Should children who lie about being sexually abused be put on a registry?

[Occulus]

These children are dangers to every adult they come into contact with. No, I am NOT being snarky here. My husband was railroaded into a conviction for a sex offense as the result of a messy divorce situation in which his ex-wife and stepson concocted a scheme to get him convicted.

The stepson testified, on the stand, that the "offender" was actually sleeping during the "offense". Grok that, if you will. I can't.

Children who do this always eventually realize one of two things: either it was wrong (in which case, it's far far too late for the convicted, even if his accused recants; for sex offenses, recanting an accusation doesn't seem to matter all that much), or they realize that they have a very great deal of power over the adults they come into contact with.

It is, truly, a personally, socially, financially, and professionaly devastating thing to be accused of, because even if the accusation turns out to be false, some people will forever look askance at the falsely accused. Even here at DU, Certain People seem to think that sex offenders "DO NOT STOP OFFENDING", even if that is demonstrably untrue.

Back to my original point: children who falsely accuse adults of criminal sexual conduct are an extreme danger to every adult they are in contact with. All it takes for them to get a "mean mommy" or "mean daddy" out of their life is to concoct a story and stick to it. Having an angry soon-to-be-ex-spouse around doesn't hurt much, either. NO physical evidence is required.

So: should such children be subject to a parallel registry, one which points out which kids have been know to make false accusations?

And if not, WHY not? After all, once you've been accused, let alone convicted, you're deeply stigmatized. It's inescapable, and it's wrong, and it puts way too much power in the hands of little minds who just might very well know better.

I posted this knowing full well I'll get flamed for it, but the question does need to be asked. False sexual abuse accusations have driven people to suicide. My husband is seeking counseling, not due to his offense, but due to the public's response. He's unemployable due to extreme depression brought on by having his name, OUR address (yes, my address as well, EVEN THOUGH I'VE DONE NOTHING TO DESERVE IT), his photo, physical description, and now email alerts to the community he lives in and the people who live near him being available online, 24/7. He's classified as disabled because of this.

Why shouldn't lying kids who bring this to adults who've done nothing be equally punished?

Why shouldn't THEY be on a registry as well?

[redqueen]

1. Completely unnecessary.

How rampant is this problem?

[LoZoccolo]

8. I don't think that's a criteria for not paying it attention.

You could make the argument that fewer people were tortured at Abu Ghraib and then say that that's no big deal, just because it's relatively few people.

[redqueen]

10. Sure, by all means address it.

But a national registry?

That idea is simply ridiculous.

[LoZoccolo]

22. Well yeah, I'm not sure about that either.

She points out some problems with registering people and then proposes another registry.

[forgethell]

21. I don't know, but

I can guarantee that false accusations of rape and sexual harassment happen all the time. Not to mention lesser offenses. There should be should punishment for abusing the legal processes like that.

[redqueen]

28. A punishment for adults? Sure.

Children? Not so much.

[Eloriel]

146. False reports occur less than 2% of the time for both

rape and child sexual abuse.

Since sexual harrassment isn't a crime, per se, I doubt there are statistics, but I can assure you as a woman that not many women are stupid enough to put themselves thru the living hell that such a false allegation would craete.

Bank on it, buster.

[forgethell]

150. 2% is a lot

of innocent men.

And I can assure you, there are lots of stupid women out there who are also mean.

Bank on it, lady

[Eloriel]

162. 2% is REPORTS, not convictions

minor detail you overlooked there.

Tell you what, I'll be properly outraged about this when the perpetrators of 98% of all violence against women and children are arrested, tried AND convicted. 'Kay?

'Cause right now most of them are going scott freakin' free.

[forgethell]

168. Well, I myself

have enough outrage for both conditions. Want I should share?

[Eloriel]

178. No, I think you're doing all that's needed on the

under 2%. But thanks.

[forgethell]

310. You're welcome n/t

[forgethell]

337. Actually, I didn't

overlook it at all. The accusations are bad enough by themselves. The convictions just make the plunge into hell deeper and hotter. Damnation to allliars.

[ultraist]

188. Hostile environment stats

Actually, there are some stats on sexual harassment in the workplace. It's common knowledge that most sexual harassment goes unreported, so the numbers are much lower than actual occurrences. This is also the case for rape. The United States Justice Dept stats page, notes that rape is very under reported for adult women and for children. Estimates for rape and child molestation are far higher than the actual stats of reported crimes. This info is readily available if he really wanted to know the FACTS. ;)

[Warpy]

34. Remember the day care case in Massachusetts?

Paranoid parents and overzealous prosecutors coached and recoached the chilren at that day care center to convict the owner and her son of massive child sexual abuse. Children are creatures for whom reality is a very slippery commodity. One needs to look at their testimony very, very carefully and consider what motives adults around them have for coaching them in it.

The fact that the child testified that daddy was asleep during the abuse should have raised a big, red flag for everyone who heard it. Children will try to tell the truth, even when they've been carefully coached to lie.

The people in Massachusetts? After a little over a decade in prison, they were released when the children recanted and told the stories of how they had been coached by the ambitious DAs. They lost years of their lives and everything they had worked for. The children will carry the guilt of that all their lives.

When a child has recanted, anyone involved in coaching him or her needs to be charged. THAT is what your registry should consist of, not the children.

[redqueen]

39. Now there's a sane idea.

I'm all for punishing those who would knowingly promote false accusations against anyone - child molesters or otherwise.

[Eloriel]

154. I could definitely get behind that.

The key is "knowingly," tho. But aside from that, yes, I thoroughly like this idea.

[Occulus]

54. I'm glad you brought that up.

That is exactly what I'm talking about.

[blondeatlast]

216. Eitehr you miswrote, or you are softening your position.

In you SL, you specifically say Should CHILDREN who lie be registered.

What Warpy proposed and has found much agreement with is registering the ADULTS who deliberately manipulate those children, not the children themselves.

I see a gaoping difference in the two proposals, myself.

[LostinVA]

58. And Little Rascals in NC, McMartin in CA

in those cases, however, the children were very much lead top testimony. I do believe that cases of older children doing this with malicious intent SHOULD be addressed in some way. They have ruined the lives and careers of adults by doing this. Not any kind of registry.... but something. But what???

[geniph]

67. That sounds like you're talking about the Wenatchee case

or was there a similar one in Massachusetts? The one here in Washington state was f***ing crazy - one particular cop got it into his head that there was Satanic ritual abuse going on at this daycare, and between the cop, the PD investigators, some unethical hypnotists, etc., those kids got so confused and wrapped around the axle that they were telling stories about underground passageways to ritual chambers draped in black and infant sacrifices, yada yada. A number of people spent a very long time in jail. I think a couple may still be in jail. Horrible case.

I wouldn't register the kids in that case - in their case, it was totally induced suggestion from the investigators. The kids were trying to say whatever made them happy. Eventually, some of the kids began to insist that it was all true, even though there's not a shred of physical evidence backing it up. I'd sure as hell register that whackjob cop.

Now, in a case where a kid very deliberately makes up this kind of stuff - I don't know what to do there. That's a tough thing to do, brand a kid for a bit of juvenile nastiness. It ruins lives, too, but one of the reasons kids aren't usually held to the same standards as adults is that they often don't have the ability to clearly understand the consequences of their actions. I've known kids that did just that, accused someone (usually a disliked step-parent) of molestation and/or abuse. One of my nieces did that to her stepfather. She has since recanted and made a full apology, but it caused him a couple of very bad years, all because she was angry at her mother for divorcing and remarrying (even though her father remarried as well).

[Eloriel]

173. You know, let me remind you of something

I've known kids that did just that, accused someone (usually a disliked step-parent) of molestation and/or abuse. One of my nieces did that to her stepfather. She has since recanted and made a full apology...

Children don't have enough of a frame of reference to MAKE false allegations, depending on the age of the child and so forth. I'm not necessarily doubting your story, but I just want to point that out -- and that even so-called "recantations" can be every bit about familial pressure as anything else. NO child wants to be abandoned, physically or emotionally. NO child wants a cessation of the love and support they need to survive physically and emotionally.

PLEASE, people, don't automatically dismiss ANY child's allegations. BELIEVE THE CHILDREN, and you will be their personal guardian angel and help save the quality of their whole future lives. Please believe the children until you've been forced to KNOW otherwise.

[redqueen]

320. Recantations can be the result of pressure, as false accusations can.

You're dead-on that that needs to be accepted by anyone who is around a child who has made these allegations.

[geniph]

387. That really depends on the age of the child in question

I'm not talking about six-year-olds here; the cases I've known where the kids made such allegations about their stepparents that they later admitted were out of vindictiveness were both in the 11-13 age range. And they most certainly knew enough to make false allegations, in both cases.

For small children, I agree with you. For teenagers - no, not always.

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. Same thing happened in California

EVERY teacher at the McMartin PreSchool lost his/her state certification and can never teach again. And most of the teachers were never accused. The accusations that were made against the family running the school were completely false. Yet their lives were ruined.

Yes, I do think something should be done when false accusations ruin lives.

[LostinVA]

82. Peggy (Virginia McMartin's granddaughter) finally

Did get her license back. I was living in NC when the Little Rascals case happened, and that was even worse -- I think some of the people may still be in jail -- doing hard time. No evidence, daycare in the middle of town, mainly young women and elderly ladies convicted. All of the kids that went to the local social worker said they did it. All of the ones that went to people in Greensboro and Raleigh said it didn't happen. The local cop BURNED ALL OF HER INTERVIEW TAPES. et. etc./ etc. It apparently happened because the owner (a man) disciplined a child rather harshly one day. Many of those convicted had their own small children AT THE DAYCARE. Same thing: underground tunnels, infant sacrifices, local cops involved.

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. I hadn't heard Peggy got her license back

And if she did, that is good. I did hear one of the teachers interviewed just a year ago and she claimed they all lost their certification and no judge would hear the case to get it back.

That case was pretty tragic. It started when a parent with a history of psychiatirc problems basically made up an accusation. And it just snowballed from there.

There was a case in NJ too wasn't there?

[LostinVA]

116. I'll double check, but I remember the GREAT TV movie

with Sada Thompson had a little "update" tacked on the end, and it said she had received it back. I also think she had to legally change her name to get a job. They also lost everything they owned: house, business, savings, reputation. Jesus, Virginia was wheelchair bound!!!

I think there was one in NJ and FL. The one in NC was horrible -- WORSE then the McMartin.

Yeah, and it appears the ex-husband was abusing the original little boy. The mom was whacked.

There's someone in the LA Minister/Kids/Cat case thread insisting the McMartins did it and they found the tunnels...

[proud2BlibKansan]

246. You have got to be kidding

They tore down that building. I saw it on TV. There was NOTHING underneath it.

Some people believe anything I guess.

[alarimer]

189. This has happened a number of times

A lot of these cases turn out to be children who lied or were coerced into telling those lies by iverzealous prosecutors or DAs looking to move up politically so they needed a conviction in a big show trial.

I have a friend of the family (a priest as it happens) who was falsely accused by a juvenile delinquent he helped and it nearly ruined the guy. This was before the current scandal.

[blondeatlast]

215. Precisely. I don't think children are capable of coming up with false

stories on their own, but are easily manipulated.

My son had a very, very minor incident and was able to tell me about it in his own way, even at the age of 5 (with a child his age, nothing alarming, we and the other child's parent took care of it together and they are still good friends).

Whatever the case--ANY adult who manipulates a child like that ought to do some time, even if just a few months. They certainly should not be allowed to continue to practice.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

282. In none of the cited instances -

McMartin et al. - were the children anything but pawns of fucked-up adults with specific agendas of their own. The children were so small, they would never be found cupable for what they were manipulated into saying.

And, those kids, now grown, have lived difficult and troubled lives, troubled because of what they believe they did to the people who were unfairly convicted.

A registry for children? What the FUCK is that about? Why not just organize camps and warehouse them? An idiotic idea.

[redqueen]

321. hehehehe... yes! A most idiotic idea!

That's *exactly* what I first posted, then changed it because I thought I was being too harsh.

:hi:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

389. Tell me, redqueen -

in matters that are blatantly moronic, is there really such a thing as "too harsh"?

heh heh heh

[redqueen]

400. Depends on my mood...

My first instinct is to say no, but then absent proof of willfull ignorance, I'm always willing to try to gently educate those that were previously unaware. :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. Well I know three teachers

who have been falsely accused and lost their jobs.

[redqueen]

83. That's sad.

However, I know more children who have been abused and were too scared to even accuse their tormentors.

Guess who gets the larger dose of my sympathy?

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. I am sympathetic to both

There is absolutely no reason for an innocent teacher's or any adult's life and reputation to be completely ruined due to hysteria and false accusations. And if we were more open about this problem and taught kids how to protect themselves, we would have far fewer children who are victims.

So I think we need to solve BOTH of these problems. I sympathize with victims on both ends of this horror.

[redqueen]

119. As am I.

But they're not equal, so I don't give them equal sympathy or attention.

Does that make sense to you?

[proud2BlibKansan]

237. I think they have been

equally wronged.

[proud2BlibKansan]

247. They are BOTH injustices

Different kinds of injustice, but both need to be corrected.

[Pushed To The Left]

252. I agree 100%!

Falsely accusing somebody of child molestation is downright evil.

[proud2BlibKansan]

256. I know a woman

whose son recently killed himself. He was a doctor and was falsely accused of molesting a patient. He had already spent tens of thousands of dollars on his defense and it came down to his word against the patient's. He was facing a lengthy legal battle and just couldn't take the stress anymore.

So I think the adults who are falsely accused can suffer as much or more than the kids who are abused.

[redqueen]

322. Stress?

You're honestly comparing someone who couldn't handle the stress of being falsely accused to the emotional pain and LIFELONG torment of someone who was sexually abused -- usually this happens at the hands of a TRUSTED family member or friend?

I don't even fucking know what to say to that.

:puke:

[proud2BlibKansan]

332. Well you didn't HAVE TO say anything

This was one of the saddest funerals I have ever attended. This man's child has no father anymore, his wife has no husband. His parents lost a son. And his community lost a gifted physician. I would say those are rather dire consequences.

BTW, his family hired a private investigator who was able to determine the accusation by the doctor's patient was false. Now they are pursuing a lawsuit against the patient.

I don't know that I agree with the OP's suggestion of a registry of false accusers, but hitting them in their wallets works fine for me.

[redqueen]

334. Oh yes I did.

It's sad that this man CHOSE to kill himself, but he CHOSE to do that.

It's sad that that son is now without a father, and all the rest of what you said, because of his CHOICE, but it was his CHOICE.

It's great that they got proof and are considering suing... more power to 'em. But don't dare to compare a guy who can't handle stress to a child whose ability to trust is most often ruined for LIFE by a fa frickin family member or friend and expect not to get called on it.

And... you 'don't know that you agree' with a registry for frickin CHILDREN?

Yeah, that says it all.

[proud2BlibKansan]

393. I don't agree that any adult lives should be ruined

or damaged by false accusations because there are genuine cases of abuse. I also don't think innocent people should be sent to prisons just because we have a crime problem in this country.

[redqueen]

319. Well obviously they're both injustices.

Duh.

But equally wronged?

Not by a long shot. I find it shocking and sad anyone thinks so, but you know what they say about opinions. :)

[Rabrrrrrr]

111. Wow. It's so impressive you are able to pick and choose

where your sympathy goes like that.

"Sorry, I can't be sympathetic to you because there's this other problem that I think is more important, and I only have just so much sympathy to dole out."

I guess I'm the type who can have sympathy for children who have been abused AND an equal sympathy for adults who have been wrongly accused.

But, maybe I'm being evil by not focusing on the children?

:shrug:

[redqueen]

118. Having a problem reading what I actually wrote?

Or is it more a case of skewing what I said to suit yourself?

Gee, now why would you do that?

[Rabrrrrrr]

137. No. Perhaps you're having a problem being clear.

or perhaps I misread you...

but you said

However, I know more children who have been abused and were too scared to even accuse their tormentors.

Guess who gets the larger dose of my sympathy?

Meaning (as I read it), that the adults who are falsely accused get a SMALLER DOSE of your sympathy than the children who are abused. If the abused children get the LARGER DOSE, then the falsely accused adults get a SMALLER DOSE, for the simple reason that there are more abused kids than falsely accused adults.

Unless you meant something else?

Seems to me that basing the sympathy you give out on the numerical significance of the crime is a rather bad way to dole out sympathy.

The way your wrote it sounds like this:

"sorry, person with diabetes, but more people die of cancer than die of diabetes - guess who gets the larger does of my sympathy?"

Where I'm saying, it would be nice to give them equal amounts of sympathy.

[redqueen]

324. You misread before, but now you seem to get it.

You seem to grok now that it's a case of measures. I feel more sympathy for someone who's a quadrapalegic than someone missing a leg. That's just how I think.

However before, you seeemed to be saying that I felt NO sympathy for the falsely accused.

Here's your take on what I had posted:

"Sorry, I can't be sympathetic to you because there's this other problem that I think is more important, and I only have just so much sympathy to dole out."

I didn't say I wasn't sympathetic at all. I said I was less sympathetic.

I wholeheartedly disagree that it would be nice to give them equal amounts of sympathy. I think that's ridiculous.

[Eloriel]

182. How do you know they were "falsely accused"?

What evidence do you have?

And if it was falsely, why did they lose their jobs?

[proud2BlibKansan]

263. One is a long time friend

No way would she have hit a kid as she was accused of doing.

Second one the kid admitted he made up the accusation.

Third one filed a lawsuit and won. Proved the kid was lying.

All three were non-tenured teachers. The district fired them when they were accused. That is a lot more common than most folks realize. The school district looks out for itself and its reputation.

[Eloriel]

271. Hitting a kid isn't a sex offense, the subject of this thread

You haven't said what the other two were, so I don't know.

My contention is that children do not typically make up sex stories. They simply have no frame of reference for it -- UNLESS they've been molested, abused, etc.

[proud2BlibKansan]

286. The other two were sexual

I am sorry. I was thinking false accusations in general.

And I know that kids DO make up sex stories. They know the damage that can be done with a false accusation. LIke I said, I have seen it first hand.

I will admit that older kids are more likely to make false sexual accusations than younger kids. And a very sad reality is that kids who have been victims are more likely to make false accusations. Ask any therapist or social worker.

[yella_dawg]

76. How rampant is the problem?

I know personally two people who have been found innocent of such charges. Another very close friend has been under the Sword of Damocles for two years because the case is weak and the DA won't bring it to trial. Ten years ago, I had a neighbor who openly bragged that she had her step dad put away on false charges.


Maybe I'm a statistical fluke, but it's a problem.

[redqueen]

85. I agree it is a problem.

I also believe it is nowhere NEAR as big a problem as molestation.

[Ripley]

94. Also makes you wonder...

When someone knows "lots" of people who have been "falsely" accused. Hmm.

[redqueen]

104. As a victim...

I have to bite my tongue a LOT in these threads.

[Ripley]

113. And I usually can't bite my tongue...

So I'm sure I'll be deleted a few times. :argh:

[LostinVA]

125. No, teachers are often the target of false accusation

Because they are an adult that plays a large part in a kid's life. So, it makes sense. It does happen. I don't always agree with some of "Proud's" posts, but she's right on target here., Saying people are falsely accused isn't saying children are never right. It is a problem that needs to be addressed, just as society needs to do a hell of alot more to help kids and women who are being abused. One doesn't negate the other. We're on the same side of this issue.

[redqueen]

131. We just need to put cameras in every classroom. n/t

[LostinVA]

134. I agree with this if it's not done when class is in session

Actually, I think it's excellent to have it before and after school. Not during, because teachers don't need to let administration have THAT Big Brother tool.

[tblue37]

403. Actually, many teachers have said

they want their classes videotaped, because they want the evidence of how they are running the class, since so often these days kids are out of control and/or make claims that are unfounded.

BTW, with unrestricted cable television viewing and the influence of older kids in their lives, not to mention the absence in many cases of responsible adult guidance, children actually do have a frame of reference for making up false sex charges.

Also, kids are taught about "bad touching" in the early years of school, but they don't necessarily comprehend the concept, so that any touching that annoys the kid might get called "bad touching," even something as innocuous as taking a kid by the shoulder and moving him from a play activity to get him to do what he is supposed to be doing.

I love kids, but they are smarter than a lot of people give them credit for, and they can be devious when they see an advantage to it. Relationships between adults and children are often power struggles, and kids are like any other creature: when they are engaged in a power struggle, they will use an advantage if they can. If the child has not been carefully taught to have concern about the impact his behavior has on others, or if he has a tendency to be impulsive and self-aggrandizing, then he might well think it is ok to make up stores.

Once in my home daycare, an 8-year old boy got mad at me because I corrected him for leaving the cap off the toothpaste tube. Actually, what he was mad about was that I didn't believe him when he said he didn't do it. (I saw, so I knew.) I wasn't mad about the toothpaste tube cap—it was a trivial thing, after all. I was just reminding him that he needed to always put the cap back on. Eight-year-olds do forget stuff like that all the time, and part of our job in raising them is to gently and consistently remind them until they form the habit and no longer need reminding.

