People who have been abused (persecuted) turn out to be abusers or

[KlatooBNikto]

persecutors themselves. This is what psychologists and social workers say about people who abuse their children or their wives. When I think about this, a recent item caught my attention.This is the abuse to which young women from throughout Asia who have been brought in as household help in Arab countries have been put through.

That made me look into the abuse that the Palestinians have been subjected to for the past five or more decades in Israel or the abuse that Muslims have been subjected to in India for about the same length of time.

The best ( or the worst) example of this syndrome is the case of the man they call the Godfather of the Neocon movement in the U.S.,Leo Strauss.He, having escaped the clutches of the Nazis as a jew in Germany, on coming to Chicago, discovered that he liked the Nazi idea of Uber and Untermenschen and reframed that as a new political theory of the Elite and the Masses.The Elite were the only ones capable of governing because they have no illusions about the way the world works.The masses are the ones who want fun and pleasure and so are incapable of seeing greater issues.His pathology came about from seeing people like blacks, hispanics and Asians gaining ground politically after the 1964 Civil Right Act.This evil man's ideas have spawned many Rosemary's babies including Wolfowitz, Cheney, Ashcroft, Feith and others.That he forgot the lessons of his own past tells me that as an abused victim he did not intend to shy away from abusing either the Palestinians or any other Arabs. Given the right circumstances, he may very well have made common cause with the Southern racists against people like Martin Luther King.

Even as we turn away from our own racist past, it would be well to remember that the victims of the past in history may very well be the next generation of evildoers.

[leveymg]

1. Explains Ariel Sharon. But, how can one excuse W?

So, who persecuted the Bush family and their friends? Oh, yes, that's right -- they were Nazi sympathizers, weren't they?

The Bushes are Hitler's revenge. America is now being punished.

:evilgrin: :dunce: :spank: :grr: :bounce:

[KlatooBNikto]

2. You may have ignored the Great Persecutor,Momma Babs.

[leveymg]

4. The psychodynamics of an abusive mother on a male child indicate

a combination of repressed homosexuality and overweening obedience to the father and other authority figures. The end result is commonly a narcissistic character disorder, substance abuse, and reckless behaviors. Under extreme stress, this can manifest itself as schizophrenia.

Does this diagnosis remind you of someone?

http://www.trickcyclists.co.uk/pmps_gap.htm

GAP dc10

You have just reviewed a 42-year-old man with a history of poorly-controlled schizophrenia. He has had frequent admissions to hospital due to non-compliance with medication and he is also misusing alcohol intermittently.

He is currently psychotic, with evidence of thought disorder. He believes that he is hearing the voice of God and is communicating with spirits. He believes that he is being influenced by them and that they are controlling his actions. You also suspect that he is experiencing auditory hallucinations, although he denies this. He does not think that he needs to be in hospital and is also refusing to take his medication. You are concerned about his welfare, as you had spoken to his CPN earlier who said that he was voicing suicidal thoughts involving firesetting. His consultant had also said casually that if he turned up for assessment, he might need to be detained.

You believe that he should be detained under the mental health act and ask a mental health officer (MHO) to see him. The MHO sees him, but does not believe that he should be detained. She says that a belief in spirits should not mean he should be detained and that she herself believes in similar things. She does not necessarily view him as being very ill at the current time.

How do you now proceed, bearing in mind that you have grave concerns over this man's welfare and safety?
:dunce: :crazy: :bounce:

[Athame]

3. If one in four are abused

and all who are abused turn out to be abusers...that just does not hold up.

That myth does a grave disservice to those millions who have struggled to break the chain in their own lives. The fact that most (and mostly men) who are abusers tend to have been abused themselves does NOT mean that most who are abused turn out to be abusers.

The word abuse itself is a highly charged word that usually implies sexual abuse. There is a big difference between the damage done to a child by someone close and trusted (a parent, neighbor, coach, priest or minister) and that perpetrated by a hated enemy such as the Nazis. Levi Strauss could easily have come to the conclusion that power wins and that notions of human rights or other scruples are for fools. But the child abused usually equates the abuse with love and goes on to a lifetime of seeking love with all the wrong people.

I do agree that the victims of the horrors of US policy may exact their revenge or may learn to use power in the most destructive of ways, but please help stamp out the idea that all those who were abused turn out to be abusers. It is hard enough to come to terms with a difficult past without everyone thinking that if you were abused as a child you will inevitably become an abuser yourself.

[leveymg]

5. The chain of causation is not inevitable. But, it is all too often tragic

particularly when persons who have extreme anger and frustration gain power over others. These persons tend to (not necessarily will, of course) become abusive, sadistic, and instrumental in violence towards groups they view as "evil", "alien" or "inferior".

This happened with the German people, and under the misdirection of this Administration, Americans are again engaging in a pattern of atrocities against a foreign "enemy".

There's nothing inevitable about this outcome. It can be prevented if sufficient numbers of persons are willing to resist the abuse of power.

