To Stop a War - Welcome SGT Kevin Benderman & his wife Monica to DU (Pt 2)

[Tinoire]

This week-end we had the honor of meeting Kevin and Monica Benderman. Kevin is an Active Duty US Army Sergeant who refused to return to Iraq due to his conscientious objection against this war. He and his wife Monica have been graciously answering questions people have and explaining the soldiers' side of this war- stories you won't hear about on Fox or CNN. Stories such as soldiers being sent back to Iraq in shackles to fight a war they don't support.

Stories that will make you weep.

The first thread is over 200 posts now and has gotten too long so I'm starting a second one.

Thank you for the terrific welcome you've given Kevin and Monica.

PEACE!

Continued from thread 1:
To Stop a War - Welcome SGT Kevin Benderman and his wife Monica to DU!!!


Goooood morning DemocraticUnderground!!!

For years we watched appalled as the neo-con machine overtook our country, aghast that we couldn't stop it, aghast that our politicians embarked on another leg of their insatiable thirst for oil and gun-boat imperialism to reshape the world in a more subservient manner.

We couldn't stop them despite our faxes, our phone calls and our protests. We couldn't stop the neo-chickenhawks from slaughtering innocent Iraqis and sacrificing young American men to do so.

The tide is turning! Foreign leaders are calling our political leadership thieves, liars and courageous soldiers are adamantly saying NO.

Without further ado, please, allow me to introduce to you Kevin Benderman and his awe-inspiring, kick-ass wife, Monica.



They have graciously agreed to answer any questions DUers may have and if they can't, they'll just tell us they can't answer.

I think they prefer to talk about soldiers more than anything because what they are doing is to help soldiers see that they do still have a voice, and that they should be using it, especially now.

Since Kevin's last hearing fiasco, many more soldiers have come forward in support of Kevin because they are starting to see that both Kevin and Monica are speaking for them. That is something they would like to address in this thread as well.



"We tell the truth, and we tell everything we know. We do our best to give people the perspective of soldiers and family members. Kevin's case, and the mess going on with the Conscientious Objector application need to be talked about because there are about 2000 soldiers who have been denied CO status. We want to show them that they have options, and we want them to know that they shouldn't give up.


Let's not be shy - let's give them a WARM welcome, ask whatever questions we have and see how we can help stop this damn war.

On April 28, 2005, Representative Cynthia McKinney entered Kevin Benderman into the Congressional record as an American Hero.

Welcome Kevin and Monica!!!

==================

(Please see thread 1 for active links)

The Deserters: AWOL Crisis Hits the American Forces by Andrew Buncombe, The Independent, May 16, 2005.
New charge added as second investigative inquiry starts in Benderman's case by Kelly Cramer, Savannah Morning News, May 12, 2005.
New Hearing Ordered for Objecting Soldier by Russ Bynum Associated Press), The Guardian, Thursday May 12, 2005
Interview with Kevin and Monica Benderman by Dori Smith, WHUS Storrs, Radio for the People, May 4, 2005.
Conscientious Objector status for Army Sgt. Kevin Benderman Denied by Robert S. Finnegan, Online Journal.com, April 29, 2005.
Defense lawyer, investigator square off over Benderman's conscientious objector application by Mike Fabey, Savannah Morning News, March 28, 2005.
Two years after the war began, a growing number of US troops are refusing to return to Iraq by Suzanne Goldenberg, The Guardian, March 19, 2005.
Opponents of War: Kevin Benderman, Alvin York and the Voice of Conscience by Joel T. Helfrich, Dissident Voice, March 17, 2005.
Kevin and Monica Benderman on Air America's "The Charles Goyette Show," Thursday, March 17, 2005 (Click here for Audio Link 1 Click here for Audio Link 2
Kevin Benderman interviewed by Amy Goodman on the "Democracy Now" radio program, Tuesday, March 15, 2005Click here for link to program audio and transcript
Court Martial Date Set: Soldier prepares rebuttal for recommendation to deny him conscientious objector status Savannah Morning News, March 8, 2005.
Soldier seeking conscientious objector status loses a roundSavannah Morning News, March 2, 2005.
Kevin Benderman interview on National Public Radio (NPR), Army Sergeant Refuses Return to Iraq; February 28, 2005.
Court-Martial Recommended for Soldier; New York Times, February 23, 2005.
Recommendation:Benderman Faces Court-Martial on Desertion Charge Savannah Morning News, February 22, 2005.
Some in Military Just Say No to Iraq Service; St. Louis Post-Dispatch, February 19, 2005.
One Man Has Stopped Killing; ZNet, February 18, 2005.
Sincerity questioned: Sergeant seeking conscientious objection status defends timing and conviction of request; Savannah Morning News, February 8, 2005.
"Breaking Ranks to Shun War," Los Angeles Times, Column One, Front Page, February 7, 2005; article currently only for purchase on the LA Times website, but available for free on the Common Dreams website.
Uncertain Desertion, " Savannah Morning News, February 7, 2005.

Other Recent Articles About Kevin



Soldier Charged for Refusing Return to Iraq; CNN, January 21, 2005.
Army Charges Soldier for Refusing Iraq Stint; MSNBC,January 20, 2005.
U.S. Army Sergeant Kevin Benderman Charged for Refusal to Return to Iraq; Axis of Logic, January 19, 2005.

Ain't Gonna Study War No More; Salon.com, January 17, 2005.
Soldier Explains Refusual to Return to Iraq; CNN, January 17, 2005.
Army Sergeant Refuses 2nd Iraq Deployment; CNN, January 13, 2005.
U.S. Army Sergeant May Refuse Re-Deployment to Iraq; Information Clearinghouse, January 5, 2005.

From: http://www.bendermandefense.org

[stellanoir]

1. Where are they ?

Well, if they show up. . .welcome back. :hi:

My 'puter always crashes when I go into excessively long threads .

So I'll ask two dumb questions that have probably already been posted. . .

What is the current status of his case?

What can we do to help?

[Terran1212]

2. Questions from Terran

Do you believe that a large show of public support such as a protest outside whereever your hearing is being held, will help?
Organizing one would be great.

What do you think the mentality of the Establishment is in staying in Iraq? Do they believe in the messianic vision of democracy or are they there for more sinister reasons and using democracy as a cover?

[monicab]

9. Thank you

Thank you for your questions. Just wanted you to know they've been read. When Kevin gets home, he can address them.

I can tell you that for the first hearing, the military was obviously afraid that a crowd might appear. They had MP's and civilian police surrounding the courthouse, and barricades to keep people distant.

They cannot keep people from the courtroom. The public is welcome, and we encourage any who would like to, to attend. There were not large numbers during the first CM because many people were in CA for Pablo Paredes.

We are most assuredly encouraged by the support that people show for Kevin. It helps others to become aware of what they try to avoid.

I'm sure that Kevin would address the questions in more detail. But I know that he would support any efforts to help soldiers be aware of what is happening.

As far as the Establishment.. who can say what they are thinking? It is my experience that when people tell the truth, it's easy to know what they are thinking, and to see the path they most likely will take. When it's tough to see, and they have trouble spelling things out, it seems to me that it's because they, themselves, can't remember what they were thinking, or how they got where they are. And.. when people have sinister intent, all of the above mentioned remains the same.

I'll let Kevin express his own thoughts on both of these questions.

Thanks again.

[monicab]

39. protests

First of all I want you all to know that I appreciate the support that I have gotten from everyone, although I think a well organized public show of support is beneficial I feel that getting letters to congress in an organized and professional manner would have more impact for the bigger picture of peace in general.

A protest outside the courthouse would be good to bring it to the attention of the local populace and you are welcome to come to Ft. Stewart to attend the proceedings as they are open to the public. But I feel that this is more than just about me, it is about obtaining and keeping peace for everyone in the world.

As far as the establishment goes I can't answer for them and usually the fringe gets blown away in shuffle for the truth anyway.

The truth always has the nasty habit of surfacing despite attempts to cover it up.

[monicab]

3. we're here... :-)

Hi Stella..

Thank you for your offer of support. I don't know if it would help to go to our website, www.bendermandefense.org. There are lots of links there, and some ideas to support Kevin as well as other soldiers.

Thank you!!! Monica

[stellanoir]

4. thanks and will do

shortly. . .

best to both of you !!!

[monicab]

38. case status

The status of the case is back to square one with what is known in the army as an Article 32 hearing which is used a discovery tool so the investigating officer can determine if there is enough credible evidence to send the case to court martial and the extent of severity of the court martial; there are 3 levels, summary, special, and general courts martial.

How you can help is to go to www.bendermandefense.org and look over what is there. We have links posted to write to the congresswoman that has been very helpful to us with this endeavor

[monicab]

5. Another soldier's story

The reply to this post is another letter we received from a soldier needing help. We have withheld her name, but we have forwarded her letter on to Congresswoman McKinney.

We hope that, by posting these, people will see that the sacrifice soldiers make is not just a physical one (in terms of wounds, casualties, PTSD) from the result of combat. The enlisted ranks are told not to speak out.. they are told to focus on the unit, to follow orders of command, and not to say a word about anything that happens. Some enlisted soldiers are daring to speak...

[monicab]

6. Letter from a soldier -

My name is SPC _____ and I am part of the 3rd Infantry Division. I have been stationed here for 3 1/2 years. I came into the Army from high school to pay for college. I came in as a cook and when that enlistment was up, I went into the National Guard to help me with school, as well. In 2001, I was having trouble with the N.G. paying me while I was working full time for a recruiter. For nearly 3 months, I went without a paycheck. I panicked and didn't know where to go to after all of my pay inquirires lead me to a dead end. I felt that the only way to avoid an eviction and the repossesion of my car was to come back into the army. So, much to my chagrin, I re-enlisted as a medic in April of 2001 (6 months before I would havee ETS'ed. I did not want to be in the military anymore at this point, but I felt helpless and I needed an income.
During AIT, I stayed in the prior service barracks so I had a lot of time to myself. I did a lot of thinking. I realized during these two months how against war I am. So, a few months after reporting to my unit at Ft. Stewart, I applied for Conscientious Objection status. In 2002, my request was turned down. I assume that it was because my letter wasn't compelling enough. I haven't reapplied for Consciencious Objectir status because, from what I understand, the basis of my beliefs would have to differ from my original application.
I feel that, up until recently, I had ended up lucky because I later found out that I was a month pregnant when I received the bad news that my request had been turned down. Under normal circumstances, I would have requested seperation from the army at that time. But, my husband and I were still paying off debts that we owed due to the lack of pay I dealt with from the National Guard. We couldn't support a child with the debt that we had.
To this day, we are still making progress on our payments- we are very close to our goal financially. But, because we're not out of the hole yet and we do have a toddler, I realize that the consequences of my actions will affect my family. So I am contacting you in hopes of getting help with a new dynamic that makes me worried about going to Iraq. I am scheduled to fly between Wednesday and Friday of this week. And my brother is dying.
_____ is a 26 year old who, for the most part is very healthy. But, he has a fast growing brain tumor. Microscopic traces of this tumor were detected in the MRI after his two surgeries. He's gone through 6 weeks of rdiation and chemotherapy. He's taking a month off from therapy before he starts intense chemo. for (hopefully) a year. ____ is my only sibling and the doctors don't expect him to survive for more than a year. I am to be in Iraq for 12-18 months.
I have applied for a Compassionate Reassignment for Colorado. He lives about two hours from Ft. Carson,CO. My request for this reassignment has been turned down at Division Level because they "need 105% of it's deployable soldiers in Iraq." My mind is on my family just as much as the next person. On top of the normal concerns that are to be expected while in Iraq, I have so many worries about the only sibling that I have. So, I my head is definitely not 105% in the game.
Yes, I am a Conscientiuos Objector, whether the Army recognizes that or not. But, my mind is more on being closer to my younger brother than it is on my feelings about being in the war or in the military. Those factors definitely exist, but I am really concentrating on ____, who may or may not be here when I return from Iraq.
If there is anything that you can do to help me, please let me know what I need to do. I have thought about refusing to fly, but I don't want my family to suffer financially due to my behavior. Jail is not an option for me, either, so I plan to do the right thing. But, I do need some guidance on how to fight the Divisions decision without causing myself any uneeded trouble.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[eridani]

23. ....the solution will show itself in the form of peace,,,

I seriously hope so. I'm more the Noam Chomsky sourball type. When I hear "peace is inevitable," even from my favorite primary candidate, I think "yes, but only if we choose it, and succeed at working for it." The alternative, that the planet's experiment with conscious intelligence will be over in a massive die-off before we even get a chance to explore the universe, is too appalling to dwell on.

http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/talk.politics.peace/msg00009.html

Peace is inevitable, but we have to insist on the power of our humanity to bring forth this new possibility. "Come, my friends! Tis not too late to seek a newer world!" said the poet Tennyson.

