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, Kucinich... they must feel like absolute blue monkeys out there...

Had the Democrats, and everyone else who cares at all about this country, stood firm, the neo&theocons' lil' insane gambit, this ridiculous ruse would've been STOPPED IN ITS TRACKS; there would be a backlash, a major loss of face on the part of the fascists, and perhaps a tiny bit of balance might've been restored...
All they had to do was stand pat, and call their bluff...
Jeez, Louise, if this wasn't the one where the Dems were positioned to score a real blow against these over-reaching madmen, and restore a bit of their ol' prestige as a party of CONSEQUENCE, well, shit...
If this wasn't it, I don't know WHAT would be...
D
ps: I FIRMLY BELIEVE that when a lotta this stuff comes down (like when John Kerry suddenly gave up for no apparent reason at all, just like Gore did), there's some loved one, some wife or daughter sitting in a room somewhere with a gun to their head; I'm SURE the opposition isn't above such tactics...
So I agree with you, there probably WAS "some kind of reason"...
After all, you don't have to kidnap EVERYONE'S family; just key people, at key times...
And when you've got millions and millions of dollars in your own personal accounts, why the hell not?
Shit, if I won the lottery?... I'd be building one of those secret mountain cavern fortresses right now, just like a James Bond film; I'd be approving plans for the trapdoor and shark tank thingamabob, and interviewing machine-gun guards for the new collider installation...
If I DO win the lottery, someone should probably keep some tabs on me...
:beer:
POWER, almost GOD-like levels of power vested in the hands of a few tiny, stupid people... and nobody keepin' tabs, no checks, no balance...
THAT'S the problem.

for more on the problem of power, check out
The Worst Addiction
http://presidentevilonline.com/addiction.html

[mvd]

43. Agreed - with reservations

If it was behind Frist's back, it's a good thing. And I'm worried about the "extraordinary circumstances" part. Who's to say they wouldn't create an impossible standard and bring up the nuclear option again?

[Itsthetruth]

44. Oh Come Now William .... You Can Do Better Than That!

Democrats have not stopped any of the 10 nominations. Not a single one of them will be blocked under this deal.

If all of Bush's judicial nominations will be approved by the Senate without a filibuster why in the world would Frist, Cheney, etc., need the "nuclear option"? That's the bottom line. They will get their judicial nominations approved without filibuster. And they did it without changing Senate rules so they can and will filibuster judicial nominations in the event a Democratic is elected president.

That's not a bad deal at all .... for Bush.

"We would have lost a protracted war over the filibuster. All the majority would have had to do is push appropriations bills, defense funding bills, any number of bills that we would have stopped as a means of pushing this fight, and they would have buried us with the rhetoric."

Right. The way it works now is that 100 Senators vote for war funding and Democratic Senators led by Harry Reid vote for right-wing anti-consumer legislation such as class action "tort reform" and "bankruptcy reform".


But good ahead William and call this a great victory for the Democratic Party and Progressive Democrats of America. I thought you were smarter than that.

Will you be popping the bubbly tonight to celebrate this great victory? I hope this isn't an example of how you propose to "take over" the Democratic Party. Any luck on that recently?

[WilliamPitt]

45. BILL FRIST JUST SAID HE DOES NOT LIKE THIS DEAL

What does that tell you?

Clue phone, folks. We won.

[alcibiades_mystery]

53. We won for sure

Plus, we now have six Republicans on record saying that the nuclear option is bad for the country and bad for the institution of the Senate (DeWhine said he would have voted for it, which was his weasel out of the thing). That seals the end of the nuclear option for future filibustersw during this Congress - contrary to the posters who believe we've lost this round. Frist got his ass handed to him, not being able to bring in the votes with a 55-45 majority. How does that look? It looks like just what the Democrats had been saying: the nuclear option was a radical change of the Senate rules pushed by the far right wing. Seven Republicans revolted and lost Frist the SIX vote majority on this thing. We. Fucking. Won.

[meti57b]

59. thank you. I'll try to look at it that way.

[shance]

54. SINCE WHEN DID HE EVER TELL THE TRUTH WILL??

n/t

[Itsthetruth]

57. Well What The Hell Did You Expect Him To Say?

No shit!!!! Frist says he doesn't like it. How shocking!!!

Did you expect him to applaud this deal and gush all over with praise?

The bottom line is that all of Bush's court nominations will be approved in the Senate. Now if you want to call that a huge victory for progressives and plan to party tonight go ahead.

I don't think many will be joining you.

[ginnyinWI]

127. I think he was super-pissed off

I don't listen to his words; I look at his body language. That was not a happy man on the floor of the Senate tonight. He had defections--seven moderate repubs told him to take a flying leap--showed that they valued the Senate over Frist's presidential chances.

Contast that with the big grins on all the faces of the Dems tonight!

[AVID]

104. Oh . . .well if he said it, it must be true...This is what he wanted

His threats are what allowed the three in.

It was a bluff!!!!!!!

We folded.

ANd lost

[tavalon]

110. Seems to me

that that is just more saber rattling. Frist had to have this twelfth hour compromise because he didn't have the votes to pull it off but since he knows how bad it looks to his wingnut base that he backed down he's pretending this was done "behind his back".

Nice theater but I'm damn tired of theater.

You and I agree about 98% of the time but I'm not on board this time.

[The Straight Story]

145. And I trust frist about as far as I could throw him

which ain't far.

I hope you are right. I have had a lot of hope over time that things were right. So far though.....

[hector459]

148. wink, wink

;-) ;-)

[goclark]

160. I agree

The Rethug bullies are not bragging now.
I just heard one of the wacky right leader say that they are not happy about this AT ALL.

Usually, all they do is crow about how much in control they are on everything - and they have been in total control of EVERY THING.

This could have turned out with some real tears for our side. Frist did not get his way today and that is something new.

Reid verbally cut BUSH and CHENEY and the wacko right a blistering put down.

That is something new.

I say it is a beacon of light that hopefully will point us to the end of this tunnel of darkness.

[Roland99]

213. It means he just lost the Fristian campaign dollars!

[dxstone]

228. Frist is ACTUALLY creamin' his jeans, Will...

If you believe what he SAYS, well, I dunno what to tell you...
But I'd better be careful, anyway, not to say something silly like YOU'VE JUST WON A MILLION DOLLARS! or I'M THE DEVIL!
Cuz from the sound of things, you'll likely BELIEVE it...
D
ps: I'm sorry, Will, I don't mean to joke cruelly; you are one of my favorite writers, your work has often risen to the level of high art and I don't want to discourage you at all, I want you to keep going strong...
But we don't seem to be inhabiting the same reality here...
I KNOW, Will, I KNOW... I'm of two minds on this thing myself, even with all this said...
This was NO victory, that's obvious... even so, I'd SOOO LIKE to believe we somehow just dodged a bullet...
But actually, I think it hit us right between the eyes.
Anyway, live or undead or whatever, I soldier on as best I can...
You wanna call my (and others) less optimistic view hysterical? Maybe you just aren't as wounded as some of us, not quite as close to the looming edge...
I hope you aren't. NO ONE should live this close to it...
But you oughta get out and visit others who do more often... perhaps it would give you additional perspective...

[demo dutch]

242. Spin, nothing but Spin!!! "Extraordinary Circumstances" is in the eye

of the beholder. We will always lose in the court of public opinion, because the repugs with help of the MSM will manage to spin it their way and sway public opinion in their favor. They've been successful more often than not!

[Goldmund]

244. It tells me that he would like us to think he doesn't like this deal.

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. We won NOTHING!

WHO decides what an extreme circumstance is? The Democrats? I don't think so. This is not even close to a win. IMCPO.

[SW FL Dem]

158. Each Senator has the power to decide- even the Dems

You have to read the language of the agreement. Each signing Senator is given the discretion to use their own judgment to decide what is extraordinary.

[ClintonTyree]

222. And then the Republicans are free....

to tell us to cram it up our ass, say we reneged on the "compromise" and proceed with the nuclear option again. Don't be so naive, we're not dealing with the Girl Scouts here.

[DemocracyInaction]

47. We seem to forget here that we are the MINORITY and that

means we did damn good on this. This has nothing to do with 'folding'. We were headed for the butcher's block but we ended up with in essence Reid beating Dr. Death. We have now launched a group of Repubs who Bush has to fear a bit. We have done damage to Dr. Death and his bid for the presidency. We have the filabuster in our back pocket and these power grabbers were unable to destroy the Senate like they have everything else. Pretty goddamn good for a stinkin' minority if I have to say so myself. (were you expecting that we were going to pull like 10 new Dem senators our of our ass for a vote??).

[Scout1071]

48. Couldn't have said it better myself. And let's not forget that the next

President will also have the right to an up or down vote on their nominees. Consider the fact that I just read a poll this evening that Bush's approval rating is now down to 37%, we are in business for 06 and 08.

Nice to see you back Will.

[tavalon]

112. Um, don't forget Diebold

Unless we destroy Diebold between now and 2006, the republicans are going to "surprisingly" continue to hold a majority. I can't imagine how (yes I can) but they will.

[Scout1071]

133. Agreed. The Dem's better start getting loud about voting oversight

and paper trails.

