What I've Learned on Free Republic -- And a Question on Religion

[Cats Against Frist]

I have a lot in common with libertarian conservatives, so, about two months ago, I signed up and I've been posting under a nickname, as a moderate conservative -- simply because I'm FASCINATED by the GOP, and how they've managed to create mind-bending false binaries and perpetuate them through the populace. We know that it's the hate radio, stupid -- BUT, BUT:

Some freepers are OK to talk to. There are people there who hate Bush, and there are people there who love evolution -- and there are lots and lots of moderates. This is not to say that there aren't your normal, run-fo-the-mill reactionaries, racists, fascists and googly eyed Bush supporters -- because they are. And though I've been posing as someone slightly more conservative than my real political orientation -- I'm both vocal, and stand up to the right-wing crazies, and I haven't gotten booted, yet -- and I've only been called a "liberal," one time.

All of this said, there are a few people on FR that really fucking scare me. They are the people who see "no problem" with the Patriot Act, who think that prayer should be mandated in public schools, who support the FMA, who cite Jesus -- while raging on about "towelheads," -- who imagine Jesus as a gun-toting superhero, who rage on and on about Terry Celery, but who want to put little brown children out in the streets.

As a careful and quiet observer, I've managed to piece together the one thing that they have in common. In almost every profile of someone who makes an INSANELY fascist comment, or makes a comment that would make the founders throw up, or someone who sticks their tounge so far up Bushler's ass that they're licking his teeth, or the ones who in a hysterical rant are going off about "commies" and "socialists," etc. -- they all USUALLY have an overly zealous shout out to "Godthehollyjesusfathercleansingmeofmylatenthomosexuality," or some other prop to a religious figure or a religious conservative. That prayer picture of Washington and Lincoln (isn't that supposed to be a joke) turns up a lot.

I know we have a lot of religious flame wars on here about whether it's delusional to believe in God -- but these people are about ten apples short the pie, if you know what I'm sayin'. Question is -- why is thier opinion on religion -- God as a vengeful, gay-hatin', Mo-hammed-destroyin', money-&-Big-Mac-Lovin' -- any more "delusional" than anyone who makes up their own religious narrative? I mean -- I like to think that I spearhead the "Gnostic-Buddhist Church of Jesus and Thomas Jefferson" (and, yes -- I think it's the 'ultimate truth' -- or as much as one can and be a postmodernist, at the same time :0)

What makes the freepnuts delusional, while people who worship trees and dirt "perfectly sane?" Or are we all crazy?

At any rate, I think that these people are DANGEROUS in a way that most left-wing religious people are not -- that fact aside -- what validates left-wing religion over right-wing religion?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

1. Jesus said something about this

Matthew 7:15-20
(15) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
(1)7 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
(1)] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

[Erika]

2. Excuse me?

What does religion have to do with our government?

[libertypirate]

3. It is perceived identity crisis, it is the same

as only being in their minds.


They can make a dumb, uncoordinated; jackass like Bush presidential then they can handle any perception.

They can create the perception that Bush won the election clear and fair.

They can create the perception that the government is functioning in a non-radical manor.

Hell they can make a tranny like mAnn Coulter the obsession of freepers everywhere.

It is sad what a tortured mind will believe.

They don't do this with facts, belief, or anything we can measure. They do it with emotion. They tie people to acting badly, doing the same as the others. However this time I think they went too far.

[Liberal Gramma]

4. It's called projection

We find the gods we need. If you are consumed by hate, you can bet that your god is also.

[TheFarseer]

5. I've thought about posting on FR

just to see how they would respond to my ideas, but the way that site is put together drives me crazy!

I think there are three basic camps of freepers: the first camp IS part of the RW machine that is driving our country straight to hell to drive up corporate profits(or thinks they are part of it) the second camp is in total denial that republicans are selling them out to corporations. The third camp KNOWS that they are being sold out, but somehow they think abortion and gay rights and condoms on cucumbers are even worse than the modern feudalism we seem to be headed towards.

[smartvoter]

6. That's an accurate assessment from what I've seen. nt

[DanCa]

7. My view on religion revolves on neutrality

I believe in treating everyone fairly regardless of stance on reproductive issues or orientation. I believe in a gentel quiet god who wants me to treat people in that matter. I believe in a god based in equality and reason and nature and not one of based on madness war and riches. And while I attend Episcopal Mass weekly and say my prayers nightly I think public prayer is tacky.
I really dont know whether I can validate your view point or not and I dont know if you would say am conservative or liberal. Lets just say that my skin bristels every time Jerry Fawell and others of his ilk insult my gblt friends on this board whom I love very much and that i want affordable health care and I am pro stem cell. So I dont know if you can say am right or left . What do you guys and gals think?

[TreasonousBastard]

8. It's not simply because they're wingnuts...

there's a feeling of entitlement with any group that feels it's been oppressed and when they are "breaking free of the chains," some will go off the deep end.

The extreme religious right has been marginalized (for good reason, I would add)for years, and now they have a public voice that, if not entirely respectable, is at least being listened to. And they have, for the first time in years, real access to power.

Expect to hear more of this nonsense for a while, and just hope they son't get more access to power than they have.

[Erika]

9. Karl Rove played them completely

and we now have the idiot Bush for four more years. And war, and depression, and economic disaster to the poor and the working class. We have a war without a reason, etc.