[monicab]

26. peace is inevitable..

before we can get enough people working for it.. we have to get them to believe in it.

if they can see that we are moving forward with that premise.. and if they can see that our Iraqi friends are still going strong with that premise.. and if they can see that people are standing together FOR that premise..

then more will come to believe in it.

we believe... so we do the work to make it happen. and the work we do isn't that hard.. because we know it's leading us to the inevitable.

PEACE!!!!!

[Auntie Bush]

7. Do you think we are winning this war?

Or maybe I should ask if you think we could win and have peace in the future or is it a futile goal?

What, if any, News Media does the best job of telling the truth regarding Iraq?

[monicab]

34. we are winning...

it may not be this Iraq war... we can only speculate and let time show the answer to that specific.. but the war for PEACE.. is being won - one person at a time. It's slow, and sometimes it feels that every day there is a setback, but we reach someone new every day, even if it's just planting a seed. The very fact that someone approaches us means that there must be something in their thought process that is getting them to ask questions. Even the people who call Kevin a coward - if they write to us, or talk with us, that gives us a chance to tell them about our experiences and plant a seed. It may not start growing for years, but at least it's there, and it will work in time.

Just don't stop believing.

[redqueen]

8. Welcome Sgt. Kevin & Monica!

:hi:

Do you think most right-wingers would call you a traitor for not keeping your mouth shut during wartime, or only the looney-toons variety of right-winger?

[monicab]

40. right wingers

I believe that you have the extreme elements on both sides of the equation of right or left, conservative or liberal, but in my experience the majority are in the middle of their respective side of the coin.

One of the problems in the world today in my opinion is that we are so caught up in looking for differences that we cannot see what we have in common. There are certain elements that like to play those up to their advantage.

We the people of the United States and the rest of the world have to realize that it cannot be "us against them" or we will never have a intelligent dialogue to get to a point where we can appreciate our differences but not get so hung up on them that we can never get anything done.

Kevin

[Just Me]

43. I agree. The obsession over differences,...

,...blinds us from all the experiences and hopes and needs we share as human beings.

:hi:

I appreciate the wisdom you both are sharing with us!!! Thank you.

[denese]

70. They force these differences on us

And then they use these "differences" to keep us from uniting.
A united force is difficult to defeat, while a divided one is no trouble at all to keep in hand.
It's so simple, even our fearless leader grasps the concept.

[anarchy1999]

48. A classic tactic of war, "Divide and Conquer". Thank you Kevin and Monica

"...we are so caught up in looking for differences that we cannot see what we have in common..."

No truer words ever spoken.

Peace.

We the people, we own this nation, we are responsible for taking it back.

[killbotfactory]

10. Welcome!

Frankly, I believe Bush and his friends should be tried as war criminals for what they have done. It's a tragedy that our soldiers are facing the horrors of an unnecessary war based on outright lies. I wish you luck in your case.

[Catrina]

11. Thank you Tinoire

for starting another thread ~ I finally had time to read all the posts in the other one.

So much to absorb ~ but the one I keep thinking about is the soldier whose mother wrote to Kevin and Monica and who is in the brig ~ and I wondered what we could do to help, if anything.

The letter you posted from the Iraqi citizen, Monica, they always get to me, because we never hear from the Iraqi people themselves, the media doesn't cover them or how they feel about the invasion of their country.

That is one of the many things I find so frustrating about this war. So much is being hidden, censored which would not have to be the case if this war could in any way be justified.

I wondered, if all 2000 soldiers who want to apply for CO status, were to do it at the same time, would that get the attention of the American people?

I love the stories you are posting, Kevin and Monica, because they are real, uncensored and unfiltered by the news media.

As far as having people at the court, would that help or not, Kevin? :patriot:

[Karenina]

12. HOW do we ensure/insure

the HEALTH CARE NEEDS of American soldiers?

HOW do we get Americans to even care that those needs are met???

[monicab]

13. another friend from Iraq

We are getting to the answers for the questions posted here, and also answers for questions remaining in the first thread ..

The reply to this post is another letter from someone who has become very special to us. She is a woman in Iraq. A professional who, for the last two years, has not had work of any kind because of what is now happening in her country. Prior to that time, she was a partner in a business that was successful, and in which it was not typical for women to work. Prior to the invasion.. this Iraqi woman was successful, and her children were happily seeing their way through their university courses. In the last two years, times have changed.

One day, we will meet this woman, along with the other people of Iraq we are coming to call friends.

[monicab]

15. a second letter from this same friend..

""its my pleasure to know you, and are quite happy with this friendship yet still no one saw each other.

as we have nothing to do at office these last two years, all i have is this internet and circulating around these e-mails that comes from friend or aquaintances.

actually , the benefit of the e-mail in our part of the world is a truely connecting mean as we no more wonder around easily to meet friends. the city is torn into parts and each part is torn into smaller parts. and tinny little part is surrounded with concrete bariers ( huge large concrete walls) as a mean of protection to the houses or sectors of the city and you cant go through unless you have a padge for entering.

no social clubs anymore to gather. so you are totally in an isolation , bound only to your neighborhood. so if you have no friend at your nieghborhood . then it is terribly hard to go and reach for someone in another part without the pain of these checkpoints. then the only thing you do is stick to your own house and forget about visiting someone.

e-mail are trying to take some of the stess that accumilate inside.

you know even american civilians who are here , as companies are stuck at their places and cant see anything of the city or socialize. they dont know anything because of not letting them go around . it uis prohabitted by the american army. so they too are frustarated.

the last two days were hectic here. bombimg is everywhere. and no one could anything about it . and the government seems to be the biggest problem to form. lebanon took one week and the prime minister formed a government , but we keep on chewing this stupid gum on and on and on. i wonder when are the americans feel fed up and start squeezing this stupid prime minister and make him take a dicision. it seems we are not on their monthly agenda?!!!!

maybe the bombing would be less.

it too too too hot today and the temp. was 40 cel. so it is burning yet we have 30 degrees more to go for to hottest days in summer. i turned the A/C this night for the first time to sleep. i wonder what are the soldiers in the desert are doing.!

thanks for your letter and keep on writing even if it was a single word. at least it makes me feel alive""

[monicab]

16. This is the first letter... it didn't post the first time..

your article was bueatiful . i do agree in every word you wrote. as an Iraqi and stuck here in Iraq at saddams era and now. everything is going for decades to the worst because of war.
i had my three children in 1982, 1985 and 1986 two of them are boys . and the only thought that kept on ringing in my back mind was, if they reached the age of military what shall i do. i couldnt have them killed for no reason except to prove someone else point of veiw or a politican that insist on keeping his powerful chair in hand.
they were raised to be doctors or engineers or anything that helps society to be better. which they became now , medical students. now that there is no mandatory military service here in Iraq, i do rest in peace in a way, yet i do feel a new feeling of fear. they might be killed by a bullit of a gun in a street fight that went around the area they were accidentaly passing by that moment.
and now that they are volintary workers at the italian hospital in Iraq that espcialize only in third degree burns they are facing a new experience of war. it is better to be ddead than face these pains of burns poeple suffer of. the hospital doesnt have enough drugs and anistisia to help eaze the pain. isnt it better to pay the money spent on wars for such helpful purposes instead??.
by god your article is very touching but you cant do anything against the human thrive for power and it cost.

[chlamor]

18. 5 Questions

1)Kevin- Would you have precise knowledge of the weaponry being used by the US troops, and from what manner of vehicle(s) the weapons are being fired? e.g. Cluster Bombs, Mark 77 Firebombs, Various Dep. Uranium Weapons etc.

2) Could you talk a little about the day to day struggle of Iraqis to obtain food?

3) Do a large percentage of the US troops see this as a "War for Oil" and see the "Bringing Democracy to Iraq" as a fraudulent edifice for conquest?

4) Are there any sentiments of 'Holy War", "Crusades" amongst the US troops?

5) What are your thoughts on impeachment proceedings for Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, etc. and eventual Tribunal hearings at The Hague?

When the truth is silenced the silence becomes a lie. As you speak-Monica, Kevin- you break the wall of silence.

[monicab]

20. hi

HI Chlamor..

Just wanted you to know that Kevin read your questions... he will answer them. We appreciate your support, and your interest - thank you so much for your interest. We'll have those answers - we're trying to get through many. It's amazing!!!

[chlamor]

22. An Additional Question

Have you any thoughts/knowledge of the accuracy of the body counts/wounded? Though I don't like to be consumed w/numbers I do feel a bit suspicious of Pentagon reports-to say the least- and if Viet Nam is any indicator the Casualty list may be kept down to quell possible unrest and dissent.

Peace to You


from Arch Bishop Desmond TuTu...
"When the missionaries first came to Africa they had the bible and we had the land. They said...Let us pray. We closed our eyes...When we opened our eyes, we had the bible and they had the land."



"There comes a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part, you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon all the apparatus, and you've got to make it stop. And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, the people who own it, that unless you're free, the machine will be prevented from working at all."

-Mario Savio

[monicab]

37. questions

1)Kevin- Would you have precise knowledge of the weaponry being used by the US troops, and from what manner of vehicle(s) the weapons are being fired? e.g. Cluster Bombs, Mark 77 Firebombs, Various Dep. Uranium Weapons etc.

ANSWER: I cannot discuss this subject with anyone as I have been ordered not to by the military. But I would suggest the film named the Pentagon Wars and it will give some you insight on how the pentagon procures weapons systems and in this movie it talks about the Bradley Fighting Vehicle, it is an eye opener.



2) Could you talk a little about the day to day struggle of Iraqis to obtain food?

