Which World Trade Center design do you prefer?

[UdoKier]

If you can only pic one or the other, Which World Trade Center design do you prefer?

The Libeskind "Freedom Tower" design.



The Triroc modified Twin Towers design.



http://www.triroc.com/wtc/

[trotsky]

1. What's "modified" about the Triroc design?

Looks like an exact copy to me!

[tk2kewl]

5. i think they added one more story

[UdoKier]

7. The smaller buidings are differrent, the buildings are offset by 300 feet

from where they originally were, leaving "footprints" for monuments, the windows are square rather than the narrow ones in the original design.

take a look at their website and you'll see.

http://www.triroc.com/wtc/

[trotsky]

23. Cool, thanks for that.

I once stayed at the Marriott WTC. I guess I kind of like the original design.

[KurtNYC]

2. Neither - I think the island needs more apartments

[UdoKier]

12. The new WTC is going to have residential space.

nt

[foo_bar]

49. that's a recipe for insomnia

Not to mention the "stake in your heart" feng shui.

[UdoKier]

57. Sorry, I should have clarified - The Trump plan includes residential.

I don't think the Libeskind plan has any residential space in the main tower.


I could sleep there.


But I'm sure I couldn't afford it.

[underpants]

3. The "Freedom Tower" reminds me of that thing on the Zeppelin album

What album was that there was this white object that has in the middle of a series of pictures.

[Beetwasher]

6. "Presence"

n/t

[underpants]

16. Yap thanks-it was black not white my bad

[Beetwasher]

18. The Concept Was

That the "thing" in every picture was actually NOT present, it was actually an absence. Thus the name "presence".

[underpants]

20. Oh

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3281325&mesg_id=3281325

[tk2kewl]

4. neither

Leibskind is an ass and has no real artistic ability; his idea of symbolism, for god's sake, is building a "freedom tower" 1776 ft tall.

The original towers were dull.

There are so many incredible architects on the planet, why cant we have a real competition?

[Sugarcoated]

10. I think they're both fugly as hell

[12345]

24. i wish that "neither" were an option.

they're both lousy, but i'd pick the silly liebskind one over a copy of the originals. copies are just that. they never live up to the originals. and, the originals, while symbolic, weren't good designs. i think they need a gesture to the past with a vision for the future. the late Samuel Mockbee had a good idea to leave the void of the former towers (foundations and all)as a remembrance while building a bigger and better building(s).

[pbartch]

8. I don't live in NYC but I have an opinion.

I think they should be 2 towers as before......BUT MAKE THEM MUCH SHORTER. Cut the height down by about 1/3.

[skypilot]

9. Definitely the "Freedom Tower" design, although...

...I really wish they'd call it something else. At any other time in history "Freedom Towers" would be just fine but the Bush administration has just cheapened the words freedom, liberty and democracy through sheer cynical overuse.

[CBGLuthier]

11. neither also except

There should not be buildings there.

Just a simple and elegant memorial.

[jojo54]

13. The Freedom Tower design

I think the Triroc is too much like the old one and would be a reminder to those who lost loved ones. IMHO.

[BattyDem]

14. I really miss the Twins ...

I remember a letter to the local newspaper that said, "With the Twin Towers gone, it looks like New York City is missing its two front teeth."

That always stuck in my head because it's true ... silly, but true. :-)

[DrDebug]

15. How about a peace park?

Edit: Picture failed to show

[cire4]

50. I'll second that recommendation...

[TheWraith]

17. The Twins, absolutely.

The "Freedom Tower" design is ugly, stupid looking, and badly named. Restoring the TTs would be much better.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

19. I used to be against ANY reconstruction of the Towers.

I felt originally that it would be important to remember.

Unfortunately, like everything else, the Bushbots have so tainted 9/11 to their own ends, that the best thing we can do is forget it ever happened. So while I love the first one, the second one looks like the originals... so put those up and let the healing begin (it has NOT yet happened).

[Endangered Specie]

21. I still think they should put up buildings that resemble the originals.

and should only be different in that they are built according to current standards with modern materials and techniques, but should look the same (=height, 110 floors, same windows).

Im probably in the minority, but I feel that building exactly (or close to it) what was there before is the best way to remember the victims.