[tavalon]

138. And soon

like, now!

[eridani]

185. Paper BALLOTS, BALLOTS, BALLOTS, BALLOTS, BALLOTS,---

BALLOTS, BALLOTS, BALLOTS, BALLOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sellitman]

122. What a Rosy outlook!

Now wake up and understand this:

The machines are fixed, the judges we let go today will haunt us all for many Halloweens to come and as soon as bush's next wacko Judge friend is up for a vote we still won't be able to neuter him/her because of this agreement. Sorry but...this is another CAVE IN in a rather long string of failures for the Liberal folks in America.

Will....We usually agree but not this time.

[Scout1071]

135. That's your opinion. I, however, believe this country was built on

compromise. Who said they will receive the majority votes? Maybe part of the deal is to vote down the most extreme judges? All I know is the filibuster stays and I'm looking at this as a positive because I believe we will be in power again very soon.

Icing on the cake is that Frist, DeLay and Limbaugh are imploding simultaneously.

On a side note...yes, I believe the vote is/was fixed and we need to unite now and quite loudly demand more voting oversight/paper trails.

[Just Me]

51. Reid made a clear statement! Cheney and radical right will NOT be,...

,...tolerated!!!

Frist is fucked!!!! The radical right-wing will be freakin' fuming!!!

We still retain to right to filibuster in extreme circumstances and we ARE dealing with extreme circumstances.

I am doing a victory dance all over my living room floor!!!

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[cry baby]

52. It's a good thing!!!

I think this is a victory for us in a big way!

[meti57b]

55. it's the theoretical beginning of the fragmenting of the republican party.

[The Straight Story]

56. So you trust the republicans on this?

"we saved the filibuster" - from what and whom? The people we deal with there say they will honor their agreement on this - but will they?

Give us what we want now, and later you can have the ability to filibuster. Trust us.

Yeah it is only 3 judges out of 200+, no big deal it seems (though, apparently it was a bug enough deal for this whole ruckus to come about).

Those who have power got what they wanted - and we got promises.

I promise to give you a millon dollars if you will give me 500k today. Trust me. :)

I do get the politics (to some extent) behind all this, the dems stood their ground hard enough that it got noticed. They stood up to fight. Then when it came time they decided, 'Nah, maybe another day'.

We will see.

[TayTay]

58. IF the Cat-Killer is saying

that this is "a good deal for the Senate, for the Senate" then he f*cking lost something. He doesn't give two sh*ts about the Senate.

[nolabels]

270. CAT MASS-MURDERER

Our vet just put "Buddy", our family cat, to sleep. He had a cat contagious virus that the vet said was somewhat like AIDS.
The cat's eyes were so swollen that he couldn't even see. :cry:

[Elwood P Dowd]

62. I just go in a few minutes ago

Does anyone have any details other than the generalities posted here?

[in_cog_ni_to]

69. The Dems gave the repukes 3 of their rabid RW judges for the appellate

courts and promised not to filibuster except in "EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES", but we don't know who decides what an extreme circumstance is. My guess is it won't be the Democrats.

[tavalon]

115. Good guess n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

157. so we will find out when the other two shitheads come up

if the Dems let them in then we have lost the fillibuster in reality. If the republicans let them slide then there is hope.

The slim hope here is that:

"The agreement said future judicial nominees should "only be filibustered under extraordinary circumstances," with each Democratic senator holding the discretion to decide when those conditions had been met."

means anything other than the fillibuster is effectively dead.

I agree with the analysis made in this thread that the democrats have essentially relinquished use of the fillibuster while the republicans have kept it on the books in case they need it after 2008.

The unacceptable judges are in. The fillibuster is unusable. The republicans didn't have to look like Sith Lords. Big win for our side, huh will?

[xray s]

63. Now lets start educating the American public about just how extreme...

....these judges are.

That has bothered me from day one of this fight. 95% of the political blah blah has been about the filibuster (as Americans eyes glaze over) and not about the terrible, extreme records of these judges.

So now the vote will take place and its the Democrats job to make sure everyone knows the truth about these judges.

Hey, if they do a really good job of it, we may even get a few Republican votes against, maybe enough to block a judge or two.

And that would be far sweeter, and far more effective going into '06, than blocking these judges by a filibuster.

[htuttle]

66. This is one of those times when politics is like making sausage

:shrug:

[Deja Q]

67. We lost the battle, but the war ain't over?

Frist is a real ass-wipe for pulling his stunts despite how few the democrats wouldn't accept inthe first place.

My verdict is still out. Politics are depressing anyway.

[Cha]

68. "Saved the Filibuster"!

Just got home..I was prepared to look at the bright side(:( ) if we lost the Filibuster. But, this sounds good the way you put it..especially regarding the de-nutting of frist!:)

[BigBearJohn]

70. And here I thought you could never make chicken soup outta chicken shit

cuz that's what it sounds like we are trying to do.
Here, let me bend over. But be gentle will you?

[pinto]

72. I agree, it's a loss for overeaching Frist, and a compromise win for us.

[wiggs]

74. The analogy is....

The analogy is: someone comes up to you, puts a gun to your head and demands your wallet. You give up your wallet, the guy leaves and you live to work another day. Who wins?

Who wins has not yet been determined.

If you live till another day when you can nail the sucker walking down the street, it's a good thing. But if you live till another day when the guy comes back and gets your wallet again, it's a bad thing and you are a loser.

The dems live till another day. LET'S SEE WHAT THEY DO WITH IT!!!

Pushing the analogy: unfortunately, they've held a gun to our heads many times before this. This is not the first battle for the republic, and we've lost most of those previous times.

[knoxvilleboy]

75. Too early to be glad.

I think you're being unduly optimistic about this being a good thing. It could be a good thing, particularly if it means that Frist, Dobson et al are damaged, but my fear is that it simply skews the line of acceptability even further to the right and gives the Republicans an image of being "less extreme" when they have, in fact, become more so. At one point the idea of calling a John McCain or a John Warner a moderate would have been ludicrous, now they are viewed as being statesmanlike.

This could work for our good if Owen or Brown or Prior receives a no vote yet again. It can also serve as a plus to force either a more neutral conservative or (my hope) a very elderly one on to the Supreme Court bench to replace Rehnquist.

The downside occurs if the DINOs join the Rethugs to approve Owens and Browns and refuse to join their more centrist colleagues (I question whether there are more than 4 or 5 Democrats that can be considered left of center)in blocking a significantly unacceptable candidate to the court.

We will see whether this is good or not. Don't pop popcorn or open that good bottle of Manischewitz yet.

[Coexist]

77. I think that this will help the ongoing implosion of the

Neocon wing of the Republican party.

[ultraist]

84. "Skews the line of acceptablity even further to the right" Exactly!

And when they go to appoint Justices to the SCOTUS, it will be ok to appoint one that would put major restrictions on Roe, since the line has been drawn.

Furthermore, these judges, like Owens DO have quite a lot of power. They set laws that will adversely effect us.

[Jersey Devil]

78. Thank you Will - the real battle is Scalia and the filibuster lives

Owen and Pryor mean nothing next to what will happen if Scalia is confirmed as Chief and another wingnut is appointed in his place to the Supreme Court.

[ananda]

82. fantasyworld

We didn't save anything. We simply gave away the system of checks and balances.

I guess it's just more obvious now how weak the Dems are. They should never have confirmed all of those 206 previously.

Saved Roe v. Wade? Give me a break! You should see the laws on abortion now being passed in Texas. Every session, the legislature puts more obstructions to getting an abortion and more limits on what doctors can do.

Sue

[neuvocat]

83. Politics: the art of compromise.

If everyone's pissed off then its a good thing.

[ananda]

97. no

This compromise is NOT a good thing. There's nothing good about it.

The Reeptiles played chicken with the Dems and the Dems caved.

Reid and the Dem powerbrokers should have taken it all the way to the end. Even if we lost the filibuster, it would have shown how really crazy and extremist the GOP are now, and it would cause the Pubs to implode and fizzle out sooner rather than later.

Now we are in for a few years of really painful public policy, with extreme rw judges that will make so many lives more difficult, even hell, while allowing Pub and CEO crooks a free ride.

Two results, as someone pointed out: 1) Owens gets confirmed, so Kenny Lay and the boys get off. 2) The next couple of Supreme Court justices will be worse than ever, and Roe v. Wade is down the tubes.

Sue

[neuvocat]

171. Alright, time to play a little game here

called "Let's assume this is true." We'll start with the first point.

"This compromise is NOT a good thing. There's nothing good about it.

The Reeptiles played chicken with the Dems and the Dems caved."

Well besides these two complete overgeneralizations, this was nothing at all like what we've had when Tom Daschle was in charge. The word "compromise" wasn't even in anyone's vocabulary back then but now we have avoided a showdown that takes away from the real business of the country. Let's face it, this was largely a smokescreen.

"Reid and the Dem powerbrokers should have taken it all the way to the end. Even if we lost the filibuster, it would have shown how really crazy and extremist the GOP are now,and it would cause the Pubs to implode and fizzle out sooner rather than later."

Actually people have seen that time and time again and the dems have made the mistake of thinking that the public would see it. However one must consider that the media was able to trick people into supporting an illegal war.