ANSWER: When I was in country in 2003 I saw people obtaining their drinking water from mud puddles alongside the road and we were always giving away MREs', that is meals ready to eat and those are rations that the military gives soldiers in the field or the war zone. I can explain how they taste: we tried to give one of them to a starving dog that was around us and he would not even eat them. I can say that rice is a big staple for them and I saw a lot of that used. After we got to Khanaqin I started seeing trucks that came from Iran with food supplies and different things that were needed.


3) Do a large percentage of the US troops see this as a "War for Oil" and see the "Bringing Democracy to Iraq" as a fraudulent edifice for conquest?
I think that more and more all of us awakening to the fact that this is not what it seemed originally, civilians and soldiers alike.

4) Are there any sentiments of 'Holy War", "Crusades" amongst the US troops?
I do not think that the majority of the troops are religiously fanatic although there may be some that harbor that mentality.

5) What are your thoughts on impeachment proceedings for Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, etc. and eventual Tribunal hearings at The Hague?

I think if the evidence shows beyond a shadow of a doubt there is guilt, there should be an accounting of illegal actions and everyone responsible should be tried as they deserve. No more No less. I must stress that it has to be unquestionable before anything is rushed into. Or else you have the type of situation that you are seeing now.

[AmBlue]

27. These letters break my heart...

(I know this is separate from your husband's immediate problem, but...)

I had a lightbulb moment as I was reading them. If you are corresponding with Iraqi friends and it is a comfort to them, is it possible that we could begin an American/Iraqi penpal-via-e-mail writing campaign?? Regular Americans e-mailing regular Iraqis so they know that the heart and soul of this nation cares for them, prays for them, and is not in favor of our military being there and doing them further harm. It would also help to spread the truth of what is happening over there and awaken "America the Oblivious."

Is this possible? Surely your Iraqi friends might know others who would enjoy corresponding... Anxious to hear your thoughts.

[monicab]

28. people helping people... gotta love it!!

We will send some emails to some of our friends and see what they say.

It sounds like a perfect idea.. if they feel that there will be no repercussions for them.. then I would imagine they would welcome the opportunity to feel part of the world again.

It sometimes takes a few days to hear from them because the electricity is erratic, and they sometimes share computers. Let's give it a try and see what develops.

THANKS FOR CARING!!!

They need to know just how much "regular" Americans DO care.. and DO understand.

[AmBlue]

29. That would be just awesome...

Please do let me know what response you get. If there is interest we can post a separate topic for this. I'd be willing to bet there would be lots here that would be interested. As for me, it would be a great honor....

[Zhade]

98. Great idea!

NT!

[ulysses]

14. welcome!

All best to you two. :thumbsup:

[Catrina]

17. This is unbelievable ~

it is better to be ddead than face these pains of burns poeple suffer of. the hospital doesnt have enough drugs and anistisia to help eaze the pain. isnt it better to pay the money spent on wars for such helpful purposes instead??.

Isn't that against the Geneva Convention also? To not have enough hospitals and medicine to take care of the wounded? They have received billions of dollars for this war, and Halliburton just got a bonus of millions of dollars, but the wounded in Iraq don't have enough medicine?

It really is an outrage and it makes you feel so helpless. I thought the Red Cross looked out for these kinds of situations ~ or are they even in Iraq anymore? And what is the UN doing about it, I wonder? I mean it sounds like the information is easy enough to get, if someone just visits the hospitals.

I hope you do meet that woman some day, Monica ~ she sounds so despairing, and lonely for her friends ~ and it certainly doesn't paint the picture of Iraq that I heard Bush talk about last week.

[monicab]

19. we are not helpless..

HI Trina..

We are not helpless.. even tho it feels so.

We just have to keep doing what we are doing. The Truth DOES win.. it's not easy, and many are hurt - but we just keep going, because we have to be sure that nothing like this ever happens again.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

21. Hi again!

Monica- How old should a child be when they claim CO status? Should it be around age 16, or could the government state that it was a coerced belief by the parent?

Glad you guys are hanging 'round these parts.

[monicab]

24. Selective Service - Delayed Entry and CO status

Because a child can be recruited for the delayed entry program before they turn 18, I don't think 16 is too early to declare oneself a CO. In order to fulfill a contract for the delayed entry program to be enlisted, a child requires the signature of a parent until that child is 18.

Unless that child is already in the military, or is being drafted.. there is no one to turn a completed CO admission in to. BUT.. what we recommend is that any child who is of the age to be recruited, or any 18 year old who is registering for Selective Service, prepare a statement similar to the questionaire completed by a CO applicant already in the service. They should include a statement attesting to their beliefs, what helped them to formulate those beliefs and how those beliefs affect their current lifestyle. It would not hurt to include letters from a pastor, chaplain or someone who addresses spiritual needs. There could be statements from others who know this child, and can attest to the sincerity of his/her beliefs.

These statements should be copied, and we would recommend that they be placed with three different sources, in sealed envelopes, with the date written across the seal. That way, when/if the time comes that they must openly address their beliefs for military purposes, they will have these statements showing that they have had these beliefs for that amount of time. It is much easier to gain CO status if you can prove that it was not something that developed overnight due to the threat of draft, enlistment, etc.

If you would like copies of some of the questions regarding beliefs that are addressed on the application for someone in military service, we would be happy to provide them. If you would like more assistance, we can help.. and we can provide you with some knowledgeable resources as well.

[monicab]

31. Something else.... IMPORTANT...

I woke up and thought of this.. and wanted to make sure to post it here. We have already posted it in the first thread, but it is important, and bears repeating.

If your child is still in High School and you have talked with them and they have decided that they do not want to be approached by recruiters, it is important that you write a letter to the school addressing that, and make sure that the school officials place a copy of your letter in your child's student file. Once there is a record of your joint decision to not allow your child to be approached by recruiters on the school's campus, the recruiters will have to leave your child alone. If there is no letter stipulating this, in your child's school records, then the school will have no authority to stop recruiters from approaching your child.

If your child has already made an initial commitment to the delayed entry program, but conversations about war and new information cause them to change their beliefs, they simply need to submit a letter written by you, and signed by you and your child (unless your child is over the age of 18) to the recruiting office, and there should be no further commitment. The recruiters may continue to try to "sell" your child on enlistment, but if he has made his decision and it is firm, be strong and do not let the recruiters bully tactics sway you.

For the delayed entry program, there are two points at which a potential recruit takes an "oath" of service to the military. It is NOT until the second oath is taken, and all paperwork is complete, that the person is actually committed.

[AmBlue]

45. Here is a good link, Monica

to a form letter for "Opting Out" of the current policy to provide your child's info to military recruiters.

http://www.leavemychildalone.org/index.cfm?event=signPetition&pid=1

You can also sign the petition there to show Congress there is broad support for the Student Privacy Protection Act (H.R. 551). It makes a simple change to No Child Left Behind ensuring schools release private information to military recruiters only if families request it, rather than the other way around.

[monicab]

46. Thank you

:-)

[democrank]

25. A sincere warm welcome.

Both of you have my respect for your moral courage and your leadership in bringing the truth to light. Thank you for your efforts.

I`m troubled by the degree to which so many Americans seem willing to accept whatever this administration says about Iraq and Afghanistan.
It`s as though many of them believe they`re just watching a Hollywood war movie, complete with nifty graphics and surround sound. Like the blood is fake and everyone in the war scene gets to stand up and go home to their families at the end of the day.

There`s something unreal...American-style...about this war. A majority apparently thinks they need just two things: a yellow, magnetic ribbon for their vehicle and a war-time tax cut. The rest comes under the heading of SPREADIN` FREEDOM. No need to hold anyone accountable, no need to count civilian casualties, no need to worry about what the rest of the world thinks. It`s really sickening and deeply troubling.

As far as I`m concerned, this is the Neocon`s religious Crusade with the extra-added benefit of oilfields and pipe lines. Some new world dominance we can enjoy while The Chosen sit around waiting for The Rapture. Trouble is, these folks drag a lot of innocents into this mess, like a fatherless child from Cabrini Green whose recruiter tells him he can travel the world and learn to play the drums if he just signs on the dotted line or a gullible kid who believed Cheney when he connected Saddam with September 11th.

I`ve done everything in my power to help stop this madness. I wish from the bottom of my heart that the citizens of this country would watch some footage of the protesters during the Vietnam War so they`d learn what it will take to bring Bush to his knees and REALLY support our troops.

[Catrina]

30. Democrank, I know what you mean

about the war not seeming real to many Americans ~ but how could it, when there is no real coverage of ordinary Iraqis and how it has affected them. Journalists are being chased out of the country, so who is going to tell the Iraqi's side of the story? If that were to be told, I bet support for this war would be practically zero.

I also like the idea of ordinary Americans writing to ordinary Iraqis.

I was thinking about that earlier. What a great way to get the real story of what's happening.

We could publish their letters in local papers, since the media won't do it, and let people hear the truth about this war. I think that would do more to influence people than anything else I can think of, other than the media finally doing their job.

Monica, if your Iraqi friend wants to receive mail, or if she has other friends who want to correspond with others, how great that would be!!

Hi to Eridani, we've met on another board, if you happen to come back to this thread!! Pm me if you like! :-)

[oxbow]

32. I wish EVERY American could hear you guys!

I've never heard the cause of peace defended so simply (nor strongly) as when reading your posts. Would you be interested in going onto one of the primetime news shows to get your message out there? I know that a lot of us here are particularly fond of Keith Olbermann of MSNBC. I think many DU'ers would join me in writing Keith and asking him to have you guys on. He is the most honest and patriotic newsman we have out there today, and I think he might very well be up for something like that.

[monicab]

36. if it would be a benefit...

if it would work, we would do it. if it were real, honest.. and if we could reach people, we would do it.

but it would have to be about peace... it couldn't be about us.

THANKS.. .we'll give it some thought.. and perhaps some of you will as well.

[monicab]

33. HOW DO WE CARE???

I don't know if we can get people to really care about the soldiers' needs, or the needs of their families, until we can get them to wake up to the realization that LIFE matters. People move so quickly in their lives these days, everything is throw away - "if it breaks, get a new one" - they do it with cars, houses, furniture - and that transcribes to relationships and families. If people care so little about what is their own, then what belongs to someone else just isn't going to matter.

The way this war has been handled attests to that. Kevin and I are against WAR.. all war.. every aspect of war is dehumanizing.. but this war gave us the firsthand knowledge which makes us committed to our beliefs. We always knew that it didn't make sense, but having lived through it - we know that we can put every bit of passion we have into fighting against it because of what we have seen and experienced.

I don't wish for people to lose their loved ones, but I wish that they could somehow experience the pain of what it would be like to lose someone they cared about, to realize that they might never see them again. If more people would stop and feel pain for a minute, if they would actually interact with someone they care about, and spend a little time thinking about what it would be like if they were to lose them, I think we could get more people to care about others as well.

When you look down into the eyes of your child, someone who means the world to you for opening your eyes to the freshness of that world again, and you see all that he is, and has been, somewhere in the emptiness of a blank stare - the result of a freak accident when you least expected it, your world stands before you with a vivid reality you never thought possible. You KNOW the value of life and you make a promise and pray that you can help people to understand - we need to fight for LIFE with more tenacity than we have ever used to defend our reasons to sacrifice life and assign a noble cause to a premature death in the name of freedom.