[UdoKier]

35. This one's artistic, anyway...

[marions ghost]

62. this proposal captures the spirit

of the Towers while not literally, ploddingly, re-creating them. The spiraling network is elegant, yet still implies strength. Not sure of the meaning of the "connective tissue" in the middle there...any idea? This could be a meaningful sculptural statement, a fitting tribute. When I look at this I feel connections--to the sky, to the past, to the future, to the transcendent spirit. It's also very much in keeping with the vertical nature of NYC. But all that empty real estate...I'm sure that doesn't appeal to the Donald Trumps of the world.

[TeeYiYi]

22. If I have to choose from these two . . .

. . . I'll take the Libeskind "Freedom Tower" design, but I don't like it. It's too pointy. Too sharp and threatening. Negative Chi — BAD Feng Shui.

TYY

[marions ghost]

66. agreed

I'm not wild about the extreme spike either. It does seem kind of menacing.

But let's face it, there aren't too many options in skyscrapers with a relatively small footprint. You either go straight up and flat like the Towers, or straight up with an angled top, or stepped or pointed at the top. There are so many design constraints in this type of building, and not a lot of leeway except for the possible illusion of "twist."

[ConfuZed]

25. Talk about an ORIGINAL design...

:sarcasm:

[MXMLLN]

26. ... and the Twin Towers are more original ? n/t

[jayctravis]

46. Your (the second) picture is great architecture.

The "freedom tower" design just looks like rectangular skyscrapers that are melting in the heat and have warped.

[HockeyMom]

27. Freedom FRIES?

Freedom Towers. Sounds too much like the above. First thing dump that stupid name. You will have people starting to call them that.

I worked in the area when they were being built. I always thought they were very ugly. I always used to say they reminded me of 2001 - a Space Odyssey. Ironic in hindsight.

Still, I even prefer the old version to that new one which looks like a behemoth hypodermic needle.

Nice though to see The Donald getting involved in this. He has a little bit more knowledge about buildings than the city officials.

I go with the old version with 21st Century building codes and techniques.

[marions ghost]

28. I have a hard time understanding

why anyone would want to see replicas of the towers (triroc design).
To "erase" the memories by reconstructing replicas....kind of macabre IMO, but obviously some people like this idea. I see this as very conservative thinking--the idea that events such as these can be glossed over, paved over, the buildings simply reconstructed. Too much like what we are expected to do everyday in this country--forget the past, forget the truth. The Twin Towers has become a symbol for something horrible--let's find a way to honor the location, but not ACTUALLY recreate the visual symbol which is etched in our collective memory as long as any of us are alive.

To me this is like people who have their animals stuffed because they can't accept the fact that they're gone. Not to mention that the Twin Towers were not architecturally interesting--they were merely...tall. This restoration urge--to recreate the familiar, rather than to look to better solutions, is reactionary, not forward looking.

[UdoKier]

32. It's not about erasing. Nobody will forget that day.

The thing is that these buildings had become a national ICON, a MONUMENT. Maybe you simply disagree with the existence of national monuments, but that's what they were, an indelible image imprinted on our minds, and an integral part of the New York skyline.

I actually think that a lot of the DUers who are against the Triroc design feel that way for very reactionary reasons.

They resented the original design because it was function over form (anti-art)

they were symbolic of trade, commerce, hubris and US domination of world markets, and some liberals are uncomfortable with that message.

But I think they are letting ideology and personal sentiments get in the way of good sense. The Freedom Tower is still only a very vague plan. The Triroc design is COMPLETE and READY TO GO. The Triroc design would go a long way towards healing for a lot of people, and it does make for a very large memorial.

And if you are aware of the story of the designer of the original towers, Yamasaki, you would know that this is a fitting tribute to him, as he put so much of his heart and soul into this design.

[marions ghost]

33. I am aware of the story of the original designer

and I think it would be best to find another way to give him a tribute.

I don't see the original twin towers design as "anti-art." It is quite representative of architecture in the modernist tradition. Modernism is one of my favorite architectural genres. Any building is a blend of form and function, by it's very nature. I don't think this can be boiled down to a form vs function debate.

