Do you think Qurans were flushed at Guantanamo?

[Jara sang]

Newsweek is backing away from it's report of interrogators flushing a copy of the Quran down a toilet due to violence and unrest the story has caused in Afghanistan. Do you think the interrogators at Gitmo flushed a copy of the Quran? I certainly think that those people are capable of doing such a thing considering the previous work they have done at Gitmo and Abu Gahraib. I would have to speculate that they have done that and far worst.

[benburch]

1. Quite likely...

We found monsters to send down there to torture those people.

[meegbear]

2. I beleive it ...

NPR reported this morning that back in 2002, gurads would take the Qurans of hunger strikers and put them on top of toilets. Flushing would be the next "logical" step.

[Tim4319]

3. Let's just say, I would not be surprised!

[kentuck]

4. They don't flush...

They shit in buckets.

[Solly Mack]

5. I wouldn't bet against it

[FloridaPat]

6. I wouldn't be suprised either. I don't understand why this one

incident, after all the other things * has done to Muslims, would start world wide riots.

[KansDem]

29. Place a crucifix in a glass of urine...

And see what happens in this country.

[Green Thumb]

39. Well

You would probably get a grant from the NEA. :)

[KansDem]

40. LOL!

But still a whole lot of grief from the Talibornagains...

[Hobarticus]

7. Yes, I do. But, it doesn't matter what I think, or if it's even true...

What matters is that Muslims believe it could have happened, that we've created such an environment and have rightly earned such a vicious reputation. True or not, to the Muslims, it IS true. This, in YOUR name, folks.

:mad:

I read an eyewitness account by another interrogator where a female interrogator smeared fake menstrual blood on a prisoner. Not too much of stretch to flush the Koran, is it? These sick fucks will do ANYTHING. They've been given a blank check from on high.

Drop Newsweek a line...they need some back-up right about now...

Tell them they're NOT the problem, here.

[e-mail]

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hobarticus]

14. Painting with an awful large brush there...I never said any such thing. nt

[Jesus Saves]

15. "Flushing a bible"

in front of a Christian? DUers aren't that personally rude, or malicious.

[LondonAmerican]

18. i'm not saying all or any duers would do it in front of a christian

since there are a lot of different opinions on du. but i have certainly heard a lot of very harsh anti-christian invective on this board.

frankly, it makes little difference to me, as i'm not a christian, but i do think it's hypocritical to be ultra-sensitive about one group of fanatics' feelings while not caring about the other's.

in my opinion, no group should be protected from blasphemy: muslims, christians, jews or any others.

[Hobarticus]

22. Do not confuse anti-Christianity with anti-zealotry...

It is as much a mistake as mistaking Bush's brand of Christianity with the real deal.

[Jesus Saves]

24. I just don't think DUers

would flush a bible. It's a pathetic thing to do. Yeah there is some anti-Christian rhetoric, and I get pissed about it. And there is a sort of of knee jerk defense many DUers put up if you criticize a Muslim or Muslim beliefs. And yes, it is hypocritical. This is due to a fear that Muslims are being singled out in our culture, so a defense is put up. It is kinda lame, and think some DUers would do well to realize what a hell hole it would be living under the thumb of these Muslim clerics. IOWs they represent the opposite of all the Western values we cherish.

But, I do know no DUer, or any other liberal, progressive, whatever, would ever flush a Bible, period.

I do know that right wingers regularly like to destroy anything that is at odds with their POV, whether it be Dixie Chix CDs or whatever. Wingers get off on that kind of malicious rude behavior. We (progressives), we don't roll like that...

[Jara sang]

25. I'm just wondering if you think the U.S. used those tactics. n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

19. We're not anti-christian at all on DU.

We're anti-zealot-assholes that seek to impose their will upon others. There's a big difference.

[DS1]

32. The only decision I'd have to make on the matter is which

one goes in first.

If flushing books is what it takes to get fundamentalists to start killing each other then flush away.

[MemphisTiger]

35. Good point

Besides, how do you flush a book exactly? My plumbing is so fragile, if I eat mexican it will backup.

[bpilgrim]

8. do you believe we are TORTURING CHILDREN in-front-of their MOTHERS

all over Iraq?


http://images.globalfreepress.com

flushing and setting books on fire, not to mention whole regions of the world, is very SMALL potatoes.

psst... pass the word

peace

[expatriot]

9. read this: there is no question

actually, read this too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3664343

[Village Idiot]

10. The same types of stories were run in 2004-5

by the Daily Mirror, UK Guardian, New York Times and Washington Post regarding sitting, standing, spitting and urinating on the Qu'ran...