As long as we defend our right to give our lives in the name of freedom, we will never be free. There is nothing right about killing, there is nothing noble in that kind of death. When someone says their child died in the cause of freedom or was wounded, and that it was worthy, I want to shake them, open their hands and place them on the bars that are keeping these people hostage from the truth. DEATH IS THE END. DEATH IS FINAL. DEATH MEANS NEVER LOOKING INTO THE EYES OF THE PERSON THAT MEANT SO MUCH TO YOU, EVER AGAIN. DEATH MEANS NOTHING. DEATH MEANS EMPTINESS BEYOND MENTION. Death means going through life with a memory, a picture, a metal bracelet with a name, a song, a poem.. but never the person, ever again.

To defend life in the name of freedom, we must live life, and show others how to live it as well. To defend life in the name of making the world more secure, we must give life, not by giving our own, or allowing someone we love to give theirs - but to give life to others in a way which teaches them understanding and acceptance of all they have. We must give life to those who already have it, but have yet to see its true value.

When Kevin and I look at the names of all the people who have died in all the wars, on all sides, soldier and civilian, and we realize how many more we never will know existed, when we look at those who lost everything BUT their life to these same wars and realize how great their pain must be, we are sad for a moment, but anger soon takes over. What purpose has any of this served? Have any of these wars stopped the killing? Have any of these wars taught us to come to our senses and see the light we are meant to see? How can anyone see the destruction of our most valuable gift as humane?

When someone tells us they wear a bracelet to honor the death of a beloved friend who gave their life, or was wounded in the fight to spread freedom, and whose life was worth it because an enemy of our security was killed in the process, we can only shake our heads. Two lives lost, and we are no closer to freedom, but we can feel the prison walls of fear closing in a little tighter.

People look to war to achieve positive results. How can anyone believe this will happen? War is nothing but destruction - devastation - desolation. War tears at the souls of all involved. War will never bring peace. War will only help to foster the next generation of warriors. To honor life, we have to choose to live not in fear, but in PEACE - in peace in our own lives. If each person caused themselves to stop, to wait, and to listen to the choices that would make their own life peaceful - war would stop. Not enough people listen. Not enough people care about themselves so how are they going to care about others?

[monicab]

35. the next person reached...

""I wanted to express my pride that someone in the military, other than
me, disagrees with the war and the politics surrounding the entire
situation over in the middle-east. Like you, Kevin, I am in the
military and wanted to apply for conscientious objector status but was
told by many people that it wouldn't fly and that it is hard to prove
that I actually feel that way. I wanted, several times, to throw up my
hands and just, "you know what, I'm not fighting your political war and
do not want to have ANY part of it". Thank you for your inspiration
and if you have any advice or have received any advice you want to send
my way, I'd appreciate it.""

This is from someone in the Air Force. He is getting his CO process started. Many of these people do not want to have their names posted yet, but we are forwarded them on to Cynthia McKinney, and when they are ready, we will ask for you to help them with the same kind of support that you are giving us. They're getting started on their own, as it needs to be, but we KNOW you'll be there for them when they need you the most.

[AP]

41. How much of the appalling conditions soldiers confront in Iraq do you

attribute to the kind of war this is?

I read some of the posts you've written and have thought, if this were actually a war for democracy, we wouldn't be shooting at children. And because this is a war for profits of the companies which prepare meals for the military and for all the franchisors opening branches in Iraq and (let's not forget) oil companies, soldiers are enduring the things you describe.

I feel like this is the essential over-arching theme of all your posts. Do you agree?

I think any young person in America should want to be a part of an armed service (and an entire social system beyond just the military) that was actually protecting and promoting democracy. But an army that doesn't do that is inevitably going to be an atrocious place to spend your life, and it's more than a little ironic that it's exactly the kind of person who is getting exploited in the army whom the whole imperialist project is intending to exploit in places like Iraq, or Vietnam, or the Philippines (or wherever we've historically done these same kinds of actions). It's like the Pinkertons recruiting desperate, poor immigrants to crack the heads of desperate poor immigrant workers to protect a system which holds down the economic and political power of both of them to preserve and perpetuate the screwed-up system that created the need for Pinkertons in the first place.

[monicab]

42. no one, young or old, should have to be part of an "armed service"

It was midnight on a Saturday in March, 2003. The countdown was over.. time ran out. I remember vividly the time of watching Kevin put on body armor, a kevlar helmet, 100+ pounds of equipment and supplies, sneaking last minute little notes into all the pockets of his uniform and armor for him to find in his down times coming up. Watching as he packed the charcoal chemical suit, the antidotes for chemical attacks, the gas mask, having nothing more to say... there really aren't any words. The barracks room was dimly lit, and eerily quiet. Then, the door closed on that as well. At 1 am, in the dark, we drove to the arms room area where he would draw his weapon. I went between sleep, and feeling as if the whole thing were a dream when he returned from one more briefing to spend a little more time with me in the truck. Waiting... it was endless.. knowing there was not much time left... knowing that he was as thoughtful about the whole situation as I was.. knowing that we had to find the strength because it was what we committed to.. knowing that there were many who would not respect what we were doing, but for some reason we felt there was a reason he had to go. And then - 3 am. I had to let him go. I watched in the cold and dark, from the sidelines while he and other soldiers got into formation and then marched past us, so quietly, into the gym. We couldn't hear a sound except the shuffled cadence of their boots. Something impacted me that I didn't know would. As I stood in the doorway watching, Kevin came through and another soldier handed him a plastic chock to put behind the pin of his M-16 to protect it from firing on the airplane. Kevin.. with an M-16, and armor - ever man in front and behind, the same. It was added protection for them - for me it was the realization that they were going to WAR.

In the gym, the national anthem played, and America the Beautiful. A few crying families and wives were there, but even with the noise, it was soooo quiet. Once in the gym, the military powers that be gave us all 5 more minutes to say goodbye, and then sent us out. The soldiers walked us to the door, we watched over each other's heads as they reformed and took the order to begin the march to the buses. A quick look back from Kevin as he went out the door, and I was struck how much this great big man could look like a little boy - and he left. I sat right next to their bus, so he knew I was there, and watched them all sitting, waiting. They seemed as much at a loss as their families were - empty - and no way to express it. Heads were lowered, somber looks with nothing and no one except themselves, the fears they couldn't express, and loneliness already setting in. 4 am - darkness and no sign of a sunrise. The buses left. For no idea how long. It took almost 2 months before we could hear from them, 4 weeks for every package we sent to reach him.. one a week.. and two months for every letter that he sent home.

Strange but interesting thing about soldiers - we have found in our conversations with so many of all ages from all wars. Proud, moral soldiers will do everything they can to find a way to not have to use the weapons they are armed with. Trained killers.. yet reluctant killers.. and we do not believe you would hear any of the soldiers with any respect for themselves, or their integrity, speaking of destroying the world with so little respect as we hear from many people who have never served in war. Those soldiers who retain their values, and want to do the right thing, want to be defenders - protectors. They do not want to be part of the problem. But when those in charge take advantage of a soldier's commitment to "duty" and "country" and they play on that - a soldier has to make a decision to either live by a contract that his government says he cannot break even knowing that his government has already broken their promises, OR he must find the strength to stand seemingly alone and defend his conscience in spite of the consequences. Those consequences are not fair, the contract is not fair - and the decision is not easy for it must be made alone.

Every time another soldier leaves now, the feelings return and they hurt, because we know what they and their families face. We know that the families of the people in the countries they travel to will face as well. We are no different, just using a different name to call our country home. War should be obsolete, it must be, if we are to regain our humanity. We should not have to watch our youth become armed with weapons that destroy. We should not have to watch our soldiers load their weapons and prepare to kill others to avoid being killed themselves. That's what war is... throwing our youth into the face of what we fear... to lessen the risk of it coming to get us. Isn't that what we are being told? We are sacrificing our youth.. our country's future, by training them and sending them to be killed in the hopes that their accused, alleged "killers" don't come here. But we have to ask - would those "killers" actually have come, if we were a little less afraid?

Sadly, there are too many who do not yet understand. Arming our youth and putting them on the front lines to kill others will never bring about peace, it will only perpetuate war. For those of us who have felt the horrors and lived through them, we look at the sunshine a little longer, and dare to walk in the rain. We see our children as gifts, not nuisances, and stand strong to raise them with high standards, respect for their lives and the lives of others. We wake up in the morning and do our best to defend the right things, and brush off the little things that don't really matter. We hope that we can accept each other for the gifts that we all are. We don't take for granted that by being here, speaking out to stop war and find a better way, we are fighting for FREEDOM, and the right to LIVE. We remember that we are not fighting for the right to destroy ourselves, or others for the sake of power and control. We don't forget the honor of being able to defend Life, over the taking of Life to solve our problems, and we remember that the right to do this, comes from having been given life.. not because we are heroes, but because we live.

[Karenina]

44. Thank you.

:kick:

[Roland99]

47. It's a shame bright and aware minds like yours are lost upon

this administration and its chickenhawk warmongers.

[noiretextatique]

49. sending our young to kill what we fear

it's tragic that we hear so little calls for peace from our "official" places, the media, the government. everyone talks about the "necessity" of killing, yet the powerful shield their own young from ever facing the possibility they demand from the children of the the poor, the average, and the unlucky.
a big welcome to you both :hug: and best wishes on the case.

[anarchy1999]

55. This is an incredibly beautiful, heartfelt and heart wrenching essay,

Monica. May I have your permission to share it with a few other involved activists? Wow. I'm wordless. Truly powerful. Thank you for sharing with us all.

[monicab]

56. Thank you...

Of course you may share this.. and anything that Kevin and I write. I would like to send you a copy that does not have the typo in it, however.. I caught it after it was too late to edit it.

We just want to find a way to reach as many people as possible.. and we see the writing as a gift we have been given to use to make that possible.

THANK YOU for wanting to help. Monica

[monicab]

67. Daring to Walk in the Rain.. (corrected version)

Hi Anarchy(s) ..

Thank you again for your support and for your thoughts. This has the typo corrected from the first post of the essay. Please feel free to use it wherever you see a need, as with any of our writing.

In Peace,

Monica



It was midnight on a Saturday in March, 2003. The countdown was over.. time ran out. I remember vividly the time of watching Kevin put on body armor, a kevlar helmet, 100+ pounds of equipment and supplies, sneaking last minute little notes into all the pockets of his uniform and armor for him to find in his down times coming up. Watching as he packed the charcoal chemical suit, the antidotes for chemical attacks, the gas mask, having nothing more to say... there really aren't any words. The barracks room was dimly lit, and eerily quiet. Then, the door closed on that as well. At 1 am, in the dark, we drove to the arms room area where he would draw his weapon. I went between sleep, and feeling as if the whole thing were a dream when he returned from one more briefing to spend a little more time with me in the truck. Waiting... it was endless.. knowing there was not much time left... knowing that he was as thoughtful about the whole situation as I was.. knowing that we had to find the strength because it was what we committed to.. knowing that there were many who would not respect what we were doing, but for some reason we felt there was a reason he had to go. And then - 3 am. I had to let him go. I watched in the cold and dark, from the sidelines while he and other soldiers got into formation and then marched past us, so quietly, into the gym. We couldn't hear a sound except the shuffled cadence of their boots. Something impacted me that I didn't know would. As I stood in the doorway watching, Kevin came through and another soldier handed him a plastic chock to put behind the pin of his M-16 to protect it from firing on the airplane. Kevin.. with an M-16, and armor - every man in front and behind, the same. It was added protection for them - for me it was the realization that they were going to WAR.