I'm feeling just so friendly to these poor oppressed people without a voice. Sarcasm off.

[TreasonousBastard]

15. Rove is given far too much credit..

for something that's natural in the US.

Look back in history at the Great Wakenings, the Millerites, William Jennings Bryan's populism...

Religious fervor and movements have a long history in this country, and when the founders added the Establishment Clause, they were already sick and tired of the religious battles we had been through as colonies. Pilgrims, Puritans, Quakers, Huguenots, Calvinists, Anabaptists, Jews, Lutherans, Catholics... the country was populated by people who came because they were persecuted at home, and all too often immediately started persecuting others.

If alive today, the founders would simply say, "See, we told you so."

[Psephos]

13. Thoughtful post n/t

[mia]

10. They and the Klan have the same thing in common

religious props - burning white crosses, wearing white robes to appear holy. I'll never forget the scene from a movie. I think it was Rosewood, where the Klan sang "Amazing Grace" before they set out to lynch someone.

It ruined a beautiful song for me.

[JDPriestly]

11. Doubt. Here is my take on your questions.

What validates left-wing (???, how about liberal???) people over right-wing religion. We liberal people understand that our ability to know God is very limited because we are limited by our senses. We can't see from great distances like eagles, detect scents like dogs or see the UV grid that guides the Monarch butterfly in its migration. To think that we, with our very limited sensory and spatial abilities (we can't physically escape the confines of this universe) can really know for certain what God is during this life is either ignorant or delusional.

I think most liberal religious people are aware of their inability as humans to be certain about God and the spiritual. We therefore approach faith and religion with a lot of humility, curiosity and wonder. We believe . . ., but we are ready and willing to recognize that our beliefs could be wrong no matter how sincerely we hope they are right We are prepared to modify and change our beliefs should we be proved wrong. That is why we question our beliefs so much. We are aware that the minute our minds are involved in feeling thinking and talking about what we believe, a human element that is incapable of defining or really knowing God makes whatever we say or decide imperfect and not completely true.

Liberals respect and seek to develop intellectual rigor and spiritual honesty. And if you acknowledge the value those two qualities, chances are you will decide you are a liberal when you grow up. That is why left-wing religious people are not so dangerous. We are not so absolutely sure that we are right. Because, when it comes to religion, no one is. No one can possibly know all the answers about God.

Are we all crazy? That's not the right question. Are we all incapable of knowing the answers to spiritual questions for certain. Yes. Trying to know God is like trying to go to another universe. We just aren't made to do that. So we do the best we can, we theorize about it, and everyone has their own theory. No two people have the same religion. We think of Catholics as sharing the same religion. But, as I have learned living in various parts of the world, if you talk to two Catholics, you will find that each of them has their own unique religion in fact. And if you compare Catholicism in Italy to Catholicism among the Indians of the Southwest, you will be surprised at the difference. In a way, nobody's religion is crazy and everybody's religion is crazy. Religion is just an attempt . . . .

[Psephos]

12. I hope you're wearing your asbestos bathrobe.

You'll need it. :-) That's a brave post. You are almost certainly going to get condescending or withering comments in this thread for asking that kind of question. (Remember, though, for every rude reply, there are at least ten respectful DUers who are reading, but not posting.)

Anyway, you're on my buddy list now...I want to read more of what you have to say.

I've gone to the freeper site and done the same thing as you - not to incite, but to study. As you also learned, one has to post there if one wants good research. When I've mentioned this research here previously, I was quite surprised to have gotten some replies that were truly nasty. It seems that political orientation is not the determinant of whether we treat each other with respect or cruelty. There are Stalinists on the freeper site who try to purge those they deem to be dissenters, and there Stalinists on DU who do the same thing. I've concluded that "the urge to purge" comes from absolute conviction that there is only one truth, that one has received that truth, and that one is morally obligated to proselytize that truth and prosecute apostates. In other words, it comes from the religious impulse.

As the U.S.S.R. proved, you can have a state religion with complete religious apparatus that is, nonetheless, explicitly atheist. In short, there is no need of a god to establish and promote a religion. What there is a need for is an orthodoxy that does not admit questioning, combined with an impulse to enforce the orthodoxy. This requires a priesthood. Both extremes of the political spectrum have such a priesthood. As Arthur Koestler observed in his seminal essay "The Yogi and the Commissar," as you move to the extremes of the political spectrum, the far left and the far right become increasingly alike. Same methods, same zealotry, same results. If you've never read this essay, check it out. You might also look into Eric Hoffer's slim book called The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements. If you're unfamiliar with him, Hoffer was a longshoreman who became a philosopher. Although his book is 50 years old, it is sparkling fresh with insights from a left perspective...but those insights apply equally to the zealot wings of both right and left.

Again, I laud your efforts in studying our political opponents.

Sun-tzu said it well in The Art of War, more than 20 centuries ago:

If you know the enemy
and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a
hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy,
for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will
succumb in every battle.

Keep asking those good questions. The very definition of "progressive" means to move forward. Asking questions is the only method that works. Not everyone will love you for it.

Peace.

P.S. To answer your question, "are we all crazy?" Yes...I wouldn't have it any other way. :-)

[Erika]

14. Excuse me again

What does religion have to do with our government? Is religious affiliation now a prerequisite for voting? Does it have anything to do with the government collecting my taxes? Tell me why religion should even be mentioned.