Newsweek is retracting, but no one else seems compelled to do so...wonder why this is?

[movie_girl99]

12. i wouldnt put anything past them n/t

[Spazito]

13. Yes, there is no doubt in my mind this was done....

it simply follows the pattern we already know has been used at Gitmo and elsewhere.

It is interesting to try and figure out who the bush cabal is trying to convince by strong-arming Newsweek to semi-retract their report given those in the countries that are outraged will not buy the retraction and the bush cabal's base would be totally in support of the action so who are they trying to convince that this was a reporting 'error'?

[Atman]

16. The Pentagon's denial was bullshit...

"There were incidents of the Koran being moved, which annoyed some detainees" was the (paraphrased) explanation of General Meyers.

"Picked up and moved." Seriously, people rioted because you merely "picked up and moved" a Koran? Get freakin' real. Oh, and maybe in the process of picking up a Koran and moving it, we dropped it in the toilet, but hey...shit happens.

[LittleWoman]

17. I think there a interrogators at Gitmo who are capable of almost anything

including defiling the Quran, however I am skeptical of the flushing story. The reason is just a practical knowledge of plumbing. I have lived in a number of houses, both old and new and I have never had a toilet that would survive flushing a book without a massive overflow and back up problem. Putting a book down the outhouse or putting it in a bucket toilet is certainly possible. Another possibility is that a fake Quran was used in the same vein as the fake menstrual blood creating the illusion which would have the same effect as the real thing. Any of this is immoral and should not be tolerated under any circumstances and the individuals involved all the way up the chain of command should be removed and prosecuted. Like that is going to happen any time soon!

[GreenArrow]

23. simple...

tear out a few pages, flush 'em, tear out a few more, flush 'em...Don't even need to flush the whole thing.

[GreenArrow]

20. no doubt about it

Kid stuff.

[alcuno]

21. This story is over a year old.

"But the Newsweek report was only the latest in a series of allegations by detainees that go back at least to March 2004 when three British detainees were released from Guantanamo.

The three Britons alleged in a joint statement that Guantanamo guards kicked and threw around prison-issued Korans and on occasion threw them in buckets that served as toilets."

[trotsky]

27. "buckets that served as toilets"

Now it makes sense. On multiple levels - why it was possible to throw it in a "toilet" but also exactly why it would cause such a reaction. Right into human waste. Imagine what the fundies would think if somebody did that to their precious bible.

[One_Life_To_Give]

26. Would be difficult

To do it symbolically?
But in actuality the Quran would have to be quite small to fit down the drain. No larger than perhaps 3x4.

[mikehiggins]

28. I have no doubt something like that took place

After all, we've already established that "our" god is better than their "gods"

We even have a major general out there ready, willing and able to tell the world just that.

Remember that fundie question: Who would Jesus bomb?

[Kansas Wyatt]

30. Well Con News Network, CNN, has been blathering all morning...

That the story was wrong. The woman on there was trying to make a point, that it wasn't even possible to flush a book in a toilet. Jack commented that you could flush a page at a time, and he got an evil scowl for suggesting such a thing.

Truth be told, what is actually in the news, is just the tip of the iceberg and our CIA makes the former KGB look like a bunch of Boy Scouts. The United States Government has become a criminal tool for the corrupt and robber barons, and 'We The People' have been replaced by 'We The Corporations.'

[Shell Beau]

31. It wouldn't surprise me.

[leveymg]

33. Someone drank the Kool Aid. Can't blame them.

Phone rings.

Michael Isikoff: Hello?

Voice: Hi, Mike. This is Steve. I hate to do this, but about that Qoran in the shit bucket thing at Gitmo. Gotta say now, it never happened. Got that? Never, never. You never heard any such thing from me.

M.I.: But, Steve. The story already ran. I'll look like an idiot. They're gonna do a Rather on me, if I retract now.

Voice: This is the last time we can talk, Mikey. But, let me tell you this. If you don't retract they're going to fire everyone in this office . . . I mean everyone. Then some of the other people down the hall, the guys who keep the ears in their desk drawers, they're already talking about things . . . garbled . . . just take my word for it, Mike, you don't want to hear from them. . . this is a shit storm from hell, all those Muslim riots, this thing is getting out of hand . . . please, I'm beggin' you, Mike . . .