In the gym, the national anthem played, and America the Beautiful. A few crying families and wives were there, but even with the noise, it was soooo quiet. Once in the gym, the military powers that be gave us all 5 more minutes to say goodbye, and then sent us out. The soldiers walked us to the door, we watched over each other's heads as they reformed and took the order to begin the march to the buses. A quick look back from Kevin as he went out the door, and I was struck how much this great big man could look like a little boy - and he left. I sat right next to their bus, so he knew I was there, and watched them all sitting, waiting. They seemed as much at a loss as their families were - empty - and no way to express it. Heads were lowered, somber looks with nothing and no one except themselves, the fears they couldn't express, and loneliness already setting in. 4 am - darkness and no sign of a sunrise. The buses left. For no idea how long. It took almost 2 months before we could hear from them, 4 weeks for every package we sent to reach him.. one a week.. and two months for every letter that he sent home.

Strange but interesting thing about soldiers - we have found in our conversations with so many of all ages from all wars. Proud, moral soldiers will do everything they can to find a way to not have to use the weapons they are armed with. Trained killers.. yet reluctant killers.. and we do not believe you would hear any of the soldiers with any respect for themselves, or their integrity, speaking of destroying the world with so little respect as we hear from many people who have never served in war. Those soldiers who retain their values, and want to do the right thing, want to be defenders - protectors. They do not want to be part of the problem. But when those in charge take advantage of a soldier's commitment to "duty" and "country" and they play on that - a soldier has to make a decision to either live by a contract that his government says he cannot break even knowing that his government has already broken their promises, OR he must find the strength to stand seemingly alone and defend his conscience in spite of the consequences. Those consequences are not fair, the contract is not fair - and the decision is not easy for it must be made alone.

Every time another soldier leaves now, the feelings return and they hurt, because we know what they and their families face. We know that the families of the people in the countries they travel to will face it as well. We are all no different, just using a different name to call our country home. War should be obsolete, it must be, if we are to regain our humanity. We should not have to watch our youth become armed with weapons that destroy. We should not have to watch our soldiers load their weapons and prepare to kill others to avoid being killed themselves. That's what war is... throwing our youth into the face of what we fear... to lessen the risk of it coming to get us. Isn't that what we are being told? We are sacrificing our youth.. our country's future, by training them and sending them to be killed in the hopes that their accused, alleged "killers" don't come here. But we have to ask - would those "killers" actually have come, if we were a little less afraid?

Sadly, there are too many who do not yet understand. Arming our youth and putting them on the front lines to kill others will never bring about peace, it will only perpetuate war. For those of us who have felt the horrors and lived through them, we look at the sunshine a little longer, and dare to walk in the rain. We see our children as gifts, not nuisances, and stand strong to raise them with high standards, respect for their lives and the lives of others. We wake up in the morning and do our best to defend the right things, and brush off the little things that don't really matter. We hope that we can accept each other for the gifts that we all are. We don't take for granted that by being here, speaking out to stop war and find a better way, we are fighting for FREEDOM, and the right to LIVE. We remember that we are not fighting for the right to destroy ourselves, or others, for the sake of power and control. We don't forget the honor of being able to defend Life over the taking of Life to solve our problems, and we remember that the right to do this, comes from having been given life.. not because we are heroes, but because we LIVE.

[Zhade]

99. Damn. So true.

NT!

[monicab]

50. what kind of war is it?

That is an interesting question you ask; ""How much of the appalling conditions soldiers confront in Iraq do you attribute to the kind of war this is?"

How is this war different than other wars? If you strip all the politics and everything else from any war all you have is a large group of people trying their best to kill another large group of people. Period, nothing more or nothing less.

My father was in the army during WW2 and he told me that he had to walk across frozen bodies for miles before he could step off onto the ground. There were many young men that died in that war from all sides that did not have to if the people in charge at the time would have used some of the knowledge and common sense they possessed.

My point is; go look at the aftermath of all the wars that have been fought and all you see is pictures of dead men on some forgotten battlefield and the thing they died for is now considered history and yet we go on with war, war for democracy, what a joke.

War does not work to bring democracy and freedom, all war does is bring death. It boils down to killing as many of the people that disagree with until you can force the remainder to submit to your will. And it is usually the government that starts wars anyway. Prior to this war did you really feel threatened by anyone from Iraq? From Saudi Arabia, (which, btw, is where most of the hi-jackers came from anyway) or from anywhere in the middle east.

Were you sitting around your house, telling yourself that we should start a war in Iraq to bring democracy to them? Correct me if I am wrong, but I really do not think anyone was in the world, including yourself.

Kevin

[Tinoire]

51. Devastating in its purity of thought & emotion. What can we do to help?

"had to walk across frozen bodies for miles before he could step off onto the ground"

There is simply no excuse.

You don't know what an experience it is to read what you and Monica are writing.

I read this post right after Monica's post 42 and they leave me with a very heavy sadness.

I hope neither one of you ever stops writing because you have a great gift to make people aware of the horrors in a very sensitive, humane manner. Truly, I am in awe.

Sometimes I don't even know how I could respond to your posts other than to read them and go for a long walk.

What is the most immediate help you need? I want to help more people say NO so they can continue their lives without memories of horrors no young person should ever have seen.

What can I, can we, do?

[monicab]

62. how to help...

this thread helps. we have sent it to many of the people who have veterans websites, and anti-war organizations. We hope that while many will not post, at least they will read the questions, the answers and the dialog.

and... when someone comes to you with questions.. listen for a while, and hear why they're asking what they are. especially soldiers and their family members.

many are confused and misled by false information and leaders who do not lead. they say things, and do things that we may not agree with, but if we don't stop and listen to hear why they say and do, we might not help but hurt unknowingly. so many people want to know, but don't know how to ask. so many people think they know, but just need someone to lead them to see what they DON'T know. and many more won't listen, if they are TOLD what to think rather than given the information to LEARN what to think.

it's not about pacifism. it's about living peacefully within the community, allowing others who may not think like you to have their own beliefs because they allow you to have yours. it's not wrong to pursue this aggressively, but it is wrong to pursue this with violent means.

armies will not create this world, and standing an army up because we are afraid of what others might send our way will not create this world. standing up for NOT fighting is what will show those who think differently than we do that there is no point in fighting. if someone threatens with violence, and none is directed at them, one may be hurt... but 15 may be saved. if they see that their violence does not cause a violent reaction, they may try again. one may be hurt... but 15 more may be saved. in war... 15 deaths cause 15 more and so on and so on.. and then it doesn't stop because no one wants to be the one to walk away.

it takes great strength to walk away. and to walk away first BEFORE the violence starts is the greatest show of strength of all. it is not pacifism, it is CONFIDENCE. CONFIDENCE is TRUST is FAITH. violence solves no problems, it only causes more.

Monica

[EFerrari]

52. Tell it. And how is that so many of us knew the truth of this war

and the corporate media did not report it. And later issued lame-@ssed excuses for their unconscionable failures.

I guess I don't need ratings to march in the street or put signs up or light candles or write letters or call my reps until the receptionist knows me by name.

That's a good thing :)

Welcome to DU.

[AP]

57. WW2 was a war against fascist imperialism.

In Greg Pallast's Best Democracy Money Can Buy he has a short passage where he describes his father giving his WW2 medals to his young son to lose during the Vietnam War. He said that his father had been proud to fight in Asia against an imperialist fascist Japan that had killed many Chinese in attempt to subjugate them and force them to exert their labor to make a couple Japanese families extremely wealthy. In Vietnam, Pallast's father saw that the US was behaving like Imperialist Japan.

I have no illusions about why the US is in Iraq, and, although Hussein was a fascist himself, this was not a war for democracy against fascist imperialism. This war was the other side of the same coin Hussein's on, with huge dose of imperialism heaped on top.

I have a strong feeeling that wars like the Phillipines and Spanish American War and Vietnam, and Iraq are particularly miserable for the participants because of the type of war they are. For one thing, you don't have extremely motivated locals using guerrila tactics when you're not the fascist imperialist. Furthermore, the profit motive suffuses the entire operation, from tactics (like torture) right down to what you're assigned guard and the equipment you get and how you are fed in a way that the incongruence of the rhetoric and the reality becomes obvious to the participants.

In WW2, when soldiers marched over miles of dead enemies to find a concentration camp at the end, and when they learned that those concentration camps existed to extract the wealth and labor of a huge group of people -- a racial other, easily targeted by manipulative fascist propganda-- in order to make a few people wealthy, I think a lot of soldiers must have felt like they had done the right thing.

Now the Bush WH uses a lot of the same rhetoric that Wilson and FDR used in the furtherance of anti-Imperialism, but that doesn't mean that Iraq had a damn thing to do with Democracy. I appreciate those who are anti-war as a matter of principle. But I don't think that people who are anti-imperialism and anti-fascist need to back down from looking at Iraq through that lens just because Bush apes the language and arguments of Wilson and FDR. And I aslo think critics of Iraq would be getting closer to the truth of what's going on in a way that would resonate with more Americans on the left and right of the political spectrum if the crticisms were not simply all war is bad but, war is bad, but it's especially bad to be a fascist imperialist. (And it also has the bonus of explaining a lot of what is going on in domestic politics as well -- and I'm talking about the merger of the government with the interests of huge corporations.)

[monicab]

58. "WW2 was a war against fascist imperialism." and my response

"I think any young person in America should want to be a part of an armed service (and an entire social system beyond just the military) that was actually protecting and promoting democracy."

AP,
I copied this from your original post and it made me think. It brought to mind the question of, "Why can't we guide our young to use the gifts they have been endowed with to protect and promote democracy without resorting to the ultimate violence of war?"

Do we not say that to resort to violence in our daily lives is the sign of small minds? Minds that cannot reach a viable solution to problems without resorting to the most base of human emotions.

What is there about violence on the grand scale that is war, that all of a sudden makes it acceptable behavior? Are we to believe that which we teach our children is wrong? Do you take your children down to the shooting range and have them sharpen their marksmanship skills on human shaped targets so that they will be ready for war as a way to solve the problems that face mankind.?

Or do you try to instill in them the sense of communications with others so that they may learn to handle problems in a more civilized manner?

I have to make a statement about your second post as well,

"In WW2, when soldiers marched over miles of dead enemies to find a concentration camp at the end, and when they learned that those concentration camps existed to extract the wealth and labor of a huge group of people -- a racial other, easily targeted by manipulative fascist propaganda-- in order to make a few people wealthy, I think a lot of soldiers must have felt like they had done the right thing."

and the question that it brings to mind for me is this, " Why didn't this experience that the world went through in those times teach us anything?"

My father did not tell me what he had so that it would glorify war to me, instead I know now that he was trying to get me to use my ability to reason and arrive at better solutions than war. I sincerely believe that all veterans want the experience to be seen, not as a glorification, but as a renouncement of all the insanity that war is.