There may be some liberals who don't like the Towers original context of trade and commerce, but I doubt there are many who would say that building the towers back is more about those issues , than it is about its symbolism after 9-11. If 9-11 hadn't knocked the towers down they would've been demolished when they wore out and nobody would have objected (or mourned them beyond a few articles in the news). The Towers themselves do not rise to the level of a "monument"--I am very interested in monuments that are truly meaningful and lasting, like the Vietnam War Memorial. Building the Towers back is like building a monument to a disaster, rather than creating a true memorial.

I think that the crux of the argument here is that people have very different ideas of what constitutes "healing," esp in a collective or community sense. A "ready-to-go" simple recreation of the Twin Towers is not my idea of a monument that would inspire healing. It is more about wanting to forget, IMO.

[cobaindrain]

29. Triroc

[Warpy]

30. Neither is complete without a big, fat target on it.

Why do only arrogant, ugly, out of scale, phallic designs go up for approval? Wouldn't a building with a larger footprint and shorter stature with an enclosed entry/atrium/memorial be more appropriate to the space? It seems all these assholes want to do is raise a finger to the world.

The world, of course, will try to chop it off again.

There's no way I'd get desperate enough to work in any of those ugly buildings.

[lala_rawraw]

31. I, like most 9/11 people...

Prefer not have hubris built on a cemetery.

[Chovexani]

34. None of the above

I loved the one design that looked like a funky double helix. It was awesome. Not sure who the designer was, it was one of the many entries that ended up losing to that fugly ass Freedom Tower.

I still say they should go with my idea. Build them the way they were, but stick a gigantic statue of Kali striding the towers like the Colossus, with glowing red eyes. :evilgrin:

BTW, people saying that there should be no buildings or whatever because "remembering" is more important?

:wtf:

Clearly you aren't New Yorkers. Not a single fucking person who lived here on 9/11 will ever, in life, forget what happened that day. We can't. To suggest that rebuilding would make people behave as if it never happened is...I'm gobsmacked. And insulted.

[potatoe]

59. The "funky" era in design may be drawing to a close,

to be replaced by a re-appreciation of the gracefulness and solidity of classical lines and traditional building materials.

Thinking outside the box should be done with an open mind, open even to the possibility of developing an even deeper appreciation for the box.

[KoKo]

36. I vote for it to remain a "Hole in the Ground" to remind us we don't know

what the hell happened there, because our administration is responsible for cover up's and lies.

I don't care if Donald Trump, The Chimp, The Pope or whomever comes up with some clever design.

A bombed out vacant hole in the ground is the Memorial. To honor those who dies because of what we have yet to know or accept.

Leave it empty...

[Stinky The Clown]

42. Have you ever seen Coventry Cathederal in Coventry, England?

It was destroyed in WWII. They cleaned the loose debris from it, but allowed the ruins to remain. They then built a modern and totally antithetical new cathederal next to, and connected with, the original ruins. Having been there and walked inside the ruins, I can say it is deeply affective. There are only two memorials that I have personally experienced that affected me that way. This one and our own Vietnam memorial.

The current cathederal and memorial as it is today. The ruins, of course, are on the left.


Here's the ruins as photographed during the war, during a visit by Churchill.


And inside the ruins/memorial today. It is incredibly quiet ..... and stark. Almost as if it were bombed yesterday. No frills at all. For me, it literally raised the hairs on the back of my neck and brought tears to my eyes.

[KoKo]

47. Incredible photographs. Thanks for posting them.

I can imagine the effect it would have. Standing in the ruins but seeing what had been rebuilt but not the same..the contrast. gives me chills.

[femme.democratique]

37. Twin Towers All The Way - A Slap In The Face of Bush / Cheney

Take that biatch, we'll just rebuild them you fascist pigs!

[Placebo]

38. Rebuild The Towers!

Please!

[Selatius]

39. I wouldn't work in the towers. It'll just be attacked again.

It screams to be bombed or knocked down again if it goes up because it has become the symbol of US economic domination and power over the world.

[Stinky The Clown]

40. On balance, I'd prefer they build nothing and make a striking memorial

There were several design competition entries that called for a literal skeleton of the two original towers, but were not buildings. The ground below them would remain an open park and the skeletal facsimile of the original towers would stand, not as occupied buildings, but as massive and iconic memorials to what once was. This is the only design I could find that comes close to what I suggest, but is far, far too complicated. I would like to see nothing but four massive uprights to describe the original buildings' corners and only as much cross bracing as needed to support the four corners. It would be lit at night and serve as a beacon.