"Now we are in for a few years of really painful public policy, with extreme rw judges that will make so many lives more difficult, even hell, while allowing Pub and CEO crooks a free ride.Two results, as someone pointed out: 1) Owens gets confirmed, so Kenny Lay and the boys get off. 2) The next couple of Supreme Court justices will be worse than ever, and Roe v. Wade is down the tubes."



Well I'm not so sure about that, given that Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling went to jail. I for one didn't think that would happen but it did. However I think you might be right on that Roe v. Wade thing. That is unless people get involved and take it to the streets.

[kath]

200. Whaaaa??? "Ken Lay ... went to jail"?!?! NOT.

[mzmolly]

87. AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My gawd, the Supreme Court was at stake here.

[earth mom]

88. Not so sure this was a good thing or not...but

I'm sure glad it's over for now...I was really dreading the vote.

Jeez...the thought of 3 1/2 more years of this is overwhelming...I rarely drink, but I definitely need a drink after all this! :beer:

[iconoclastic cat]

89. Sweeeeeeet.

De-nuts! De-nuts!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

90. And oddly enough the three judges they get are the

most extremist.

Boston 1
NYY 3

It's a partial victory because Boston's struggling starter only allowed three runs.

Bah.

[Jose Diablo]

92. Sorry, the only way I see this as a win is IF

the moderate republicans vote nay on the three that will be in a up/down vote and all of our Senators also vote nay.

Otherwise I just don't see how this is a win. Because Frist says he doesn't like it? Thats not enough.

What is enough is Frist, Dobson and Cheney get their nuts cut-off and Bu$h doesn't get to place those wingnut judges in the appellate court slots. Nor does Bu$h get to place his pick, if it's another wingnut, on the SCOTUS when the top slot opens-up.

We can keep the filibuster because they let us? Come-on, they cannot kill the filibuster rule without 2/3rds, thats the law. And if they had done that, then they would have had to answer for that. That nuclear posturing was BS and the repubs knew it.

[ginnyinWI]

98. kick

[tavalon]

96. Was there an agreement within this deal

to keep the republicans from pulling this little rabbit out of the hat again later? If not, we have just kowtowed to the mafia and we're still going to get the cement shoes, just not today.

[WilliamPitt]

101. Seven Republicans stood up in public

and said ending the filibuster was bad for America. If they trfy this again, we have them by the short hairs.

[tavalon]

121. Hate to repeat myself

but who are you expecting to remember this for more than a week, the "liberal" media? Or the bloggers who are still more often ignored than paid attention to? Republicans are the masters of the very thing they skewered Kerry on - flip-flopping.

I'll be watching this closely but my first impression is that we made an unnecessary deal with the devil. Unnecessary because the republicans would never have come to the table if they had the vote squared away.

[WilliamPitt]

132. I'm sure someone videotaped their statements

Film is forever.

[tavalon]

137. Only if

we can get the corporate media whores to run it on their precious stations. We in the blogsphere and DU are not nearly as influential as we would like to believe we are (though the trend is there. We could be quite influential in the future).

How many times have we media blasted something only to be stonewalled by the corporate media? Guckert.......Gannon........anybody out there?..........

Look I'm going to quit beating on this for now because I'm not entirely sure yet how I feel about what happened. I need time to let it gel. Plus, as I was reminded on another thread, a severe thread advisory has been issued and really bad DU weather is ahead for the next 24-48 hours so I think I'm going to step out and enjoy the sunny weather here in Seattle.

But, before I go, I just wanted to say that I'm thrilled to see you back here today. I've missed you.

[alcibiades_mystery]

103. The agreement is implicit

Six of the Republicans who entered into the agreement have basically said, on public record that will certainly be remembered, that the nuclear option is bad for the Senate and bad for the country. It will be very difficult for them to come back and vote for it six or eight months hence. Impossible? No. But very difficult to explain such a switch, when all the talk was about "What was best for the country and the institution of the senate."

[tavalon]

119. Remembered?

By the "liberal" media? Or by the blogs that are still ignored more than paid attention to? Sorry, the republicans are famous for the very thing they skewered Kerry on, flip-flopping.

[noamnety]

100. I am confused.

I thought the idea was that each side gives up something.

We agreed not to use the filibuster on extremist nominees we strongly oppose.

They agreed to follow the senate rules.

I haven't been watching the news today, but does that sum it up? What did they give up exactly?

Sounds like they just DID use the nuclear option.

[Coexist]

131. no, they gave up future use of the nuclear option

they can't threaten with it again. It was a good compromise.

[noamnety]

141. They couldn't threaten it this time either, legally

They didn't have enough votes I thought to stop a filibuster.

Unless they broke the rules. So their compromise is that they won't break the rules?

[Coexist]

265. they did have the votes if the fence-sitting Republicans voted with them

and several of the 7 have said they were going to cast "yea" votes for the nuclear option if it had come to that today.

These are the moderates - and they have, by this action and compromise, banded together for strength.

They have also put this in writing. Yes, they could go back on their word, if things get ugly again, but by this action yesterday, they have made that much harder, politically.

I mean, at any time, a Democrat could switch parties, I don't see these Republicans as the least trustworthy of the lot. These 7 I trust more than the Senate leadership, and I am banking on their abiding by their word. Call me naive if you wish - they didn't have to do this. They did. Several will be crucified by a percentage of their electorate for this compromise. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. That will be my opinion until I am proven wrong. Even if one defects, if the others hold strong, there are still not enough votes for the nuclear option.

[noamnety]

278. I am pretty sure they didn't

To change the senate rules, they need a two thirds majority - 67 votes. To change the rules legally, that is. That's why I used that word - what they were doing was against the senate rules.

If they were willing to just announce that they aren't following the senate rules any more, why do I care what they say or sign?

As far as I can tell, nuclear weapons are generally used as a deterrent. That's what they did here - they used it as a deterrent, so we wouldn't filibuster.

Anyone who thinks they DIDN'T just use the nuclear option is mistaken. They used it exactly as any other nuclear weapons are used.

[The_Casual_Observer]

102. With all due respect, that's two strikes in a week.

What song you gonna be singing a year from now when rehnquist croaks and we get owen without any basis for argument?

[spanone]

107. You're right, they busted Frists' nuts and that's a real good thing.

Frist is gonna be the target of the right wingers who demanded his agenda and he acquiesced. He did not deliver...ha ha ha

[BeTheChange]

108. I could give a flying f less about Roe...

yeah, I said it. I could give two shits less about Roe v Wade. I care about the future of this country in it's entirety. I care about the workers Priscilla Owens screwed out of settlements, I care about Willie Searcy's family who lost their son because Owens f'ed around for a year and a half and let him die because she was on the payroll of her donors.

I care about the fact that she has a skewed view of personal property rights and that Ms. Owens believes they allow people to pollute with abandon, ala Gail Norton.

I care about the furthering of judges that love big business and say screw the people.

Why the heck does this party seem to use the ability to "keep" roe v wade some metric as to its success?

Was it the last stand? have we given up the belief that we can win anything else so we grasp at this one thing as some shining beacon of hope?

If Priscilla Owens gets the nomination it will bite that shining beacon square on the ass. And she is moderate compared to the others.

I'm undecided on weather the deal that was reached today is a good or bad thing. Only time will tell. But Im absolutely sick of the grasping at straws. Im for Roe v wade, but in the general scheme of things, compared to what is at stake as a nation, I think it doesnt make one damn bit of difference if we "saved Roe v Wade".

[Mr_Spock]

109. I agree wtih you

It could have been a lot worse for us - lets move on quickly!

[SmokingJacket]

111. We "saved the filibuster" as long as we promise not to use it.

If we do use it, they will surely invoke the nuclear option at that time -- won't they?

In other words, as long as we roll over for them, they'll continue to play by the rules.

This is my question: Frist must not have had the votes if they agreed to this. If he didn't have the votes, why the need for a "deal"?

To me, it looks like the Repubs were going down anyway, but this deal was forged to make a few Dems look like heroes, while the Repubs get pretty much all they wanted.

I hope I have this wrong. Please straighten me out if that's the case.

[bvar22]

114. They didn't SAVE shit.!!!

Do you REALLY believe that the Republicans won't pull this club out of the bag at the the very next opportunity.

After all is said and done, the Democrats have EXACTLY what they went into the deal with.

The Republicans now have 3 (or more) more fanatics on the bench!!!!

SCORE: Republicans - 3
Democrats: - 0

[sellitman]

126. Bingo!

Glad to see someone who knows how to keep score.

This CAVE IN SUCKS!!!!!!

:puke:

[bettyellen]

155. On what planet were we going to fillibuster all the judges?

[nashville_brook]

117. big nom -- all that and more, i think

it's all good. there's always tomorrow for the whole enchilada. too much at stake with the supreme court.

plus, frist is looking like a total creep.

[ulysses]

118. I *think* I'll take this

as a very limited victory, and I'm not so sure about Frist being emasculated. The fundies may be pissed with him now, but they've invested a lot in their folks in DC. I'm not at all sure that they're just going to toss him overboard.

We've still got a long way to go.