But when James left for school a couple of minutes later he was still mad at me, so he moped around on the playground until the bell rang to go inside the building.

Another child’s mother saw his moping and asked him what was wrong. He told her that I had held him down on the floor so all the other kids in the daycare could punch and kick him!!!!!

She raged into the principal’s office to report the “abuse.” Fortunately for me, the people at the school knew me very well. I lived right across the street, and for 16 years (by then—I did daycare for 18 years total) I had been the daycare provider for many of their students. The kids all loved me, and I was always over there at the school doing volunteer work, meeting with their teachers, etc.

So instead of calling the cops, as that mother demanded, the principal called me.

I was so upset—and scared—that I was literally shaking. I called the child’s mother and told her that both of her kids (her toddler daughter was in my care, too) had to be out of my daycare immediately. “I don’t even want him to come back here after school,” I said. You come now and pick up the baby, and then pick him up after school. He can’t come back here!”

By the way, these two children were among my very favorites. Both had come to me at age 2 months, and I had babysat them 55 hours a week, plus often on weekends and evenings, since both parents had demanding jobs.

And both kids loved me, too—a lot. But the little boy was often angry and frustrated that his parents were never around, and he sometimes didn’t take well to being corrected.

Well, the mom begged me to keep the toddler for that day at least, though she did pick the little boy up from school. He was very upset. He wanted to come back to my place, where all his friends were. Again, he loved me, and kids loved being at my place. I am astonishingly good with kids.

When he was made to understand that I wasn’t going to babysit him any more, he totally freaked out. He went hysterical right there at the school, crying and begging to go back to me. By this time, of course, he had long since admitted to the principal that he had made up that story because he was mad at me about the toothpaste, so when he discovered that having made the accusation was going to get him expelled from my daycare, even though he had almost immediately retracted it, he was beyond upset.

His mother called me that night to tell me he was still crying and she couldn’t calm him down, so I went over there to talk to him. I loved him, after all, and I didn’t want him to be miserable. I just couldn’t have him in my daycare any more if he was going to put me at risk like that.

As I said, kids are smart—they can understand stuff, but they often don’t realize the consequences of their actions at the time.

When I explained to him exactly what would have happened to me if the people at the school had not known me (and him, too, BTW) well enough to disbelieve his story, he was appalled. He hadn’t realized that I could have gotten into so much trouble just because he made up a story about me. In his mind, I was an adult who was in charge, not someone who could be destroyed by little old him.

Well, I didn’t let him come back the next day, because he needed to deal with the reality of how serious his lie had been, but he did come back the day after that, and continued in my daycare until I closed it 2 years later.

I still sit for his now 9-year-old sister for two weeks every August, in between the end of her summer activities and the start of school, and during the two-week winter break.

James graduates from junior high next Tuesday at 10:00 a.m. I will be there in the auditorium, clapping and crying alongside his mother, just as I was three years ago when he graduated from 6th grade.

My point is that children do lie sometimes; they sometimes do make up accusations to get adults (even adults they really love) into trouble when they are pissed off at them. And when a kid is corrected or prevented from doing what he wants to do, he can get pretty darned pissed off. If a kid can make a false accusation of physical abuse against an adult he loves as much as my young friend loves me, then you can just imagine what a kid might come up with to “punish” an adult he really dislikes.

And those accusations will be whatever the kid can think of that might show how mean or “bad” the adult is. Nowadays, kids learn about “bad touching” at a very early age, and they also see a lot of stuff on their parents’ cable TV channels, while their parents are ignoring what they watch. Kids are often “raised” by their peers, their older siblings, and older kids on the playground as much as or more than they are raised by the adults in their lives, so they hear about stuff that we might not realize they are hearing about.

Kids can and do make false accusations, and sometimes those false accusations are of a sexual nature.

Many kids are physically abused and many are sexually abused. My heart breaks for these children, and I feel horror and rage at the adults who do such things to them. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t a terrible and vicious thing when an innocent adult’s life is ruined by a false accusation.

When I look back on my 18 years as a daycare provider, I feel weak in the knees with retroactive fear. I did daycare so I could stay home while my kids were still kids. I ended my daycare the year my younger child graduated from high school. While I was running my daycare, all I thought about were the kids in my care and how best to take care of them. Until the incident with James, I never even thought about how risky the job could be, though I am well-educated and well informed enough to know such things. It just didn’t cross my mind.

But I only had that one incident, and it was quickly resolved. If I were teaching grade school, middle school, or high school these days, I would be very glad to have a video camera in my classroom—for my own protection. And I would never run a daycare now. I can’t believe I got through 18 years of it with only the one incident. I feel now as though I dodged a bunch of potential bullets I wasn’t even thinking of.

[proud2BlibKansan]

323. Thanks LostinVA

This is an issue that hits home with me big time. I have known too many children and adults victimized by predators and false accusations.

[yella_dawg]

203. Excuse Me?

What exactly do you mean by that comment?

[Evergreen Emerald]

253. Just because someone was aquitted does not mean he was innocent

It means that the charges cannot be proven. I know a number of people who were aquitted or past polys that years later were convicted of molestation of someone else.

[redqueen]

325. Yes - guilty people are acquitted more often than innocents are convicted.

Thanks for making that point clear.

[progmom]

2. we don't have equal punishments for juvenile crimes for a good reason

That being said, it sounds like your husband was put through the wringer and that's horrible. But the real villain sounds like the ex-wife...

[DistressedAmerican]

6. Maybe What We Need Is A Malicious Ex-Spouse Registry!

Just kidding!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

3. What kind of jury convicted him???

Seriously, if the kid said your husband was SLEEPING, how in the world could he have possibly done anything wrong in his sleep?

[redqueen]

5. We don't know the whole story.

And we certainly won't get an unbiased account from someone who's personally involved.

[whistle]

4. Where did that come from?

[trotsky]

7. I think your point is quite valid.

The mere accusation can be devastating - no other crime can really compare. And even if the problem isn't widespread, that's no excuse. It's not "widespread" that we have probably executed innocent people, but does that mean we shouldn't address that problem?

Rather than a registry, I'd say our justice system needs to come up with a better system - one where it is harder to file a false claim. I don't pretend to have any idea how that would work, and of course I certainly don't want anyone's legitimate claim to be denied.

I guess I'm just saying, you're right, it's a problem, but I have no idea what to do.

[seabeyond]

9. my niece is doing it to father now

she told father, if she didnt get to live with boyfriend at 16 in another state. she would make claim. she was picked up by cps, she accused and they are investigating. and they havent talked to family. she has been using sex for years. and brother is at their mecry. we shall see what they decide of his fate in all their wisdom, three states away, and a 16 year old that wants her way.

we are merely talking about a persons life, and his sons, but wtf

[Eloriel]

187. Hel - LO!!!!

Knock, knock, anybody in there?

she told father, if she didnt get to live with boyfriend at 16 in another state. she would make claim. she was picked up by cps, she accused and they are investigating. and they havent talked to family. she has been using sex for years. and brother is at their mecry.

Where do you suppose she LEARNED to "use sex" years ago?

Honey, I'm not a betting woman, but I'd bet you serious money this young woman has been sexually abused -- by someone. This type of behavior is just one indicator. Quite probably her own sex life is another.

[Occulus]

197. And she couldn't POSSIBLY have any "power issues",

could she?

:eyes:

You've NEVER heard of a woman making a false sexual harassment claim to get attention, or to get back at someone she doesn't like? That particular tale is as old as the hills.

I'm NOT saying all, or even a signifigant portion of women use sex in this manner. Far from it. However, it does happen, and it's precisely because of this idea that people who sexually abuse are themselves victims of abuse that we put blinders on when confronted by the idea that, in some cases, they really are lying about it.

"and they havent talked to family."

Funny how that happens. I was just going to add that CPS never spoke to the stepson's mom about the "abuse" in the case me and my husband have dealt with.

She. Never. Spoke. To. The. Authorities.

Ever. They took the stepson's words as if they had been spoken by God Himself.

[seabeyond]

198. hel lo knock knock

do i sound like a dumb bitch., i beg your pardon. no shit. yes it is one of the indicators, as oprah has told the world.

so. we have a dilema. "This type of behavior is just one indicator." there is the rub. they look at her, hear the story and say, well look at her. hello knock knock, bet you serious money. you know nothing of the story, this girl, her history, who she is, the family, who i am, how we live our lives or why she may use sexuality to get what she wants. just assume. and on this assumption, without any reference to another person, cause it puts the "child" in an uncomfortable position, willing to go after a man that may/maynot have done a thing, and ruin two other kids lives, that can easily be proven things are good.

it is all dismissed. she won. brother is at mercy.

because of this moment right here

she uses sex to manipulate and get what she want from males, knows how to use it, uses it and becomes the victim. exactly what she wants. i mean, a kid cannot lose on this. girls know.

i understand how hard it is for everyone to see. i understand how important it is to take claims seriously. how many cases are not reported, how females suppress it, how it fucks up their lives.

i am saying, who are you to assume i am a dumb shit instantly with out any of the facts. this is my problem with the professionals. they take exactly your stand

and you feel this is the proper handling

anyway, my take, brother will suffer repercussion. tis life. he and family will have to deal with it as it comes.

[Eloriel]

262. Listen, this is important

she uses sex to manipulate and get what she want from males, knows how to use it, uses it and becomes the victim. exactly what she wants. i mean, a kid cannot lose on this. girls know.

Girls do NOT know. Little girls and young women of 16 years of age are not BORN knowing this. IT IS TAUGHT TO THEM -- and taught to them by males. Sexual abuse is THE quickest, surest way. In fact, I know of no other.

[seabeyond]

292. you have an agenda, that is all it is and you want to win

it doesnt matter if you are wrong or right. you simply want to win. that is the issue i have been having on this board of late with many people. they have a position, and regardless of fact, or information, right or wrong, none of that matters. you just gotta win.

so you prosecute a man that hasnt done anything wrong. he is on that list. he can be vilified for all his life, but dammit, you won

you can go to bed, knowing you did good, you protected society, you protected my niece, you won

may have ruined some lives along the way but was well worth it, because after all who needs facts, they are irrelevent, because when on a mission the only important thing, is to win

and he is just a man. they are of course always at fault. they are always always guilty, because us girls, we dont do anything wrong. we are just the victims. and always it is the man

well the professions put about as much time and thought into as you. because after all, no girl would be a slut, unless, they were raped by a father or relative or friend. we just wouldnt do it, would we, being the good girls we innately are

[redqueen]

327. No, you're willfully ignoring what she's saying.

What she's saying is that young girls don't know from instinct how to use sexuality as a weapon, they're taught.

Your comment that this person had been doing it 'for years' seems to say that it's been going on since she was very young. It's one thing for an older girl to learn though the media or friends how to do this, it's another situation entirely when a younger girl exhibits these behavior.

Your sarcastic spew about 'good girls' and 'sluts' sickens me.

[seabeyond]

340. instinct how to use sexuality as a weapon, they're taught.

i beg to differ, i dont agree. and i will get to that

but let the slut and good girl sicken you, it is who we are. i am female. i have been raped. i had a father who respected me, and allowed me to trust my own self worth. i have seen male abuse, i watch it today. i see them do it in language, and in act. i live in friggin fuckin texas. i have a slut me., you dont? i am not lookin at the slut me sickened by it. it is neat and glorious and a part of who i am. i do not apologize for it. we female are certainly conditioned in the good girl thing. i know this. i was this for the first couple decades of my life. i had to let that go about 20, and figure it all out. how limiting it was. how harsh it was to me to cause me to be self destructive. i grew up in calif 70's 80's. i starved myself, i purged, i did all the hateful things to me, feeling a need for perfection and never obtainly. why i started smoking. why i did drugs. beating me up for not being perfect. for my life, i had to let go of being perfect

i have four nieces of all ages and have watched their journey in life. i have watched friends little girls walk life. not to mention all the boys classmates, that i get the opportunity to sit with, listen and watch. and one thing i have observed is how they are all unique

socially a 4-5 year old are exploring sexually. chelsey use to hump floor board of car. i would pretend i didnt notice. her exploration, her experience. boys will stick hands down pants. (now is this dirty, or our humanness) to suggest kids are not sexually aware isnt factually correct

the screw up today. we are giving our kids adult perception of sexuality, when they are at 4 year old, trying to figure that out, first with their body this is messing them up, this is where i protect them. others feel not important. i want their experience to be 4-6. this is how i am seeeing our little ones becoming sophicticated beyond there time. when they arent ready for it

i also see and know realtionship and the importance of father daughter relation, and the connection to how life would be in a girls later years, in finding a man, to this small period of 4-6 with father.

a girl does use manipulation of father. i did. i was princess, i think it is important. yet.......this can be a positive or a negative

look the bottom line. i could go on forever. i have spent my life and their life loving these people. i can do them better, than you ever can. you have to at least give me, trust me, have faith, that i have put time, energy, love, my life, it is what we do, what is important, life........in this child. equally in the father. in all these/my people

[redqueen]

343. No one said they weren't aware of their sexuality

Aware of how to use it as a weapon? That's another thing altogether.

Yes all children learn how to manipulate very early in life -- this isn't instinctive either, btw. However they don't learn how to manipulate using sexuality. That's something that's learned later in life or taught, as was pointed out.

I misread your comment about good girls and sluts... missed the sarcasm, sorry. I would be sickened by any woman who said girls are either 'good' or 'sluts' seriously. I see now you were being sarcastic.

[ultraist]

367. sorry seabeyond...

But excessive masturbation or public displays of masturbation is also an indicator of sexual abuse.

Yes, children DO explore and if the parent is teaching the child appropriate boundaries and respecting the child's boundaries, they will tell the child that masturbation is to be done in private. Allowing a child to publicly masturbate (in your car, in front of you) is NOT teaching the child appropriate boundaries.

Would you want your niece, Chelsey to have gone to school thinking it was OK to masturbate in class? Or, should she have been taught that she should do that in private?

It's up to the PARENTS and ADULTS involved in children's lives to teach them appropriate boundaries. Many children don't have to be told directly, but simply learn through modeling.

If a child has not been taught appropriate boundaries, it is the fault of the ADULTS. If the child is exhibiting a lot of inappropriate behaviors, LOOK BEYOND the child to the adults. SOMETHING is awry.

[seabeyond]

369. excessive masturbation or public displays of masturbation

a couple times does not make it excessive firstly. secondly, was pretty private in her little four year old mind. back of car, by herself, aunt and mom chatting in the front seat. all of three or four rubbing the crotch on a hump

so there we go, we dont have to pin molestation on the girl at four., unless.......it just makes the story better.

chelsey didnt need to be taught, where to masterbate. (i dont know if i even catagorized it as that casue at that age, i dont see it as masterbating, just exploring, playing with body) my parents i am sure without my knowledge saw me do these things, and they didnt need to discuss it with me. but as a mom if you want to go thru all that fine. no as a parent, i dont feel the need to discuss it with her. there were no indications whatsoever she was going beyond natural. so i left it to natural.

gosh ultraist, in order to give me all that advice on parenting, assuming i know nothing?, you had to create a story, that wasnt told in my original post. you may warrant this as inaapropriate behavior. i on the other hand disagree. and i was comfortable in my handling of the situation.

[ultraist]

373. I didn't assume you "know nothing"

"playing with body" (crotch), "rubbing crotch on a hump" IS masturbating. And yes, masturbating is natural but my point stands, it is up to the ADULTS to teach the child to do this in private. In a car, with four or five other people is NOT in private. Letting it go on, sends the message that it is OK to masturabate anywhere around other people. That is NOT appropriate.

What story did I create? I simply stated that allowing a child to masturbate in your car, in front of you and others is not appropriate. Do you tell your kids not to pick their noses in public? Do you tell your kids not to scratch their crotch in public? I'm sure you do. Why is this any different? Children are not born knowing what is appropriate. They have to be socialized. If they don't pick up how to be civilized through modeling, they need to be told.

[seabeyond]

376. four or five other people is NOT in private

well i didnt say four or five people now, did i. i said mom and me in front

[ultraist]

397. In front of two other people is also not "in private"

I misunderstood your line "all of three or four rubbing the crotch on a hump" to mean 3 or 4 children in the backseat.

Regardless, why do you let children masturbate in your presence? Don't you think they should be taught to do this in private?

[seabeyond]

399. she wasnt in front, she was behind. and in a four year old brain

with eyes in front of a persons head, i can totally see how she could feel she was having a private moment

now, we have really hashed this one out. but then none of that matters because i have already stated, she was aware of private, was simple exploration, and was no kind of obsessive behavior. a moment in her life i didnt feel we needed to make a big deal about



why do you let children masturbate in your presence?

and this, this is simply sounding sick.

really i am at a loss why you want to create this picture even though it is pretty clear it is not.

ah yes, to win

[OldLeftieLawyer]

283. Dead right on with that theory

Inappropriate seductive behavior - and this qualifies - is always an indicate of sexual abuse.

[seabeyond]

294. always ....always....always

well hey, lets go to the high school and round the girls up. lets find out who is abusing so many of our jr high and high school girls since it is always

i am now flabbergasted.

wow

well i guess you all convinced, my brother raped his daughter, chelsey can be the victim once agian. boy yawl are smart

and i thought i knew better, knowing the circumstance, the people involved. silly me

this attitude, is why i can so easily walk away from the democratic party. right here. the arrogance

[seabeyond]

295. really you two are in jest right

you are just razzing me right. cause i am pretty damn sure no serious thinking adult would come to these conclusions without knowing shit. so it has to be the internet thing, where people like to play with other people. i dont know a single reasoned adult, that if they wanted to draw a conclusion, wouldnt get a whole lot more information. before concluding something so serious as a child being molested by her father. a caring intelligent adult just wouldnt be so irresponsible

[redqueen]

333. She pointed out that it's an indicator. Which it damn well is.

She didn't say your brother was guilty.

Geezaloo, did you even read the frickin post?

[seabeyond]

341. hel lo knock knoc are you in there....

i fuckin know it is an indicator. of course i do. i know how they arent reported. i know how men fuck up. i know how they do wrong. i know how stories are told in brains, changing reality, but becomes new reality

would you be bothered, hel lo.....knock knock, anyone in there

are you seriously calling me on this, that i may be offended.

hel loooooooo

i can be a bitch too. be honest about women. and our non perfections. doesnt hurt me. we are bitches if we arent getting our way

hellll llloooo

see something i perfectly see my niece doing to me, or rolling eyes, when i say something as an adult with experience

hel lo my ass

[redqueen]

344. I'm ignoring your 'hello knock knock' crap.

And just getting ot hte point:

"no serious thinking adult would come to these conclusions without knowing shit. so it has to be the internet thing, where people like to play with other people. i dont know a single reasoned adult, that if they wanted to draw a conclusion, wouldnt get a whole lot more information. before concluding something so serious as a child being molested by her father. a caring intelligent adult just wouldnt be so irresponsible"

Who came to what conclusions? All they did was point out that her behavior is an indicator.

That's not a frickin conclusion, get it?

Honestly...

[seabeyond]

346. defend, at all cost, defend, hey ok. n.t

[redqueen]

349. No, not defend.

Demand responsibility.

You put yourself up on a cross because a couple of people made an observation you didn't like.

[seabeyond]

352. no that is your interpretation. lets be real n/t

[redqueen]

356. ahahhahahahaahaahaha

Okay... nobody accused your brother or whomever of anything, yet it's only my 'interpretation' that you accused others on this thread of drawing conclusions that they didn't draw.

Okay... fine... whatever.

:rofl:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

296. Leave the Democratic party because

people have opinions and experiences and professional training different from yours?

Wow.

[seabeyond]

297. no, because you decide how a picture is suppose to look

and if it doesnt it is wrong. it cannot be. because you get a good cause like protect a child, and then fight and struggle and get it in place. and then problems arise, but there is no way in hell to get anyone to admit a problem, let alone recognize and try to resolve, cause you are too busy protecting the project making damn sure nothing slights it for fear of losing it.

there is a problem in the system

there is a problem in the system with men going to court trying to get custody of kids

there is a problem with a people that will say a mother does not love their child cause they smoke. that they dont deserve those kids. what kind of audacity does it take for a fellow human being to say to me because i smoke i do not love my children. am i not suppose to be offended. the republicans say i am not christian if i vote kerry. i say i am offended. they say you are, why? hell yes i am

you dont know this situation, you dont know me, and how much information i have and know about child abuse. but, you have decided brother is guilty and niece is innocent. and i dont know shit. and you dont know anything about the situation. you ask me to buy your story, when i know it isnt true. same as a repug. rove bush

what is wrong with people today. it is premeating out of every corner of this friggin society

[muriel_volestrangler]

303. You're right, seabeyond - no-one on DU has enough information

to form a meaningful opinion about the specific cases in either your or the OP's situations. We can generalise about what we know from court reports, or professional involvement in other cases, but it's absurd to think we can draw conclusions about individuals from a few words on the internet.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

316. The system works far better than you might think

I would urge you to get involved in the system, either as a volunteer or as a student, and you'd be surprised at how carefully and systematically and conscientiously the rights of the accused are protected.