[atommom]

6. Could we also apply this logic to some of our own soldiers,

who certainly haven't been treated well by the military? Could this be a contributing factor in some of our own war crimes? (Not saying that everyone in the military is an abuser ... just wondering if the poor treatment they have received might cause some susceptible soldiers to lash out at Iraqis in unacceptable ways.)

[applegrove]

7. Not everyone who is persecuted does crappy stuff in their lives.

It depends how old you were when you were abused, how that abuse is perceived in your society and the personality of the abused.

Most people who are abused as adults, or victimized severely, may become angry or tough or many things. But they do not loose empathy. They are just traumatized and lead 'new lives' according to how they have been able to grieve and the remaining capacity to be human. If it is so painful to be reminded of things, as in someone with PTSD, you lead a much more eventful life for that alone, and require less stimulation (and it may be easier to be happy for that reason). And people may judge you for that. And they may judge you for your much sticker boundaries and penchant for law & order and justice. They are just projecting their own life onto you..and it does not apply. They would be exactly the same if they had gone through some sort of persecution.

As to kids, I do not know the details.But I have never heard that the majority abused kids grow up to be abusers. The people I have known who have been abused as kids in some way, struggle for sure, for understanding of their self & soul-care for longer periods of time than kids who have not been abused. Like they are on another schedule. The very shy are on another schedule to self actualization..but once they do get going the actualization comes pretty quick.. often it is less about the soul (perhaps they came from a repressed household and were shocked by all the emotion out there in the world) and more about superficial assertiveness - which is easier work.

For sure if you had insecurity in your childhood, it is going to be tough adjusting to a world where fewer boundary violations are the norm. But we all have work to do as we grow up. It is one long hard slog for many. Everyone is different. Most people find some sort of actuality one way or another.

There is no excuse for Leo Strauss. Of course he wanted to re-invent the world into a place where a mean and nasty governance imposed strict guidelines over all. But he should have known that it him projecting his life experience onto the world. And he should have accepted, as the world did, that the holocaust was an abomination. Instead he went and took notes on the whole dam thing. And decided that some people were more important than others.

[yodermon]

8. PLEASE MODIFY YOUR THREAD TITLE.

You have some very good observations in your post, but you are confusing a Necessary condition with a Sufficient condition. (http://www.sfu.ca/philosophy/swartz/conditions1.htm )

Your thread title should read:

"People who turn out to be abusers (or persecutors) have been abused (or persecuted) themselves"

Please take time to think about the difference between this statement and your thread title. Your title boils down to "IF you were abused, THEN you will commit abuse." This is false, and can easily be disproved by counterexample.

However, the following statement is valid and has been demonstrated over and over again to be true (ie, it has not been disproven):"If you commit abuse, THEN you must have been abused."

HAVING BEEN abused is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for later COMITTING abuse.

This is a very common confusion, and evidence of this confusion is present elsewhere in this thread.

It is very unfortunate that this confusion is so common, because understanding this issue is really and truly the crux of explaining the causality of War (and all other violence).

Let me restate this, so that my position is crystal clear:

If you commit abuse, you yourself MUST have been abused earlier.

If you HAVE BEEN abused, you will NOT NECESSARILY commit abuse later on.

IOW: All perps are victims, but not all victims become perps.


Also read "Why They Kill" by Richard Rhodes.

[TahitiNut]

10. It is not deterministic in either direction.

While it's (arguably) true that "most abusers have been abused themselves" and that "people who've been abused are far more likely to become abusers than those who've not been abused," we cannot validly state that either 'all abusers were abused' or that 'all abused become abusers.'

It's a probabilistic conclusion, not a deterministic one.

[Bluerthanblue]

9. BIG problem with this theory-

is the fact, and REALITY, that many abused women (esp. but not exclusivly) do NOT go on to BECOME abusers, but DO often seek out relationships and behaviours which continue the cycle- i'm an example of that in spades-
Your 'theory' is true, if you look at the 'subconcious' desire to seek out spouses and situations that are clearly (to everyone else) dangerous and unhealthy is a form of 'self abuse'- but many MANY 'abused' children, sexually, physically, emotionally, and victims of neglect grow up with a very DEEP aversion to inflicting harm on others, sometimes to the extent of being willing to die rather than 'become' what they were so tortured by-

Abuse, CAN be turned into a positive - If recognized, acknowledged, and viewed as a painful 'learning experience' which gives one an understanding and empathy that can only be gleaned through personal experience-

Un-acknowledged, undealtwith, and denied abuse DOES leave a person prone to inflict the same 'wrongs' done to them, or seek out the 'familiar'- a situation where being abused is the more 'comfortable'(in a twisted way) than the unknown and unfamilar feeling of being treated with kindness, equality, and respect- it takes alot of 're-framing' of ones 'self-worth' and a commitment to truly STOP the cycle, once and for all-

i DO believe *'s childhood twisted him terribly, and his drinking drugging, and arrogant narcicisim are ways he has used to 'cope' with what he's never - dealt with.

If we really want to change the 'world' we have to begin with changing ourselves- and helping others to understand why they 'do what they do'- and that only THEY can control thier present and future actions- (a formidible task in itself)