Kevin

[AP]

59. During WWI, it was the American fascists who didn't want to fight the war

at first because they thought that American participation would bring it to an end too quickly, which would cut into their war profits, and they also saw the possiblity of amassing even more wealth from a maximally devestated Europe.

After the war, American fascists didn't want to see a League of Nation because they thought it would end war.

During WW2, American fascists didn't want to fight Germany because they probably wanted to see Hitler win. (One of the convenient consequence of throwing the Jews in concentration camps at the beginning of WW2 was that many of the labor leaders were Jewish, and boy did the big corporations love that -- killed two birds with one stone.)

After WW2, they didn't want a UN because they thought it would end war.

I can't wait for the day when the UN can replace war with rule of law (which seems far off when some of its most powerful members have their own imperialist agendas). Until then, I think that it is obvious that you can hate war, but understand why it's good to have an army, and, occassionally, to use it.

I think pacifism is wonderfull, but when I'm ranking attrocities, I put the rise of fascism just about at the top of the list, and I would prefer an America that was a counterbalance to the rise of imperial fascism -- one that didn't sit back and watch the rise of it elsewhere, because that is a threat that can cause incredibly misery and injustice, and because with great power, does come great responsibility to address misery and injustice.

As I said above, I really don't think Iraq raises the issue of pacisfism vs aggression so much as it raises the question, "who are the imperial fascists?"

I also think the profit motive probably explains a lot of the things you've described in these two threads and you're missing an opportunity to make your argument in a way that resonates much more powerfully than just arguing that pacifism is the ultimate ideal. Afterall, why did you join the army in the first place? Wasn't it because you thought, even if the army never fought a single battle, it sent the message that with American power came a responsiblity to dissuade the rest of the world from engaging in wars that cause great suffering, and because, so long as we were lead by presidents with the vision of Wilson and FDR, America wouldn't sit back and watch black clouds of evil descend on innocent people just trying to make it through life enjoying the profit of their labor.

[monicab]

61. My reasons for being in the military

"I also think the profit motive probably explains a lot of the things you've described in these two threads and you're missing an opportunity to make your argument in a way that resonates much more powerfully than just arguing that pacifism is the ultimate ideal."


"Afterall, why did you join the army in the first place? Wasn't it because you thought, even if the army never fought a single battle, it sent the message that with American power came a responsiblity to dissuade the rest of the world from engaging in wars that cause great suffering, and because, so long as we were lead by presidents with the vision of Wilson and FDR, America wouldn't sit back and watch black clouds of evil descend on innocent people just trying to make it through life enjoying the profit of their labor."

No I did not join the army thinking that it was America's place to police the rest of the world, which is basically what you are saying when you talk about, and I quote,

"Wasn't it because you thought, even if the army never fought a single battle, it sent the message that with American power came a responsiblity to dissuade the rest of the world from engaging in wars that cause great suffering."

It is most definitely not our place to force our views on the rest of the world, isn't that what all fascists do? Call me ignorant or outdated in my thinking but I felt the reason to be in the military was to defend America, period, nothing more, and the laws that made this country a good place to live.

I, in no way wanted to threaten the rest of the world and force on them my way of thinking, as a military force should not be designed for that purpose.

Kevin

[AP]

64. If America did not participate in WWI and WWII the globe would be run

by fascists. Perhaps there'd be no war bringing it to America, but there would have been a great deal of misery, and perhaps death in resisting it after it was imposed.

Thousands of people died in the Philipines after America's imperialist war ended because people generally don't like to work hard (or not work at all) in order to make wealthy people thousands of miles away even wealthier.

Pacifism and isolationism have a huge cost. Make no mistake: I do not think Iraq was a war of liberation or a war to replace facism with democracy. But I think it's pretty clear what would have happened had the US not participated in WWI and WW2.

If America's views that it's enforcing is that genocidal, imperialist fascism is bad, I can't tell you how down I am with that, because, in WW2, it was not going to stop at America's borders if we listened to Prescott Bush's plea for isolationism. With isolationism, it was either going to come by way of the military, or it was going to come by way of political change, and either way, it would have been brutal.

Have you read Philip Roth's book about what might have happened if FDR lost to Lindbergh and America became fascist after WW2? I haven't finished it yet, but I presume this is a book about how, if you don't fight fascism, it will come, and in this book, it is through politics. And I suspect it is not going to work out well. Please tell me that pacifism isn't such a high ideal that you would have prefered the sort of velvet fascist revolution in America that Roth fictionalized in his book to FDR policing the world an imposing his view that democracy is good and fascism is bad.

Fascism is war without end. It might start with army vs army, but it finishes with state vs citizen (which is what the Holocaust was, or the first few days of the Bolivian water riots, before the army decided that it was on the citizens' side, and not Bechtel's). It seems to me that people who are adverse to war without end would be willing to nip fascism in the bud at the army vs army stage, as in WW2, or at the political stage (which is the solution to the problem with American action in Iraq, right now, I suspect).

[monicab]

65. We do not discount WWII... but....

we do not believe it was intended to begin a series of wars without end.. we believe it was intended to END WAR. The lives lost are not given the value and honor they deserve if we continue to use war as a problem solver. We need to look back to the reasons that WWII had to happen, and study them. We need to see those reasons in the reasons of today. Now that we know those reasons, we have to recognize that many of them have returned (or perhaps even never left) and we have to use non-violent means and tenacity to prevent a recurrence of war. Name-calling - "fascism, isolationism, pacifism, anti-war, imperialism..." - does nothing, and blaming does nothing. Taking a conscious, determined look at reasons of past wars, and working together in spite of our differences to find ways to prevent that from happening, will alleviate the need to criticize others for what they do. We have to stop the criticism, and start to solve the problem.

Monica

I would like to weigh in on this as well, at the risk of seeming like I am oversimplifying war, should we use the old adage "that a ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". I believe we have the means to look back at what happened and use the knowledge of the causes of the world wars and be prepared to use the info in a sound manner to prevent further wars. Once a drug addict or an alcoholic realizes that his behavior is harmful he is expected to take steps to curb his desire for things that bring him nothing but harm and misery.
Are we so addicted to war that we cannot even begin to see a better way to handle problems and solve differences in the world? Or are we just content to say that prior generations had wars so By God we can too?

Kevin

[AP]

83. The reason we had to fight WWII: To Stop Fascism. It was the same battle

FDR was fighting at home.

Granted, WWI started as a battle over shipping lanes. However, had the Austro-Hungarian empire won, it would have been at the great cost of democracy in France, and would have marked an end to the pro-worker achievements of the Labour Party in Great Britain.

[monicab]

95. The story of this war is no different.....

at any level, than the story of any war, from any time. In the grand design, it was destined to fail before the invasion happened. The government of this country is failing to support the service of our military men and women, and it is denying the sacrifice of, not only those same soldiers and their families, but also that of every person who has ever served in the name of freedom for this country, in the manner in which it now leads the American people.

When the American people are shown the truth of the sacrifice all of our soldiers have made and continue to make, when they are told the truth of the manner in which our government fails to support those soldiers, and their families, when they see the destruction that this war has actually caused, in vivid Technicolor reality, then, perhaps, the war will be called to a close, our soldiers brought home where they belong, and Americans will come together in strength against this ever happening again. The discipline of our leadership is a farce, the support of our leadership is a farce, and the truth needs to be shown to everyone who can make a difference.

The illusion is that the war is going well. The illusion is that our soldiers are strongly motivated and emotionally prepared for what they have volunteered to face. The illusion is that we are actually giving the Iraqis their freedom. The illusion is that we are taking care of those who are making the greatest sacrifice. The illusion is that our government cares about any of the humanity involved in this war. The illusion is that this war is right.

The truth is different: when the passion and commitment of our government equals the salary they have voted for themselves, when the campaign promises are no longer forgotten after the elections, when I can look a senator in the eye, or a president, or a secretary of defense, and know that he will remember words he spoke to me in the truth of his actions, then and only then, will our government begin to come close to deserving what all of our soldiers, and their families, in all of the wars ever fought, have sacrificed in the name of freedom for America. Then, the illusion might begin to fade, and Truth become stronger.

WAR IS WRONG. Our soldiers do not receive the support they and their families need. There is incredible waste in the military process, beginning with lives and ending with honor. We, as Americans, cannot give the Iraqis their freedom. We can give no one their freedom. Freedom is earned, and it is the Iraqis who will have to do the fighting, if it is truly freedom that they want. Until America leaves Iraq to the Iraqis, relinquishes their control on a culture we cannot begin to understand, freedom will not begin to materialize for the Iraqi people. Greatness is not represented well by a country that believes it must control the actions of others, all the while it cannot control the actions of itself.

Soldiers are dying, civilians are dying and America is the perpetrator. The only support that we should be giving our soldiers now, is in bringing them all home, where they can defend what is their DUTY to defend... their families, their country and their honor.

Someone has to be strong enough to stand against the illusion and tell the truth. And - Americans have to be strong enough to bear witness to what they are told.

[Tinoire]

86. I am really appreciating your conversation with AP

AP is a good friend, fellow poster, from way back whose integrity I have always admired.

I see things the same way you do

The lives lost are not given the value and honor they deserve if we continue to use war as a problem solver

Are we so addicted to war that we cannot even begin to see a better way to handle problems and solve differences in the world?

Or are we just content to say that prior generations had wars so By God we can too?


Kevin and Monica. After you get out, I really urge you to check out Veterans for Peace http://www.veteransforpeace.org/ We need more people like you. We have plenty but we need all the good ones. I would love to have you there. Check out the site. The organization does excellent work for the same things you believe in. Once yearly, there's a convention and I hope to see you at the next one. Please, please be there! Even if you can only come as a guest- let me know and I'll make it happen.

Anyway, you got me thinking about a book a fellow Vet for Peace, Joel Andreas, wrote. It's called "Addicted to War" and here is his site: http://www.addictedtowar.com/


Veterans For Peace is an official Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) represented at the UN.

Please continue discussing with AP. Just had to say that and now bow out to catch up on this thread.

Peace

[Sparkly]

53. A re-posted welcome!

(I wrote this in the first thread, and apologize if it was answered and I missed it.)

*******

"Kevin's case, and the mess going on with the Conscientious Objector application need to be talked about because there are about 2000 soldiers who have been denied CO status. We want to show them that they have options, and we want them to know that they shouldn't give up."

No doubt it's confusing and frightening for many of them. It must take a lot of courage and presence of mind to go against all the group-think of military training.

Reading some of the links in the OP, I'm not sure what option there is for most soldiers. Denied CO status, wouldn't they face the same charges of desertion, and even face court-martial?

If they're looking to your case, Kevin, to see what happens before making a decision, what will happen if the government uses you as an "example" for others -- what is the worst you might face from them?

I hope something can be done to allow people like you to succeed in pursuing CO status. There's a reason it exists! And clearly, our soldiers didn't enlist to risk their lives and kill innocent people for BushCo's profits.

Thanks for being here, and taking the time to answer questions!

[monicab]

63. THANK YOU

Thank you for your support, and for your questions. What will happen.. the right things will happen because things have gone too far for the government NOT to do the right thing now.