You'd be surprised at the awful burden the accuser has to bear in order to bring these charges.

You'd also be surprised if you learned what "burden of proof" means and how it applies to these matters.

It's one thing to have opinions. That's grand, and that's the American way, especially at DU. And I respect those opinions.

But, it's another thing entirely to believe that your opinions are reality or that they are fact.

I asked nothing of you - "to buy (my) story"? - so how about returning the respect I have given you and behaving in a civil manner? That, I believe, might be a start to a better society, the one that currently seems not to meet your standards.

[seabeyond]

331. i use to think like you. but then i hadnt experienced the system

i trusted it. i figured the people would take the time. i thought they did think. i assumed that when talking to any of these people. last three years, i have had a handful of of people in the system. and i see i was wrong. so very fuckin wrong. and then i started listening, watching, seeing, learning. so here you are assuming i dont know. as i am sitting here abosutely in the experience and participation of it.

so right there you are off

further, i think if you would look at the increase in prisoners, thru out nation, non violent crime. the inactment and interpretation now a days, speedy trial, my ass. nah. i have been in it.

a brother fighting for custody. we waited for mama to accuse molestation. i just dont think she could get daughter to tell story. she did convince daughter to tell others. i watched this little girl about 6 years being played in this. and i sat in awe, watching a judge say out loud to a court of people. look, this is a really really bad mom, i mean lets admit she just isnt that good. but the kid gets fed and isnt hit. (dirty, almost flunked kindergarten,) but not "abused". the father is good. will be good for girl to be with father on breaks. now mom is bad but not that bad, and a girl needs the mom. so we award.......

so i beg to differ with you in trustin the reasonableness of our courts.

the girl is 12 now. she has finally been given to father, after years of trauma and drama, a kidnapping, and dumping girl in home for troubled kids, cause mom wanted to go to the beach, not to mention the adhd drugs for years, .......to keep the kid calm and easy

but we will heal her now, and acknowledge her past pain. and validate who she is, all that she is, even that afraid, sad child. and build her confidence in self and world. and we will do it honestly

are you challenging me in my ability to see in life, cause i dont mind

kinda just like we see bush corruption, theft, lie, ....and we think, surely the people will call lhim on it. and then in amazement and awe, lol that they support him

[OldLeftieLawyer]

364. Sorry

I tried reading some of what your wrote, and I just didn't understand it.

What I did glean, though, was that you're troubled about some episode.

I hope it gets better for you.

[ultraist]

353. Great advice OldLeftieLawyer

I second that. Anyone who doubts that the rights of the accused are not protected should GO VOLUNTEER for their local county Guardian Ad Litem's office!

Having volunteered myself for a Guardian ad litem for a sexual abuse case, I can assure any of those who are pushing for more protection of the rights of the accused, that, as OLL stated, "the rights of the accused are protected" both "systematically and conscientiously."

In the case I volunteered for, the little girl's mother, the little girl, her therapist, her Guardian ad litem, her pediatrician, and an expert witness all believed the little girl, YET, the father was never criminally charged. He was however court ordered to have only supervised visits until the child was 16. The record was SEALED, per his attorney's request.

This child was put through the ringer. The Guardian ad litem said this case was TYPICAL.

I also did my internship at Child Protective Services and in 99% of the sexual abuse cases, the perps were NOT criminally charged, even when there was a substantial amount of physical evidence (STD, pregnancy, vaginal tears, etc). MOST RELATIVES ARE NOT CHARGED CRIMINALLY in sexual abuse cases.

I'm sure this varies somewhat from state to state, but generally, our society is far too lenient on child molestors.

[seabeyond]

359. if we cannot defend the right of minority

what does this make this party

a lot of cases on rape are not reported.
a lot of child molestation is not convicted

the falsely accused are in the minority

as a democrat, isnt the view that for society, it is our obligation to protect even those few, the minority, from the mass

isnt that important to us, as a society.

we must demand that the right do it. and what the democratic party is all about. the party of the people. but to not do it in this circumstance, is to be a hypocrit

now this protection doesnt just come in courts. where it really grows in honesty, and purity, and benefit, is when it is in my mind.

and i dont feel the interaction in this thread is reflective of that

[ultraist]

375. We DO protect the rights of the accused

Democrats do support fair trials, humane treatment of prisoners, and less punitive measures/sentences than the Republicans support.

I really don't think your point about Democrats holds any water.

Do you think that the word of the child is taken as truth, with no investigation? Whether it be a CPS case or a court case (family or criminal) they look at all of the facts. They don't just automatically "believe the child."

[seabeyond]

298. no one knows if this womans husband molested the son

no one knows. and that is the fact that i have. no one knows. and look at the comments. on not knowing, what people were willing and eagerly saying. what assumptions. i gotta ask, is this truly how yawl walk life, cause it has to be f*ed. you have to be putting foot in mouth all the time. apologizing all the time. or do we just do this on internet. and really in the real world we dont live this way

[OldLeftieLawyer]

317. In the matter of the law,

there is reasonable doubt and other concepts. There is evidence, and there is a system that works far better than anything else in the world.

You might find fault with it, and that's your prerogative.

However, it is the real world, like it or not, and your objection to it doesn't change one damn thing. The system protects far more children than it punishes innocent defendants. Those are good statistics, as far as I'm concerned.

If, however, you've come up with a better system, I'd love to see it.

[seabeyond]

348. it is the real world, like it or not,

firstly not say a stupid ass thing like this that suggest we just say, this is it, all we can do. assume we can always be better than this. not give up would be some suggestion. how to solve

well, wtf...........i will throw one out there

listen

[OldLeftieLawyer]

362. I like my reality better than yours

For one thing, it's coherent ...............

[seabeyond]

363. but limited. safe n/t

[OldLeftieLawyer]

391. Not at all

Your unintelligible posting limits you, in that your ideas are not put forth. And that's unfortunate.

[redqueen]

335. Who said they knew?

Really, where did you read that?

Or are you setting up strawmen and then knocking them oh so dramatically down, then claiming the whole party is in danger of losing you over these strawmen?

DRAMA!

[redqueen]

330. How exactly is this about the Democratic party?

You take a disagreement with a few people here and turn it into some huge problem with the party?

You seriously don't think any republicans share this view?

[seabeyond]

300. for clarity, i misspoke

she has been using sex for years

she has been using her sexuality, not sex

[redqueen]

336. In order to use sexuality

one has to understand it.

How old was she when she started using it?

[seabeyond]

351. 12 years old seems to be the age with girls

i have a 12 year old niece living with me now. i am watching her. she is reminding me of me at 12. i did the same. i have been getting the feel that 12 is asically we are feeling out different roles we want to be.

it was about 12 i saw her starting to play it. it was 12 i started talking to the mom and father and grandad. telling them to call her on it. was 12 i walked out on the patio and told her, knock it off, (rollingeyes) i be girl, i can see what you are doing. not gonna get away with it, with me.

i remember my mom doing the same about that age.

then i watched her over the years, would say things and get a rolled eye. she didnt respect listen or want it from me, so i can do no more. it is there if she wants, always, she has to be willing to receive. cant mae her take the love

but, yes, in observation, it is looking like 12 is a pretty important time for a girl

and of course there are other things that factor into this. this is a mere piece

[Mr.Green93]

11. Put it on their

Permanent Record.

[progmom]

17. yeah - you could list it on their

national ID! :bounce:

[libertypirate]

12. These lists are used to hide the real crimes of abuse against

children...

Take a look into "The Franklin Cover-up". I think the acusers often pick someone to blame, because they have been threatened and can't acuse who's abusing them. It might be the only logical way they can get out of it. To blame someone that is innocent. It is in no way the right thing to do, but I think it is a survival instinct.

The Franklin case gives you a clue to how sick these perverts are. It might also clue you into to the behavior of those adults who support such behavior.

An example is Jim West the mayor of Spokane, who was just outed. Thirty years of acusatory rummors and no one put his ass on a list. He looks like the perfect citizen but the reality is he is a sick bastard. It doesn't make sense what these people do, but they like to make the world think that the "type" who does is not like them.

[Megahurtz]

20. I agree.

This has been done many times.

[Occulus]

13. Ok, now that I've been called 'idiotic' over this,

How idiotic would it be if it was your child doing the accusing?

I don't buy the 'juvenile crime' argument in this case, because the repercussions go FAR beyone the status of the child being a child. That is, the ramifications of such false accusations last a lifetime.

As to how rampant this problem is, once is too often. And I say again- it is FAR too easy to get someone wrongfully convicted of these crimes.

As to getting an unbiased account of what happened to my husband, I only have the court transcripts to go on; we weren't even together at the time it happened to him. It wasn't a jury tril- his "defense attorney", after not contacting any of his witnesses and taking $20K for the defense, wimped out and "counseled" him to plead guilty.

If the registry had not just gone into effect prior to his court hearing, the case probably would have been tossed out of court. That doesn't change the fact that he's facing a lifetime of stigmatization and social and professional rejection for something that was nothing at all.

Also, he's legally forbidden from doing any of the jobs he trained for prior to this happening.

It's sad all around.

[redqueen]

19. I called the SUGGESTION idiotic.

Trying to personalize it why? Sympathy?

If my child made an accusation I would protect them, not the accused. That's just how I think.

You weren't even there, but you know the kid is lying. Okay.

How old was he when he made the testimony? Children can be quite susceptible to stress, you know.

Do you have kids?

[forgethell]

29. Kids can be quite

susceptible to stress. You said it. Kids do lie. Are you trying to justify sending an innocent person to prison for a very long time? On no evidence other than the word of a child who has been subjected to pressure by incompetent social workers and psychologists, or to advance the career of a monster like Janet Reno?

[redqueen]

32. Putting words in my mouth?

Why?

I'm not justifying anything. I'm simply stating that this child's testimony that the abuse happpend while the accused was asleep may have had some kind of explanation other than it being a lie.

It's not my call about evidence, that's up to the judge & jury.

[forgethell]

38. Still, don't you

think that the accused, any accused, is entitled to the presumption of innocence? If the testimony doesn't make sense, then the accused should be found innocent. Don't you think??

[redqueen]

42. Did I ever indicate that I didn't?

Where is this coming from?

[forgethell]

47. I'm just asking.

It just seemed to me that you weren't overly concerned with the presumption of innocence, the golden thread that runs through English jurisprudence, as Rumpole would say.

If you say I've misinterpreted some of your remarks, that's good enough for me.

[LisaL]

45. Yet the step son is accused of lying by the new wife, and

you don't think there should be a presumption of innocence for him? Especially considering there actually was a conviction in this case, and it ain't the step son who was convicted.

[forgethell]

56. Well, no, because

1) We are not in a court of law, so it doesn't apply.

2) I have no knowledge of this case other than what I'm reading, same as you. Further, I have no interest in this case as an individual case. It makes no difference to me whether she has stated the true facts, the facts as she knows them, or a complete falsehood.

3) From instances that I am personally knowledgeable about, I do know that women and children can lie right along with the men, and that there is a presumption out there among many that they don't lie about such things. Bullshit. In other words, my interest, and my argument, is generic rather than specific.

People that abuse the legal process should be punished.

[LisaL]

60. We are not in the court of law, so why should it apply to

the alleged molester but not the child?
:eyes:
The facts as she stated them is that she married a man who apparently plead guilty to molestation, which occurred before she even met him. Well, excuse me, if I am going to take her allegations that her step son is a liar with a grain of salt-and that I am not screaming to put the boy in registry, considering the situation.

[forgethell]

80. As I said,

I have no interest in the case as an individual case. You did read my entire post, did you not? :eyes: You didn't?! Shame on you!:grr:

Still, the point is a good one. There should be some punishment for kids who lie about this. Maybe not the very youngest, but at least those twelve and older. They should certainly know better.

As this would be an ex post facto law, it wouldn't affect her stepson at all.

However, you do have one good point. I would never plead guilty to anything that I hadn't done. I would rather spend 20 years in prison with my self-respect intact, than get probation without it.

[Occulus]

142. The registry was ex post facto for my husband.

Yet it was included in his punishment. It was one of the (unsuccessful) arguments used against this law shortly after it was passed.

The Michigan registry, as it was and is implemented, is Unconstitutional. Now get a court to overturn it.

Suuuurrrre.

Being alive and on probation and on the registry is far preferable to being a convicted child sex offender in a state prison. For one thing, you'll stay alive a LOT longer pleading guilty than you would behind bars.

In his case, his self-respect has been destroyed regardless. He's an empty shell of a man, now.

It's sad.

[forgethell]

152. I really feel for you and him

I still couldn't plead guilty to something I hadn't done. We all make different choices.

[Eloriel]

200. One problem, forgethell

There should be some punishment for kids who lie about this.

How the HELL are you going to know? This just boggles my mind. These crimes occur IN PRIVATE and the victims are THREATENED with dire things -- their own deaths, the deaths of their parents, etc., etc. -- if they tell. How the HELL are you going to know when a child is lying?

Will you also advocate harsher punishment for predators who initially lied about it?

Egads, I hope you're nowhere near the legal system.

[forgethell]

312. Bullshit!

It should be investigated like any other crime. How do they tell any criminal is lying? There are interrogation methods. I'm sure some could be developed for these cases.

Just for the record, I'm not saying that failure to obtain a rape conviction should result in a charge of the "victime" lying. I'm saying that when there is evidence of lying, it should be pursued.

[redqueen]

338. Interrogation methods?

I wish I could laugh, but this shit just isn't funny.

Yeah, evidence I'm all for. If you knew anything about these situations, you'd realize there hardly ever is.

[forgethell]

339. Then there should be no convictions.

What would you call it, then, if not "interrogation". Are you so biased as to think I meant "torture". What do they call it when the police question you?

[redqueen]

345. No convictions without evidence.

Nice! You're really sealing your case here.

And no I didn't think you meant torture. I jsut think you're either oblivious or... nevermind... if you think these women and children aren't interrogated enough already.

*sigh*

[forgethell]

354. Well, now, actually,

I have never said that. I've noticed people on this board tend to make a lot of assumptions.

Let me restate my position a little more clearly.

1) I think there should be punishments for false accusations. Even for children above the age of twelve,especially if they were not coached by an adult, but did it for malicious reasons of their own. Any false accusations, not limited to rape, child abuse, or sexual harassment.

2) I am not necessarily in favor of a registry. I haven't said anything against it, either. As a philosophical point, though, I disagree with them, even for convicted sex offenders. When you've paid your debt to society, you've paid your debt to society. Why are they letting these creeps out, anyway? Why don't the laws keep them behind bars for life?

2) The "fact" that only 2% of accusations are false does not make this a non-serious problem.

3) I believe that it is important to protect the rights of the accused in all cases. Especially in one where there is little or no evidence. Even if this makes it hard for victims to come forth. I really don't sympathize too much with cowards. It's not just about the individual victim, it's about other women who could be harmed if the victim fails to pursue this in court.

4) Once convicted, while I think the cases should be re-considered if the victim recants, or procedures were not followed, or new evidence emerges, I think the perp should be locked away for good. In fact, in the case of forcible rape, I think the perp should be hanged, not to put too fine a point on it.

I hope this clarifies my position for you. I would be happy to entertain any questions. However, you might PM me if you have them. When I go off-line today, I will not be back 'till Tuesday. Y'all can all take a holiday.

[redqueen]

357. You just said there should be no convictions without evidence.

Did you not?

And cowards? You call these women cowards?

Don't worry, I won't be PMing you about jack fucking shit.

[forgethell]

366. So you think

there should be convictions without evidence? OK.

[ultraist]

360. They DO interview the accuser

The accuser is interviewed by third parties AND by a professional therapist (child psychologist or psychiatrist). They do NOT just go on the word of the child. They DO investigate and the experts provide their opinions to the court. They also interview ADULTS involved in the child's life, such as the teacher, the doctor, neighbors, etc.

Why on EARTH would you think they would give a child's word so much power without fully reviewing ALL OF THE FACTS in the case? Get real. NO COURT case is conducted in the way you are implying.

Furthermore, MOST sexual abuse cases that involve relatives do NOT go to criminal court. They are usually handled through CPS and the family courts.

[forgethell]

368. That's good.

However, my opinion of "therapists" is not much higher than my opinion of lawyers. Remember the one who smothered a child while putting it through some kind of "rebirthing" process so it would "bond" with its new mother. This was after it had been taken from its true mother. They wrapped it in a carpet, and when it screamed that it couldn't breathe, they just told it to try harder.

[ultraist]

395. Sorry, not all professionals are "bad"

There are reputable psychologists and lawyers. Get real.

Your exception to the rule examples don't fly. I don't think the "rebirthing" nut was a licensed child psychologist, was she?

Who should interview the child and conduct the investigation, if not professionals? Uneducated and untrained people? :eyes:

[Occulus]

120. he

I'm a he. A gay he, don't ya know.

The little girl child- unconnected to the accusations- was used as a lever against the guy I'm talking about.

There were no abuse allegations involved with their daughter, only the stepson. Telling.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

287. Did you just post what I think you posted?

Your SO is gay - he was married to a woman - the abuse allegations came from the stepson and NOT the stepdaughter?

Oh, man. You might want not to repeat that.

[Eloriel]

195. Once again: Perps lie 100% of the time, children less than 2%

From instances that I am personally knowledgeable about, I do know that women and children can lie right along with the men, and that there is a presumption out there among many that they don't lie about such things.

Actually, the "presumption" is just the opposite -- that women and children ARE lying, filing false reports about sex offenses against them. Just as you're trying to promote. Whether you believe it or not, you are aiding and abetting perpetrators by spreading your mythology on this subject.

[forgethell]

329. Innocent people, however,

lie like dogs, don't they?

[Occulus]

52. My mistake.

But it *is* personal. Who's to say some dumbass with a baseball bat and a bone to pick won't mistake me for him when the guy comes to mete out some "justice" to an offender?

The kid didn't lie, exactly; he said on the record precisely what happened. The lie is that what happened was a legitimate offense.

The child was apparently coached as to what exactly constitutes an offense by his mother and grandmother, both of whom wanted my husband out of the house. Incidentally, she got the house, cars, credit cards, clothing, electronics, and in fact literally everything but the shit, jeans, shoes, socks, and underwear that my husband was wearing at the time.

No, I do not- and will not- have kids. Besides, I'm gay, and there's a subtle push to keep gays from having kids at all going on right now. If those people win out, they'll make sure I never do, even if I wanted any.

The question of whether I have children is irrelevant to the question of whether kids who lie about being sexually abused deserve to be punished equally. I would think a 'juvenile liar's registry' (/snark) would wake a lot of people up.

[redqueen]

70. I agree the registry is a problem.

However you wouldn't like my solution at all. Lifetime incarceration for the first offense. I don't believe that offenders will keep offending, but I do believe they never stop having the impulses that led them to offend in the first place.

If it can be proven that relatives lied and coached this child, then by all means punish them, not the child.

The only reason I asked about children is that I would never under any circumstances allow my children to be unattended around anyone who had been convicted of a sex crime involving a child. This stuff is way way WAY more common than most seem to want to realize.

[Occulus]

But kids are a lot smarter than most adults realize.

The difficulty, in my husband's case, is that there is no recourse now. Too much time has elapsed, and (I may be wrong about this, but we checked very carefully) sex offense convictions cannot be expunged in MI in any case.

So, a false accusation (or pleading guilty to a false charge because you're afraid of going into a system where child molesters are treated as lower than serial killers, and get offed quite regularly in the Big House) is a truly life-destroying event- something I know from personal experience.

So, how can we keep kids from lying about it to get "mean mommy" or "mean daddy" out of the house?

[redqueen]

91. Raise them to be honest?

There are plenty of problems that we don't have solutions for right now.

How do we keep kids from killing themselves?

How do we keep men from killing their wives / girlfriends / families when they lose their minds?

How do we keep men from raping their dates?

[Pithlet]

24. I have a big problem with this:

"I don't buy the 'juvenile crime' argument in this case, because the repercussions go FAR beyone the status of the child being a child. That is, the ramifications of such false accusations last a lifetime."

That is exactly the argument that right wingers use as justification to punish children as adults.

Children aren't adults. They don't think like adults. They don't behave like adults. They don't reason like adults. They should not be punished as adults.

Children don't just accuse out of the blue. False accusations are often coerced by other adults with an ax to grind. Punishing children for false accusations will only ensure that real victims will be terrified to come forth. Is that what you want?

[Occulus]

64. So then why,

when a child comes back and says it didn't really happen, that statement is discounted?

I don't really have an answer; I was only trying to point out that false accusations, for these crimes in particular, aren't ever really treated as 'false', and even if the child is found to be lying and the case is thrown out, the accused will still face a stigma, simply for having been accused.

Someone falsely accused of, say, murder, can] be found to have never been involved, and people will realize this, especially is the real killer was caught. However, for sex offenses, well, people tend to think there must have been "something" there to begin with. It's very amorphous, and I for one have a very big problem with that.