But that's likely not in the cards. So I would opt for an iconic tower - one that exceeds anything anywhere else. Yeah, I know, conspicuous consumption and large phallic symbol.

I don't like the 'Twin Towers II - Return of the Boxes' idea. The fact is, we can't go back again, so why even try.

But as much as I dislike the twin towers idea, I dislike even more the 'Freedom Tower'. A twisted phallus is the best I can come up with to describe it.

[BurtWorm]

41. None of the above.

[alcibiades_mystery]

43. In thirty years

Everybody who's screaming to "rebuild" those godawful towers will thinmk Liebeskind's design is the most beautiful and moving thing in the world.

These folks are like the early naysayers of the Vietnam Veteran's Memorial: no vision.

[DS1]

44. If Trump wins the contract, I hope it bankrupts his tacky ass

[jayctravis]

45. Neither, exactly.

I saw on Olberman where it was proposed they be rebuilt (with extra safety modifications) but only have one tower be shorter than the other by one inch for everyone who died there. Humble but unmistakeable tribute -- architecture for a reason.

Second place would be rebuild offset like in the second design. I do like the footprint memorials with the reproduction of the original arched framework and a pool or garden under a spoke-like circular trellis open to the sky.

That first design which is simply skewed rectangles looks a little comic book-ish. Their idea to mirror it making it almost invisible is interesting, but seems almost a safety hazard in itself.

[ISUGRADIA]

48. The original was bad design as it is and

the freedom tower plan has too much of a Super Friends Hall of Justice/Superman's Retreat look to it. Make the place a parK or rebuild it in a way to recreate the area before the developers and David Rockefeller stole the land for the Twin Towers architectual montrosity.

[Swamp Rat]

51. Let grass, trees, and flowers grow there

I would prefer a park with lots of shady trees and benches.

[NuttyFluffers]

54. "as a mammoth hanging gardens of babylon!"

100+ stories of gardens and trellises along transparent piping material so light and water can go through! and nothing but big angry looking redwoods would protrude in awkward angles from the edges of the building, like walls! huge topiaries several stories high will surround the buildings, and be in the shapes of angry looking men shaking their fist looking heroic. sunday, sunday, sunday! this time horticulture comes to kick ass for freedom!

sorry, i just had to make your dream more... 'american.' :7

[LuPeRcALiO]

52. bring back the Twins

They weren't exactly artistic, but at 8:54 a.m. on 9/11 they became symols and you can't "reimagine" symbols, that's just the way it is.

[Catchawave]

53. Rebuild Them !

[B Calm]

55. and who will have to pay for this....

[UdoKier]

58. I'm sure the Port Authority insured the WTC site.

NT

[orpupilofnature57]

56. I never agree with the Smug-nald, but it was an idea as much as buildings

[Roland99]

60. As I've said from the day they fell: Rebuild Them As They Were

And fuck that "Freedom Tower" name. :puke:

[bunkerbuster1]

63. how about: "They Hate Us For Our Freedoms" Tower?

Ok, sorry.

[Roland99]

64. Right next-door to the "Hard Work Cafe"?

[sweetheart]

61. the liebskin one

The old design is backward looking, and will permanently maintain some
memories, that a new design will help heal. The previous design
was very 70's and, given the world financial center, towards the
hudson, is a more modern and preferable design to the old towers when
they were standing, the liebskin design is more in keeping with the
newer buildings going up in the area.

The OLD design used to have a fairly large plaza at street level that
and this new repeat loses that space, so it will be crowded and dark
at street level...

If they build the same thing again, in GWB's america, it will only
come to symbollize how america looks backwards at its ego, empire and
past, and not forward to a new century.

America's enemies will probably knock them down again, just to
emphasize that "they meant it" with the black eye... as the war of
terorrism has only raised the ante, that america's askin for it again
in the eyes of the world... stupid... time to move on and get with the
21st century.

[donheld]

65. If we are not very careful, the winning design will be

:sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Corgigal]

67. Triroc

Like most NY'ers I hate the Twin Towers when they were being build. After awhile you got use to them and when you driving on the New Jersey turnpike you would see the Towers first and know you were almost home. While I hated the Towers when they were there, I hate it even more with them gone. Must be a NY thing.

[BAPhill]

68. I like the idea of re-building the original. EOM