People need to know that they can take a stand for the right things, and make them happen. Others may face similar charges, but if they didn't do what they are charged with, we have to believe that the judicial system, even in the military, will stand by the truth in the end. It sometimes takes time, and it definitely takes commitment to seeing it all the way through, but when you believe in what you are doing because you know you have the TRUTH on your side.. you keep on fighting. You have to believe it, and you have to know that even baby steps mean you're moving forward, and sometimes backwards steps just mean stepping up and showing your determination a little more boldly.

For those who do apply for CO status, if they KNOW what they say is the truth, and they stand for it... they need to keep going, and fighting.. believe in themselves and fight for their conscience. It's worth it, and it's the right thing.

We'll answer more in the morning. We just wanted to let you know that we appreciate you're caring enough to want to write to us.

Thanks again... Monica and Kevin

[anarchy1999]

54. Thank you Tinoire and thank you most of all, Monica and Kevin.

I have no questions now for either of you. I'm just so much in awe of the two of you. It took lots of courage to stand up.

Cheers again to you both.

The Anarchy's

[LightningFlash]

60. A few questions.

Is there anything being done in Congress to protect the troops, and get them out of Iraq?

Is there any update or real honesty on the genocide in Iraq?

What is the real current situation in Iraq, without any corporate media spin?

Who is actually doing anything to stop the alleged drug trafficking, oil for food scandals, and problems Sybill Edmonds alluded to?

Is there ANY hope of the key generals in charge of launching chemical weapons, facing a trial and a court martial?

WILL the Iraqi people ever hold its occupation artists accountable?

Just from the tip of my head.

[monicab]

71. "A few questions." by LightningFlash

I think that the members of congress are doing some things to help get some of the armor and other things needed. But I believe the biggest form of help needed is to put them on ships and planes and get them home. I hope congress comes to their collective senses and starts now.

I have read a few articles that are probably close to the truth but you will not hear the complete truth here about it. I remember when I was there and had the chance to talk with Monica and hear what was being said on the news here and I knew that what was said here had nothing to do with what was really happening in the area I was.

I cannot say exactly what the current situation is now. I left there in Sep 2003. I will not speculate on events but I will say to take everything the major media say with a grain of salt because I would not trust them. I believe that you get a much more accurate reporting from independent media sources.

I cannot answer the question because I do not know who would be responsible for those problems.

At this point probably not, as the 1LT that killed the two unarmed Iraqis at the traffic control point was acquitted of murder. And the marine that shot the wounded Iraqi has not been charged under the UCMJ. To shoot a wounded person is against the Geneva Conventions and the Law of Land Warfare.

I can't answer that question, I suppose you would have to ask someone from that country. I would hope that something is done against the criminal elements that are responsible for, in my opinion,
102,000 murders. That's the 100,000 (estimated) Iraqis killed and the nearly 2,000 service members killed.

I wish that we the people of the United States will, with one voice, stand together and say ENOUGH. We will not be lied to any longer. The constitution of our country gives the authority to us and we have to use it to do the right thing. I wish that people would read the document and understand that the power to run this country is in our hands and that when the government gets out of control it is our responsibility to ensure that it operates under the laws of our nation.

Kevin

[bobthedrummer]

72. Our US Constitution is the rallying point for all Americans, not PATRIOT

ACT, Executive Orders nor Homeland Security. Not faith-based ideology. Not economic class. Everyday more people are rallying around our Constitution and speaking out about the crimes and corruption within this administration, including the illegal war on Iraq.

You know you're not alone, Kevin, since the Constitution is US. Thank you for your service and patriotism.
You and Monica have a good Memorial Day weekend.

[monicab]

73. rights and responsibility

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

These two amendments are the ones that say it all and I have copied these verbatim from the constitution.




Have a very safe weekend and I would humbly request that you all take the time this weekend to think for a moment of everyone that has died in this stupid war and all the other wars ever fought.

Think of everyone on both sides, civilian and soldier alike. Please take a moment to remember them all.

Kevin

[monicab]

66. update on Kevin's case/ hearing...

Today was the completion of the new Article 32 hearing for Kevin's case. The first one was thrown out because the Investigating Officer who conducted the hearing was found to be biased, even though she stated on record that she would be fair. During her investigation of the case, it came to light that she had made accusatory statements about Kevin to both the prosecution and the SJA's office, as well as to the Col. who is the convening authority for Ft. Stewart.

An Article 32 hearing, in the military judiciary system, is like a Grand Jury investigation. It is basically a discovery phase in which potential evidence is admitted so that the Investigating Officer can make a recommendation on how to proceed with the charges, either court martial, non-judiciary punishment, or drop the charges.

This was the day that the defense presented their witnesses. They were amazing. Many of the witnesses were part of Kevin's command structure who had been vindictive and accusatory to Kevin since before Kevin filed his CO application. They had already testifed in sworn statements, and in the first Article 32 hearing. The testimony they gave in this Article 32 hearing contradicted much of their own previous testimony. There were several instances in which commanders were caught in confusing statements by being caught off guard by questions asked.

We are hoping that the new Investigating Officer looks at everything presented in a fair assessment. We have little doubt of his decision, as long as he remains unbiased. We remain hopeful that things will continue to move in the direction of shedding light on the truth, not only in Kevin's case, but in the grander scale of this war, as, for some reason, the progress in one seems to be a mirror of the progress in another.

Thank you for your support. Monica and Kevin

[monicab]

68. A REQUEST FOR HELP... please...

In the reply to this post, I am going to post a letter we received from one of our Iraqi friends. He is not ready to have his email address given, but he would like to hear from people. I think that he could use some support from all of you. If you are willing to answer him, and if you would be willing to do it this way.. please type a letter to our friend, and email it to me at [e-mail]. I will then forward all letters on to this man and his family. I think that if he sees that your letters are coming from us then he will see that we trust you to help him, and that you are not just writing to take advantage of him. I think that in that way, we could begin to open dialogs without having to use us as a go-between.

Thank you for caring enough to do this.. and thank you in advance for your understanding for doing it this way. We believe that if we could get enough positive letters sent to this man, we could then make him comfortable enough to join us in this thread. We might even be able to encourage a couple more friends to do the same, and then... LET THE DIALOG BEGIN!!! Thanks again.

In Peace,

Monica and Kevin

[monicab]

69. from an Iraqi friend

Thank you very much for caring while you who need to be cared about.

I'm sorry for delay in reply, Monica, in fact I was involved in fixing the shattered glass of our house's windows after a huge, nearby car bomb explosion took place 2 days ago.
It was OK, no family member was hurt as all curtains were shut, a young man neighbor lost his life as he was out to fetch some bread from a nearby store when caught in the blast and burned inside his car. This was very moving and annoying as you don't know what to do to pacify the grieved, shocked poor parents, the mother in particular who was preparing for his marriage within the next few days.

What're the last news of Mr. Benderman, I can read only praising of him butnothing about the progress of the trial. May God be beside you both.

Keep in touch when you have spare time and the mood permits.

[Catrina]

74. What a wonderful idea, Monica

I will write a letter and email it to you as requested. If the people of the world could talk to each other rather than the leaders, I think it would make it very difficult for them to say they are representing us when they wage their wars.

I like your idea 'let the dialogue begin'. That is the way to bring peace to the world! :-)

Thanks also, for the update on Kevin's case ~ to me it seems promising so far? I know that before the last hearing, I wondered about Kevin getting a fair hearing, having followed the case up to that point.

The letter from your Iraqi friend is so valuable in that it shows the actual life of the people who are living with the horror of this war. That's a picture we don't usually get from the media.

Kevin, we will remember all those who have served this weekend. You might want to check the thread here where DU veterans checked in ~ I was astonished at how many DUers are currently serving or have served this country. It certainly debunks the rightwing lie that Democrats don't serve their country. I don't know how that lie was allowed to be perpetuated in the first place. I think that thread has over 400 posts the last time I looked.

Have a great weekend, you both deserve it ~ :patriot:

[monicab]

75. THE IDEA EXTENDED... help, please

We are also thinking that if we could have a thread in which people could write letters... we could then send the link not only to the people we speak to, but also to the people we know who communicate with Iraqi's as well.

An idea.. the people we talk with like to hear that Americans care.. but they seem to be quite strong, and don't seem to want to hear how apologetic we are.

They LOVE to talk about their country, in terms of its history, the good people in it, the desires they have for their future, and what they care about for their children, families, etc.

More than anything.. our friends have an incredible need for people to listen. They are so strong, so good, and have so much to offer... I look forward to the opportunity to listen as the possibility of a thread of dialog between two "warring" peoples becomes a reality.. .and the steps to peace become quickened.

THANK YOU... for caring.. and we look forward to making this happen.

In Peace... Monica and Kevin

[Catrina]

76. An excellent idea, Kevin and Monica

Maybe you were aware that we had something like that happening in the 'Faith Based Initiatives' topic in the Alternet forums. We had Muslims from several countries in the ME and wondered why this had not been happening ~ with the changeover, sadly, we lost contact with some of those wonderful people (working on getting back in touch with them) but we learned that we, the people, of the US and the people of their respective countries, had so much in common and very little that we disagreed about.

I think the idea of a special thread is a great one ~ I for one, would love to know more about the Iraqi people, their incredible history and how they are coping with what must be a terrifying period for them.

How wonderful that they are reaching out to you ~ imagine if such an idea were to spread across the world? There are WAY more of us, than there are of those who favor war. We see that in every poll from every country, so maybe all it will take is for the majority, (the peacemakers) to join forces by communicating with each other.

I'm looking forward to such a thread ~ :-)

[monicab]

80. Done with care..

We do have to think about this, however. We want it to be done with compassion and care. AND... we should want it to be positive.. How to we make that happen? How do we ensure that the respect that both sides should have, is maintained?????

Something to think about.

In the meantime... anyone who wishes to correspond with our friends, are free to send letters to our email address and we will forward them along. Thank you for caring.

[progressivebydesign]

84. What an amazing idea, Thank you Monica.

I have longed for a way to reach out to the Iraqi people. I cannot imagine how it would feel to have those things going on in my country. Perhaps the ordinary Iraqis trapped in the middle of this don't realize how courageous it is for them to simply live their lives as normally as possible. Just getting up and getting dressed is an act of hope each morning while living in that situation.

I plan to send a letter through your email address. Thank you for your kind offer to facilitate this.. and thank you for speaking out. You and Kevin are also quite courageous.

[monicab]

77. Gifts from far away are in the form.....

of letters like the one following that help us know there is HOPE... we wanted to share this and some of the letters that we exchange with some very good people in Iraq... we believe that we all can help this terrible rift begin to heal with dialog such as this, and even more.



""I don't deserve your praise as I'm an ordinary Iraqi
person, shares the same culture and tradition with my fellow Iraqis,
I do like, hate calmed, enraged... The only difference, may be, is
that I can express myself in English.
I do share your believe that people should reach out to each other,
in fact people could make a difference when they fully utilize the new
opportunities made available by the electronic age *Internet* which I
think is still in it's infancy.

Such simple interrelations could do the huge task of letting different
people understand/digest the diversity in cultures and inherited traditions which makes our world interesting and admirable, a
task that couldn't be achieved even by the most prominent scholars or
universities known.