Now consider what it's like to have never commited a sex offense, but to be accused, tried, and convicted of having done so. It's devastating. I hope it never, ever happens to anyone I know... and I'll be there for them if it does.

[redqueen]

75. That's not true at all.

Those accused and acuitted during trial of murder always have a shadow over them. Only if hard they're convicted, then evidence surfaces later which exonerates them do they escape that cloud of suspicion.

[Pithlet]

78. I have all the sympathy in the world

for someone who was falsely accused. And, when that happens, it should be investigated fully. I in no way think that false accusations of sexual abuse should be ignored. I just find the idea of punishing the child morally repugnant, and serves justice not at all.

I certainly wouldn't want it to happen to me or anyone I know. But, punishing children and creating such an awful registry won't stop it from happening.

[blondeatlast]

227. All it will do is make it even harder for children who really are abused

to want to come forward.

How many parents, knowing that their child is subject to such a thing, would encourage them to come forth with their experiences?

I'll protect my kid in any case--and if it happened, I'd tell him that we would get him some quality counseling, love him even more if possible--but NOT to spread his story around.

[LisaL]

143. But you said yourself that whatever was alleged by the child

did happen in your husband's case. Only it shouldn't have been considered a crime. While I agree it doesn't sound like a crime whatsoever, where are the false accusations? There are none in your husband's case that I can see.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

288. Kids are bad liars, don't forget that

Kids don't hold up well under questioning, and unless you've got a sociopathic child - and that would have shown up in a variety of other ways before a scenario like this - kids can't keep on lying when the pressure is put on. They get scared, and even if they try to dig in, they get screwed up.

They're children. Their brains aren't fully formed. They don't understand consequences, and, in my experience as a mother and as a guardian ad litem for abused children, they sometimes have to be almost badgered to tell the truth about abuse. It doesn't come easily.

There's something here that's being overlooked, and that is that only one side of the matter has been "reviewed" by kgfnally. You can look all you want at records and transcripts and you can trust your lover to the end of time, but unless you knew the people and were involved in the process, I'd say you're blowing smoke here.

[LisaL]

30. You said you husband's step son lied?

Yet your husband plead guilty? And you want to put step son into some sort of registry? I am sorry, but that sounds pretty strange to me.
If your husband plead guilty, then in the eyes of the law, the step son told the truth and was a victim of abuse. How do you propose victims of child abuse be put in a registry?

[Occulus]

72. The kid wasn't abused.

Look, HE lied, the lawyer for the accused told the accused he was facing up to 30 in Jackson State Penn, and he pled guilty so he could retain joint custody of his daughter. The fact that he did in fact retain custody and received probation for three years (the registry status was grandfathered in AFTER his conviction- ex post facto, ya know?) should tell you something of what the judge thought of his case. It was, and remains, the lightest sentence for any such crime any of the lawyers we have spoken to have ever seen.

Further, his stepson testified on the stand- and I have this from the transcripts, which I have read- that the accused was asleep at the time of the offense.

Yes, the case should have been tossed right then. This, however, was immediately after an election, and immediately after the registry was put into place. They needed examples of why the law was necessary, and his case was one of four or five that same day.

[LisaL]

124. I am really is very confused.

Your husband plead guilty because the step son alleged the husband abused him while the husband was sleeping?
I am sorry, but the way you describe the alleged crime, it's hard to believe your husband was afraid he would be convicted, if all that was alleged is that he committed a crime while in his sleep.

[HuckleB]

250. That makes two of us.

It's incredibly difficult for a kid, much less a kid and an adult to maintain a consistent story, if it's made up. And the whole asleep thing is just bizarre.

[Sapphire Blue]

251. 3

The husband/stepfather plead guilty

There was no trial

The stepson testified on the stand

If the husband/stepfather plead guilty and there was no trial, what stand did the stepson testify on? The piano stand? And what were the transcripts from?

Being convicted of molesting stepson wouldn't affect custody of the stepfather's own child, so why would he unnecessarily plead guilty if he wasn't guilty?

A 'liar's registry' would serve no purpose other than to intimidate already frightened victims of sexual abuse into not coming forward... furthering the abuse of the victim. This is atrocious.

[ultraist]

370. Yep!

It's very easy to break through a child's lie. Any parent knows this. By simply asking a few questions or asking the same question in different ways, it doesn't take much to get to the truth. We all have experienced this with our children. It doesn't take much to outsmart a 12 year old.

One not need be an expert in interviewing or interrogation to get to the truth when dealing with children. Courts do not rely soley on the word of the child. They have experts interview the child and look at all of the evidence.

[nonconformist]

386. "the lightest sentence for any such crime"

Then you should be thankful, not bitter. He pleaded guilty after all. He could still be in jail, and according to this he didn't spend a day behind bars, only probation.

[lukasahero]

68. I'm really, really sorry to say this but

your husband sounds just like my ex-husband who "didn't" beat up his old girlfriend but pleased guilty and went to domestic violence counseling ordered by the court anyway because his "lousy" lawyer told him he should. Guess what? I married him and now I'm the survivor of an abusive marriage.

It's probably not my place to say this but I really felt I had to. Sorry.

What jobs was he trained in that he can't do now?

[Occulus]

84. Truck driving, private investigations, and armed security.

I've been living with him for five years and I can say with absolute conviction- pardon the pun- that he never had ANY sexual interest in children. He's bloody scared of kids now. He hardly ever even goes out of the house, because of what's going on with the registry here.

I fully expect a knock on the door from someone confirming that a "sexual predator" lives here. There are also those who would condemn ME for living with him.

It's a sick, sad situation, and I'm furious that there's nothing I can do. Were a child to disappear from our apartment complex, *I* would get questioned too, because I'm associated with him. I don't need, or deserve, that kind of scrutiny.

[Divameow77]

191. If you are so concerned about what "might" happen

to you because you live with this person, then don't.

If he was falsly accused of that, it's horrible, I can sympathize, my husband's ex-girlfriend accused him of doing things to their son, but he was lucky his son told the police that his mother told him to say those things. Guess what nothing happened to her.

[Occulus]

238. Would you like it if I abandoned him? What if it was you?

Geez....

"If you are so concerned about what "might" happen to you because you live with this person, then don't."

What am I to do? I'm unsympathetic to REAL abuse victims for bringing it up on the one hand; on the other, I'm not "supposed" to have sympathy for the one who pled guilty to something that, by all rights, shouldn't have risen to the level of abuse. Maybe I should just flip a coin, or something.

Are you REALLY saying I should be okay with having my address on the sex offender's registry even though I've never done anything to appear on the registry myself? Should simply living at the same location make me suspect in some way?

I should tolerate the possibility that someone might come out of the woods with a baseball bat to inflict justice on him, only to knock the shit out of me by mistake? Maybe kill me because he thought he was getting the guy who IS on the registry?

Did I read your post correctly?

[Eloriel]

192. He plead guilty? And you're mad at the child. I see.

I hate to tell you this, but this isn't sounding so good for your husband's side.

And I say again- it is FAR too easy to get someone wrongfully convicted of these crimes.

That's JUST not true. Maybe it is/was true in that particular venue or that time, or whatever --- OR IF HE PLEADS GUILTY!!!!!!!!, but believe me, these things are NOT easy to try or win. That's precisely why most perps, even if identified, don't get tried. There's hardly ever any evidence beyond the child's testimony and sometimes the testimony of therapists who've assessed and/or treated the child.

I'll say it again, I hope to hell he's innocent, but this is smelling worse and worse to me, and this comment doesn't help:

Also, he's legally forbidden from doing any of the jobs he trained for prior to this happening.

Did you know about his conviction before you married him?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

284. Juvenile court records are sealed

So your notion is founded in an unrealistic hope. There's no way anything about any child involved in any legal matter is going to be made public.

Sounds like your husband was victimized by everyone, from his stepson to his ex-wife to his attorney, to, well, everyone he's ever met - except for you.

It's good he has you in his corner. It's good you and he are in love. That means in a lot in this difficult world.

[redqueen]

14. Just a comment - molestation is far more common than false accusations.

This is rather like asking how do we deal with women who make false accusations of rape.

Way to focus on the most pressing problem.

[forgethell]

23. Both problems need to

be focused on. It's not an either/or proposition.

[redqueen]

35. I didn't say it was.

However I'm always shocked at how some people can look at a sinkhole in their back yard and rant about the hedges that need trimming.

[forgethell]

88. And I am amazed by

those that fix the sinkhole and let rats nest in their overgrown hedges.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

289. Sort of like people flipping out ...........

.......... over a Senate filibuster rule while people are being murdered in Iraq?

[forgethell]

311. How did we

get off on that subject?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

313. Your sinkhole metaphor was apt,

and it translated perfectly to our invasion of Iraq.

See what you can do with a well-tuned metaphor?

[forgethell]

326. It wasn't my

metaphor. I was replying to a previous poster. Besides, it's still irrelevant.

I truly love the way lawyers think.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

358. Oh, someone else mentioned

something about sinkholes?

I missed that.

How good of you, though, to repeat it.

I truly love the way inadequate people feel the need to try - and fail - to insult people in a particular profession. It's your kind that made me wealthy. Thank you.

[forgethell]

381. No, you're wrong

there. As I have mentioned to you before, I have lived my entire 57 years almost entirely lawyer-free. You'd starve to death if you depended on my kind. By the way, don't you think that is a somewhat exclusionary and insensitive comment?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

388. Gee,

"almost" only counts in horseshoes. Nice try, though......

And thanks again for the $$$.

[Ripley]

63. Yeah the tiny percentage of false accusations should be

focused on WITH EQUAL SCRUTINY AND TAX DOLLARS as the huge number of assholes who rape women and children.

And why don't you care about the women and chidren whose lives are shattered for the rest of their lives when the criminal walks free. When I lived in Columbus Ohio the conviction rate for rape was around 40%. Are you trying to tell me 60% of the women were .... lying?

This is misogyny in action folks.

[forgethell]

95. I suppose it depends

on whose ox is gored.

I, on the other hand, prefer that justice be done in all cases, even if it results in a woman that goes jail for false accusations rather than a man for a false rape.

The percentage is not that tiny. I am personally aware of two cases where I know the accusation was false and a third where I am 98% sure that it was false. I cannot think that I am that many standard deviations off the mean.

[Ripley]

97. Funny how some people know lots and lots of people falsely

accused, yet don't know one person who was ever abused.

Odd that is.

[forgethell]

101. Now, I didn't

say that. My sister was abused at a young age. Not by a family member, though. Thank God. I had a friend raped in college.

Funny how some people disregard everything that contradicts their own presuppositions. Funny how some people show no respect for other's positions. Funny how some people think that other people won't know when they've been called a liar.

Odd? Yes it is.

[redqueen]

109. You really believe your anecdotal evidence

about those that you believe made false accusations of rape, can be extrapolated to the whole country? That this somehow stands as evidence that false accusations of rape are more than a tiny percentage of the accusations?

Pfft.

[forgethell]

115. It may be anecdotal to you

but I know it for a fact. Still, I would like to see some statistical evidence, too.

Rape should be treated like any other crime. There should be some corroborating evidence. If a woman is raped, there will be physical evidence which can be gathered. If she neglects this, well, maybe there is some other evidence, but no one should go to prison on a he said/she said scenario. Also, if she says she was ashamed, embarrassed, etc., she may well be telling the truth. She may also be lying. Better a thousand guilty men should go free than one man be unjustly punished. Don't you agree? Or are you an advocate for injustice?

[Ripley]

122. Unfuckingbelievable.

No I don't agree. Better a thousand guilty men should go free than one man be unjustly punished.

Are you trying to get banned?

[forgethell]

126. Banned?

how have I violated the rules?

[Rabrrrrrr]

156. Why ban someone for a strongly liberal statement?

Judge William Blackstone in the 1700s said that (sort of), though he actually said

It is better to let ten guilty men go free than to wrongly incarcerate one innocent man.

Seems to me to be a foundational, liberal statement.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/bl/BlackstoW.html
http://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/wblackstone.html
http://68.1911encyclopedia.org/B/BL/BLACKSTONE_SIR_WILLIAM.htm

[Ripley]

158. Not quite the same as 1000 guilty men now is it?

And since we're talking about rape of children on this thread, I think it's pretty unliberal to let 1000 pedophiles run around freely fucking up even thousands more people in the world.

Two words about banning: track record.

[forgethell]

164. I didn't say

"let them go free". I said, get the evidence. Sending an innocent man to prison is an injustice every bit as awful as, well, anything else. You don't seem to care, judging from your arguments.

[Rabrrrrrr]

269. So, basically, you don't know what that statement means, then

I read it as saying, "it's the state's and the court's responsibility to make DAMN sure that someone is guilty before sending them away; and this responsibility is SO important, and so sacred, that it is better to err on the side of honesty and accidentally let a guilty man go free than to accidentally imprison an innocent man."

To me, that's how the justice system should work.

I'm not sure how you are reading it, but I get the impression you think it says "We should let 1000 people go free, just to make sure in case one of them was innocent."

:shrug:

And no, we aren't talking the rape of children here - we're talking about a philosophical statement about the justice system, which statment says that the justice system should be set up in such a way that the number of accidentally imprisoned innocent people is always WAY lower than the number of accidentally guilty people who don't get imprisoned.

Does this make sense to you? Do you see the logic, and the wonderful liberal sense of justice, of that statement?

[noiretextatique]

385. that statement came from someone

who has made a lot of other statements in this thread too. you should check some of those out.
this person doesn't seem to understand the basics of how cases are investigated and prosecuted.

[redqueen]

123. The statistical evidence is quite easy to find.

How odd it is that you make these statements about how false accusations aren't a tiny percentage, without ever actually bothering to look them up for yourself.

Odd, indeed.

[forgethell]

145. It's never been

a subject I was particularly interested in researching before this thread. However, even one such case is enough to look at the problem. Injustice is injustice.

I never said what percentage there were, only that I knew of three separate instances where false sexual accusations were made. Two I know were false for certain, 1 I am very sure of but don't know for certain. I really don't believe that I am an out-lier.

Also, I would want more than just there numbers, I would want to examine their methodologies. I'm not a statistician, but I am an engineer, and I know more about statistics than most social "scientists" I've bothered to check.

[noiretextatique]

160. since you are an engineer, i'm sure you know that your sample size of 3

is not sufficient to form an opinion about false accusation. you state as much in your post, however, i am sure you'd agree that suggesting that all victims of rape need to have physical evidence to corroborate their asscusations (which you did in another post) is not exactly justice, particularly since you don't know the extent to which false accusation is or is not a problem.
i am a social scientist, btw :hi:

[Ripley]

163. Aw shaddup you!

You dang wimmen can't even count! Everyone knows engineers are the only ones that can be trusted with STATISTICS.

:hi:

[forgethell]

166. I hardly know

how to reply to that statement. Peace.

[noiretextatique]

172. hehehehehehe

:rofl: best git back to the kitchen fo mister gits home :hi:

[forgethell]

174. True, it is

a truly insufficient sample size. We engineers can work with just one, if we have to. Sometimes we make the correct decision, sometimes not.

However, as I have stated elsewhere, any instance of injustice is too many. Rape is a horrible crime, sexual abuse is a horriible crime, but so are false accusations.

Justice is not for a statistical aggregate but for individual persons. And it should be approached that way.

[noiretextatique]

180. of course we are conversing about this in a country

where both sexual abuse and rape are rampant. but i agree that false accusation is ALSO an injustice.

[forgethell]

305. Then we're

more or less on the same page.

[noiretextatique]

151. what if there is no physical evidence?

as in the case of rapists who use condoms and clean up after themselves? this type of predator may not try to conceal his identity because he knows there will be no evidence.
this type is likely to be a serial rapist. you think it would be better to let someone like this go free because there might only be the word of one, or two or ten of his victims? or would you characterize this as "hesaid/shesaid situation where no one shold go to prison?"

[forgethell]

161. There should be

some form of corroborating evidence. First, for example, that a rape had actually occurred. This should not be difficult. There should be some tissue damage, for example. I'm not an expert in this field, by any means. I don't even watch CSI. However, there might be time frames, etc. Especially in the case of a serial rapist.

No, if there is no evidence other than a "she said", I would be reluctant to convict, were I to be on the jury. On the other hand, again in the case of a serial rapist, the testimony of several women that this happened to them would be convincing. Always assuming that a rape could be shown to have occurred. I'm winging it here, so I may be making mistakes.

All that being said, if the rapist is convicted, why should he be out again in 5 years, or 10, or 50. Sex offenders should be put away for life, at the least.

[noiretextatique]

167. we argree on that...predators should receive harsh sentences

ok...evidence of intercourse may be there. but, some rapists watch CSI too and learn not to leave other physical evidence, e.g., semen. i heard of one rapist who made women wash with clorox. and of course some use the ultimate solution...murder.
interesting "she said"...would you believe s "she" if she was 3, with evidence of physical damage, but no semen, hairs or other evidence? 13? 33? 73?
in another post i noted you have a sample of 3 false accusation, but rape is a fairly common crime...so why the disbelief? i agree there needs to be some evidence, but shows like CSI and Law and Order are actually helping rapists to get smarter.

[forgethell]

delete

[forgethell]

177. I didn't say that I

disbelieved all accusations of rape. I just said that false accusations occur. An investigation should not automatically assume that the woman is telling the truth, or the child. The object shouldn't be to find someone to punish, but to find out {i]what the truth is. Further actions should occur depending on the evidence.

By the way, I did mention that I don't watch CSI

[OldLeftieLawyer]

290. Corroborate a rape allegation?

Witnesses? Would that be satisfactory?

Rape is a crime of stealth, and it's done in secret, hiding. If you think any woman would put herself through what a rape victim has to endure within the legal system, you'd understand how inane your theories are.

[forgethell]

306. Witnesses

would be fine, but, I agree, unlikely. Still, an accused's constitutional rights must be protected, even at the expense of the acquittal of a guilty man. Wouldn't you agree? If not, why are you practicing law?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

314. Putting aside your personal cheap shot,

your premise is beyond uninformed and clearly irrational.

If you ever had any dealings with such a matter, you'd know that the burden of proof on the prosecution is, indeed, huge, and the matter of "innocent until proven guilty" is preserved with great care and integrity.

At the same time, the alleged victim is run through a the ugliest gauntlet imaginable.

Given the number of matters dealt with in our system of jurisprudence, you, as an outsider, would be astonished at how remarkably often it goes exactly right. I think you're be astonished at a lot of facts about the system.

I'd say you're remarkably inexperienced and uniformed in these matters.

[forgethell]

328. Cheap shot?

No, it was only a question. Which, I notice, you have not answered.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

361. Notice closer

I answered quite clearly.

Your apology is accepted.

[forgethell]

377. The question was

Still, an accused's constitutional rights must be protected, even at the expense of the acquittal of a guilty man. Wouldn't you agree? If not, why are you practicing law?

"Yes", or "no", is all that is required. Not a treatise on all the protections, blah, blah, in the system. Lawyerly obfuscation at its best.

Then, if the answer is "no", the question becomes "why are you still practicing law?"

[OldLeftieLawyer]

390. Sez who?

Your "question" was impertinent and irrelevant. I'm sure you're familiar with those states. Rudeness is unworthy, another state you recognize and embrace.

[forgethell]

392. Now, although I'm sure

you didn't mean to, you have answered my question.

I'm gone now, have a nice weekend.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

396. Gee............

............and I was gonna make us espresso.

Congratulations on wresting humiliation from the jaws of dignity. You're clearly a pro.

Thanks again for the $$$.

[Sapphire Blue]

181. Your statement, "Better a thousand guilty men should go free

than one man be unjustly punished" in reference to rape & sexual abuse victims has to be one of the most disgustingly obscene statements I've ever read. It makes my skin crawl.

A registry for possibly lying accusers, but let the rapists free... What's next... stoning the accusers?

I feel the need to turn off my computer & go take a shower.

Au revoir.

[Modem Butterfly]

184. Hey, if it was good enough for Leviticus...

...I suppose it's good enough for some people...

[Modem Butterfly]

183. Rape victims are put through the ringer

You wouldn't believe the detailed, intimate exams that follow and accusation of rape, and yet, once the case arrives in a courtroom, it can all be for nothing when an attorney is willing to attack someone's sex life. "Did you fight hard enough?" "What were you doing out alone at that hour?" "How many men have you slept with?"

If you want to talk about injustice, let's talk about the way victims of rape are treated by our justice system before we spill any tears over the rapists, 'kay?

[traco]

257. The defense attorney for my attacker said

"You should feel lucky he didn't kill you".

The questions are horrible, everything is geared to making the victim seem like they deserved being raped!

[forgethell]

309. You have my

sympathy. In my own opinion, the justice system is geared to the advantage of the lawyers who run it, and no one else.

[traco]

315. You may be right.

They do seem to be the ones who benefit from everyone else's misery.

[forgethell]

308. Well,

I agree, the victim has a hard time of it, too. And there probably should be significant changes made in the way rape cases are handled. However, an accused is only an accused until he has been proven guilty. He is entitled to all of his constitutional rights. And if a woman, or a child, has made a false accusation, there should be punishment for that. In fact, there are laws already on the books: perjury and giving false statements to law officers are both against the law. Why aren't these laws enforced?

