NO Inhofe, NOT under God

[Avalux]

He actually had the nerve to stand there and say that our founding fathers created this country as one nation under God. Funny, but I don't recall that phrase in the Constitution. I don't recall Christianity being sanctioned as THE religion of the United Sates of America by our founding fathers.

:banghead:

[mopaul]

1. give em' an inch, and they'll want it ALL

[PurityOfEssence]

10. each transgression is a precedent

THAT'S why they must be fought. The "so help me god" part of the oath sworn--or affirmed--by Senators is a creation of the Civil War. The godcrap at the end of the President's oath is tradition; Washington, although not a Christian, added this to the moment. It is not in the Constitution.

The soul of your post is so very, very true: tolerate "ceremonial deism", and it will be taken as precedent to shove more fantasy down our throats. There should be no PAID chaplains, any invocations should be done before official procedures, and there should be no expression of "god" (whatever the fuck THAT is) endorsed at any moment during the activity of government. Giving these toeholds just justifies the end result of the zealots: TOTAL CONTROL.

E pluribus unum is the motto of this country. Article one of the Bill of Rights states that "congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." This isn't about a particular religion, as godnuts would have it, it's about the CONCEPT. The concept of the existence of a god is not to be endorsed. It makes the rest of us inferiors, and it gives the believers a blank check to do as they please.

Believers in exclusive religions (that's most of them, by the way) DO NOT PLAY FAIR. Belief is inherently an act of anti-democracy, and it hates reproach. Even "nice" religions demand an assumption of aristocratic superiority, and that is something that even 18th century bumpkins could see as a problem.

[xchrom]

2. well, it's not like we didn't know they lied about everything.

inhofe knows that -- he's a liar.

[Coyote_Bandit]

3. Thank you

for acknowledging what an asshat Senator I have here in JOklahoma.

No doubt the local fundy mega churches have encouraged his views.

[SaveElmer]

4. Strict Constructionism on the 10 Commandments...

'Though shalt not Lie' is not one of them...so it's ok to do!

[Governor]

5. What did the Founding Fathers have to say about it?

I suggest he read the treaty of Tripoli if he thinks this nation was founded on the Christian religion.

Check out Article 11 and the fact that it was unanimously approved.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, haven seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Annals of Congress, 5th Congress
Article 1. There is a firm and perpetual peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary, made by the free consent of both parties, and guarantied by the most potent Dey and Regency of Algiers.

Art. 2. If any goods belonging to any nation with which either of the parties is at war, shall be loaded on board of vessels belonging to the other party, they shall pass free, and no attempt shall be made to take or detain them.

Art. 3. If any citizens , subjects, or effects, belonging to either party, shall be found on board a prize vessel taken from an enemy by the other party, such citizens or subjects shall be set at liberty, and the effects restored to the owners.

Art. 4. Proper passports are to be given to all vessels of both parties, by which they are to be known. And considering the distance between the two countries, eighteen months from the date of this treaty, shall be allowed for procuring such passports. During this interval the other papers, belonging to such vessels, shall be sufficient for their protection.

Art. 5. A citizen or subject of either party having bought a prize vessel, condemned by the other party, or by any other nation, the certificates of condemnation and bill of sale shall be a sufficient passport for such vessel for one year; this being a reasonable time for her to procure a proper passport.

Art. 6. Vessels of either party, putting into the ports of the other, and having need of provisions or other supplies, they shall be furnished at the market price. And if any such vessel shall so put in, from a disaster at sea, and have occasion to repair, she shall be at liberty to land and re-embark her cargo without paying any duties. But in case shall she be compelled to the land her cargo.

Art. 7. Should a vessel of either party be cast on the shore of the other, all proper assistance shall be given to her and her people; no pillage shall be allowed; the property shall remain at the disposition of the owners; and the crew protectedand succored till they can be sent to their country.

Art. 8. If a vessel of either party should be attacked by an enemy, within gun-shot of the forts of the other , she shall be defended as much as possible. If she be in port she shall not be seized on or attacked, when it is in the power of the other party to protect her. And when she proceeds to sea, no enemy shall be allowed to pursue her from the same port, within twenty-four hours after her departure.