[Goldmund]

120. If that's how you want to look at it -- from an upclose perspective.

Or, in terms of day-to-day politics. In that sense, you're right.

But if you look at it in the wider sense, then they got 3 whack-ass nominees to get an up-or-down vote, bypassing the protection of the filibuster for those three. What we "gained" is to retain this aspect of checks and ballances for the future -- an aspect not "won" by a Democrat, but guaranteed by the Senate's traditions and rooted in the constitution.

What you're saying is a little bit analogous to saying that it's a victory that we got Hitler to keep his hands off French Jews as long as we let him keep Auschwitz. I'm not comparing the two situations in any way other than to point out that it's not a victory to lose less than could have been lost.

[kwassa]

123. This isn't a win, and Frist is not de-nutted, it still makes him candidate

He never had to win this to win the Republican nomination for Senate. Even not winning gets him the far right vote.

We get some seriously crazy appellate judges. Janice Rodgers Brown. Give me a fucking break.

The bigger issue is that the 10 judges denied Bush are on the appellate level, those other 200 are not. These are LIFETIME appointments.

[GalleryGod]

293. I Agree Totally

They are bit-by-bit winning the Big War.
Frist? Gone? De-Nutted?
:rofl: Heavens, NO!:rofl:

[lostnfound]

124. Roe v Wade?? How about "No convictions" for Enron, Halliburton...

or who knows what other skeletons will be able to hide in the closets when Priscilla Owen gets her new career.

Some of these people may also end up ruling on the next citizen detention camps, on privacy issues, on whether our rights can be stripped away.

No recourse in the courts, for life. The gift that keeps giving.

[merh]

125. Only 3 of 8, not that good of a compromise by the rethugs

Okay, so they gave 'em 3 of 8 - seems like pukes lost!

"Negotiators are hoping to craft a deal that would allow some nominees to be confirmed while leaving others behind. One plan would allow final votes on Owen, California Supreme Court Justice Janice Rogers Brown and former Alabama Attorney General William H. Pryor, as well as Michigan nominees Susan Neilson, Richard Griffin and David McKeague. The nominations of William G. Myers and Henry Saad would remain stuck."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050520/ap_on_go_co/filibuster_fight

Part of Deal
Owen
Brown
Pryor

Not part of deal
Neilson
Griffin
McKeague
Myers
Saad

[madmark]

128. Its a loss for dems and easy to see

Assuming the 3 (or is it 4) expressly mentioned judges are given an up and down vote first and get consent first, when the dems subsequently filibuster a judge and the pubs disagree that "extraordinary circumstances" exist, the pubs can then declare that the dems breached this deal, that the pubs are no longer bound by it, and the pubs then can go nuclear anyway.

[HarveyBrooks]

243. Bingo

"...when the dems subsequently filibuster a judge and the pubs disagree that "extraordinary circumstances" exist, the pubs can then declare that the dems breached this deal, that the pubs are no longer bound by it, and the pubs then can go nuclear anyway."

[Carni]

130. JMO- The fillibuster should be saved for the supreme court situation

I am not glad they made this deal (per sayt) but am somewhat relieved

[Warren Stupidity]

159. they will just abolish it the next time we try to use it.

all that has happened is that the three worst judicial nominations made by the bush administration have been put on the bench. What a victory. Good thing we didn't step in it huh?

[housewolf]

134. This is GREAT news...

Most of all, it's good for the country. It's good for the institution of the Senate.

It's good for the Dems.

It's way bad for Frist. That makes it REALLY good for us.

[redacted]

136. Well said. Thx. William Rivers Pitt rules!

[dave502d]

139. I don't know if we lost or won but.

When we take back the Senate,can we do the same shit to them.

[Quixote1818]

142. I agree 110% We saved Roe v. Wade! Thats the most important thing

[Goldmund]

143. How is that the most important thing?

[Warren Stupidity]

154. how is it saved?

:wtf: are you folks smoking? Can I have some?

[ultraist]

156. How you do you know we saved Roe?

First of all, wont it take more than one new SCOTUS Justice to overturn Roe? Likely, Bush will only appoint one SCOTUS Justice, to replace Rehnquist.

If it would take only one Justice to overturn Roe, we do NOT know if the Dems would fillibuster a conservative. If Owens is not radical enough to be considered an "extreme circumstances" what is the bar? "Extreme circumstances" is very vague.

edit to add:
We do NOT know if we "saved Roe" with this deal they cut today. Roe may not even be in jeopardy. Even with two conservative new appointments, legal scholars say it's unlikely they would overturn this long standing ruling.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/01/19/MN77552.DTL

Abortion rights proponents say that only five of the nine justices clearly support Roe vs. Wade. With Republicans controlling both the White House and Congress, that could easily change, they say. Chief Justice William Rehnquist, 78, and Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, 72, are expected to retire soon. Rehnquist has voted to overturn abortion rights, but O'Connor has been a key swing vote to keep Roe vs. Wade alive.

Abortion rights advocates also are concerned about the status of Justices John Paul Stevens and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, both of whom have voted to uphold abortion rights. There are no signs that Stevens plans to retire, but at age 82 he is the oldest member of the court. At 69, Ginsburg's health has been a concern since she underwent chemotherapy for colon cancer a few years ago.

For their part, abortion foes are guardedly optimistic that the addition of one or two conservative justices could be enough to prompt the court to say after 30 years that the decision was wrong and overturn Roe vs. Wade. "The court is fairly evenly divided," said Jan Carroll, legislative analyst for the California Pro-Life Council, the state affiliate for the National Right to Life Committee. With the right appointment to the court and the right case before it, she said, "the most positive outcome is to say it's not a constitutional right."

But legal scholars are skeptical that Roe vs. Wade is on the brink of being overturned. Some say there are at least six votes now on the court to uphold the decision. Moreover, they predict, even if conservative judges who may not agree with the 1973 decision are appointed to the court, they are not likely to take the dramatic step of overturning a law that has been on the books for so long. Some speculate that even Rehnquist may be reluctant to overturn the law. "I think the chief would see it as harming the court," said Arthur Hellman, a constitutional law professor at the University of Pennsylvania. "I just don't think any Supreme Court in the foreseeable future is going to try to turn back the clock," he said.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

144. I wonder what the future victims of those 3 judges would say?

Will they call it a victory after they are unfairly ruled upon, when they know those "judges" could have been kept off the bench, but weren't?

I'm sorry- I'm trying to see some good in this. But so far, my glasses keep fogging up. Must be the hypocrisy of it all. Perhaps I just need to switch to my rose colored ones?

[AVID]

146. Look at it this way . . .the GOP created the crisis

over five judges - they got 3

They whined - they threatened - they won

[bububjones]

147. There is still a battle to be fought.

It's not as important, but it could be decisive. We should try to stop the five nominations from being confermed. I realize it's a long shot, but it's worth our effort. Does anyone have any Ideas on what arguments can be used to convince moderate republicans from conferming the five?

[The Whiskey Priest]

151. I disagree

They, the DLC Democrats sold out to the Republicans....there will never be an issue, or person so far to the right that a filibuster will be sustained....these milk-toast Democrats bowed down to Bush and the right-wing.

It is better to die on one's feet than to live on your knees.

[SW FL Dem]

153. The more I read about this, the more I agree with you

CNN Aaron Brown just called this a major victory for the Dems. Add the fact that all the agreement says is that the three will get up or down votes to the statements from some moderate Reps that at least one of the three will go down and I am feeling much better.

[DinahMoeHum]

161. Anything that cuts the balls off Frist and the fundies is OK by me.

:kick:

[nuxvomica]

162. I agree. Though I'm not at all happy about the three passes.

But Reid et al were stuck with lemons and they made some lemonade. People like Dobson are so black-and-white about everything, this probably "rounds down" for them to a crushing defeat.

[Missy Vixen]

165. No, actually, we didn't.

>We saved Roe.<

I realize that there are many who will disagree with me, but Roe will never be in any more danger than it is right now. Why? Without Roe, the Republicans lose a huge amount of fundraising ability. They can't whip their base into a frenzy without Roe, without Bill and Hillary Clinton, etcetera. They must keep the great unwashed writing checks. If they can't get those checks, they're done.

What do I base this on? *'s numbers are in free fall. The White House is now so desperate that they are depending on Laura Bush for foreign and domestic policy. She didn't have such a good time over the weekend. (I thought her telling the Secret Service the other day that they weren't doing their job to her specification was graceless at the least, especially when they spent the weekend protecting her ass.)

Speaking of Hillary Clinton, it looks like she'll be handily reelected, and has no designs on running in 2008, despite what Rush Limbaugh says about it. Yet another problem for Republican fundraising.

The best thing any of us can do right now is to get busy. Become a PCO. Write a check to a candidate you believe in, even if it's a smallish check. They need the money for their next campaign. Start volunteering for a cause you believe in. I agree with Will: The Republicans just served notice that they have interesting problems in their leadership. We need to take advantage of those problems.

Julie

[Zorra]

168. I guess being repeatedly raped and sodomized by fascists isn't so

bad once you decide to submit to it on condition that they promise to be gentle?