I don't see why everybody (well, most everybody) on this thread seems to think I am sticking up for rapists. How idiotic, and, it seems to me, indicative of a faulty command of either English or logic. I am sticking up for the rights of the accused. I simply cannot see how "progressives" can be against this, but I've been wrong before.

[redqueen]

342. How do you know the laws aren't enforced?

You seemed blissfully unaware of how unbelievably tiny a percentage the amount of false accusations were, but we're supposed to believe you're familiar with how often perjury laws aren't enforced?

Well, are you?

The reason people think you're sticking up for rapists is due to your comments saying things such as if there's no evidence the perp should go free.

Hear that girls and ladies? If you didn't get beat up, if you were too stunned or scared or intimidated by threats to put up a fight... or if you didn't get raped till you were bruised, well then you might as well not bother telling the cops!

I know most of you don't anyway out of either pure shame and humiliation or the knowledge of what you'll be treated like by the people who are supposed to be seeking out justice for you... but still... best even less bother to press charges.

:sarcasm:

:puke:

Your comments on this thread are either sublimely ignorant or ... nevermind.

[forgethell]

379. I neither said, not implied

the following

Hear that girls and ladies? If you didn't get beat up, if you were too stunned or scared or intimidated by threats to put up a fight... or if you didn't get raped till you were bruised, well then you might as well not bother telling the cops!

I know most of you don't anyway out of either pure shame and humiliation or the knowledge of what you'll be treated like by the people who are supposed to be seeking out justice for you... but still... best even less bother to press charges.


I don't even have any idea which comment of mine you are referring to. As I said before, you can ask any qustions to help clarify my position, and I will answer them to the best of my ability.

But stop making stuff up and trying to put words in my mouth. It's the tactic of those who have abandoned logic for emotionalism.

[redqueen]

380. You said no convictions without evidence.

If there are no bruises, if there is no semen, if they are COWARDS (your word, not mine), then why should they bother to say anything?

[forgethell]

382. Well maybe you

should take some lessons in reading comprehension. I cannot believe that anyone who calls herself a "progressive" would be in favor of convictions without evidence. Yet that is the only interpretation that I can put on your words. I said nothing whatever about what kind of evidence was needed. I don't think bruises or semen or any particular thing is a necessary piece of evidence. But I would require something more than just the unsupported word of a woman, especially if the accused denied it on the stand. And most especially in a date-rape case. Stranger rape, I would require substantially less corroborating evidence.

As for the "cowards" remark, I was referring to the woman who refuses to prosecute her rapist. She would let other women suffer just to avoid additional suffering herself. Look at the following definitions for "coward", and tell me where I am wrong. Or are you one of those people who think that relying on the dictionary definitions of words weakens an argument? I have met one or two on DU who have told me so. Unbelievable!!


cow·ard ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kourd)
n.
One who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain.Main Entry: cow·ard

Pronunciation: 'kau(-&)rd
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French coart, from coe tail, from Latin cauda
: one who shows disgraceful fear or timidity
- coward adjective Definition


coward
noun DISAPPROVING
a person who is too eager to avoid danger, difficulty or pain:
They branded her a coward for informing on her colleagues during the interrogation.

[seabeyond]

25. and the ones falsely accused is a you gotta understand the

destruction of your life is irrelevent compared to the higher number of destroyed lives of women.

i mean this makes no sense to say, it is ok that these peoples lives are ruined, because

i understand how hard it is. and it is hard. i say i am more angry at any woman that falsely claims rape than an actual rapist. but the fact is, it happens. and that is not NOT ok either. anymore than...

[redqueen]

44. I completely understand.

However to compare the two by saying there should be a registry for the children making the accusation?

No way. No way in hell.

[seabeyond]

61. of course it is silliness you would do a registry

that cannot be done to children. but where we are today, to have kids say, if you punish me, try to have any control over me i will call the cops. and they do it. and proceeding starts. the hardest is to see niece. my husband wont let her live here cause he will not risk being accused. adn this was before she pulled it on brother. this is just what we felt when she walked in our home

my father had her for a while, when he didnt have the boys, he had a friend of hers spend the night

we all didnt know each other felt this way. we didnt want to say anything bad about niece

we knew ahead she was going to do. told all the appropriate people. ahead of time. and all that has been dismissed. they say, she could be promiscuous because of sexual abuse. it is a no win for a man.

then i a female advocate who would never slight a womans claim, and support her regardless, have to say, am i not seeing. do i dare question

so it is a reality in our world. a tough one.

[Occulus]

136. Now you know how I feel about murder.

There's no murderer registry, yet we allow them out, sometimes after only months behind bars.

Where's the parity? Where's the "equal protection"?

We yank drunk drivers' licenses, but we don't have a registry for them. Yet I am sure drunk drivers reoffend, even if you take away their licenses.

Don't cry "recidivism". Not when we treat NO other crime the same way, even for demonstrable recidivism rates among those offenders.

It's hypocrisy. Rather flagrant hypocrisy. And I get to live with it in a very personal way; MY address is on the sex offender's registry, and *I* haven't been accused, charged, or convicted, nor have I actually offended.

Tell me why *I* should be punished right along with him. Can't? Then you cannot support the sex offender's registry.

Period.

[forgethell]

148. My own solution is

just don't let convicted sex offenders out (murderers, either). Perhaps then lawyers wouldn't be so anxious to plead their clients, either.

[redqueen]

347. I don't support the registry. I think they should be locked up for life.

[forgethell]

371. Aha,

a solution on which we can agree.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

33. I've got a simple way to deal with BOTH problems.

Don't make mere accusations public record. It becomes public upon conviction only. That will also end the "jury of public opinion" bullshit too.

[redqueen]

46. I agree.

Too much trial by public opinion in this country.

[Rabrrrrrr]

121. Now there is an insanely sensible idea - and such an easy one to implement

so you know it will never happen, because it makes sense.

Imagine a world in which people get tried in the courts, and not in the media before the trial even begins.

I would also say that even the accusation should remain out of the public record, so that employers and mortgage lenders, etc., will never be able to know that the person was ever accused (unless there was a conviction, of course).

[blondeatlast]

231. Indeed, indeed. nt

[LisaL]

15. And how in the world do you propose to put you husband's

step son or others like him into the registry? Especially since your husband was convicted?
You would need prove that step son made false allegation, and good luck getting any of that since apparently the jury or the judge believed the allegations were true.
And from your second post, are you saying your husband actually plead guilty?

[Megahurtz]

16. Um......

I don't get it. How could someone that was sleeping be found guilty of being a perpetrator of sexual abuse?

Is there more to this?

Could you give me an idea briefly what it exactly was that your husband was accused of doing sexually while sleeping? (without getting into gross lengthly details of course........)


:wtf:

[Occulus]

179. We can't figure it out either.

The only angle I can grok is the criteria for sexual abuse in MI. Among other things, it includes (or included at the time) "touching a minor child between the knee and the groin area". Another black mark for him was that he was an "authority figure", i.e., parent, stepparent, uncle, etc.

I think that was the heart of the charge: he touched the child between the knee and the groin; therefore, it's sexual abuse.

Make a LOT of sense, huh?

[Rabrrrrrr]

18. You raise a critical point

The stigma of even being ACCUSED of a sex crime, esp. against a child, is tremendous. Even if it's perfectly clear the accusation was a lie, that accusation is always there and people will always wonder...

I have spent most of my adult life around teenagers and children, and over the years, the amount of awareness that we adults are asked to have has gone up and up and up - to protect children, but also to protect ourselves. To make sure we're never alone; to always have at least two in the car with us, or preferably to have two adults; to make sure that if we are ever needing to have a private conversation with a child, that we do it in public where other people can see us; that we be very judicious in hugging and touching, and on and on. Much of that is to protect the adults, because an accusation can be the end of a life. Though this also helps protects the children, in that they're never alone with an adult who MIGHT be a predator.

And you run the real risk, with kids, of an angry parent convincing the child that they were abused by the other parent. Or using a baby to do so. That happened to my cousin - during the divorce, his wife claimed that he sexually abused the baby girl, who was only a few months old. It was awful, and I have no doubt that my cousin was innocent, mostly because the woman he married was a psychotic bitch and all of us warned him that marriage was destined to die. Anyway...

I wish I had an answer to your question. In some ways, it would be great to at least keep a record so later judges/juries know if a child has made false claims. But on the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if a number of those children who made false claims either really believed it, or were forced into it by someone else, OR, as can also happen, were simply convinced by someone else that it happened.

Children are evry difficult tesstifiers, because it's very easy to mislead them in questioning, and they are very much wanting to give the "right" answers, so you never know if they're telling the truth or not.

So a child registry could be just as harmful to the child as a false accusation is to an adult.

[Freddie Stubbs]

26. Perahps not for children, but definitely for adults who do this

[crispini]

27. Well, one thing that you've left out from your post

is whether or not the child that accused your husband did go on to make subsequent accusations? I'm curious about this.

I can certainly attest to the devastating impact that this can have on someone's life, as an old and dear friend was accused of a sex offense that was not true. He was not indicted (sp?), however, he lost a longtime job (teaching) that he loved and has since had to financially struggle at a less lucrative job and cannot, of course, go back into teaching, which is terribly sad as he was a talented educator and mentor.

I don't, however, know if the boy who accused him went on to subsequently accuse others, and I'd really like to see some data on how true this is?

[Stinky The Clown]

31. I won't flame you

Neither will I pass any judgment on your situation. Each case is an individual event with its own facts.

On the larger notion, however, I am fully sympathetic to the plight of falsely accused adults. Whether about this or any other crime, false accusations should be, if proved, punishable to the false accuser to the same degree the accused crime would be punished.

When I remarried, my wife had a daughter who was 10 years old. She didn't like me (not a problem there ... I sympathized with her .... seeing your parents split is traumatic to young kids, no matter how bad things might have been between the parents). I was fortunate. We came to an agreement that has now turned to a deep mutual parent-child-like affection. But back then, my very worst fear was her accusing me of something just to get to me. I shared this with my wife, who, it turns out, was also perceptive enough to see that possibility even before we discussed it.

This sort of thing has happened and will continue to happen. Teachers are very vulnerable to it. My wife is a teacher of music and dance. Women don't nearly have the same problem with it as men do, but she is very much aware of the problem. Take, for example, a male dance teacher. Little girls who become very involved in modern or ballet also form a deep attachment to their teachers. They elevate them to near god-like levels. But woe is the god who falls from their grace. Here would be a man who routinely must - to do his job - touch their bodies to get them to put an arm or leg or back ... or, yes, butt .... in certain positions. In group situations, there's the protection of others being present. But these same teachers also teach private lessons. What of what happens there? Or doesn't happen but gets alleged. Phys-ed teachers, ice skating teacher, even general sports coaches can all find themselves in these circumstances.

A register for such young offenders? I'm not sure I go along with that. But to be sure, their personal, private records should account for this.

Particularly in today's climate, children do, in fact, hold extraordinary powers over adults with this issue. Fortunately, most courts are well aware. That said, it is very easy to be aware and yet convict. Emotion trumps reason almost any day of the week.

Your husband has my sympathy.

[LisaL]

36. Young offenders of what? Don't you think

you would have to prove first the allegations were false? And in her case, her husband was either convicted, or plead guilty (it's not clear which from her post).

[Stinky The Clown]

57. I didn't comment on her case, as I said in my post, except to say ....

.... that every case has its own facts. Accepting the OP's facts on face value, I closed with an expression of sympathy. No condonment of wrong doing. Sympathy based on an assumption of innocence.

The rest of my comments were in the abstract. And **of course** the allegations would have to proven false. Sheesh.

And I didn't call for any register. In fact, I said clearly I didn't. I *did* however, say the kid's personal, private record should account for an accusation (unsaid but implied ... a *false* accusation).

On edit .... make that a **maliciously intended false accusation** .... not an accusation that failed to stand up in court. A **proven* attempt at malicious accusation .... just to be perfectly clear.

[LisaL]

66. Assumption of innocence clearly doesn't apply since

the individual in question had plead guilty. After the person is convicted or pleads guilty, they are no longer considered innocent.

[Stinky The Clown]

79. We're obviously talking about two different things

You're talking about her specific case.

I'm talking in the abstract. NOT about her specific case (except as *specifically* explained in my immediately previous post). And I won't talk about her case because it has facts. I don't know those facts, except as the OP presented them. Ergo, I can't comment with any confidence of being right ..... or even reasonable.

[LisaL]

108. In any abstract case, to put a child in some sort of registry, you

would have to prove the child lied. Which might mean real victims would be scared to report crimes, because if there is not enough prove, they will be punished for reporting the crime.

[Stinky The Clown]

114. I also did NOT call for a registry ... PLEASE .... re-read my posts

Look, I really would like to debate this, but you're either misreading what I said ..... or I said what I said but was inartful in phrasing it ...... or you didn't read my post at all.

I did **not** call for a registry for children. I called for a note to be made in their **personal** ..... **private** ... files.

Once again .... NO registry for kids.

'K?

[Occulus]

208. *whew* Thank you.

That was precisely what I was talking about. It's amazing- no, flabbergastically stunning- that some people don't see this as a problem issue.

"flabbergastically" is not a word. I made it up.

[Pithlet]

37. Horrible, terrible, awful idea.

Let's just terrify real victims so they'll never come forward. It's bad enough. Can you imagine if they knew they would be punished if no one believed them, or even despite that, if a conviction were successfully defended. Children being punished by being publicly humiliated is just about the worst form of justice I can think of outside of the death penalty.

I also find your notion that children should be punished as adults revolting. A child coerced by a parent to falsely testify against another is nowhere near in the same league as the monsters who actually victimize. If it is found that a child's testimony is false, then an investigation into why would be appropriate, and if it is found that an adult is responsible, then that adult should be punished. Not the child. I find that very notion more repugnant than most conservative beliefs. That's saying something.

[MountainLaurel]

43. Case in MD recently

Where a teenager had been convicted of making a false molestation report on her stepfather. Mother hadn't believed her, and the girl was sent back to live with him and her mother.

Then 11 months later the girl gave birth to a child who was genetically proven to be the stepfather's.

Frankly, I think the judge who sent her back there, and the mother, need to be in jail. Now.

[LisaL]

48. Which clearly shows that some women are blind when

it comes to their husbands. If this thing was going right under this mother's nose, and she still didn't believe it, what in the world gives anyone an idea that a wife who wasn't even with the husband at the time of alleged crime actually knows that the husband is innocent of that crime?

[redqueen]

81. Which is why I NEVER believe friends or loved ones when

they appeal the innocence of their friends and loved ones.

There is no way for me to know. Only the accused and the child really knows, barring physical evidence.

[Occulus]

117. which is why it's so horrible

Often, it boils down to "yes he did!" "no I didn't!" where no physical evidence is involved.

If ten people came to a prosecutor and said YOU have been molesting your child, and on the stand, they all told the same story, but YOU told a different story, and the child supported your statements, what do you think would happen?

(that wasn't my husband's situation, please understand; this is only a "what if" question.)

[redqueen]

130. Yes, it is horrible.

It's sad that this crime has gone on for so long, and been ignored for so long, that it's built up to this point.

Now we are here, and we must deal with the mess that has been left for us. It is sad that there are situations where innocent people are accused. I feel sad for them. However, I recognize that throughout history, and even today, these crimes go unpunished FAR more often than they are punished. So although I see that some dishonest children and some hateful evil parents will make messes of innocent falsely-accused people's lives, I have to leave that up for the courts to determine. I save the larger share of my sympathy, concern, and activisim to the larger group of victims. I think that's pretty logical. And it's damn hard for me to be logical about this subject.

[Megahurtz]

49. BLEH!

:puke:
The courts do this kind of thing way more often than convicting the falsely accused.

[LostinVA]

65. There have been cases where kids have done it maliciously

Cases against teachers whom they haven't liked, etc. And not seven years old either. They shouldn't be punished as adults; I don't agree to that. But I honestly believe the adult (usually) man who has had his career and life probably ruined deserves some restitution. But what? And, you KNOW, even if the guy is proven innocent beyond a shadow of a doubt, that some people will still think he did it. <sigh>

[Pithlet]

86. My position is not

that false accusations should be ignored. It's not that I don't feel that a victim of a false accuasation deserves no restitution. I do realize how devestating a false accusation is. My whole problem is with a registry of children who have been accused of falsely accusing someone. I don't think it would help solve the problem in any way, and would only serve to hurt children. Child abuse is real, and happens all too often. Such a registry would be bound to include real victims, for one thing. And, my position that chilren should never be punished as adults also stands in the way of my ever supporting such a thing.

[LostinVA]

132. No, I agree with you -- I said I don't agree with a registry

I just wonder what can be done. Some people on this thread don't think it's a problem if people are falsely accused. Most of the kids who do this without any prompting are middle school and high school age. Old enough to know what they're doing. Locking them up is a bad choice... so what's a good one? I have no idea... but I know they shouldn't just have shame and guilt to live with, because it's doubtful they would feel any anyway.

[Pithlet]

133. I don't see a single post in this thread

that claims that it's not a problem if someone is falsely accused.

[LostinVA]

147. Some [people on this thread

Do not believe this is a problem, and that posters who say they know people this has been done to are exaggerating, or that they have no sympathy for people falsely accused. This has been repeated. One poster who did nothing wrong was told they should be banned.

Now, I am not arguing with you. Neither of us thinks a registry is a good idea, nor do we think child abuse is something that shouldn't be very harshly punished.

[Pithlet]

153. Where?

Link, please. I just went over this thread again, and I don't see anyone who stated they had no sympathy for someone falsely accused. And, I'm sorry, but stating that there are people in this thread who are exaggerating how often it happens is in no way stating that it doesn't happen, or that they have no sympathy when it does. The people who are claiming that there is an exaggeration surely aren't posting any facts pointing to that conclusion.

You don't want to argue with me. Well, it's not that I want to argue either, but the comments you've stated are false, and I'm only pointing that out. I'm glad that you don't think a registry is a good idea. But I disagree with your characterization of the opinions of some of the people in this thread who are also against it.

[LostinVA]

175. Please do not call me a liar again.

Mys statements are not false. You are wanting to just have me be so wrong and call me a liar for some reason. Those statements ARE in some posts on this thread.

They opinions are legitimate, as are those of the people disagreeing with them. Good grief.

You are also arguing with me about something I'm not even talking about: the exaggerating.

You know what? I'm tired of being treated on this thread like I'm advocating freedom for child rapists, so I think I'll go have a beer, watch "Dr. Phil," and let you all say whatever you want. Jesus.

[Pithlet]

207. I'm not calling you a liar

I see you are reverting to attacking me, however.

I just think you're reading some things wrong. Because no one said the things in this thread you think they did. Just as you somehow spun what I said as saying you're advocating for child rapists. :crazy:

[redqueen]

350. She didn't call you a liar.

She asked to see which posts were saying that false accusations were no problem.

You can't prove your comment since it's just hyperbole, so you attack her and do the 'oh I'm so persecuted' dance, as others on this thread are doing.

It'd be funny if it weren't so sickening.

[Ripley]

205. That's a false statement.

I did not tell him he should be banned. I asked if he was trying to be banned. Big difference. And as I answered your question, it is due to his record of posting is why I asked him that.

[Eloriel]

266. We need a new word: one for profoundly anti-child sentiments

And here I thought it was mostly the Repugs who were guilty of all this child hate and what I consider to be a veritable war on children.

I just wonder what can be done. Some people on this thread don't think it's a problem if people are falsely accused. Most of the kids who do this without any prompting are middle school and high school age. Old enough to know what they're doing. Locking them up is a bad choice... so what's a good one? I have no idea... but I know they shouldn't just have shame and guilt to live with, because it's doubtful they would feel any anyway.

You think just SOME children are sociopaths, or all of them are? Sheesh.

Let me share something with you: Any child who has falsely accused anyone is in deep emotional trouble and in dire need of therapy. (I frankly can't imagine children knowing enough to do that credibly unless they HAVE been victimized, but for the sake of argument, I'll go along with the premise.) Any child who has falsely accused because of the interference of an adult has been ABUSED by that adult -- and since the subject matter is sex it is sexual abuse as well -- and is in dire need of therapy.

You folks who are so damned eager to punish children need to get in touch with your own childhood just a little bit better, have a little more charity and compassion for the child you once were. And a LOT more charity and compassion for the children of today.

[Eloriel]

258. Pithlet -- what bothers me about your posts is --

how do you KNOW your friend was "innocent"? How CAN you know? Did the child recant? In my mind there's absolutely NO WAY you can know for sure that your friend is innocent. Pedophiles and child molesters and incestors come from all socioeconomic classes, and don't all look like some of the creeps who've been arrested lately.

HOW can you KNOW? I'd really like you to explain that.

[Pithlet]

259. Huh? I think you've confused me with someone else

I'm against this whole registry business. I think you and I are on the same side of this issue. I didn't talk about any friend.