Art. 9. The commerce between the United States and Tripoli; the protection to be given to merchants, masters of vessels, and seamen; the reciprocal right of the establishing Consuls in each country; and the privileges, immunities, and jurisdiction, to be on the same footing with those of the most favored nations respectively.

Art. 10. The money and presents demanded by the Bey of Tripoli, as a full and satisfactory consideration on his part, and on the part of his subjects, for this treaty of perpetual peace and friendship, are acknowledged to have been received by him previous to his signing the same, according to a receipt which is hereto annexed, except such as part as is promised, on the part of the United States, to be delivered and paid by them on the arrival of their Consul in Tripoli; of which part a note is likewise hereto annexed. And no pretense of any periodical tribute of further payments is ever to be made by either party.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Art. 12. In case of any dispute, arising from a violation of any of the articles of this treaty, no appeal shall be made to arms; nor shall war be declared on any pretext whatever. But if the Consul, residing at the place where the dispute shall happen, shall not be able to settle the same, an amicable referrence shall be made to the mutual friend of the parties, the Dey of Algiers; the parties hereby engaging to abide by his decision. And he, by virtue of his signature to this treaty, engages for himself and successors to declare the justice of the case, according to the true interpretation of the treaty, and to use all the means in his power to enforce the observance of the same.

Signed and sealed at Tripoli of Barbary the 3d day of Junad in the year of the Hegira 1211— corresponding with the 4th day of November, 1796, by

JUSSOF BASHAW MAHOMET, Bey.
MAMET, Treasurer.
AMET, Minister of Marine.
SOLIMAN KAYA.
GALIL, General of the Troops.
MAHOMET, Commander of the City.
AMET, Chamberlain.
ALLY, Chief of the Divan.
MAMET, Secretary.

Signed and sealed at Algiers, the 4th day of Argill, 1211—corresponding with the 3d day of
January, 1797, by


HASSAN BASHAW, Dey,
And by the agent Plenipotentiary of the United States of America,

JOEL BARLOW.

[Avalux]

6. Interesting -

I had never read that before - can't be any clearer (Art. 11). Thanks.

[0rganism]

11. Note that once a treaty is approved, it becomes the "Law of the Land"

Thus, not only is the USA demonstrably not founded on the Christian religion, the LAW OF THE LAND declared it to be so. And so it was, until the treaty was broken in 1801 and renegotiated in 1805, minus the contents of Article 11.

[Governor]

12. What it tells us...

Is that the founding fathers, who were definitely still around when this all happened, supported the idea that the nation was not founded on the Christian religion.
Adams himself read it aloud, proudly!

[Az]

7. All the god references permeating our culture came later

The motto they put in place for our nation was "Out of many, one." The only time religion tends to enter into our body politic is when some people wish to exclude other people.

Simply put this cannot be a free nation and both one nation under god. It's one or the other. If it's one nation then that includes all beliefs and peoples. If it's under god then start by tossing out 5 states just for the atheists. Then start parceling out land for the hindu, the pagans, and any other group that doesn't conform to their god.

[Taxloss]

9. It only appeared on the money in the 1950s.

In the McCarthyite panic.

The same is true of the UK's money; europhobes say "we won't have the Queen's head on bank notes!", forgetting that it only appeared there in the permissive 1960s.

[Old and In the Way]

8. Here is what our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based

Christianity:

<From another DUer whose name escapes me now>

Thomas Jefferson:
I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.
SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short

Jefferson again:
Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

More Jefferson:
The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

Jefferson's word for the Bible?
Dunghill.

John Adams:

Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?

Also Adams:
The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.
Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:

The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.
Here's Thomas Paine:

I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).

Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible).

It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.

Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance.

The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty.

Finally let's hear from James Madison:

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote:

Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.

These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

.....I wonder how many people know this? Because we were a free country, we allowed people to practice the religion of their choice. Sadly, a vocal minority has decided they have moral superiority over our secular lives. Well, not really...but they are cynical enough to use religion as their tool to maintain their corrupting power.