Senator Russ Feingold:

"This is not a good deal for the U.S. Senate or for the American people. Democrats should have stood together firmly against the bullying tactics of the Republican leadership abusing their power as they control both houses of Congress and the White House. Confirming unacceptable judicial nominations is simply a green light for the Bush administration to send more nominees who lack the judicial temperament or record to serve in these lifetime positions. I value the many traditions of the Senate, including the tradition of bipartisanship to forge consensus. I do not, however, value threatening to disregard an important Senate tradition, like occasional unlimited debate, when necessary. I respect all my colleagues very much who thought to end this playground squabble over judges, but I am disappointed in this deal."

www.dailykos.com

[Warren Stupidity]

172. TY Sen. Feingold

He said exactly what I think and far more eloquently than I could.

[Geek_Girl]

170. I think it's good

However I'm worried that the dems that brokered the Deal did it behind Reid's back.

[proud patriot]

173. I agree

I think the Radical Right lost on this .

[IndianaGreen]

174. Before you OD on the DLC's Kool-Aid, you should read what Feingold said

Statement of Senator Russ Feingold on Tonight's Decision Regarding Judicial Nominees and the Filibuster

May 23, 2005

This is not a good deal for the U.S. Senate or for the American people. Democrats should have stood together firmly against the bullying tactics of the Republican leadership abusing their power as they control both houses of Congress and the White House. Confirming unacceptable judicial nominations is simply a green light for the Bush administration to send more nominees who lack the judicial temperament or record to serve in these lifetime positions. I value the many traditions of the Senate, including the tradition of bipartisanship to forge consensus. I do not, however, value threatening to disregard an important Senate tradition, like occasional unlimited debate, when necessary. I respect all my colleagues very much who thought to end this playground squabble over judges, but I am disappointed in this deal.

http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/statements/05/05/200552327.html

[wiggs]

176. My opinion of the deal goes up if there's more to deal than publicized

If, for instance, dems got those moderate republicans to agree to vote against Brown, at least, then we'd have something.

I have to say, dems shutting down congress because the pugs wanted to change the rules could have been viewed as an admirable position. After all, pug representatives wanted to change ethics rules for DeLay and this was unpopular. Further, public polls indicate that getting rid of the fillibuster was not generally favored. And everybody loves the underdog...

So I think the dem position was stronger than we think, and hopefully they extracted something more worthwhile out of the deal than "We'll not fillibuster this time if you let us keep the fillibuster a while longer."

[Senior citizen]

177. You're probably right, Will, but......

I seem to remember something about there being a lot of vacancies on the courts during the Clinton days because he couldn't get his appointees confirmed. I don't recall the pukes or anyone saying that the President's judges deserved an up or down vote.

The pukes had 95% of theirs confirmed, now it will be 97%, 98%, 99%, or maybe even 100%. That doesn't sound like bi-partisanship to me. It sounds like totalitarian dictatorship. Even if they don't get one or two percent of their people appointed for life, they've taken over the judiciary. And, since most of them, in my opinion, know that they are likely to end up facing serious criminal charges, they've assured themselves that they will go before judges that they entirely own--incompetent judges who owe their appointments to the people they will be charged with judging fairly. There won't even be an unbiased judge available if the biased ones were willing to recuse themselves.

Roe v. Wade? The Supreme Court? SCOTUS grants certeriorari to what -- 5% of the cases sent to it? Most are decided in the lower courts. Isn't it possible that all SCOTUS has to do is NOT grant cert to any case decided by these puke judges, and Roe v. Wade is gone? They're not able to hear more than 5% of cases, and with so many puke judges, there will be more cases than they can possibly hear. Actually, Roe v. Wade would stand, except in any court or any state where pukes own the courts. It would be theoretical law, rarely if ever upheld.

I think stopping the nuclear option and preserving the filibuster is a good thing, but I'm not sure it is a REAL good thing.

[johnaries]

178. I didn't like it at first because it looks like the worst nominees

will get their appointments. But, I'm starting to change my mind. After someone posted the actual memo, I felt much better about it. Then, someone pointed out that earlier Reid had offered votes on 4 judges, but we only got 3 (that certainly sounds like a victory!). And, Will has made some very good points here.

So, I'm feeling much better about it.

Plus, as someone pointed out in another thread, the FRepers think they lost. That's DEFINITELY a victory. :woohoo:

[BillZBubb]

181. If this is what passes for good strategic thought,

no wonder the Democrats ALWAYS lose. The only thing the Democrats won today was in delaying the vote on the filibuster rule change. The Repugs won everything else.

Bush will get essentially all his nominees appointed--and the three absolute worst right wingers are guaranteed. And we aren't talking about 3 out of 207. Use the meaningful figures, not bullshit spin. We are talking about 3 out of 30 APPELLATE judges, one level below the Supreme Court.

Frist is a non-entity. His fate means nothing strategically to the Democrats. He's a lame duck Senator without a chance to win national elective office--and that was before today.

We lost the chance to show the country just how extreme the Repugs are by allowing them to avoid a rule change vote. We changed nothing about "our ability to do business in the Senate".

We didn't save the filibuster. We just pushed the day of reckoning into the future when the Repugs determine we're not being "fair". Then they'll go nuclear.

Roe is still very much in danger. It depends on how many Supreme Court picks Bush gets to make. Because of the Democrats collapse today, any Bush nominee is pretty much guaranteed to get on the Court. They'll go nuclear if they must at that time and we cannot stop them. They will claim we "violated" the agreement, not them. We'll lose again.

[LoZoccolo]

184. The reason you are seeing people complaining here...

...is the same reason that a dog licks it's balls.

[WilliamPitt]

190. I just peed on myself a little bit reading that

:)

[Spiffarino]

203. "I wish I could do that."

Anybody? Anybody?

[Pachamama]

284. What is it w/ men and their references to ball licking?

And I thought it was just because they could...:shrug:

No, I think the reference that comes to mind on this topic is "that when you lie down with dogs, you wake up w/ fleas" :eyes:

Just because there are those of us who have differing opinions to you and Will, doesn't mean that we are wrong or that you and he need to refer to us as dogs licking their balls or cheap immature comments referring to our feelings and differing opinions as masturbation.

[Swamp Rat]

286. LOL! Nail. Meet. Head.

"Men are such dirty dawgs!" :rofl:

[MikeDuffy]

188. "Critical Thinking -- An Introduction" (by Alec Fisher)

I think you really need to read this book, or others like it -- please!

[bloom]

189. You can see it that way if you want.

The way I see it is - the Republicans wanted these judges. They got 'em. They won.

What did the Democrats get out of it that didn't already have? Nothing.

Could it be worse? Yes.

Who knows what the future will bring. :shrug:

[LibertyorDeath]

194. *

[Auntie Bush]

199. I agree with Will. Look at it this way...

A robber pulls a gun and asks for all your money. You give him your $100 and he says he only needs $50 and gives you back $50.

Now you have a choice...cry about losing $50 or be grateful you only lost $50. It's your decision. I personally would be extremely grateful he didn't take everything and I still had some money to get home.

[RobinA]

214. Actually, I Am

looking at it that way. And I see I've been mugged. Grateful? Ya gotta be kidding me.

[ClintonTyree]

251. Yeah....

a robber is going to give money back to the victim. And Republicans are going to stick to their part of the deal becuase we can take them at their word. :eyes: I've got some prime, beach front land in Arizona I'm trying to sell. Interested?

[Ms. Clio]

266. Right, and then he comes back later and takes the other $50.00

[MSchreader]

201. Yeah, I'm sure you are

After all, no skin off your arse, right? Nevermind that we who work for a living can kiss the right to organize and the minimum wage goodbye, courtesy of Janice Rogers-Brown ... and your beloved "bipartisanship".

Lewis Black was right: The only thing worse than a Republican or a Democrat is when the two pricks work together.

Martin

[autorank]

204. K is so right. Bush shows up for a set piece battle and loses.

When has he lost before. Oh, Social Security for sure but we blocked him at the pass. This one was a full battle. We will not have any assholes on the Supreme Court and we may have a way to keep major league assholes off of the courts for the next three years OR until the election fraud story gets out, along with the memo and the sucker is sent packing.

[ClintonTyree]

276. Another one....

that thinks we can trust Republicans to keep their word. Is there something in the water you guys are drinking, or what? We've already OK'd 3 of the most radical judges imaginable with this deal. I can't think of anyone they could nominate that could be more "extreme". And remember, we can only use the filibuster in "extreme" cases. Oh, and don't forget. Being the majority party means THEY get to dictate what the definition of "extreme" is.
We chickened out of another fight and the American people are going to have their asses handed to them because of it.

[Nothing Without Hope]

205. Links to VIDEO CLIPS, Dem and GOP BLOGS, and DU THEADS on "The Deal"

There certainly is a wide range of commentary on the filibuster deal. I think we won't know who REALLY "won" until we see how the votes for later nominees, especially for the Supreme Court, play out.