[Eloriel]

275. Oops, sorry.

:-)

[Pithlet]

281. No problem

:)

[Occulus]

74. Even if the child lies intentionally?

Even if the child's lies are told for his or her own personal gain?

Put them on a registry until the age of 21, so all adults near them know that they are willing to lie about those adults sexually abusing them.

Kids who would abuse their knowledge of what sexual abuse is and how it happens are a danger to all adults involved with them. Why is that so difficult for some of us to understand?

[LisaL]

90. Again, how do you propose your step son is put into the registry?

You husband had plead guilty. To put anyone in any registry, you would have to prove that person actually lied. You can't just put children that say they were abused or their parents into registries without actually having prove the accusations are false. How do you propose to do that since your husband plead guilty? And even in the case with no conviction, how do you prove the accusations are false?

[Pithlet]

93. Yes.

Children should not be punished as adults. What is so hard to understand about that? What is so hard to understand that such a list would terrify actual victims from coming forth, because they're afraid they'll be punished for it. Again, seems like that's pretty easy to understand.

Such a list is nothing but vindictive vengeance, and has nothing to do with justice. Not to mention that the odds that it would contain actual victims that no one believed are significant. How does a child end up on such a loathsome list? When their accused is acquitted? How do you come up with the proof that a child is 100% lying, and that that lying is 100% of their own volition, and that no adult is behind it?

My opinions on this matter reflect nothing about how I feel about wrongful convictions or false accusations.

Edit spelling.

[Megahurtz]

96. Maybe I would understand

if you would answer any of my questions.

[Bluerthanblue]

267. sorry-

i truely am, if your mate is indeed a 'victim'- BUT children DON'T lie about sexual abuse to PERSONALLY 'gain' anything-

Children are victims of thier environment- if this child was 'coached' by an angry ex-spouse, then he, or she was DOUBLY the victim-

i'm a 'survivor'- AND a parent- i have to admit that i'm far fromwithout 'predjuice'- but parents who manipulate thier children to lie in order to 'get revenge' against an estranged parterner ARE (not so rare as you'd think) often prosecuted for thier actions-

If you want to be furious, be furious at the attorney who encouraged your mate to pead 'guity' to something he says, and you clearly believe didn't happen- even if he'd been found guilty, he could very well have appealed-

As for the 'stigma' of even being accused- that is indeed a very sad reality- but it also happens in MANY other crimes- people who not only are innocent of crimes, but spend years in jail (when they are found later to be entirely innocent) carry similar burdens-

The 'problem' is, that for HUNDREDS of years, people turned thier backs and developed 'blind/deaf/ignorant' spots while children, women and 'less powerful' people were treated in ways that no human should ever be treated- Abuse of a child is something that can be 'survived' but not something that EVER 'goes away'- There is that 'pendulum swing' to the opposite extreem in most situations- but it's about time that people took thier heads out of the sand, and FACED this issue HEAD ON- the SHAME that is placed on the victim has silenced countless children and caused the cycle to continue un-checked.

No, i don't believe there should be a registery for children who either recant, or are coached to testify about abuse. i DO think there should be a way for people who are CLEARLY found to be innocent to be 'removed' from the 'registery'- my heart goes out to you, because you are clearly suffering along with your mate, but children are at the 'mercy' of adults- and often do NOT have the maturity, self-confidence, or trust to do what is in thier own best interest- which is ALWAYS to tell the TRUTH-

Silence has not protected children (as Audre Lourde has said, not specifically about 'children') but silence has allowed more harm to be done than we would ever believe-

i wish you and your loved one a positive solution --

[Megahurtz]

40. Another question........

I don't mean to be offensive, but........

How do you know for certain that the stepson is lying? Or any kid is lying, for that matter?

Not trying to be offensive, or saying for sure that your husband is guilty, just asking...........

[Welsh_Princess]

41. I don't think that would the best

way to handle it. Yes there should be consequences, but most children don't just decide to accuse someone of something like that. There are usually other factors at work. In the case you gave, it sounds like the ex-wife was really responsible for the accusation. Other children who falsly accuse adults are often being molested, but are too scared to say who it is. I think it would be too difficult to prove, and to tramatic for a child who probably is already dealing with problems. It might also discourage children from coming forward with abuse, many already believe that adults won't believe them, this would just make it more scary if people didn't believe them. Besides, what if one of them really was molested after they were on the database, would that make their testamony less important?

[Burma Jones]

50. Has the conviction been overturned or a pardon sought?

I realize he pled out, but, if lies were told to coerce this plea, then what attempts have been made to clear his name?

If the lie can be proven, then the liars should be prosecuted. If the lie cannot be proven, and given his guilty plea, then you might consider that your husband is lying to you. The incongruous testimony you cite as ungrokkable isn't enough to determine whether the accuser was lying.

People, you just have to be exceptionally cautious when getting married, especially when there's already children involved.

[LisaL]

53. Well, exactly.

How can this poster know for sure that it's the husband who is telling the truth, and it's the step son who lied?
:eyes:

[Occulus]

59. Sex offenses cannot be overturned in MI.

AFAIK. We checked into it, and since it's a sex offense, it cannot be expunged, and the statute for appeal has run out. He's screwed for life, basically.

[LisaL]

62. Yet he plead guilty without any evidence against him?

That doesn't make much sense to me.

[Occulus]

87. His lawyer told him if he pled guilty

he would retain custody of his daughter. What his lawyer DIDN'T tell him was that he would also be subject to the registry, which had at the time just been passed into law.

His lawyer also did not contact any of his character witnesses. There were many, but none of them were ever contacted. Basically, his lawyer took him for a quick and easy $20K ride.

[Betty]

270. Sounds like maybe you have a legal malpractice case

I am sure you don't want to ever have to deal with another lawyer again, but that lawyer sounds downright negligent.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

293. Hold it

He copped a plea. He chose to do that, and he ended it. If he wanted to plead inadequate counsel, he should have done it. But, there's no appeal from a plea, so please don't cite some "statute for appeal."

He made a choice. Now he has to live with it. It's that simple.

[Ripley]

51. Why is it that whenever Sex Abuse threads are in LBN...

(there are 3 right now)...these threads pop up as well?

Always the deflection threads telling us how many poor accused men are really innocent and never touched the kid or never raped the "girl". Their lives have been ruined. Most kids lie under social worker pressure. Women are gold diggers. Hell, there's even a guy saying Janet Reno is a monster upstream!

No one says mistakes haven't been made in the justice system regarding children and adults. But I'm really disgusted that so many DUers immediately accuse the victims and try to make the case that they are all either lies, implanted fantasies or vendettas. The actual percentage of those might be 5% of the cases, and yes, that's terrible for those mistakenly accused.

But the zealousness with which certain DUers rabidly latch onto this small percentage to try and warp the reality into something that it is not is very insulting.

[LostinVA]

69. Janet Reno

I like Janet Reno alot. I do not think Janet Reno is a monster. However, I do think she has alot to answer for regarding that case she prosecuted in Florida. It was very much a witch hunt.

[Occulus]

99. Accuse the victims? Why, YES, in this case.

This kid that accused him was no kind of victim.

The reason why I started this thread was to underscore the fact that some kids will lie about being abused, and yet they go unpunished.

Parity in this law is essential to ensure people are not placed on a registry without cause. Children who lie about being sexually abused deserve to have their lives turned upside down just as much as are the lives of those they accuse. If they come forward later and say they lied, there should be consequences; frequently, their recantation of their statements is seen as simply 'remorse' and is discounted.

That, and even if they do lie about it, it's very very very very very hard to prove. On the other hand, sexual abuse accusation are very very very very very easy to make, and if done falsely, should be punished just as severely as the actual offenders are.

I'm not defending actual child molestors in this thread- I'm condemning those who lie about having been molested. Huge difference.

[LisaL]

103. The step son in your story didn't came out and said he lied.

Yes, it's horrible when people lie about crimes committed against them. But without prove that they lied, how in the world do you propose they can be put into registries? It's absurd.

[Occulus]

138. The proof of the pudding.

He testified to an intentional sexual abuse act while at the same time testifying that the abuser was sleeping when the abuse occurred.

How is that NOT a lie?

[Modem Butterfly]

55. Holy fuck no!

Jesus Christ, they're just kids. Better to go after the adults who have manipulated and intimidated them into lying.

[Occulus]

100. What if the kid comes up with it on their own? n/t

[Modem Butterfly]

112. I think this would be rare in the extreme...

If the kid is old enough to be prosecuted for false charges, then they should be prosecuted. But I sincerely doubt most alleged victims would just make up charges on their own.

[Occulus]

157. Rare, but not unheard of,

so why are so many here acting like it NEVER happens? It does, and it's a life-destroying event.

People falsely but 'successfully' accused of these crimes have no practical recourse. They might, on paper, but not in practice.

[TeeYiYi]

71. The child's evil misdeed . . .

. . . will follow him by default. It will always exist in his "permanent record" to discredit any future accusations. In a way, this almost puts the child at a disadvantage because if he were ever to REALLY be sexually abused, his words would ring hollow. He's now the boy who cried wolf.

TYY

[Occulus]

106. Don't you know it!

This kid that accused my husband is getting his- went to juvie for drugs and a couple other offenses, violent ones IIRC.

He's getting what was coming to him, but my husband is still on the registry for no good reason.

(the kid testified my husband was SLEEPING and his hand DIDN'T move once it flopped over onto the kid's "groin area". By the way, did you know that one of the criteria for sexual abuse in MI is "touching a minor child between the knee and the groin"? No explanation of what's a "proper" touch. It's been explained to us by his probation officer at the time that this actually means ANY touch. That may have been a lie.)

[Eloriel]

285. Oh, so the stepson has a drug problem, eh?

What an amazing coincidence. Did you know that child abuse including child sexual abuse is a leading cause of teen drug abuse/addiction, as well as other criminal activity? Couldn't be because he was sexually molested as a child OR, (take your pick), forced to file a false charge by his mother. NAh. Children are just evil, quite on their own. Nevermind the stats about drug use/addiction

Your hatred and resentment toward this child who HAS BEEN ABUSED (just a question of exactly how and by whom) is getting less and less attractive and in my mind is beginning to seriously erode your own credibility -- and certainly sympathy for your plight as well, at least for knowledgeable readers (and there are a few here).

But keep talking, this is getting more and more interesting and the picture begins to come into focus.

Say, what was your husband doing sleeping in the ssame bed (or whatever) as stepson? What did he tell you about that? Is it the Michael Jackson defense?

[Megahurtz]

89. Children should NOT be put on a registry.

Because of my opinions in the above posts, and others on this board, which I'm sure you have seen.

In my experience I have seen many cases even with physical evidence of sexual abuse that never get prosecuted, also containing a child's testimony.
This is how fucked up the law is.
False accusations are almost impossible to prosecute, although I believe that there probably have been people that have been falsely accused before, however unsuccessfully.

Because the fucked-up law does not snag all pedophiles......especially the ones who are guilty of incest......

I tend to think that the one's who have been convicted are most likely guilty of the crime.

[redqueen]

102. Thank you for posting this!

:applause:

[Megahurtz]

107. Your welcome!

:)

[Occulus]

110. As far as you go, you're right

He really WAS sleeping on the couch, and his stepson really DID climb onto the couch with him, and the guy really DID flop his hand- reversed- onto the kid's groin in his sleep. That's undisputed.

What is at issue, in his case, is whether it rose to the level of sexual abuse. The kid said it did, it was, and he's guilty. His lawyer pressed him to plead such, and he did... even though there was no "there" there.

He's much wiser about the legal system now than he was then, but that doesn't help him. Did he do what he was accused of? Well, yes. Was it abuse? Hell no! But the system said otherwise.

[Megahurtz]

127. Totally weird.

Your husband's lawyer said that if he plead guilty to this act, which turns out to be a crime, he would retain custody of his daughter through the court? After he pleads guilty to molesting a child?

Wow, even that's totally weird.

It all sounds really weird.:shrug:

[Occulus]

169. That's what happened; he still has joint legal custody. To this day.

Like I said, it was the lightest sentence any lawyer looking at his case had ever seen.

But do this math for me, please:

NEW sex offender registry + no proof it works + sex offense cases + newly-elected judge = ???

In that context, it makes a LOT more sense....

[Sapphire Blue]

240. A child molester can retain custody of his own child as long as

this is not the child he has been convicted of molesting. In this perverted 'justice' system, molesting another child does not impact custudy of one's own child. Weird? It's insane... an absolutely insane atrocity that any court would award custody to a convicted child molester.

[LisaL]

129. That just sounds nuts. How can it be abuse, if your husband

was not aware of what he was doing, as he was sleeping?
Are you just recalling this one incident among other alleged incidents, or is that all there was?

[Occulus]

171. That's all there was.

As I said, over and over: it never should have resulted in what it did.

[noiretextatique]

105. the registry will never happen

it seems to me that the real culprits here are the ex-wife and the ex-mil who used the child for their purposes. is a civil suit against them an option? i see you mentioend that you are gay, and i'm wondering that have something to do with why they used the child to make the accusation.
it seems the best option is to get the son to recant and tell the story, if that is possible.

[Occulus]

128. I'm not really saying it SHOULD

what I'm trying to say is that the allegations, in and of themselves, if untrue, can lead to events for the accused that are truly life-destroying. Yet, the law makes no attempt to differentiate between "major", "minor", and "nonexistent" offenses; they ALL go on the same registry.

For my part, only those who have reoffended should be put on the registry. It's just too easy to make such allegations stick if you and especially you and others want them to.

Yet there's no real punishment for lying about such offenses. I see that as a tragic wrong.

[LisaL]

135. Well, I am confused ever more by your posts.

Your step son didn't lie, even according to you, as you said he accused your husband's hand touching him while the husband was sleeping. According to you, this had actually happened, so what did your step son lie about?
Hmm? What is described by you does not sound like a crime whatsoever, but you say your step son made false allegation. What exactly would be false allegations? It seems the allegations were true, except what was alleged shouldn't have been considered a crime.
Then the fault is with the legal system, not the child.

[Occulus]

140. Intent.

The lie was that there was 'abuse' occurring. The TRUTH was WHAT the incident was. The LIE was that it was sexual abuse.

The system bought the lie, presumably to get a conviction. To prove the law works.

It's NOT my stepson, thank God. This is a stepson of the accused, the son of HIS wife, from a previous marriage.

(This speaks to the psychology of the single mom with son who marries a guy that the son doesn't much like. There may even be a name for it, but it's a situation where the stepson was the "man of the house" before his mom got married, and he didn't much care for the "competition". It's a weel-established phenomenon, from what I've read about the behavior. The stepson will occasionally do whatever it takes to get the new father out of the house, perhaps because "he's not my dad and he can't tell me what to do". I'm sure you're familiar with it.)

[LisaL]

144. One would think that since what the child described wasn't abuse,

the adults would not file charges. You want to blame this child for everything, but yet he didn't lie, even according to you. He described something that had actually happened, again, according to you. One would think that adults in charge of the investigation would know better what constitutes abuse and what doesn't.

[Occulus]

155. Ah, but it WAS abuse.

Apparently, the criteria at the time for sexual abuse included "touching a child between the knee and the groin." The TYPE of touch wasn't spoken to.

It could be something so simple... as the back of someone's hand flopping over onto the groin of their stepson whilst sleeping. As an "authority figure" (stepparent), according to the State, the accused was doubly suspect.

"One would think that adults in charge of the investigation would know better what constitutes abuse and what doesn't."

They knew exactly what they were doing, as the incident rose to the level of abuse on paper, and what's On Paper is God, don't ya know?

/snark

I've said it over and over: his case never should have made it in front of a judge. It did, and he got screwed.

[noiretextatique]

139. i hear what you are saying

it is tragic that people's lives are ruined by false accusation, and that they have no recourse, which is why i suggested civil court. civil is a remedy for loss of income at least, if you can prove the allegation was false.

i am not sure i support public registries at all, to be honest. i'd have to do some research to see how effective they've been.

[Eloriel]

141. You know what, kgfnally?

I'm not going to flame you, but I am going to share what went through my mind as I read your post:

1. I hope with all my heart that your husband IS innocent, and that you're not just in serious denial. Children file false reports less than 2% of the time -- basically the same percentage as false reports for all other crimes. Your presentation of the facts doesn't allow me to ferret out the truth here, aside from just taking you at your word, which I can't do. You see, just as has been typical with rape and sexual harrassment for adult women, children are mostly not believed, but their lying perpetrators usually ARE. I therefore side with the children -- always, barring SOME sort of evidence pointing to deception. I can't say it often enough: 98% of the time children don't lie about this shit. Perps DO, 100% of the time.

2. I understand very well the animus toward an ex-wife who is refusing to let go and behave, but your husband got convicted -- there must have been some pretty credible evidence there. I also have to question your version because unless this was quite a while ago, interrogation and interview techniques have really improved. Even in my little ole rural Georgia county, the law enforcement procedures where sexual offenses are alleged or suspected are simply top notch -- but I can't talk about other GA counties.

3. You need therapy too. The anger, hatred and resentment is -- well, I'll just leave it at unhealthy.

4. If your version is accurate, the child involved needs a lot of LOVE -- and therapy also, not your hatred and resentment. Well, the child needs therapy whether or not it's true because one way or the other this child has been used, and that's child abuse. Since the subject is sex, that makes it sexual abuse as well.

[Occulus]

149. If I had a scanner, I'd post the transcript.

I don't, so I can't right now. I'd have to dig it out in any case.

This all happened six or seven years ago, before I ever even met the guy. Yet the truth is writ there for all to see- the child testified the accused was asleep at the time of the incident. It's right there, in black and white.

He was convicted, if it helps, in Oakland County- the richest, snobbiest, most bigoted county in the state of Michigan. As of a few years ago, there was a point system in place in their courts, which actually gave credit to public defenders for convictions- they placed it in the financial best interest of the public defenders to do as poor a job as possible. The evidence of the point system- the web page on which it was explained- has been wiped from their website (what a shock)... so I don't know if they still do it.

My jaw hit the floor when I read that stuff.

As for me needing therapy, well... you're not wrong about the need, only the reasons. This is only one reason, and I'm sure you've seen a couple of my other threads in the past containing yet more reasons.

What I have hatred and anger and resentment for is the way the system has treated a case it never should have even seen. I'm angry and hateful and resentful for being unable to do anything at all to influence a situation I know, deep down, cannot continue without someone (namely, him) going over the edge. I can guarantee you he will not be able to make it to the end of his his registry requirement without snapping, NOT because he was really guilty and was only hiding it for all this time, but because he knows he did nothing wrong and yet must STILL be lumped in with rapists and true molestors, and at this late date, nothing at all can be done to rectify the situation.

Am I angry about the registry itself? YES. *My* address is there as well, because we live together. That and that alone is enough cause for me to be against the registry itself, simply because my residence is on the registry and I have never committed, been accused of, put on trial for, or been convicted of, any sex offense whatever. I'm angry, I should be angry, and my anger is completely justified. I may need therapy for some things, but this isn't one of them.

The child involved has had legal problems since this incident. Karma? Perhaps.

[Megahurtz]

209. I don't know kgfnally,

Your case sounds like it may be an exceptional case.

There is a difference between an actual conviction and copping a plea.
Any prosecutor can offer a plea bargain, a conviction takes a little work.

Anyone can cop a plea especially depending on the threat of the bargaining chip, be it a long prison stint, or, the threat of losing a child, which was in this case your husband retaining custody of his daughter.

I'm guessing that the prosecutor told him he would be in prison long enough to lose parental rights?

If so, I still don't understand how they could sucessfully convict under the circumstances that I'm hearing.

But if he truely was innocent, asleep-and-didn't-know-what-the-fuck-he-was-doing, I don't see how they could push for a sucessful conviction, if this is the only evidence they had to go on.

If he is innocent as you believe, then I hate to say it, but if I were him I would have stuck with that fact and not copped a plea otherwise and would have just given custody of the daughter to the mother.
I would have proclaimed my innocence and taken the chance that the jury would see it. Then in that instance the conviction would be thrown and out parental rights would not be lost.

Otherwise, unfortunately what's done cannot be undone and your up shit creek.

If he truely is innocent, then no, he will not "reoffend".

(They could always make a law and restrict him from being around children when he's sleeping :silly::sarcasm:.... okay, that was stupid, but I tried)

If I were him and I was truely innocent I would avoid the public scorn. Fuck that!

Ever think of you guys living on a boat or something? I mean a nice boat, like a yacht or something?

Something like that, or travelling, may not be a bad idea.:)

[Eloriel]

291. No, it's not karma, it's a result of his victimization

I can't stand the way you're blaming, and hating, and being resentful of this child.

So let's say this was one world-class serious miscarriage of justice. THE BOY IS A VICTIM TOO. I really don't understand why you keep putting it all on him. Well, I do understand you can't afford to be mad at your husband for pleading guilty.

Let's say he was coerced into it by his mother. Can you imagine how YOU would feel under similar circumstances, once you realized the impact of what you'd done? You'd feel guilty, utterly worthless, hate your mother and distrustful of EVERYone in authority. You might be doing drugs to try to forget, and you might be angry enough to act out violently.