:eyes: :bounce:

[cassandra uprising]

34. My first thought when I heard this was

is this another ploy by the media to discredit the actual atrocities being performed at Gitmo. In the vein of CBS reveling the memo of Bush going AWOL fiasco. The questioning of the validity of the source of the memo equates to the discrediting of the story. The media wants the logic to read, "oh Newsweek lied, so nothing bad is really happening there."

-just a thought.

[rocktivity]

36. This is the "yawning kid" all over again

Remember all the trouble the Bush White House went through when Dave Letterman showed that video of the yawning kid? Why wouldn't they do the same to a magazine editor? Not only do I think that the Koran was desecrated as an interrogation technique, but that Newsweek has been strongarmed into changing their story!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Pithy Cherub]

37. Mark Danner painted a truly horrific picture of torture

in his new book. He describes many methods which made me immediately think someone had made Newsweek walk back from its reporting.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590171527/qid=1116255160/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-0051565-1369537

[Blue Diadem]

38. I don't doubt the story one bit. n/t

[Ganja Ninja]

41. In most instances this wouldn't apply but in this case ....

they wouldn't have said it if it weren't true. They only backed off it when the shit hit the fan.

[Tinoire]

42. Not the only incident. Newsweek can retract- won't change the known truth

I put nothing past the sadistic ubermensch creeps running this show - NOTHING.

There's no taunt or insult too low for them to stoop to.

Newsweek Got Gitmo Right
by Calgacus*

*Calgacus has been employed as a researcher in the national security field for 20 years

Contrary to White House spin, the allegations of religious desecration at Guantanamo published by Newsweek on May 9, 2005, are common among ex-prisoners and have been widely reported outside the United States. Several former detainees at the Guantanamo and Bagram prisons have reported instances of their handlers sitting or standing on the Koran, throwing or kicking it in toilets, and urinating on it. Prior to the Newsweek article, the New York Times reported a Guantanamo insider asserting that the commander of the facility was compelled by prisoner protests to address the problem and issue an apology.

One such incident (during which the Koran was allegedly thrown in a pile and stepped on) prompted a hunger strike among Guantanamo detainees in March 2002. Regarding this, the New York Times in a May 1, 2005, article interviewed a former detainee, Nasser Nijer Naser al-Mutairi, who said the protest ended with a senior officer delivering an apology to the entire camp. And the Times reports: "A former interrogator at Guantanamo, in an interview with the Times, confirmed the accounts of the hunger strikes, including the public expression of regret over the treatment of the Korans." (Neil A. Lewis and Eric Schmitt, "Inquiry Finds Abuses at Guantanamo Bay," New York Times, May 1, 2005.)

(snip)

The toilet incident was reported in the Washington Post in a 2003 interview with a former detainee from Afghanistan:

"Ehsannullah, 29, said American soldiers who initially questioned him in Kandahar before shipping him to Guantanamo hit him and taunted him by dumping the Koran in a toilet. 'It was a very bad situation for us,' said Ehsannullah, who comes from the home region of the Taliban leader, Mohammad Omar. 'We cried so much and shouted, "Please do not do that to the Holy Koran."' (Marc Kaufman and April Witt, "Out of Legal Limbo, Some Tell of Mistreatment," Washington Post, March 26, 2003.)

(snip)

The claim that U.S. troops at Bagram prison in Afghanistan urinated on the Koran was made by former detainee Mohamed Mazouz, a Moroccan, as reported in the Moroccan newspaper, La Gazette du Maroc. (Abdelhak Najib, "Les Américains pissaient sur le Coran et abusaient de nous sexuellement," April 12, 2005.) An English translation is available on the Cage Prisoners site (which describes itself as a "nonsectarian Islamic human rights Web site").

(snip)

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=5959

Additional sources from that article:

((- hunger strike and apology story over Koran ruckus: UK Guardian in 2003 (James Meek, "The People the Law Forgot" Dec. 3, 2003).

- confirmed in an interview with the Daily Mirror "My Hell in Camp X-Ray," Daily Mirror, March 12, 2004).))


- toilet incident:

"The behavior of the guards towards our religious practices as well as the Koran was also, in my view, designed to cause us as much distress as possible. They would kick the Koran, throw it into the toilet, and generally disrespect it." (Center for Constitutional Rights, Aug. 4, 2004.)


- instances of Koran desecration in an interview with Cage Prisoners.

Desecration of the Koran reported by the BBC in early May 2005. (Haroon Rashid, "Ex-Inmates Share Guantanamo Ordeal," May 2, 2005.) ))