Here is a thread with links for video clips and to over a dozen EACH Progressive and GOP blogs:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1804963&mesg_id=1804963
Thread title: “A great filibuster deal BLOG & VIDEO CLIP collection at Crooks & Liars”

And here is a partial list of other DU threads on the filibuster deal:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3712993
Thread title: “CNN Just broke in with ‘Deal made on the filibuster debate’”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3716283
Thread title: “Frist isn't the only one "nutted" by the deal”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1803985
Thread title: “The Democratic Party DID Win, Here's Why”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3714550
Thread title: “All Of Bush's Right-Wing Judges Will Be Approved: Another Great Victory!”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3716065
Thread title: “Ok, I've Ran The Scenarios Over In My Head”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1803255
Thread title: “We Just Preserved the Filibuster for the Supreme Court Nominee”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3713311
Thread title: “I'm glad they made this deal” (Will Pitt)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3714583
Thread title: “CNN: Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) speaks for filibuster deal - (VIDEO)” (2 min video by dzika)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3714881
Thread title: “Whoa! Dobson speaks!”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3713639
Thread title: “Lindsay Graham: ‘The White House is going to have to listen to us.’”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1494887
Thread title: “MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING ON JUDICIAL NOMINATIONS”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1494562
Thread title: “Sen Ben Nelson says deal reached on judges to avoid shutdown”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3714136
Thread title: “Tyranny Averted”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1803669
Thread title: “Reid Claims Victory!”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3716815#3716931
Thread title: “Filibuster compromise: What a CHARADE by both sides.”

[bklyncowgirl]

206. Reserving judgement

Threatening filibuster over five judges and then letting three of them go through in order to save the right to filibuster some time in the future does not sound like a total victory to me.

On the other hand I do love the spectacle of the Cat Killer and the far right wackos having the rug pulled out from underneath them by some of their own.

I predict that politically the big winners will be those moderate Republicans, especially one John McCain, who will be able to use this compromise to show up his currently rather tattered centrist credentials as he prepares his presidential bid. As for the rest, I'll wait and see how the talking heads spin this thing and whether the Democrats show the heart to face down these guys again.

[derby378]

207. Priscilla Owen will be confirmed - that means we lost

I don't care how many Republicans are angry about this deal. The 5th Circuit Court is going to be burdened with an anti-labor, anti-union, anti-women's rights judge. That's one in the "L" column for Democrats in particular and for Americans in general.

[xultar]

208. That isn't what this was about;. It was about the Supreme Court!

what is it about this that people don't understand.

This whole exercise was done before and to save of the supreme court.

[derby378]

210. You're damn right this is about the Supreme Court

On this point, we agree. But my point is that now Priscilla Owen will be a heartbeat away from a nomination onto the Supreme Court. You think I'm sweating only about her making it onto Circuit Five? That's the last stop before SCOTUSville. And for her to get so close to a position on our nation's highest court is just plain scary.

[ClintonTyree]

277. We just rolled out the red carpet.....

for the parade of extremist judges bush wants to appoint. You obviously don't understand the wording of the "compromise". Read between the lines and you'll see we've gained nothing and given bush carte blanch. Oy vey!

[Vinca]

209. What an optimistic posting.

If there's a betting line on whether the Republicans will again want to do away with the filibuster when a Supreme Court nominee is opposed, I'm selling the house and taking all the cash to Vegas.

[DFLer4edu]

211. This is exactly what the party should be saying, but

the reality is that it was a victory for John McCain and there is nothing stopping them from pulling the nuclear option back out onto the table. The bla bla about 'not filibustering unless there are extraordinary circumstances' is a legitimate concern. As although it is up to the dems to define extraordinary circumstances, it is up to republicans to say whether we correctly defined it. So we could be looking at the nuclear option in the near future.

We can all be happy though that Frist has been at least temporarily castrated by his own people.

[Itsthetruth]

215. You Got It Wrong William: Senator Feingold Got It Right

Statement of Senator Russ Feingold on Tonight's Decision Regarding Judicial Nominees and the Filibuster

May 23, 2005

This is not a good deal for the U.S. Senate or for the American people. Democrats should have stood together firmly against the bullying tactics of the Republican leadership abusing their power as they control both houses of Congress and the White House. Confirming unacceptable judicial nominations is simply a green light for the Bush administration to send more nominees who lack the judicial temperament or record to serve in these lifetime positions. I value the many traditions of the Senate, including the tradition of bipartisanship to forge consensus. I do not, however, value threatening to disregard an important Senate tradition, like occasional unlimited debate, when necessary. I respect all my colleagues very much who thought to end this playground squabble over judges, but I am disappointed in this deal.

http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/statements/05/05/2...

[jmcon007]

216. One more time...What did we gain from this?

Bush has an up or down vote on all his nominees UNLESS there are 'extraordinary circumstances'.
Unless it was explained in the agreement (which it wasn't) that a Priscilla Owen or JRB nomination would be considered "extraordinary circumstances" when it comes to nominating (appointing is more like it) a Supreme Court justice, we have gained absolutely nothing.
The Republicans are pasting on frowns for the cameras, but they have to be high-fiving behind closed doors. They won. We lost.
We have way too many John Kerry white-flaggers in the party.

[ClintonTyree]

217. I disagree Will.....

We "saved" the filibuster we can never use, we "de-nutted" Frist, yeah, like he's really going to go away because of this, and how you figure we "saved Roe v. Wade" is beyond me. They'll continue railroading these radical, activist Judges past us unobstructed because we have promised to only use the filibuster in extreme cases. Don't forget, it's the ruling Party that will define the word "extreme" in this situation. Precedent has been set with these three nut cases we've agreed to pass. There aren't any more extreme than those.
I can't believe you actually think we can trust the Republicans to keep their end of the bargain here anyway. You should know full well who we're dealing with, and it isn't the Party of honesty, integrity and truth.
I'm sure the DLC is delighted with this "compromise". We've come another step closer to being indistinguishable from moderate Republicans. Yes, a great victory. :eyes:

[jmcon007]

218. One more time....What did we gain from this?

Bush has an up or down vote on all his wild-eyed nominees UNLESS there are 'extraordinary circumstances'.
Unless it was explained in the agreement (which it wasn't) that a Priscilla Owen or JRB nomination would be considered "extraordinary circumstances" when it comes to nominating/appointing a Supreme Court justice, we have gained absolutely nothing. They will simply nuke if we balk on the Supremes.
The Republicans are pasting on frowns for the cameras, but they have to be high-fiving behind closed doors. They won. We lost.
We have way too many John Kerry white-flaggers in the party.

[Andy_Stephenson]

220. I have to agree.

pink tutu dems strike again. This whole thing reeks and I am not happy about the "deal" at all.

Spin it however you want...we lost!

[CanOfWhoopAss]

221. Roe V. Wade is never going to be lost and if it is so what?

Repukes use "Roe" as a rallying point to get their base fired up and to the polls. I highly doubt they will allow it to be completely dismanteld because not all repukes are anti-choice. If they do then let them dismantle so it is shown what they are willing and caple of doing and pro-choice repukes and conservative dems will get off their @$$e$.

Now they have 3 judges they wanted and they can re-package the nuclear option as some other more palatable catch phrase and ram it down our throats at a later date. They already are re-packaging it they just didn't have the time they needed to put a new face on it.

Dems keep the fillibuster and never use it. Once again Dems show how weak they are in the face of repuke heat and capitulate. How can Dems show strength to the world when they can't show strength in the face of a repuke onslaught?

[lastliberalintexas]

225. What an incredibly naive post

You really think that we saved the filibuster? What we have is an agreement that saves the filibuster so long as we don't try to use it. They haven't taken the nuclear option off the table, and are free to raise its specter any time they damn well please- which will of course be the first time the Democrats threaten to filibuster a Bush nominee.

What we've done is put people into lifetime appointments and in positions which in many respects is far more important than the precious Supreme Court position for which we've supposedly saved the filibuster tool.

Only 3 more? Yeah, 3 more people who will have a much more profound effect on more issues than any one SC justice. They are very young, and along with Bush's other appointments will be able to re-shape the justice system for their corporate masters. The only thing the Democrats were doing wrong in filibustering these 3 was not being even more vocal about it- and for not filibustering even more of Bush's nominees!

I can't believe so many here are celebrating such a Pyrrhic victory.

[InvisibleTouch]

226. I tend to agree.

This is still dead of morning for me, so bear with me ... I stumbled to the computer with my cup of coffee, and one of the first things I found was a news article on Yahoo describing this last-minute deal. As I'm reading it, I was wondering, "Did we win or did we lose?" It certainly sounded like the right-wing wacko brigade was a lot more displeased with the deal than was our side. Robert Byrd, certainly, seemed relieved and elated. Upon reflection, I think we won - mostly. Could have been better, certainly. But it could have been a lot, lot worse. Now let's hope the Dems do in fact use the filibuster as they've promised.

[Parrothead Terp]

227. We Lose in the longrun

Am I the only one who thinks what happened in the Senate last night is going to come back to bite us in the butt. First we let through a few conservative judges. Now I know we did it to save the filibuster for the SCOTUS nominees. However, we did not do this. Bush is going to nominate 1,2, maybe even 3 judges to the bench that are going to be to the right of Clarence Thomas. The democrats are going to say this is an extreme and filibuster. As soon as this happens, Frist and the boys are going to change the senate rules. The republicans are going to blame the democrats for breaking the agreement, claiming that this is not an extreme situation, and we are going to lose out on all ends.