I understand you're hurting, but this child is hurting too, and he's got far fewer resources for dealing with it (including lacking the maturity that you have which comes with age if nothing else) -- that's why he's in trouble with the law. It's not karma, it's the natural outcome of what he's been through. What you are witnessing is quite possibly another wasted life.

No matter what happened, he deserves your compassion and support.

[amazona]

245. no one needs therapy, and we all need a cite

I'm guessing you don't have a child if you think children lie less than 2 percent of the time. At least make it believable!

Children lie, adults lie, every-freakin' body lies for any number of reasons. Whenever I'm hit with the claim that such-and-such class of people doesn't lie, I know I'm about to get some smoke blown where the sun don't shine.

And telling other people that they need therapy is just plain rude. My cite for this opinion would be Ms. Manners. Therapy is not a replacement for justice.

We all know from the work of Innocence Project that a great many people have been falsely convicted of terrible crimes like murder and rape. To pretend it doesn't happen...to pretend that it is something very unusual and rare and therefore we shouldn't trouble our pretty heads with such injustice...that just blows my mind. There is nothing progressive about turning one's back on innocents, be they child or adult.

Sheesh!

And telling victims of injustice that they are crazy to be upset and should be therapied--well, clearly I'm in the minority here, but that offends me.

I was a victim of abuse. I am not broken, and I don't need to spend my time and money on paying others a huge share of my income to "fix" me. If a poster is a victim of injustice, he is not broken and should not be shuffled off to pay even higher costs. The injustice should be fixed, durn it. I'm glad there is no injustice in your rural Georgia county. There is plenty of injustice in the parishes I've lived in, I've seen it first hand, from all sides -- I've seen clearcut cases of abuse ignored and deliberately blown off, and I've seen innocents prosecuted and, yeah, convicted of stuff that never happened, and it gets hard to listen to people blow smoke about all is well in their neck of the woods so God is in His heaven and all's right with the world everywhere.

Yeah, he's upset, give the guy a break. Anger is very healthy if it encourages someone to speak truth about their experience. Our legal system doesn't work to find truth. Innocence Project proves it. Instead of denying the obvious, why don't we talk about ways to fix this mess?

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[redqueen]

355. Her post was not about lying, she was talking about false reports.

There's a little difference between making a false report of sexual molestation to officers of the law and telling a lie in general, don't you think?

Honest to God this thread is making my head hurt.

x(

[CBGLuthier]

159. I kind of feel sorry for this kid

Sounds like not one adult in the world treated him right. Not saying the abuse happened but since it was his stepson and not her stepson and well if you read all the threads there is a lot of vindictivness about all this.

Sounds like this kid was figuratively fucked from the day he was born.

I don't give a shit what the threats of punishment are. I would never plead guilty to something like this if I was not guilty. But that's just me. Sorry, but I am not buying the story here.

From the sounds of things, it's the registry system that has the OP upset. I guess if all this happened just a year earlier it would have been no big deal.

[Occulus]

165. You're actually wrong about that last

IIRC it was grandfathered in for people who had been tried, convicted, and served their sentences years ago; it wasn't for just new convictions, but for ALL convictions, past and present. It was and is an ex post facto law.

If the kid's mom abused him before she and my man met, well, it was far enough back that the child himself turned abusive, to the point of telling my man that he (the stepson) was going to cut his throat in the guy's sleep. Yet, he climbed up on the couch to lay next to him while the guy was sleeping? And his mom "happened" to walk in at that moment? Come on.

It was a truly messed up situation.

Oh, and: the urge to "make it all go away" by pleading guilty can be very strong when you're being told you could serve 25 years in a state prison for n.o.t.h.i.n.g.

He wasn't informed of the registry's existence when he pled guilty; it had just been passed something like mere weeks or even days prior. That could well have been the dealbreaker, had he known about it at the time.

[ultraist]

170. Having read the thread...

I'm still a bit confused on what happened so I wont comment on the specific case but I have a few comments.

*I agree with those who said NO registry for the children who make false accusations. Victims already face enough hell from the accusers and the system. A registry or the threat of being placed on a registry would further exacerbate this problem.

*A large percentage of victims do not report the crime due to shame, humiliation and re-victimization by the system. If anything, we need systems to alleviate this.

*Child molesters who rape children who are family members RARELY get charged. We are far too lenient on molesters.

*Children should NOT be punished as adults.

[Occulus]

176. Then what SHOULD happen?

There are still people in jail for sex crimes that their children have later come forward and said it was all a lie. THOSE PEOPLE DON'T GET RELEASED.

The "logic" is stunningly convoluted:

The kid sticks to their story, we lock you up; offenders always lie about it. The kid recants, we can't release you; the child is merely "feeling remorse".

Can anyone here point to an *individual* case (not the thing with the daycare in MA; I'm looking for individuals, not groups) in which the child came forward saying it was all a lie, and the accused/convicted gets released?

State laws should ALWAYS contain provisions for expunging or overturning the convictions based on evidence that the conviction was unjust or wrongful, but people are VERY reluctant to apply that basic common sense to sex offenses.

WHY? Are we for some reason afraid we may be wrong about a sex offense conviction? Are we really THAT horrified by such crimes, that we are willing to allow the wrongfully convicted to remain convicts, just to satisfy our sense of "justice"?

Are we somehow afraid of being wrong?

[ultraist]

185. There are processes a falsely convicted person can go through

We have an extensive appeals process as well pardons. If new evidence comes to light, (ie, a recanting by the accuser) this info will be brought into a new trial.

Certainly, some innocent people are not able to get out from under a conviction, our justice system is not perfect. But a registry system for children is not the solution to help the innocent who have been convicted.

Interesting, that on one hand you are proposing a system that would victimize innocent Children (kids who get falsely put in the registry), the same system you claim is victimizing your husband. How can you promote a system that at the same time you are condemning it ?

Few questions about your case:
Why didn't your husband appeal? Did this child ever recant? How old was the child when he made the accusation? Why did you mention the county is bigoted, is your husband Black, Hispanic, or openly Gay? If so, do you think he was discriminated against for being a minority?

[Occulus]

190. Answers.

"Why didn't your husband appeal?" He pled guilty; doing so allowed him to retain joint legal custody of the daughter he and his wife at the time had between them. They used his daughter against him to secure a guilty plea. He was told if he didn't plead guilty he was facing 25-30 in Jackson State Penn (a lie told to him by his lawyer to further secure a plea; unsurprising given that at the time there was a point system in place in the Oakland Cty. court system based on the number of convictions secured.)

Appeals are not possible when pleading guilty.

It is telling, isn't it, that a man who pled guilty to CSC 2nd degree retained joint legal custody? You'd think they wouldn't let him anywhere near her... if they didn't already know, deep down, that there was no offense in the first place, that is.

"Did this child ever recant?" No... he got in trouble with the law- assaults and drugs, I believe- and last I knew was in juvenile detention. Great kid.

edit: this kid and his mom will NEVER recant. They both HATE the guy they accused, mostly because they aren't still getting something out of it. They don't like that he didn't do jail time, they know they can do nothing more, and they hate him for it.

"How old was the child when he made the accusation?" 12.

"Why did you mention the county is bigoted, is your husband Black, Hispanic, or openly Gay? If so, do you think he was discriminated against for being a minority?" He's gay, I'm gay, we all have a gay old time. His stepson was calling him a fag throughout.

[ultraist]

196. So, he plead guilty

It sounds as though they didn't know he was Gay, so unlikely discrimination was involved.

12? You want to punish a 12 year old you think made false accusations? If the kid wasn't molested, this situation is the fault of some adult, not a 12 year old kid.

I'd consider the info others have provided in these posts. Children rarely make these type of false accusations, perps usually lie. What 12 year old BOY wants to admit to being molested by a man?

Furthermore, criminal charges are rarely brought in these types of cases (family members). They are usually handled by Child Protective Services, ONLY. Yet, your husband, is totally innocent even though he was sleeping on the couch with a 12 year old boy. Something is off here. Sorry. I hope for the kid's sake and your husband's sake that it didn't happen, but something about this seems fishy.

[Occulus]

201. The child approached HIM while the man was SLEEPING.

The child got up on the couch, ALL ON HIS OWN, and then called in Mom when the EEEVVVVIL handflop happened. It was a setup.

The child got up on the couch, EVEN THOUGH he hated his stepdad. EVEN THOUGH he had made threats to the stepdad's life. EVEN THOUGH the stepdad was saying he'd send the kid off to a military academy if the kid's behavior didn't improve. EVEN THOUGH the kid was constantly mouthing off to him.

The kid, AND the mom, wanted the stepdad GONE, and they knew if they got him convicted it would be an easy way to get him out. Further, the wife knew if that happened, she'd waltz off with everything in the divorce- which is precisely what happened.

She and her son got everything they wanted out of this. It was a setup.

[dsc]

261. actually new facts often can't be the subject of appeals

One can only appeal based on legal errors. Most new facts aren't legal errors. In this case the man pled guilty but even if he hadn't, new facts alone wouldn't get an appeal.

[ultraist]

274. How do convicts get new trials based on new DNA evidence?

Perhaps it's not through the appeals process but we've all read about the cases where the convict gets a new trial based on new DNA evidence.

If the child recanted, it seems he could get a new trial based on new evidence.

[dsc]

301. Either it falls in the window

or some legal error is found, such as not testing for DNA in the first instance.

[ultraist]

378. I was referring to cases where the testing technology was not as advanced

as it is now, when the case first went to trial. Cases such as this, where the accused was wrongfully convicted:

http://talkleft.com/new_archives/007550.html

Thursday :: August 12, 2004
DNA Frees Inmate After 22 Years in Prison
Wilton Dedge walked out of the Broward County Jail today, 22 years after being wrongfully convicted of rape. The reasons for his wrongful conviction: faulty eye-witness testimony and the testimony of a "notorious jailhouse snitch." The reason for his freedom: DNA testing proved his innocence:

How do these wrongfully convicted get new trials?

[dsc]

394. It depends on the state

and on the standards the state uses. I know of no state which will automatically overturn convictions based solely on a recantation. Most states also have a quite high standard for a new trial. And some states actually do have deadlines as to when new evidence will be considered. One state, Virginia, sets that deadline at 30 days though it has made an exception for DNA evidence.

[ultraist]

398. So it is possible to get a new trial based on new evidence

As I thought. It doesn't have to be only a legal error, correct? (Post conviction motion for a new trial).

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/genetics/dnamotions.htm

Post-Conviction DNA Motions
November 2003

Each state has its own set of procedural rules for post-conviction relief. These rules set the grounds upon which a new trial is available and the threshold that must be met in order to merit a new trial. In most states, the rules of criminal procedure require new evidence to be brought before the court within six months of the conviction. This potentially excludes offenders who were convicted before DNA testing was available but for whom such testing may now provide important evidence relevant to their case.

The potential for DNA to exonerate, as well as convict offenders has led to specific state statutes to allow for post-conviction DNA testing under certain circumstances, even after the convicted person has exhausted all of his/her appeals. The motions allowed and the processes being created under these new laws allow judges broader authority to order or admit DNA evidence in such cases. To date, 31 states have laws in place to provide for motions for post-conviction DNA testing.

[dsc]

402. basicly

though it should be noted that in the case discussed on this thread most states would require the recantation to be within 6 months. Even then, the appeal could still be denied.

[Pithlet]

212. So

Being against the registry must only mean that we're willing to allow the wrongfully convicted to remain convicts? It's either draconian measures or nothing at all? Registries designed to humiliate are the ONLY answer? There's no other solution? I don't understand your reasoning here.

I honestly don't know why you framed this whole thing the way you did. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone at DU who advocates for punishing innocent people, or who would advocate that nothing be done about false accusations. If you'd stated your case in a straightforward manor, I'd bet you'd have found tons more sympathy. Did you decide instead to post an absolutely ludicrous and draconian suggestion as the solution, and then paint anyone who rightfully bristles at such an idea as being unsympathetic to the falsely accused? Because that's what it looks like. It makes no sense.

[fishwax]

260. well said, Pithlet

There are MANY things that are perplexing about this thread, but why it was framed in this manner is near the top of the list. As I've been reading through the responses, I've been thinking exactly what you've said: "If you'd stated your case in a straightforward manor, I'd bet you'd have found tons more sympathy." Why are people who are admittedly trying to be provocative then surprised when people are provoked? :shrug:

[bertha katzenengel]

186. "Why shouldn't THEY be on a registry as well?" my answers

1. because they are children and usually not legally responsible for their actions; molesters are adults and are responsible

2. because the harm they could potentially cause to an adult's life can't come remotely close to the cause a molester brings to a child's life

3. because an adult is infinitely better equipped to recover from false accusations than a child is to recover from molestation

4. because a child making false accusations can be taught not to do so; an adult harming a child is going to keep doing it at every opportunity

5. because a child making a false accusation against Man A may be speaking out about molestation taking place at the hands of Man B -- the kid's afraid of Man A but can't keep it in. Accusations MUST be taken seriously and be thoroughly and fairly investigated. (And again, see # 1)

None of this is to say that falsely-accused adults are not harmed.

IMO your premise is patently absurd.

[Occulus]

193. Everything you said falls apart when it's INTENTIONALLY FALSE.

The situation we're in is a situation in which the child told intentioally false accusations with his mother's and grandmother's help. They both (we believe) coached him on just exactly what constitutes a "sex offense", so he could make an accusation that would just barely float in court- enough to get him out of the house for good, and get him (the stepson) and his mom everything out of it.

As far as I'm concerned, the stepson and ex-wife committed a crime, not the guy that eventually pled guilty.

Those two destroyed his life far, far more than the "victim" had to "suffer", in this case.

As far as I'm concerned, in this case, there was NO victim and NO suffering. Hence my OP question: should kids who intentionally lie about sexual abuse be punished just as those who actually abuse are punished?

All the kid needed to say was "I'm not sure he was really asleep" and POOF! you have grounds.

I can't believe there are people who don't think it is easy to wrongfully accuse. Obviously, it is. ALL you need is a consistent story that you can repeat and never deviate from.

[bertha katzenengel]

204. I'm not applying what I said as a cure-all or a legal tome for these

kinds of situations. But again: a child isn't legally responsible for his actions.

I am sorry for what's happening in your life. If I felt qualified to comment further I'd say it's adult coaching the child, not the child, who should be held fully accountable. And get the child some help, if not a foster home. No kid should have to be so manipulated.

[ultraist]

210. Wrongfully accused is one thing

Getting wrongfully CONVICTED is yet another. What percentage of those convicted of child molestation are innocent?

It sounds like your husband made a really poor decision by pleading guilty, IF it's true that the only evidence against him was the word of a 12 year old concerning one iffy incident. Considering that it is common knowledge that it's very rare for someone to be wrongfully convicted of child molestation, he should have taken a gamble and gone to trial. The odds were very much in his favor.

[Occulus]

219. Yes, and you're right, but

try doing that when his lawyer wouldn't contact any character witnesses. A couple of them told me personally they were never contacted.

We've tried to find a lawyer to sue the lawyer for damages, but that just doesn't happen here. Nobody would take the case. That bar association is a pretty tight good ol' boys club, at least when it comes to civil suits against their own. Not to mention his guilty plea still stands and cannot be expunged.

If I were to go out on a limb (as if I haven't already) I'd say the judge and prosecutor are at fault as well.

[Ladyhawk]

194. As a child who was sexually abused, but not believed,

I find your post to be in poor taste. So, besides having a large percentage of adults not believe me, you would have had them put a scarlet "L" on my breast as well?

[Occulus]

199. Which is in poorer taste:

saying that some kids do indeed intentionally lie about being abused, or saying someone should be punished for 25 years based solely on a child's say-so?

edit: I was speaking of children who intentionally lie about it in order to receive personal gain, either in the form of getting a hated parent out of the house, or (in our case) a greedy and vindictive spouse who wanted her husband gone and still retain all posessions.

But I was speaking to intentional lies regarding false accusations of sexual abuse, and nothing more.

[noiretextatique]

206. your situation notwithstanding

and i truly sympathize, but some perspective is necessary. the big problem your husband is facing, and correct me if i'm wrong, is the registry law, not the false accusation, per se...is that right? of course the accusation is at the source of the issue, but if i read your post correctly, the registry law the thing that is making your life hell now, because regardless of the circumstances (and i know they weren't optimal), he did accept a plea bargain.

some kids do lie...people have told you that figure is around 2%. it follows then that kids who don't lie and aren't believed may in fact be a larger problem than those who falsely accuse.

and finally...if you want sympathy, you should learn how to give it.

[Occulus]

214. Well, now.

"and finally...if you want sympathy, you should learn how to give it."

Whoever said I was being unsympathetic? Am I supposed to have sympathy for poor, "victimized", LYING kids?

Look, those who really have been sexually abused have my deepest sympathies for what they've gone through. I do know what abuse feels like, given that I myself was emotionally abused by both my parents for nearly two decades, ending in them throwing me out and cutting of my education when they found out I was gay. But that's a whole other story, and one I won't go into detail about here.

People have TOLD me the figure is around 2% of abuse cases, but that is 2% too damn much. a twelve-year-old should know better. I submit they tell such lies because they know exactly what the result will likely be.

That brings me to another question: where do kids get the idea that they can "get rid of" an adult by saying they "touched them"? Just where do some kids come up with that idea?

[noiretextatique]

223. dupe

[noiretextatique]

224. dupe

[noiretextatique]

225. the 2% of kids who lie vs. 98% of those who don't

most likely have some other issues going on, would you say? in the case this 12 boy, per your account, he was influenced by his mother and grandmother, yet you seem to focus you anger on him. frankly, i think it is strange that you continue to do that, especially since you you first-hand how adults can manipulate and abuse children.

as to whether or not a 12 year old should know better, i can't say for sure that he didn't. perhaps he acted out spite or was influenced to lie by his mother, but whatever the case, it's still a *relatively* rare occurence. i know that isn't much solace to you.

as to why the 2% of false accusations work, we live in a twisted society that refuses to deal with sex or abuse or anything rationally...but we tend to freak out when abuse rears its head, as if it's the first time we've ever heard of it. some kids learn how to manipulate and to lie because they see the dissonance and hypocrisy, and some are manipulative liars. sociopaths, like george bush, show those tendencies at young ages.

a young woman (16 years old) in my church's had been making advances to some of the female choir members recently. most gathered that she was troubled and steered clear of her, but she latched onto to one woman and started harrassing her. this woman finally outed her to the choir director and a big old mess ensued. since everyone knew this girl was a bit off, they had no trouble believing she was the one stalking the grown woman, but the woman still felt uncomfortable enough with the situation that she decided not to come back to church.
some are probably suspicious of her decision, but i can understand it. she felt the powers that be knew that girl was out-of-control for a long time and just ignored it
i have another friend who runs a daycare business...she is terrified that the parents might find out she is gay, just because of how ignorant people can be about their kids.
i live in oakland, ca where gay people can live fairly openly, but that with that openness brings a whole 'nother set of challeges.
even here, one has to be careful.

i hope something happens to make your lives better. maybe the kid will wake up and do the right thing eventually.

anyway...time to leave work :rofl: so, take care...and do think about addressing the anger issue. peace.

[Ladyhawk]

249. How would you feel if I had been put on a list of lying children for

25 years and had not lied?

[Bluerthanblue]

277. ABSOLUTELY

NOT!-

double your pain, and loss of 'trust' not only by having a person who is supposed to be 'responsible'- or 'trustworthy' betray you- but have your trust destroyed even further by being told what you lived through never happened, and then TRIPLE that by 'regestering' you- (me too)

That 'T' word- once lost, stolen, or trampled is extreemly hard to repair, and leaves a person with INCREDIBLE hurdles in life-

no, no regrestry, no L - ADULTS are 'responsible' for raising kids who should enter into adulthood with all the tools possible to succeed- this world is hard enough to manuver through even with the 'healthiest' of childhoods-

this is a real 'trigger subject for me-' NO, Ladyhawk- no shame- no guilt, no doubt.

Children sometimes believe that there ARE things 'worse than death'- at very young ages. That shouldn't be true- ever. but it goes on... still

[ieoeja]

202. My Personal Anecdotes (then I go home)

I knew a gal in college who was raped and was told by the police not to press charges because:

1. It was in a fraternity. Since it is widely known that rapes occur frequently in frats, any jury they get will include people who believe any woman going into a frat was asking for it.

2. It was in a fraternity whose alumni combined have more money than most countries. This small college town can't compete.

Please note: the police were simply telling her of the reality of the situation. They were not suggesting nothing SHOULD be done. They were saying nothing COULD be done (a couple years later someone burnt down a frat in town killing several members inside because they had gang-raped his girlfriend; so something COULD be done, just not anything the police could condone).

I knew another gal in college who claimed just about every weekend she was raped. She often came back from such rapes looking extremely happy and satisfied. And guilt free since the sex with her boyfriend was non-consensual. So she was still "a good girl".