I believe, when we reach the point when most people are well aware of
others civilizations, then there will be a mutual respect to each others particularities away from inferior/superior trend of
these days which divides and makes our beautiful world inhospitable at
large.

I can recall the days when we, my family, had many non-Iraqi friends
among them many Americans who were involved in building the highway
between Basrah and Umarah *two towns in the south* in the 1950's and
how they were moving freely *no low profile* and many were joining my
father in sport hunting in the marshes without feeling
embarrassed by wide cultural differences with the natives. This
continued until the US started "and dangerously" fiddling with the regions politics and peoples interests in the late 60's.


I wish you both the best of best and peace of mind.

Thank you again and hope to receive you both at my
home as true friends when the time permits, hope soon.""

[monicab]

79. How the dialog has continued...

Thank you for your last email. You are teaching me, and you are teaching my husband.

It was interesting to hear you mention "hunting in the marshes." One of my husband's favorite past-times is that. He is also an avid fisherman, and we have many beautiful ponds, lakes and rivers in the area around where we live. We have enjoyed sitting in the mornings before sunrise and using the excuse of a fishing line in the water to
justify doing nothing except watch the sunrise, and the mist come up off of the lake. We haven't caught much this past season, but the scenery is beautiful just the same.

We hope to be able to learn much about the history of your country. We know about the "spiritual" history, to some extent, although realize that there is so much more to learn. When my husband was
there, he took many pictures of the countryside around where he was staying. He took pictures of the river and the foliage, and some beautiful pictures of the morning and evening skies. He also wrote and told stories about looking up at the stars at night, and how many layers of stars that he could see, stars that here, in our urban areas, people will never know exist. My husband and I enjoy our quiet places here.

We enjoy traveling, but getting off of the major highways and driving on the backroads that take us to small towns that don't rush as fast as people do in the big cities. We meet people in these towns who, I believe, would better understand the things you speak about than some of those who live in the metropolitan areas, they are more willing to take the time to slow down and learn. In our small towns, more
people still stop and say HI, they talk to each other, and
they look out for each other. It is to the people in these small places, and to any people who will listen, that we talk to about you, and your country, and the many wonderful experiences that my husband had while he was there. We don't forget the difficult things that he saw, he uses them to let people know why we have to stop this
terrible madness, and do something together to see that it never happens again. But the people love to hear the good stories, as well. It is the good stories that teach them about your differences, and that those differences are okay, and are to be encouraged, not discouraged.

We are grateful for you. You are a special person because you are an
"ordinary Iraqi person".. that is the very best part. We, too, are just ordinary Americans... but it's going to take the people that
consider themselves "ordinary" to begin the process of learning about each other, and knowing that we are really all just the same, even though we have differences.

My husband has filed for Conscientious Objector status so that he does not have to return to your country at this time, sir. But we
are so touched by your offer that one day we can meet in Iraq, in peace. We, too, hope that the time will be very soon.

The more that you teach us, sir, the more we can teach others here, who really do want to know. It means so much that you continue to stay in touch. Thank you for that.

Please stay safe, sir, and one day, soon, peace will happen.

[Mugweed]

78. Keep the truth alive!

Thank you for relating your realities.

[DistressedAmerican]

81. Welcome To All Of Our Service Men And Women!

Great Post As Usual Tinoire!!!

Keep up the great work!

[merh]

82. Hey Tinoire

Do you have a link to your first thread?

I was looking for some info in that one. :hi:

[Tinoire]

87. Here you go... Link to first thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3701519#3710319

You know, just when I think all hope is lost, I see this inspiring conversation with Kevin and Monica and realize that there is hope we'll find our way out of this madness one day.

And the internet is a vital part of it...

[merh]

88. We are making a difference, we just have to keep believing

in ourselves and our nation and we must NEVER GIVE UP!
Thanks for this link and these wonderful threads! :toast:

[Swamp Rat]

85. kick

[monicab]

89. Because we care..

we post some of the letters that we receive from our friends in Iraq. These are special people to us, and we know that everyone that we have had the chance to speak with in this DU thread understands and respects how fragile a relationship with anyone from Iraq can be right now.

Every person that we write with from Iraq contacted us first, through our website. We have been very careful not to abuse their trust, and we are proud that we are able to begin to build a relationship with these good people. We care about them, and we will do everything in our power to keep them safe. We know that much of it rests in the hands of the God they (and we) pray to, but we will not do anything to put them in more jeopardy than they already are.

This was a difficult decision to make, choosing to post their letters here. We felt it was something that had to happen, in order to begin to allow a dialog between the people of our country and theirs. It's a small effort, but we know that it can grow if done with compassion and respect. It will take baby steps, and it will have to be done with great caution. We made the choice, because we have come to believe that everyone here shares our sense of responsibility, and our sense of awe at being able to share in that responsibility of making a positive effort to bring about peace. Not just peace for the current conflict in Iraq, but PEACE in the lives of everyone, no matter their differences.

We care so much about these good Iraqi friends. We are putting our trust in the people we are getting acquainted with in this forum.. and know that you will come to care about these special people of Iraq just as much as we do.

Thank you for your understanding... and thank you for your respect. KEVIN AND I ARE THE ONES IN AWE of all the good people there are in this world. We're just glad to have the chance to be part of the healing process.

What a great way to start this Memorial Day Weekend - making it MEMORABLE.

Have a good night. Monica and Kevin

[monicab]

90. a letter ..

I'm very sorry not to reply to your last message .. I
was busy a little bit...
let me tell you some thnigs about us I am Electronics engineer, working in the private sector my wife is perfect woman,mother,house manager she is the gift of ALLAH(God) to me in 1994 we had a twin babies boy and girl they had
finish their Exams two days ago in fifth primery school in 2001 we had a baby girl she is filling our small home with joy .

life here is much more difficult than you can imagin some car bombing and other attackes are hundreds of meters away from us ... any body can kill any one for no reason ... democracy is a big lie ...peace is a far away hope ... our heart are bleeding for watching the
endless killing of inocent people for nothing. our beautiful cities changed to war fields
But life must go on ... our faith is stronger than
what happening to us

[Just Me]

92. I am sincerely grateful for you proving our common humanity.

You two have your priorities straight: value ALL life, embrace ALL humanity.

People around the globe seek unification via our common human threads, and we are developing a growing awareness that those who divide us do so for themselves, not us. We don't want kings or dictators or empires. We want eachother,...to live together under the same rules and with the same opportunities.

We want to be TREATED equally and are willing to invest in one another.

I wish you both an endearing Memorial Day.

[progressivebydesign]

91. kicking for friends near and far... n/t

[SolarAxi]

93. Thank you Kevin, Monica and Democratic Underground

I just joined DU, because of this thread.

Kevin and Monica, thank you so much for your courage and compassion! (I will be sending an email to your Iraqi friends via the email address you provided.)

Our soldiers are being lied to, maimed and killed for corporate control of all natural resources in order to secure the raw materials necesssary for the production of weapons and the financing of global conflict as a multi-trillion dollar industry.

Perpetual war cannot become our single global industrial base. The very life support systems of this planet are in danger. These are no longer just matters of geopolitical dominance, religion, or ideological framework. The survival of the human species is at risk along with most other forms of life on Earth.

We must evolve beyond conquest and learn to cooperate or the survivors, if any, will inherit a global toxic wasteland unfit for habitation.

Please know that our thoughts and prayers are with you and with all those men and women who are putting their freedom and their lives on the line for peace. Thank you!

[monicab]

94. rights as I see them

This is a compilation of things I feel are important for us to remember, the 1st is a quote from Mark Twain and the second the is the Bill of Rights of the constitution.

I have added my comments in parentheses as I feel they are relevant to us. The last two amendments are very plain to me in the intent to give the authority the people of the United States and not to the Government.

Thank you
Kevin




"For in a Republic, who is 'the country?' Is it the Government which is for the moment in the saddle? Why, the Government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them." -- Mark Twain (1835-1910)


Bill of Rights
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


(The USA Patriot act blows the 1st amendment right out of the water doesn't it, Good by freedom of speech)


Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.



(Another victim of the USA Patriot act)


Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.



Kevin M Benderman

Believer of the constitution and it's protections over THE PEOPLE of the United States.

[monicab]

96. Another letter.... regarding Memorial Day...

from an Iraqi friend... who is also welcoming letters from people here who wish to write...

As to the "Memorial Weekend", I think it's proper to honor soldiers and people who lost their lives Defending their homes and country against a real invasion or aggression which never happened to US, in the last 6 decades at least. On the contrary all who died during this period, had lost their lives to the greed of the big weapon corporate, oil businesses, backing tyrants and the imperial expansion dreams or to maintain grip on others lands.

I totally agree with the idea of honoring the past by learning never to allow wars and other sloppy things to happen again, in fact this is the true benefit of reading history, otherwise, it's only to kill spare time of idleness or to enhance the methods of killing.

Regarding letters of your friends, all are happily welcome, your friends are mine too.

In reply to friend,_____, and her family, I'm deeply appreciate their sincere true sensations and want to assure you,______, that most Iraqis understand your position and aware of the existence of considerable number of American people who carry the good or even the best values of a human being.
We know that most Americans are cultured thinking people and they who're doing the body count and archiving of my country's losses on our behalf.
Many Americans came recently to my country's most "forbidden" no go regions, mingled, ate and drank tea with the fiercest fighters ** I, myself don't dare to get near them** and returned home greeted, only because they came as peaceful human beings seeking the truth. The truth about what's really going on here.
I don't claim that we were living under good conditions or having the least requirements for decent life before the seize of my country, but, we're now left without even the few useful, humble things we used to have. Life conditions become worst than a lawless jungle and continues to slide down.

Despite all these atrocities and colossal miseries, we didn't lose our orientation, thanks for God and to our deeply rooted civilization.
We still can distinguish between colors with adequate efficiency.

Hope my abbreviation can add some light and pacify you _______.

Thank you very much for caring and hope we will find a way to finish this total foolishness to the best of our peoples and humanity.
Let's pray for the Bendermans to safely get over their difficulties.

[leftchick]

97. than you so much for this

:cry:

I am speechless.

[monicab]

100. One of our Iraqi friends sent this......

with "The Candle of Hope" in the subject line...
THANK YOU for caring, and for allowing us to share your hearts with our friends.. they need it, and appreciate it. We appreciate it as well. Our friend sent this to all of you...

""Dear friends

No words can describe our happiness and gratefulness
toward these noble feelings , which shows the bright
side of American community . The war criminal
politicians in the U S government shows the whole
world the dark side of America, everybody thinks that
United states can happily lost her sons just for Oil.

We really hope that these feelings become a true
pressing force against the evil movements of U S
government supported by Zionist to ruin every good
thing in the world.

We assure that every thing to gyrate in the western
media is Big Lies, no democracy, no freedom , no
reconstruction, no good thing at all , just organized
stealing for Iraqi resources and massive killing for
innocent people all controlled by C I A , MOSAD and
other dirty organizations.

It is not the matter of Iraq the whole word is
affected with what happening in here. It is shame on
all man kind

The candle of your noble feeling beats the darkness
of the evil . ""

From a Friend in Iraq