The democrats were on the winning side of this argument, and the republicans were in a no win situation. If they did this “nuclear” option, it would have been seen as a power grab by most Americans. If they did not do it, they will have pissed off their base. Now their base is pissed, but it is only temporary. In the next 12 months we will visit this again, but this time with a SCOTUS nominee. When that is over all the people claiming the democrats won today, will look like idiots.

[lonestarnot]

229. NOT! WE DID A GREAT JOB! Our weaponry has been extremely paired

down in case you have forgotten!

[Parrothead Terp]

235. I have not forgotten

That is why this is a bad deal. In the end we are going to lose this fight. We could of done what we did last night, or let the republicans have to change the senate rules and look like they are making a big power grab. The country is clearly against changing the senate rules, so make the republicans make that decision. We just made their life a lot easier, and we are going to look bad doing it. Sometime before the '06 midterms Bush is going to appoint a SCOTUS judge. Then when we fillibuster, we are going to see everyone on tv talking about how the democrats broke their end of the deal. So when they do use the "nuclear" option, it is goin to be because the democrats broke the deal. If we forced them to do it now, it was a powergrab.

[lonestarnot]

291. Nope you have it wrong. We are not the deal breakers...we are the

deal brokers for the time being.

[The White Tree]

230. I hope your right but I just don't think so.

Unless Democrats make gains in the Senate in 2006, what happened today will be largely a moot point in regards to the use of the filibuster and judicial numinations.

As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be suprised if we see some kind of acceleration of nominations of judges by the Bush Administration all progressively more conservative and more polarizing to try to push the issue.

Basically the way I see it, the filibuster is a dead proposition now for judicial nominees. It may have been before but it really is now. If a nominee like Pricilla Owens is not too extreme to require "extradinary measures" then who would be?

From what I understand, Republicans have changed all the rules regarding judges to the point that the only ways to prevent one from being approved is a) through up or down vote and b) through filibuster. Up or Down vote in these partisan times is a non-starter. What Republican would vote against the Presidents nominee when faced with the right-wing attack machine layed out against them.

That leaves only the filibuster, and the minute that is attempted, then the nuclear option comes out and we are right back where we were only with this precedent set today. I watched Chris Mathews grill Senator Ben Nelson on what "extraordinary measures" meant. He could not really answer satisfactorily. In that sense, we will always loose in the court of public opinion.

The only way I'd see this as a victory would be if some Republicans defected and voted down the nomination of Owens on the principal that she is too extreme (because she is) and I don't think they would do that.

Sadly, the irony of all this is that once again Republicans, who say they want to get government out of our lives, are actually pushing it into our lives more and more. Now the only way to battle this is going to be for every nomination that is objectionable to have a highly publicized campaign to advocate for and against the candidate.
Maybe when that has played out enough people will have had enough and comity can again come back to the Senate with regard to the judiciary.

[demo dutch]

240. I totally agree! Extraordinary circumstances will be in the eye

of the beholder but more so how the repugs with help of the MSM will spin it in order to sway public opinion. They have been successfull more often than not!

[lonestarnot]

231. Me too.

[Callboy]

234. loser mentality abounds

you get what you deserve, talking like that. so beaten down that a mild whoooping looks like a massage.....

[Strawman]

236. We lived to fight another day

But we haven't saved Roe yet. If Bush nominates a judge who opposes Roe to replace a judge who supports Roe, Dems will filibuster and the Repubs will be pressured to try this manuver again to either ram the nominee through or to try to get us to cave in. Still, I prefer them being forced to try this power grab in the spotlight of that kind of battle than in the relatively low key battles for lower court nominees. I think we are in a better position to fend them off in the mother of all confirmation battles. If they had gotten rid of the filibuster now it would have been relatively smooth sailing later for someone like John Ashcroft replacing someone like Sandra Day O'Connor or John Paul Stevens.

[Walt Starr]

237. People are missing the HUGE SILVER LININGS, too

Snowe, Chaffee, DeWine, all will have strong opposition in their primaries. Possible pickups for the Dems.

Watch and see, this move could possibly win back the Senate for the Dems because the frothing at the mouth base of these folks is set to challenge in a primary.

[dxstone]

238. Hey, CHECK IT OUT WILL... they couldn't even wait a day!

Rodeodance just started the following thread:

Sen Cornyn R. Tx-saying that this agreement is just a delay, does not resolve the problem--cspan-2

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3718236

Are you still sure we won here?
D

[GalleryGod]

296. Like "Little Shop of Horrors"

Feed Me!
FEED ME!
FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED Me!:puke:

[Pacifist Patriot]

239. Thank you.

It's times like these I wonder why in the hell I ever gave any thought to running for office at all. I think I'll come back when the negativity dies down.

[dogday]

241. There are two sides to this Deal

One, yes we tore Frist a new one but alot of the Democrats are upset because we believe our people caved in and got nothing. Republicans get their vote and we get the right to maybe filibuster in extraordinary circumstances. The issue of a Nuclear Option can be brought up again so therefore, take 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

[cordelia106]

245. Is this a victory ?

Is this a victory for the side of good?I guess we have to keep this in proper perspective:Congress operates using compromise.The neo-con/fascists do not want any compromise,they want their way.As
unhappy I am that these three wing-nut judges are going to be confirmed,and the right wing well continue to threaten to do away
with debate to get their way;it is much more a victory than it is
a defeat.However,down the line, and soon, another threat to do away with the filibuster well be made.We well see what happens then.

[GeorgeGist]

246. Drinking Kool-Aid

makes you real nauseating somedays, Will. Hope you get over it soon.

[Festivito]

248. "We saved Roe" B.S. Roe is THEIR golden-egg goose.

They WANT to string Roe our as long as they can while they make gays their NEXT money maker.

Frist is denutted... good! SHORT-TERM GAIN.
Any use of the fillibuster will bury us in rhetoric for political LIFETIMES.

Bad thing. K?

[Orion The Hunter]

249. RE: The New Deal

I must concur with WilliamPitt - I think this deal was good insofar as ensuring that no seriously right wing whackos will get a crack at the Supreme Court. Yeah not overjoyed that three more Bush appointees made it, but its a small price to pay to ensure the Supreme Court does not get another Scalia or Thomas.

[ClintonTyree]

275. What's to stop them....

from putting seriously right wing whackos in the Supreme Court? The filibuster? We can't use it. Well we could, if there was ever an "extreme" case, but we've set the bar very low with Owens and the the like. There aren't many that could "out extreme" that bunch. And Scalia now being the Chief Justice? That's ensured now, he already sits on the Supreme Court, he can't be deemed "extremist" now, can he.

I really hope I'm wrong, but after 54 years of watching those cheap thugs in action I don't have much faith any more. I think some are bring terribly naive about the consequences of this "compromise".

[DARE to HOPE]

250. Look who is crying, then look who said we can now sleep at night!

Frist-crying Reid-sleeping

Grassley is now pouring out his tears to Tweety that the moderates have taken over the negotiating role with the White House, that the judiciary committee is being pushed aside, and the MODERATES will be TELLING BUSH who is acceptable and who is NOT!

We live in treacherous times, dear friends. These moderate Republicans, including Lindsay Graham, have drawn their line in the sand in the faces of the BFEE, and said "NO!" They and the rest of the Fourteen have saved the Senate, an institution the Bushies have worked hard to destroy, and have taken back some of its power from the executive.

We HAVE won. The country, our dear country, has been saved from the precipice.



P.S. That the Repubs LOSE was a personal birthday request from me to the God I love. :-) I just got home from playing for the practice for our kindergarten and pre-school's graduation which will be tomorrow night. They said their little pledge of allegiance, and sang "This Land Is Your Land"--and I wept. God lead all the good hearted people in this land--I heard an amazing speech from Sen Salazar castigating the "Christian" right. "We are NOT divided"--and "we SHALL OVERCOME" one of these days, dear friends.

[lancdem]

252. I'm with you, Will

Also, Lindsay Graham said Monday one of those three won't have enough votes to pass, which is good news as well.

[Columbus]

253. A Dark Day for the Republic

This agreement is the Finlandization of the Senate Democrats. Anyone who thinks this is a victory is any way is delusional.

Check out the below quote at http://www.ohiohonestelections.org/


"Filibuster Appeasement — A Dark Day for the Republic: DeWine said that if Democrats block floor votes of future nominees to the Supreme Court and appeals bench, he and the other Republicans would join Frist in changing the filibuster rule."

[dxstone]

256. There ya have it! DeWine AND Cornyn! (see post 238 just upthread)

Thanx, Columbus!
THIS is how I read it:

THIS TIME the Dems backed down.
NEXT TIME, the Reeps will point to this surrender and say, "SEE? They HAD to back down because the law was on OUR side!"... and though that will be another LIE, it will be a far more plausible lie this next time around... and then they WILL nuke the filibuster, and our good Dems will have played their part in this Roveian passion play to an absolute T...
Yay! What a win!
EARTH TO WILL! EARTH TO WILL!
DANGER, WILL PITT! WARNING! MY HOOKS ARE FLAILING WILDLY!
WE HAVE BEEN FORCIBLY SODOMIZED IN EVERY ORIFICE AT ONCE!... and we got NOTHING for our trouble, save for a kiss and a handshake and another empty promise, which they're ALREADY talking about going back on at the VERY FIRST OPPORTUNITY!!!
GREAT fuckin' deal, man... just great!
D

[JerseygirlCT]

255. I agree, Will

And I also think that when they attempt to go nuclear again (and they will, as soon as we filibuster something or threaten to do so), they won't have the momentum to do it. The air just went out of this. Frist is done. McCain looks good -- well, personally, if I had to deal with a Republican, I'd rather deal with the likes of him than of Frist. We'll be running against SOMEONE in '08.