I knew a gal after college who was beaten and raped by her husband on more than one occasion. Unlike the (lying piece of shit) above, this gal really was beaten and raped. But she believed in submitting herself to her husband's will. Which I suppose makes it legally consensual and, therefore, not rape in the eyes of the law.

I know the gal I was married to had been raped through independant verification ("did it ever occur to you that your little sister misdirects her hate towards you because she took your place in your stepfather's bed when you ran away from home?"). But I also know a lot of her claims were not. So I no longer know which stories to believe (except the stepfather as her sister acknowledged my suposition above). And I really wish that were otherwise as I would like to be able to trust her. I blame damage from the real evil for her delusions about further evils.

So, bottom line, rapists get away with it A LOT. A LOT of people make false accusations. Both are horrible things.


Regarding an earlier post that "better a thousand guilty go free than a single innocent be jailed" that is actually a fairly famous quote (by Madison, I think) and is the very cornerstone of the concept "innocent until proven guilty". While this is the rock upon which the US judicial system has been built, I am not a conservative who feels that tradition trumps right and wrong. However, I happen to agree with that statement fervently. I've read someone's (again, I believe it was Madison's) reasoning, and I know I should look it up because he was a heck of a lot better than me at this. But I think it was something like this:

A criminal does what he does knowing it is against the law, but that there is no guarantee he will be caught. If there is no guarantee that obeying the law will keep a man out of prison, then why should anyone obey the law?

There is even evidence to support this rationale. A lot of African-American activists have, for instance, suggested this as the reason for the high crime rate among blacks. So many innocents among them have been jailed over the decades simply because they were the first black man the cops happened upon after a crime, that many young black men see no point in obeying the law.

[smartvoter]

211. Why is this a flame fest? People who abuse or falsely accuse both

do damage.

How did this become an either-or flame fest?

Sometimes this place is really astounding.

[Pithlet]

213. It became a flame fest

because of the proposed solution. Putting children on a punishment registry? Children?! Come on.

[Occulus]

217. It got us to talk about it, didn't it?

"It" being the whole issue. And I don't know that it's entirle such a ridiculous thought, because those who HAVE been wrongly accused and/or convicted of such crimes can attest to how much real damage it does. I'm not talking purely psychological damage, either; this is about being legally restricted from certain professions, this is about being legally forbidden from living in certain areas, this is about not being able to get a job at all.

You might be able, eventually, to deal with abuse you yourself have suffered. You might be able to internalize it, to make yourself stronger in the long run for having dealt with it. Or, you might fall apart, emotionally collapsing like a deflating balloon.

However-

You can't "get over" the law. If you've been falsely convicted, or pled guilty under pressure, or whatever it was that got you on the registries for unjust reasons, you're stuck. You can't "get over" being legally forbidden from getting the job you've trained in. You can't "get over" your name, photo, description, and address (of both you and anyone living with you) being on the internet registry. You can't "get over" being told you can't live in Apartment Complex X because it's too close to a school.

THINK, people!

There's no "getting over" it if you're in that position. There's no "healing process". All there is is over two decades' worth of watching your back, taking little crap jobs just to get by (because you're forbidden under law from working in what you know).

McDonald's wouldn't even hire my husband. McDonald's. And they hire everyone.

He can't even work for a temp agency. They won't consider his application. They've all- ALL- told him as much.

Two years ago, the lieutenant governor of MI told him if he wanted to qualify for job training he would have to commit a crime. I was on the other line and heard him say it. My jaw hit the floor.

This wrongful conviction was a life-destroying event, and he's legally forbidden from "getting over it". Just this week, it was announced there will be offered registry email alerts- meaning that everyone who lives here could be passively informed that a convicted sex offender lives here.

Charge a child as an adult? Come on.

Yet we do that, daily. Where is the difference?

[LisaL]

220. What's the difference? The children are charged as adults

when they commit serious crimes, such as murder, etc. Your husband had plead guilty. If he was innocent but plead guilty, then it's pretty sad, but he still did plead guilty. Which means that in the eyes of the law, the child had told the truth-what are you going to charge him with?

:eyes:

[Pithlet]

229. Because we do it daily doesn't make it right.

Charging children as adults is never right. For any reason. Because children are not adults.

And I don't know why you insist that anyone is arguing that no damage is done when people are falsely accused. Who the hell is arguing that?

I really do feel for anyone who is falsely accused of sexual abuse. Particularly sexual abuse. There are few things worse to be falsely accused of or are more ruinous to reputation. However, it doesn't excuse immoral and unethical measures that catch innocent victims it its net.

Yeah, it got talked about. But in no way that was even remotely constructive. All you seemed to do was put people on the defensive who didn't agree with your solution to this problem. I realize that this is an emotional issue for you. And I hope that it gets somehow resolved. And the ADULTS who are responsible are punished.

[smartvoter]

222. Only a registry that would come in to play during accusations. He wasn't

talking about throwing them in jail. Just a list identifying kids that use this kind of tactic to seek revenge on adults or attempts to extort money.

I have kids and just had a sex offender move to my neighborhood. I'm VERY grateful for this knowledge.

But this gets at the heart of so many problems around here. People don't offer constructive criticism, they ATTACK and ATTACK and it's just foolish.

If you don't like his suggestion, fine. But the discussion doesn't have to turn into a huge pile of dung because of it.

[Occulus]

226. "his"

I'm a he. Maybe I should pick up a pink triangle avatar or something...

[LisaL]

228. Again, you can't put anyone into a registry, especially a child,

if you can't prove the accusations were false. If it's hard to prove that the molestation occurred, how are you going to prove that the accusations were false?

[smartvoter]

235. I know. I'm not necessarily for it, just think the reaction was loopy. n

[Pithlet]

232. Sorry

But I think we have the right to point out when a solution offered is immoral and unethical. The idea of putting kids on a registry for any reason is horrible. The fact that they aren't also thrown in jail is no consolation. I saw plenty of constructive criticism offered in this thread. And it was countered with accusations that the person doesn't care about the innocent accused.

If it is any consolation to you, if I ever post a ludicrous suggestion that I expect that I'll get the response I'm due. I'm sorry. But suggesting a crime registry for CHILDREN deserves the response in this thread that it got. Some ideas are stupid. Stupid should get called on.

[smartvoter]

239. See. This is the issue. "Stupid" is subjective. I don't think it's

practical myself, but he's pointing out a problem and potential solution.

At any rate, I'm not going to engage in a war with you over this.

That would be "stupid."

[Pithlet]

243. Fine

Stupid is subjective. I subjectively state that the idea of putting children on a registry is stupid. And there is nothing wrong with my doing so. Anyone who thinks punishing children for ever and ever for things they did that were more than likely coerced by adults can be free to disagree with me.

I didn't want to get into a war, either. I responded to your response to me, insinuating that my responses have been unwarranted. This is a politcal message board.

[smartvoter]

244. Fair enough. nt

[blondeatlast]

236. The OP isn't new to DU, not by a long shot.

He offered an item for debate--and agreed, it's gotten a bit rough, but it should have been expected.

I have no sympathy for the OP reagrding the way the thread has gone. I've more than once asked, and been granted, a lock on a thread I started.

And a baiting post about children is bound to raise a few hairs. There's a lot of parents on DU, though many like to pretend there aren't.

As we've seen, there's also a lot of child abuse victims.

[smartvoter]

242. I know. But it's not just this. Wars erupt every day in the same way. nt

[Rabrrrrrr]

265. No, it became a flamefest when a few hyper-emotional

people refused to see and hear what the actual issue at hand is, which is - what to do with kids who make patently false accusations.

These hyper-emotional people decided that they didn't want to read what was being written, because they have their own soapboxes and pet issues, and decided that what the original post said was "children are liars, we shouldn't trust any of them when they say they've been abused."

These are the same hyper-emotional, irrational, pet-issue people who when they read something that says "My meal was ruined by a loud child in a restaurant" they somehow manage to read it as "I hate children, they suck, they should be locked up."

Or the same people who when they read "remember, though, that men are also sometimes sexually abused" are so irrational and keyed up that what they read is "women who are sexually abused don't count because THERE'S AN EPIDEMIC OF MEN BEING SEXUALLY ABUSED!!!!!"

Which, of course, in all these instances, what the hyper-emotional person reads is stuff that no one actually said.

This thread is premised on one thing, and that one thing is a fact: sometimes kids lie about being sexually abused.

Any sane, rational, reasonable person would have to say "Yes, that is true, and it is horrible, and there should be something in place to help the falsely accused."

But this turned into a flame fest because of a few utterly irrational people who insist on reading that statement as "all children lie, never trust them" and felt the need to counter with the equally irrational idea of "who cares if this happening, because child abuse is serious!!!"

of course it's serious. Duh.

I wish people would actually read and try to comprehend instead of just deciding what a topic must be about based on their own irrationality and knee-jerk reactionism to certain words, no matter what the context is.

[Pithlet]

278. The title of the post

was bullshit. The post was about creating a registry for chidren who allegedly lied about sexual abuse. There is no way to pretend that it was about anything other than that. If the words of the post are not enough to convince you, then the fact that he continually defended the concept of the registry should be enough. The idea that he is being persecuted is ludicrous. He posted an idea that is at best controversial. He was called on it. As he should have been. The appropriate respone for him and his defenders would have been to defend the idea. Instead, they have tried to turn this into an attack on him. It is reprehensible. People who disagree with the registery don't care about the falsely accused! Ridiculous.

If you're going to champion an idea, then you should have the courage of your convictions to stand in the face of criticism. If you find yourself resorting to complaints about mean people are, that is NOT an indication that people are mean. It is an indication that either you have done a bad job of defending your idea, or that you have a bad idea. You'd be better served trying to figure out which rather than spending your time complaining about how mean people are to you.

If you're going to complain about hyperemotionalism? What that tells me is you have no defense of the idea. In general, the more you complain about emotionalism and how people are being mean, the less you actually have to say about the issue in question. Ideas have consequences. Ideas can do real harm. You cannot expect people to ignore those consequences or that harm when they're discussing the issues. If you do not like people pointing out those consequences and that harm, then you have no business debating the issue in the first place. No one is responsible for making sure your feelings are not hurt when you bring up a controversial idea. If you or anyone else is going to suggest that children should be punished for the rest of their lives, then you should expect to see people react strongly to that issue. The problem is NOT with the people who are reacting.

As for the rest of your post. Provide examples. Because what I see is someone who so despearately wants to discount the opinions of other people that they are not willign to do the heavy lifting that an intelligent argument requires. Instead, they merely use smears and accusations of bad behavior in order to get away from the fact that they cannot prove their case. This is a message board. If such activity that you claim took place, it shoud be a matter of moments for you to find examples of what you are saying.

[Pithlet]

299. Another response.

I just want to make clear that I now realize that the OP was not seriously suggesting a lying child registry, but was rather clumsily trying to make the point that all such lists are bad. I think it would have been much clearer had he not gone on to defend his pseudo suggestion. Or lay the blame on the 12 year old boy instead of where the blame REALLY lies. That kind of lended credibility to the notion that he was serious about such a registry.

The fact is, there are all kinds of crazy things suggested on the internet every day, including here at DU. It is not out of the realm of possibility that such a list would be seriously suggested. And since it wasn't clear at all at first that his suggetion wasn't serious, and many of his posts appeard to be defending it, it was very easy to miscontsrue everthing.

I still think the rest of your post is wrong. I don't think that everyone who disagrees with youor doesn't see things exactly has you do is hyperemotional and isn't reading things the right way.

[redqueen]

365. You've gotta be frickin kidding.

No one said it isn't a problem, and many said to punish those who cajoled the kids into lying if they were manipulated, or yes, punish the teens who lie on their own, fine. Nobody said 'who cares'.

You didn't read my post too well upthread, either, so I guess finding you read the whole thread pretty poorly shoudn't be too shocking.

hahaha... I wish people would actually read and try to comprehend as well, and think hard before posting their interpretations of what's been said.

[forgethell]

372. Damn, I wish

that I'd said it so well.

[fishwax]

383. Pot. Kettle. Black.

I don't think anyone said it wasn't a big deal or responded with the hyper-emotional filters that you identify (and seem to be exhibiting yourself). People responded very negatively to the idea, which was a poorly framed way of instigating a discussion about children who lie. Nobody claimed children never lie or that it wasn't a big deal when people are falsely accused.

I do agree with you about the way such things are often reacted to on DU, though, and people often do have a hard time seeing pet issues clearly. Thing is, that happens to people on both sides of most issues.

[JohnLocke]

218. Your husband is a child molester.

He pled guilty, he admitted it, and boo-fucking-hoo that he recants the confession now. I would never pled guilty to something I didn't do.

[Occulus]

221. You say that now.

Pray you are NEVER in this situation- it's very, very different when it's your own ass on the chopping block.

And never mind his own lawyer lied to him about how much time he was facing if he didn't plead guilty; that's just a minor detail. Oh, and forget about the prosecutor using the guy's daughter as custody-issue bait. Perfectly acceptable, and it happens all the time. And don't worry that none of his witnesses were contacted by his lawyer; that just happens and it's just ho-hum fine with us.

If you vote for a war based on lies told to you, can you then later recant your vote? Oh, sorry- it's ok to make a bad decision based on lies in one situation, but not in this one, because there's sexual abuse involved.

:sarcasm:

SHEESH!!!

[Born_A_Truman]

233. Maybe I missed something

but if your husband was asleep how did he know that he actually 'flopped the back of his hand' on the boy's groin?

*on edit=s/b 'your'

[Occulus]

234. It's what the kid said on the stand.

His hand was unmoving. The child said that on the stand as well.

At that moment, the judge should have broken in and dismissed the case. There was NO abuse there at all.

There was, however, a clever setup. In Michigan, at the time (not sure about now), among other things, one of the criteria for sexual abuse was touching a child anywhere between the knee and the groin. Another was when an authority figure was doing the touching.

He got nailed on both criteria.

[ultraist]

272. "the kid said on the stand" ??? You said it didn't go to trial

You stated that your husband copped a plea of guilty upon advisement from his attorney. Now, you are stating there WAS a trial.

Which was it?

[Sapphire Blue]

276. Thank you... I caught that a long time ago

[dsc]

302. They could be referring to grand jury testimony

[Sapphire Blue]

273. I must have missed something, too. I thought you said there was no trial

& the stepfather plead guilty. When did the stepson take the stand? What were the transcripts from?

[Freddie Stubbs]

318. That sound like grounds for a mistrial

Perhaps he should hire a new lawyer and appeal.

[blondeatlast]

230. This is such a painfully delicate issue that is part of a much larger one.

I'm not against divorce by any means, but I have seen so many bitter ones that I know the keds are scarred forever by them.

Pre-divorce counseling should be mandatory, IMHO.

For some people, one session might be enough. But the rage that is often present never stays hidden for long.

If it takes months, they need to settle reasonably amicably.

How to make it happen--I have no idea...

[donco6]

241. Sounds good to me.

"Stay away from me - I might accuse you of child molestation and ruin your entire life."

[lonestarnot]

248. This is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard of... children are liars

at times, but isn't this like nuts?

[IdaBriggs]

254. You & I have different views on this topic (& "discussed" already).

I still don't feel sorry for you or your partner. I live in Michigan, and my personal experience has been that prosecutors in Michigan are too busy to go after sex offender cases that aren't slam dunk beyond a reasonable doubt. If he went to trial, twelve reasonable people believed it; if he took a plea, that was also a choice, and choices bring consequences.

I don't know you in real life, and frankly, I don't want to know you in real life. I have no emotional involvement with you or your partner, and I have a vested interest in the safety of those I care about. My husband and I do not associate with murderers, rapists, child molesters or people who find nothing wrong with driving while drunk. This is our value system, and I am comfortable with it. Since we know people lie, especially when they have incentive to do so (note the public scorn heaped upon the above mentioned offenders), we do not take unnecessary chances with our safety (or those we love) by being "friends" with people who represent potential threats. I very much appreciate Sex Offender Lists so I can be aware of the dangers these people pose to me and mine.

Your partner has been labeled a potential threat to the safety of others. You have a vested interest in his happiness, with little concern demonstrated for that of others. You have agreed to live a risk filled lifestyle by associating with him (for example, if his "victim" decides to get revenge, you may get caught in the crossfire), and, as an adult, you are free to walk away from him at any point in time. You don't need my sympathy, you won't get my support, and since the religion I follow doesn't require my pretense for anything else, I'm not even going to bother wishing you luck. You think your partner is credible; I think you are naive and more than a little selfish. There are always two sides to every story, and "a sleeping set-up" sounds pretty ... well, let's just say that I'm going to be skeptical on the tales of woe and abuse anyone parades after a nasty break-up.

In another post you "pretend" to sanctimoniously "apologize" for loving a registered sex offender who is in that small minority of REALLY INNOCENT. In the meantime, you post stuff that is intended to stigmatize "lying kids" about a topic that you obviously know damn little about (except where you have an "innocent" guy in your home), which is pushing a hot button for those of us who have to deal with childhood sexual abuse issues for those we love (One out of Three Women; One out of Seven Men) FOR REAL.

Aren't you a charmer? :eyes:

[dsc]

255. I haven't read the whole thread

but I have read enough to get an idea of the general arguments. One important problem with false accusations that isn't being discussed is the way that those have changed the way teachers interact with children.

As a gay male who is also a teacher, I would never hug a male child for any reason. I won't be in a room alone with one. In today's culture where many children are fatherless, elementary students often do want to hug a male teacher. Sadly, we just can't do that. Children do need to be protected. Children's claims do need to be taken seriously. But sometimes they are wrong and most adults who teach don't abuse kids. We shouldn't deprive needy kids of affection at school and sadly that is happening now. There is a fine line here and right now I think we are on the wrong side of it. We used to be on the other wrong side of it. Both sides cause innocent kids problems.

Now I only teach high school since I no longer sub. I honestly don't know how I would react if a student came out to me and wished to have private counseling ( I am not openly gay down here) but I know I would have to be leary due to the fear of sexual abuse that has taken over teaching. I would likely do it, but if I didn't an innocent kid could be hurt.

[donheld]

264. Why shouldn't lying kids who bring this to adults who've done nothing

be equally punished? Because they are CHILDREN. You cannot expect kids to the same standards as adults.

[dsc]

268. tell that to the

children who are routinely tried as adults. If we can imprison children as young as 12 for life sentences then we could do this too. I don't think either is a good idea but we have given up on the juvie treatment thing.

[Pithlet]

279. I haven't given up

It's not worth giving up. But, maybe I'm just being hyperemotional (not a dig at you, but at another subthread in this thread).

[donheld]

280. I hear ya, dsc

:grr: i don't understand it. We apparently live in a throw away society. We even want to throw away our kids if they do something wrong. We don't bother with rehabilition for anyone.

[Vladimir]

304. No, for the exact same reasons that sex offenders shouldn't

be put on registers: it does nothing to help rehabilitation and feeds into ill-informed public hysteria on the matter. In fact I think it would positively destroy any chance of these kids integrating back into society.

[bleedingheart]

307. I think this is not a Yes and No issue

If the "child" is a 15 year old girl who accuses a teacher of touching her because she is failing her class, then I think she should be charged with filing a false police report.

However if the "child" is a 2-13 year old who is in the midst of a custody fight then I think that the child is a victim more than a criminal. Typically when a child makes up a story like that it is due in part to the fact that one of the parents is pushing this upon them. If it can be proven that the parent is the perpetrator of the "lie" then the parent should be punished.

[oldcoot]

384. I agree

A fifteen-year old child should know that it is wrong to make false accusations. However, a seven-year old child may not truly understand the consequences of what he or she is saying. An adult (a parent, prosecutor, or law enforcement official) could easily manipulate a small child into making false claims through promises or threats. In such a case, it is the adult should be punished and not the child.

[Qanisqineq]

374. I know a girl that lied about dad sexually abusing her

She was a brat and did it when he wouldn't allow her to go to some school dance, I believe. He ended up in jail and she wouldn't recant. He was in jail for a while and was on trial. She kept the story and he hung himself in jail. After it was over, she admitted it was a lie. I think she was suicidal or had to go to treatment or something because of how guilty she felt.

[Evergreen Emerald]

401. Sorry kgfnally--I don't buy it

The case that you describe could never have been charged because it does not meet the elements of child molestation:
--there has to be intentional touching (nothing inadvertant)
--it has to be for sexual gratification (not when asleep and accidently "flops" the hand over)
Otherwise: people who give their kids baths would be charged /doctors who do exams would be charged / people accidently touching someone's rearend on an escalater would be charged...your facts COULD NOT have been charged as there is not even sufficent probable cause to charge let alone convict beyond a reasonable doubt. Your husband is not telling the truth.

You have a vested interest in believing your husband. What is the alternative? That you married a child molester. Someone who, for sexual gratification, touched a child's privates.

He does what many convicted people do: minimize the incident / lie about what happened--after the fact.

I feel so sorry for your stepson. Your husband should have taken responsiblity for what he did, get help, and beg his son for forgivness. Instead: you and he call him a bigfatliar. You continue victimizing this kid who did nothing to deserve your rath.