Frist is done, the far right radicals making up the majority of the GOP are done. They've been done in by their own. Even better.

We're only treading water now anyway. We're out of power, we need to get back in. This gives us time.

[Zeebo]

257. Not Glad! This is being spun by some as a victory for Democrats...

It is not. Frist really didn't lose anything. He got exposure in the national spotlight and was able to stay firm with his base. Plus he was able to get Bush's most radical right judges up or down votes. Feingold is absolutely correct, we should not haved blinked first. Disappointing to say the least.

[TheForge]

268. Let's hope George Allen doesn't get much more attention.

Personally I'm hoping this makes McCain look good, because that wacko George Allen has been trying to play this into his court and I would go as far as saying that he is a lot worse then Bush, and I really hate Bush.

[jhain]

258. 'Folks, they just de-nutted Frist.'

'Folks, they just de-nutted Frist. His own people did it. Frist had stapled himself to killing the filibuster as a means of allying himself with the wacko right so he could run for president. His own people swung around behind him and cut his Achilles heels.'

You got it, Will.

Watching Frist twist and squirm in utter, desperate defensiveness last night was good. Good, I tell you. He almost seemed physically afraid- as if the rightwingwackjobs were gonna bump him off at home about 2:00 am. Maybe put him on life support...
He fervently disassociated himself from the deal..

It is GOOD.

[demo dutch]

259. I don't know!! The WH announced it's very pleased with the deal!

it's getting their nominees appointed

[Orion The Hunter]

261. RE: Look big picture

It is important to bear in mind what this solution does in a larger context: By effectively showing that moderate and more senior Republican law makers are not in favor of "nuclear option" tactics, and that they will vote against such tactics in the future, behavior which will lead to such a future crisis will most likely be averted since it is now more likely that the "nuclear option" will not pass muster.

What this means, in the larger context of confirmations, is that if the White House tries to propose a real right wing nutjob for a seat on the Supreme Court (a move which would not even sit well with several moderates within the Republican Party who helped fashion this compromise), then the Democrats can filibuster such a choice and the Republicans have to know they have little chance of getting such a choice through the confirmation. This fact will help steer the Administration towards selecting a moderate (albeit still Republican) choice for the high court, as well as for other such future postings.

[Janice325]

262. Thanks, Will!

I agree with everything you posted, Will. However, I still have a feeling that this might be only a temporary reprieve, and that everything will soon spin out of control again, for who knows what reason. I certainly hope I'm wrong.
Won't the 7 Repubs possibly face problems back home in their own districts as a result of this "compromise?"

[BrightKnight]

271. It affords more time to get the message out.

Frist threatened to nuke constitutional democracy over a few wing-nuts. They would replace representative democracy with one party rule. A simple majority has never held absolute power in this country. This is not the way our government was conceived or the way that it has ever worked. We do not simply ignore the will of 49% of the voters. It should not be that difficult to communicate this. The only thing good about the deal is that it affords more time to get the message out.

This was nuclear blackmail and everyone knows it.

The Repugs will pay political price for this. They would pay a very heavy price if they nuked the filibuster.

[donheld]

273. Of course you're right

We still have many battles to fight but this was a win.

[s-cubed]

274. I agree, Will,

This is a tremendous power shift. Anytime you have two warring camps and have a group that can form a coalition to bridge the two, the power shifts. First has lost power, and the moderates have seized it. It shows that at least some people in congress are reading those poll numbers. I'd just as soon not have McCain looking like a moderate either - I was repulsed by how he backed Bush in the campaign - but I'm glad to see saner heads prevail.

[GalleryGod]

294. I DISagree, Will

Three more "check marks" on Rove's :rant:
"Honey Do List":argh:

[mirrera]

279. Patronizingly wrong...

Will,
Now that you are a strong part of PDA, a group I signed up for as soon as their site was up, you might want to tone down the father bear speaking to idiot children tone. You have no idea who the population of "hysterics" are. You respond immediately to someone who insinuates that WE are responding to this incredibly important issue like a "dog who licks his balls". You respond like a frat boy to that poster, yet have no compassionate response to the articulate analysis that is all over DU, that —gasp— differs from yours. Now I read your writing... I forward your excellent essays to my 50 some person list, but who you are on DU makes me worry about your influence on PDA. I remember once you mentioned being invigorated by the battles ahead. I fear that testosterone attitude has helped get the planet in this mess. This is not a game to many of us. Not a contest over whose balls get stuffed, whacked, shoved into places they don't belong and whatever other boy's analogy floats your boat. Some of us have draft age kids, some of us have ill family and no health care, some are unemployed and see no prospects.

We have criminals in our administration and the only broadcast opposition is from George Galloway. It is time for TRUTH not politics. We are chasing our tails. If we don't have the votes so be it! Let us do the right thing for history so that we can hold our heads up to our children's children. Better dignity and losses then Faustian deals to delay those losses.

The great thing about truth, dignity, and conscience is you attract the right kind of friends.

The Democrats caved and the Emperor has no clothes.


www.nobullshirt.com

[jmcon007]

282. I agree. I have sometimes considered myself a bit of a fence

straddler on some issues.....and have worried about it. But, not here. The scenario if we had held our ground:

We filibuster. They nuke. Guess what? Owen and JRB are in, just like they are now, anyway.

But, in this scenario the popularity of Congressional neonuts goes down another 8 to 10 points as they are perceived by the population as arrogant and bullying. The fourteen were more concerned about being individually perceived as the rescuers of our democracy....which is a load of crap.

As hard as I try, as things have turned out I see absolutely nothing that has been gained by the Democrats and, by extension, our country in this farce. These neonuts continue to have their way and Rome continues to burn.

The Roveian nut cases are laughing all the way to the Supreme Court!

[mirrera]

283. The game can't be won on their terms...

If I hear one more person talk about "framing" I will throw up. TRUTH works for most Americans. We are the Minority, our only weapon is being right and we are not using it!

www.nobullshirt.com

[Swamp Rat]

287. "The Democrats caved and the Emperor has no clothes."

Thank you.

[spanone]

288. Swamp Rat Strikes Again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Another lounge lizard exposed.

[GalleryGod]

295. Right. Seems like the Circle is gettin' smaller,here, at Little Big Horn?

fall back and retrench!
I am sick of it !

[efhmc]

290. Can tell that you have not been the beneficiary of the wonderful rw

judges of Texas but you are, as the saying goes "fixing to".

[geckosfeet]

299. its like cutting a dogs tail off 1 inch at time,, compromising like

this is the same as taking a "more centrist position". Eventually they will be shoved right through the center into the "conservative zone".

Yes they may have saved their asses for the time being but this whole sorry scenario will be replayed if a supreme court nomination is filibustered.

Next time, that dog better turn around, bare its teeth and snarl real loud cause its tail is getting too short to be worth anything.

[Laurab]

300. I'm with Will here

naive as I may be, I am incredibly relieved. I was prepared to stay up all night during the battle, and watch in the morning as our democracy finally officially died. It didn't. The dems still have a reason to be in Washington. We can fight another day. I don't think it was by any means a great win, but it was a win nonetheless.

Had the repukes done what they were planning on doing, I believe they would have won. No more two-party system at ALL. The dems could have all gone home, because being in Washington would have been a sham. It would have offically been one-party rule. You can stand on principle all you want, but I think we would have lost, so standing on principle would have gained us nothing. The average Joe six pack has no idea of what we were on the verge of losing. We have now gained at least a little more time to educate people on what is really at stake here.

When I talk to people (democrats) who aren't all that interested in politics, they really had NO idea what was going on, and it was no big deal to them. Obviously there is a lot of work to be done in educating the average american voter.

Frist was a very unhappy man when he got the news - and I don't think he was acting. The far right is calling the 7 repubs "traitors" and worse. I heard some idiot on c-span say McCain was "toast" because of what he did, and that none of the 7 would be re-elected to anything.

I don't doubt that the repukes will bring up the nuclear option again - I don't trust them anymore than I did before. I DO, however, think we lived to fight another day, and won a battle against the far right. If nothing else, we bought time. The radical right nutcases are all over the place making ridiculous statements, and hopefully that too will help.

The judges were going to get in no matter what, in my opinion. We would not have had the votes to stop the nuclear option, although I think it would have been close. Close wouldn't have been good enough. I'm just happy that we still have a tiny bit of a democracy left, and when the battle comes up again, hopefully more people will be paying attention.

[ArkDem]

301. cut his Achilles heels?????

[FighttheFuture]

302. Three new virulent cancers injected into the body politic....

How much more can we take? I fear it is already terminal!